Talk:Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland

British succession
I hope that someone will explain where Prince Carl Philip and his sister are in the British line of succession, if they are,there if this is to remain in the ariticle. If it is only a reference to where he would be in Sweden if Sweden used the British system, this has already been fully dealth with earlier in the article.

Rlquall 15:45, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The reference was very real. Carl Philip and his sister are currently #234 and #235 to the British throne, Roman Catholics included (see ). I really think mentioning their presence in that list is quite irrelevant to the article, though, so I took the paragraph out. Go ahead and put it back in if you disagree, and I won't revert you. -- Jao 10:06, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

No, that's just what I was looking for, but at that distance, I'll leave it alone. The inbred nature of European royalty has always fascinated me, like how probably Queen Victoria's carrying of the gene for hemophilia led to the Tsarevitch having it, which helped to lead to the subsequent domination of the Russian court by Rasputin, which of course helped bring about the February and then October Revolutions. While it's hardly that simple, it was surely a major factor.

Rlquall 19:50, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Lead sentence
Why should the lead sentence say that "Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, Duke of Värmland is a Swedish prince"? What else would Prince Carl Philip of Sweden be but a Swedish prince? What kind of obstinance leads people to insist on such ridiculous wording?

This is a violation of a basic Wikipedia guideline in biographies, not to mention common sense. WP:Redundancy: "Keep redundancy to a minimum in the first sentence. Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is not already given by the title of the article. The title of the article need not appear verbatim in the lead." Surtsicna (talk) 16:42, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested Move 25 January 2023



 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear absence of a consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 20:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

– WP:NCROY states "If a prince(ss) holds a substantive title that is not princely (a peerage, for instance), use "Prince(ss) {first name}, {title}". Examples: Prince Andrew, Duke of York and Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex." From what I've found, the Duchies in Sweden are not substantive titles and are always appended to their princely titles. Further from what I've found, the official website of the royal house makes very little reference to the ducal titles, and never uses them in a substantive form, as seen here. Dropping the ducal titles would also make the titles much more WP:CONCISE, and perhaps more recognizable that "Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland" is a Swedish princess.
 * Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland → Prince Carl Philip of Sweden
 * Princess Sofia, Duchess of Värmland → Princess Sofia of Sweden
 * Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland → Princess Madeleine of Sweden
 * Princess Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland → Princess Estelle of Sweden
 * Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne → Prince Oscar of Sweden
 * Prince Oscar of Sweden → Prince Oscar of Sweden (disambiguation)
 * Prince Bertil, Duke of Halland → Prince Bertil of Sweden
 * Princess Lilian, Duchess of Halland → Princess Lilian of Sweden
 * Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland → Prince Daniel of Sweden

For a side note, I would recommend this move for all Swedish princes and princesses with Ducal titles. There are simply too many to list here, but there is a list here. Estar8806 (talk) 17:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: pages with content are ineligible as "new" page titles in a move request unless they, too, are proposed to be renamed. In this case Prince Oscar of Sweden → Prince Oscar of Sweden (disambiguation) had to be added to this request.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 01:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Unnecessary and questionable if they aren't substantive titles. The way the Wikipedia page for substantive titles defines them makes it sound like they are substantive titles for one and having them is useful to preempt any disambiguation situation. --Killuminator (talk) 09:38, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Killuminator A substantive title is a title where the holders name is not needed nor used with the title for distinction. If you look in the UK, official channels never refer to "Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex" or "Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester", they simply say "The Earl of Wessex" or "The Duke of Gloucester". I cannot find it being the case in Sweden, it doesn't seem as though they ever say "The Duke of Västergötland", always "Prince Daniel (of Sweden), Duke of Västergötland". And as I said, I would argue that adding the "of Sweden " designation helps with recognizability. Estar8806 (talk) 14:34, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Given how names like Carl, Oscar, Gustaf etc. have been reused over the years, the titles provide a degree of disambiguation between similarly named individuals.2601:249:9301:D570:E893:471F:37FA:20FE (talk) 04:36, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Since there have been several princes/princesses of Sweden named Carl Philip, Sofia, Madeleine and Oscar, I agree that these moves could cause confusion. I would support name changes like Prince Carl Philip of Sweden (1979) etc for all of them, skipping the ducal titles & disambiguating by the year each was born into, or married into, the royal house, which would (in the case of every royal bio) solve the problem now and for the future, world without end, amen. That smart system is used by several other language Wikis. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Based on Wikipedia:Article titles, it seems using parenthetical disambiguation is more so of a last resort, when there's no other way of disambiguation. 2601:249:9301:D570:AC5D:3290:A9CD:41BB (talk) 18:28, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That is your opinion/interpretation, whereas "Adding a disambiguating term in parentheses after the ambiguous name is Wikipedia's standard disambiguation technique when none of the other solutions lead to an optimal article title." - no optimal article title - is exactly the problem we have here and the thousands of problems we have always had with the article names for royal persons. The biggest mess of all on English Wikipedia. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:44, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.