Talk:Price system/Archive 1

Debate about the nature of this article
Ok obviously there is some disagreement on what this article should be about, so lets talk about it here. It's been stated that the term Price system is used as a definition in Economics, but it is obviously also used by the Technocracy Movement (as you can see from the links, although it would be good to have further links). Now it would seem that the Technocratic definition or viewpoint is different from the economics one. So what are we to do?

My opinion is that this article should be about the Technocracy movement’s meaning of the word, as it is a clearly defined definition commonly used by Technocrats, and as there are already many articles dealing with the economic meaning. An alternative would be to have this article as the economics meaning and have a separate article on "Technocracy's view of the Price System" or something like that. --Hibernian 17:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You don't seem to understand that the reason that the Technocracy movement uses the term is because it's the standard term in economics. The Technocracy movement is not using the term in different way than anyone else uses the term. It's not a different meaning. Working Poor 01:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, obviously the way it was wasn't going to work, so I've gone ahead and split the article. This article will be about the Economic view of the Term Price system, and the new article Technocratic views of the Price system, will be about Technocrats usage of the term. I've removed the references to Technocracy’s viewpoint thought out the article, and put the Technocrat-centred version into the new article. I suggest you work on removing the rest of the stuff written by Technocrats, as it will be of little use to the article now. --Hibernian 18:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do you think it's a different definition? I don't understand. When economists talk of "the price system" they are talking about what the Technocracy Movement is talking about too. Specifically, they are talking about the free price system where prices are determined by supply and demand. The Movement is simply criticizing it. Working Poor 19:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You make a point here Hibernian
. I have added that to the Technocracy Study Course page, in the body of the article I am developing there. Good point, but I think it is true though that the term 'Price System' was popularized by the Technocracy movement, and its context now is really there now. It was not a popular term before it was brought out and defined by Technocracy (skip sievert 02:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC))

Merge with Bid and ask
Okay technocrats -- keep an open mind on this one. I know that the term "Price System" is held close to your heart, but I think it would make considerable sense, both in the pursuit of clarity and conciseness, to have this article merged with Bid and ask. Thoughts? 154.5.41.198 07:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it. I don't understand why some people think that this should be merged with articles that describe specific types or practices within a Price System. Is it that you don't understand what Technocracy means by the term? I won't quote the full definition here, as it is already in the article, but it is meant to describe any system of economics that is more advanced that simple barter, yet not as advanced as a post-scarcity system. In other words, every major economic system past the barter stage. Perhaps I am really misunderstanding it, but this Bid and Ask article is describing a specific process of determing prices used within the wider framework of what Technocracy describes as a Price System. Keep in mind that "Price System" in this regard is not a way of describing prices, or how they are determined. There are many other ways to determine prices other than described in this article that would still fall under the definition of a "Price System". Technocracy's definition is simply talking about entire economic systems, ones that employ an intermediary medium between traded products, usually a symbol of debt. I'll agree that it is probably not the most descriptive term that could be applied to this concept, but it is what was chosen and then used for the past 70+ years. I would be very happy to see agreement between Technocracy's use of the term and some other, but as yet I don't see it. Could anyone perhaps point out to me a specific passage in this (or some other) article that clearly shows that these articles are talking about the same thing?

I also object to this merge idea, the two terms are clearly not the same thing, and I'm not even talking about the Technocratic use of the term, the economic term is equally different from "Bid and ask". The Merge tags, should be taken off at the earliest opportunity. --Hibernian 16:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I still think there is no difference. At the fundamental level, the mechanism by which any market economy is going to operate is by bid and ask. The price system is concerned with anything to do with a price, and the way those prices are formed is by bid and ask. Both articles aren't really any good, so by merging them, we have the actual mechanism of determination, within the framework of the system as a whole. As it stand, the technocratic definition is wholly lacking, and should be replaced with something like a 'price-based market economy'. I would like to see technocracy's terms be closer associated with the 'academic', economic terms of the same principle. E.g., the whole goal of technocracy can be said to establish an Economic equilibrium. 154.5.41.198 19:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I think I see the problem here. You are thinking that Price System means some sort of market-based system, right? That is what the Bid and Ask article is referring to. However, the scope of the term for Technocracy is much bigger than that. There are other ways of determining price than this, obviously. One is price fixing, by the government, or whoever. Case in point: the USSR used fixed prices (and wages), and not Bid and Ask. They however were indeed a Price System. The reason is because they used prices at all (called commodity valuation by Technocracy) and money. That is what a Price System is, one that places some sort of value, however it is derived, on trade goods (and services) as well as the intermediary medium of money as a representation of debt. There is no such thing in strictly barter economies, or in Technocracy, thus they are not Price Systems. Remember that Price System refers to any economy that has been in use for the last several thousand years, save the most primitive societies, whether they be capitalist, market-based, communist, fascist, etc. It has nothing to do with how those prices are determined, only that they exist. As it stands the definition in the article is adequate, although the Technocracy definition is more accurate, if a little harder to understand: "Any system whatsoever that uses commodity valuation (called prices in this article) and employs some form of debt token or money." Perhaps the term "commodity valuation" should be restored to the article for accuracy, and then the term linked to the same article as it is now, to "price". --Kolzene 21:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You are right, Kolzene. Although I suppose 'bid and ask' is our current price system, technocracy is referring to the broader 'price' mechanism itself (although i see that 'price mechanism' links to 'bid and ask' -- maybe that is not a correct linkage). I will admit though, this article is not really explained in clear terms. Your comment does it much more justice and I would encourage you to correct the wordiness in the opening sentence. My apologies for jumping the gun a bit. 154.5.41.198 07:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Some possible additions
Some possible additions to this article include:


 * 1. History of the Price System (its necessity, base)
 * 2. Development throughout Industrialization
 * 3. Talk about its shortcomings
 * 4. Characteristics of a Price System