Talk:Primordialism


 * This stance is, of course, the stance of most nationalists.

Need some more justification

Roadrunner 06:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

On Primordialism 'rejected'

 * This citation "Though largely rejected by most theorists of nationalism, some of its ideas have found parallels in ethnosymbolism." is highly subjective, and is clearly a provocation from theadherents of people like the noted "Özkırımlı, Umut 2000. Theories of Nationalism, London: Macmillan Press" who has made it his mission to discredit ethnosymbolism, for the ethnosymbolic answer to this subjective claim see Smith, Anthony D. The poverty of anti-nationalist modernism, I : Nations and Nationalism 9 (3) 2003, i suggest its just be removed.

Danelaw 75 (talk) 21:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I add a subject to make it clear that this discussion is separated from those 2006. I agree this statement is indeed subjective. However, it discredit the primordialism instead of ethnosymbolism, and this discredit could be justified if weasel word is removed (replace by Ernest Gellner, Invented Traditions theory and Imagined Community thoery), and provide a description of reasons on why it should be discredited. Without that, the citation needed template is good on this purpose.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 04:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

BTW I had read a book edited by Anthony D. Smith and John Hutchinson (ISBN 0-19-289260-6) containing a article defending on ethnosymbolism. I think some content may be added here (but I will try my effort on Cantonese and Chinese wiki first).--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 04:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of Zionism and Palestinian national identity
I deleted the discussion of Zionism and Palestinian national identity since the work cited represents very specific examples of the broad trend of "primordialism." It would only be appropriate to include such a discussion in the context of a longer article, incorporating many examples. In its prior form, the article gave the perception that "primordalism" is a term related specifically to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when, in reality, it is a much broader term. Jmv2120 (talk) 23:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Name of book in the reference
Dominique Jacquin-Berdal (2002) Nationalism and Ethnicity in the Horn of Africa: A Critique of the Ethnic Interpretation Edwin Mellen Press, ISBN 0773469540

--173.19.16.118 (talk) 04:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Primordialism and issues before World War II
Opening page to Primordialism: ... "Johann Gottfried Herder.[2] For Herder, the nation was synonymous with language group. In Herder's thinking, language was synonymous with thought, and as each language was learnt in community; then each community must think differently. This also suggests that the community would hold a fixed nature over time."

Contending with the forethought that communities followed local constraints; that would incur that language in itself has become centralized or compartmentalized. Avenues used in folklore themed movies are based on small communities who are predominately fearful or mistrusting of outsiders. Using this format of Primordialism, it would then be seen as common place, especially if searched for within the middle-Eastern regions/countries; namely Pakistan and surrounding countries. Family traditions and cultural stigmas in this case have in fact suffocated any evolutionary growths.

This persona is not gone or diminished; it’s simply being overlooked by the world majority. To learn more, the old adage of using one’s ears vs. the confines of one’s mind is now more impractical than ever. To some degree, using the powers of recognition involving another's needs or beliefs has become passé.

Open for debate on how much of the world still believes that an outsider is an unnecessary risk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.19.16.118 (talk) 04:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Herder and Primordialism
From opening paragraph:


 * "In Herder's thinking, language was synonymous with thought, and as each language was learnt in community, then each community must think differently. This also suggests that the community would hold a fixed nature over time."

This doesn't make much sense to me- it suggests exactly the opposite. Since language clearly changes over time, if ethnicity is a function of language, doesn't that mean ethnicity changes too? In any case, I'm fairly sure Herder didn't believe in immutability of ethnic groups. He believed that | human cultures are subject to change. If one accepts this, then it's hard to see him as a primordialist. I liked the typology of views from the Ethnicity article, but it's hard to place Herder in there. Is he some other kind of perennialist besides the ones they have listed?

Ideally I'd like to replace the Jacquin-Berdal citation with a Herder-specific source, or better yet, a specialist work on primordialism. It might also be good to add a general section that reflects the different primordialisms listed in the Ethnicity article. I wanted to get a temperature check from the other editors before making any edits, though. James Meador (talk) 01:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)