Talk:Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1983)

Caution: wrong statements on main page
Wrong statements are added to this page repeatedly. In particular claims that Ernst August Prinz von Hannover is a prince are provable wrong but repeatedly introduced into the main article. There are no Princes of Hanover since 1919. Clumpytree (talk) 21:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Title of page
This page should not be at Ernst August (VI) of Hanover. Until his father dies, he is just Ernst August, Prince of Hanover (Ernst August Prinz von Hanover in German). Prsgodd e ss187 00:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

 * Prince Ernst August of Hanover (heir apparent) → Prince Ernst August of Hanover … Rationale: Prince Ernst August of Hanover exists as a redirect to a disambiguation page, however, I feel it would be best used for Ernst August, Prince of Hanover's son. It eliminates the heir apparent note and it also distinguishes between the head of the house versus a member of the house. —Charles 01:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Support As nominator Charles 01:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose See discussion. Caerwine Caerwhine 11:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support This name is inherently POV, and we should not use it. Septentrionalis 16:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Since Prince Ernst August of Hanover is only a redirect, I feel it should be used as the title of this page. A link to the disambiguation page could be provided at the top of the page. Charles 01:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The current title may be clunky, but until papa dies, which considering his condition could be a day or decade from now, his father, if anyone would have the best claim to the proposed place it would be moved to. Once papa dies moving the article to Prince Ernst August VI of Hanover would be appropriate along with removing the redirect from the current name. Caerwine Caerwhine 11:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ernest August is *the* Prince of Hanover, that is why the title is appended to the end of his name. EA Jr. is not The Prince of Hanover, he is a Prince of Hanover. Charles 16:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The suggested future move is inappropriate; Wikipedia is not a recognition agency for pretenders. 16:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Holy crap, this is confusing. I have no idea what you are all talking about, can we have an explanation for an Australian who has no idea about royalty jargon. Mainly, why is it POV.--liquidGhoul 03:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm supposing that calling him heir apparent somehow implies that his title has some degree of legality (as if the Prince part is somehow any less implicative). Caerwine Caerwhine 11:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've closed the debate as move. 2/3 majority is good enough, I think. Mango juice talk 19:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Proper title for the heir-apparent
As the eldest son of the Head of the House, Ernst August should correctly be styled HRH The Hereditary Prince of Hanover. This is in keeping with the style employed by his father, the current Prince, during his time as heir-apparent. Furthermore, this was the style used for the heir-apparent the last time that the house held only the designation of Prince while titles German titles were generally recognised, the period between 1692 (when it was raised to the prince-electorship), and 1714, when the Head of the House became a king. As well, this is the style used overwhelmingly by heirs-apparent to various former German houses. Someone noted, in editing the Template:Hanoverian Royal Family, that the official website of the Hanoverian Royal Family does not style him HRH The Hereditary Prince of Hanover. In fact, Ernst August is only referred to on the biographical page of his father, where he is called only by name (i.e. "Ernst August"). However, it certainly does not make sense that we should list him nakedly as "Ernst August", no title, not even a surname. If anything, it would be correct that he uses the same title that his father used as heir-apparent, and that appears across the board of German princely families as the norm for the eldest son. Therefore, Ernst August's title in the Infobox should be Hereditary Prince of Hanover, and in the Template, he should be correctly listed as HRH The Hereditary Prince of Hanover. Finally, for consistency with other heirs-apparent styled similarly, the page should be moved to Ernst August, Hereditary Prince of Hanover. GiovanniCarestini (talk) 06:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a source where he is referred to as such? Here is his biog on the family site. - dwc lr (talk) 12:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, DWC LR. I've been under the wrong impression that all of the houses distinguish the heir-apparent from the other members of the family. I guess this is only the case for some of them. Also, please disregard my suggestion of The Hereditary Duke in the Mecklenburg pages. GiovanniCarestini (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Revision needed
This article needs a POV-revision: I know that there a lot of fans of royality in Wikipedia but this article should be brought in line with the facts that apply to German law and then that Mr Prinz von Hannover Herzog zu Braunschweig und Lüneburg may hold titles that are recognised abroad ("line of succession to the British throne") Wo st 01 (talk | rate) 21:02, 26 July 2016 (UTC) Wo st 01 (talk | rate) 21:02, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Germany is a republic. This person has no official title ("Duke") as there is by law no nobility in Germany. The "Prince" is just a part of the family name. Thus the introduction shoud firstly mention the legal name Ernst August Prinz von Hannover Herzog zu Braunschweig und Lüneburg There also is no duchy of Lower Saxony. However the "title" Prince or (even worse) Duke suggests wrongly that this gentleman has an official function an the people of Lower Saxony are his subjects to be ("heir apparent").
 * 2) The article wrongly suggests that he was assigned representation duties by the state of Lower Saxony. This is just wrong. Again: he is no elected official and holds no office which he could represent. Thi one source cannot be a prove of this continiously resuming function. The event mentioned in the source was organized by an entity of private law (http://www.germany.travel/de/impressum/impressum.html).

