Talk:Prime Minister of Belgium

Abbreviations
Are the abbreviations really necessary? I mean most people know e.g. Verhofstadt as Guy Verhofstadt, not as G.M.M.L. Verhofstadt. The same applies for most other PM's. Sijo Ripa 13:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur. --Ganchelkas 13:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity/language
Shouldn't we mention the ethnicity or the native tongue of each prime minister? Meursault2004 (talk) 00:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Great Idea! C mon (talk) 10:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Great. I'll try to do some research. I think I'll take ethnicity. Meursault2004 (talk) 10:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I just took a look at nl: and they are using language as criterion there. Meursault2004 (talk) 11:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you do with people with no clear origin? Suppose Jacques Brel would have been Prime Minister would he be Flemish or Walloon.  What about those people from Brussels (e.g. Hergé)?  Do you really think the Flemish or Walloon ethnicity is an objective characteristic of the politicians?  For example Charles Picqué?  Is he a Walloon or a Brusseler? Vb (talk) 19:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the solution is to add a reference prooving the ethnicity of the person. Without source, stating the ethnicity is simply original research at the best and POV pushing at the worst. Vb (talk) 19:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt whether it is a good idea to mention all Belgian Prime Ministers' ethnicities. Nowadays, it is quite clear whether an individual is Flemish or Walloon, but the situation was much more complex in pre-war Belgium, since the Flemish political élite used to speak French. I think it can even be considered an anachronism to make a distinction between "Flemish" and "Walloon" when talking about nineteenth century Belgium. Ivo von Rosenqvist (talk) 16:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I also think that it would be wiser to mention the mother-tongue instead of the ethnicity. Ivo von Rosenqvist (talk) 13:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Is Vanden Boeynants a Walloon? He is a Bruxellois of (at least partial) Flemish descent, not really a Walloon (not really a Fleming either, obviously). But his mother tongue was French. If we need a column indicating this, mother tongue is easier and less loaded than ethnicity, though it will still give problems, certainly with 19th century PM's. Fram (talk) 13:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

What do you with people of clear mixed ancestries such as Yves Leterme? He speaks both Dutch and French natively although perhaps he self identifies more with the Flemish than with the Walloons. Meursault2004 (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * True. But I think one could easily say that Dutch is Mr. Leterme's first language.
 * I think that it is better to mention the language than the ethnicity, regarding the complex linguistic situation of Brussels. For instance, it is not right to call Mr. Vanden Boeynants a Walloon, since he lived in Brussels. But in Mr. Vanden Boeynants' case, it is also an anachronism to distinguish between Flanders, Brussels, and Wallonia. Back when he was a Prime Minister, Belgium was not a federal state yet, and Brussels was still a part of the united Province of Brabant. Ivo von Rosenqvist (talk) 07:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Confusion over the earliest Prime Ministers
Reading the English, French and Dutch wikipedias, I've seen that there's a lot of conflicting names among the earliest prime ministers (leaders of government) listed.

This article currently lists: The article on the Dutch wikipedia says the same thing.
 * Albert Goblet d'Alviella: 26 February 1831 - 23 March 1831
 * Etienne de Sauvage: 23 March 1831 - 21 July 1831
 * Félix de Muelenaere: 24 July 1831 - 17 September 1832
 * Charles Rogier: 20 October 1832 - 4 August 1834
 * Barthélémy de Theux de Meylandt: 4 August 1834 - 18 April 1840
 * Joseph Lebeau (2nd time): 18 April 1840 - 13 April 1841 (and what about the 1st time?)

The article on the French wikipedia disagrees quite significantly:


 * Étienne de Gerlache: 26 février 1831 - 4 mars 1831
 * Joseph Lebeau: 28 mars 1831 - 21 juillet 1831
 * Félix de Muelenaere: 24 juillet 1831 - 20 octobre 1832
 * Albert Goblet d'Alviella: 20 octobre 1832 - 4 août 1834
 * Barthélémy de Theux de Meylandt: 4 août 1834 - 18 avril 1840
 * Joseph Lebeau (2e fois): 18 avril 1840 - 13 avril 1841

The "succession box" templates on the pages of the various individuals (on the English wikipedia) suggest the following:


 * Etienne Constantin de Gerlache 1831
 * Joseph Lebeau 1831
 * Felix de Muelenaere 1831-1832
 * Albert Joseph Goblet d'Alviella 1832-1834
 * Barthélémy de Theux de Meylandt 1834-1840
 * Joseph Lebeau 1840-1841

which seems to agree with the French wikipedia's list... but not with the actual text on these same pages (and not as indicated above, with the list page).

A few examples from the articles about the individuals themselves:

In the text, the article for Joseph Lebeau doesn't even mention him as the prime minister, but does say he was the "minister of foreign affairs in March 1831 during the interim regency of Érasme-Louis Surlet de Chokier"

The text for Charles Rogier says "he was Cabinet Chief of Belgium on three separate occasions first from 1832 to 1834...", while the text for Albert Joseph Goblet d'Alviella says "In the newly independent Belgium he became Minister for Foreign Affairs between 1831 and 1834." without mentioning being prime minister.

The Dutch wikipedia article for nl:Etienne de Sauvage says he was prime minister during 1831; the French article fr:Étienne de Sauvage sort of disagrees... but he hasn't even merited an article on the English wikipedia so far, apparently...

From a few external links I find:

http://www.premier.fgov.be/nl/biografie/yves-leterme lists:
 * (Regency of Surlet de Chokier)
 * Félix de Muelenaere
 * Charles Rogier
 * Barthélémy de Theux de Meylandt
 * Joseph Lebeau

http://www.famousbelgians.net/politicians.htm lists:
 * Albert Joseph, Count Goblet d'Alviella, Etienne Noel Joseph, Count de Sauvage (1831)
 * Felix Amand de Muelenare (1831-1832)
 * Albert Joseph, Count Goblet d'Alviella, Joseph Lebeau, Charles Latour Rogier (1832-1834)
 * Bartholemy Theodore de Theux (1834-1840)
 * Joseph Lebeau (1840-1841)

I don't really understand what this one means when it seems to be listing lots of people on the same line. But it does seem to cover most of the possibilities covered above, in addition to adding Joseph Lebeau in somewhere between de Muelenare and de Theux, which nothing on the wikipedias seems to have mentioned.

I understand that the office of prime minister may not have existed in the same way at this period, but nevertheless can we not find some valid sources for determining consistent statements for each Kabinetsleider / Chef du Cabinet? --David Edgar (talk) 19:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is this list split on kings?
Belgian kings play a minor role in politics - at least since WW II. It just doesn't make sense to chop the list in pieces, based on their reign. 193.190.253.146 (talk) 21:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)