Requested move 7 September 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 13:46, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover (born 1983) → Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1983) – All the sources given in the article call him "Ernst August", which is his name. Celia Homeford (talk) 12:44, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Wo st 01 (talk | rate) 11:25, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Support There is no reason to translate his given names just because he is a prince. We wouldn't translate the given names of other living Germans. Noel S McFerran (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 22 April 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. In this discussion, a slim majority of editors opposed moving the article, but by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.

In support of the move editors argued that the article should be moved per WP:NCROY, as a majority of reliable sources do not use the title.

Editors in opposition argue that, in English sources, a majority of sources do, and thus it should not be moved per WP:COMMONNAME.

Considering these arguments we find that the arguments in support are stronger; WP:TITLE allows for naming conventions to create exceptions to WP:COMMONNAME, and sufficient reason for ignoring the relevant naming convention was not provided.

As such, we find a rough consensus to move. I also note that the article has been stable at the proposed title for eight months; while given the traffic to this page it is unclear that whether this has established a status quo, it does mean that a no consensus result may also mean the article being moved to the proposed title. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The result of the move request was: no consensus. During the move review it was argued that the intent with WP:NCROY was not to carve out an exception to the normal practice of requiring English language sources; reviewing the discussion that resulted in the current wording revealed that this argument was correct; the intent was to require the WP:COMMONNAME, not to create any exceptions to it. As such I've struck my previous close and re-closed as "no consensus"; based on the opinion of uninvolved editors at the close review, this results in the article reverting back to Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1983). BilledMammal (talk) 04:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1983) → Ernst August von Hannover (born 1983) – In Germany titles of royals and nobles were abolished in 1919 and are not recognised today by Germany which is a republic.

The convention in WP:NCROY states: "Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use."

Therefore I do not believe Prince should be used in the title

Regarding the surname - "of Hanover" is a translation of his surname "von Hannover". Names and surnames should not be translated. We don't do it for other German surnames and I don't see why we should do it here. D1551D3N7 (talk) 17:08, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose It breaks the consistency with the articles on his siblings, namely Prince Christian of Hanover and Princess Alexandra of Hanover (born 1999). It is literally illogical to have one of the pages titled this way while the other two are titled completely differently. We also need some sort of evidence to see that "Ernst August von Hannover" is the common name for this individual. Keivan.f  Talk 17:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Current title breaks consistency with his father Ernst August von Hannover (born 1954) and consistency with all other similar descendants of formerly royal German families whose pages don't bear their defunct titles.
 * The titles of those other two pages should similarly be changed in my opinion and their current titles should have no basis in this discussion. D1551D3N7 (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Support all three sibling biographies are now at the wrong titles; they should all be moved to the correct ones. There are no princes or princesses of Hanover born after 1918. --JBL (talk) 19:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME which is all that matters. Whether you think he is a prince or not he is commonly referred to as one. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose as the opening comment says "Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles,... unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use." [my emphasis] Celia Homeford (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per a quick check on the sources in the article:
 * Ernst August (Prinz) von Hannover:
 * Prince Ernst August of Hannover:
 * Therfore, based on the sources of the article, the established name is Ernst August ([Erb-]Prinz) von Hannover. Without the majority of reliable sources using the title in pretense, we should not use it based on WP:NCROY. Furthermore in previous cases, there is a convincing rational, that the usage of pretendet titles may be problematic and should be avoided even per WP:COMMONNAME, see here and here . Additional, WP:CONSISTENT should be no argument to surpass WP:NCROY, but otherwise WP:CONSISTENT would be a good argument to change the other article titles too. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 13:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The policy is common name in English-language sources. Celia Homeford (talk) 07:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Of all sources in this article, there is only one English-language source mentioning him. That does not establish a common name. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 11:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * , etc. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I want to bring your attention to WP:DAILYMAIL and WP:GREL. Please do not include unreliable sources to increase the number of sources. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I want to bring your attention to the fact that still leaves ten English-language reliable sources using "Prince Ernst August of Hanover" compared to your none for "Ernst August von Hannover". Your argument is refuted. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Support IMHO this looks like an example of monarchist bias on Wikipedia, which some of us have been trying to eliminate, treating deposed royals as if they had not been deposed. If this is inconsistent with some of his relatives then they should be moved as well. PatGallacher (talk) 13:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Support moving all three per the reasoning of Theoreticalmawi and PatGallacher; monarchist obsessions are a problem with many such articles here. -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  16:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Alexandra is not the same as the others. She is Monegasque. Her half-brothers are German. "Monarchist obsessions" is not a valid move rationale. Celia Homeford (talk) 07:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Monegasque princess may be a separate issue. However WP:NPOV and avoiding WP:BIAS are valid arguments in move discussions. PatGallacher (talk) 17:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:NPOV says to use the common name in English-language reliable sources. DrKay (talk) 21:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Use English-language common name. DrKay (talk) 20:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Best to stick with the english common names. GoodDay (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)