Talk:Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant

Requested move
Uncle, aunt and cousin are all located at Prince/ss (name) of Belgium, as are her contemporaries (Princes Nikolai and Felix of Denmark, Princesses Catherina-Amalia and Alexia of the Netherlands, etc.) - Morhange 16:13, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 

Discussion

 * Support It is in the naming conventions for Princes and Princesses to be listed as Prince(ss) Name of Country. All entries should conform to NC. Prsgoddess187 11:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Support Support this move. Gryffindor  22:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Discision
Page moved. Ryan Norton T 06:11, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

==Parliment Chooses?== Does Parliment actually choose who'll succeed to the throne (in past, having stayed with the established line of succession). What I mean is in Belgium it's not the Monarch is dead, long live the Monarch (succession isn't automatic). Mightberight/wrong 20:07, 28 October 2005.

Duchess of Brabant
The 2001 amendment to the Belgian constitution says "The title of Duke of Brabant or of Duchess of Brabant will be worn, in future, by the Prince or the Princess, elder son or daughter of the King, and, if lacking, by the Prince or the Princess, elder son or daughter of the elder son or daughter of the King". Does this amendment mean that Princess Mathilde, Duchess of Brabant will be the last Duchess of Brabant by marriage just like Sophie of Württemberg was in the Netherlands with the title Princess of Orange? Is this going to become a trend in equal succession monarchies?--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 06:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, no, because:

i.Sophie of Württemburg was not the last 'Princess of Orange by marriage'-the present Queen Maxima of the Netherlands was before her husband's accession to the throne.

ii.If Elisabeth succeeds to the throne, and either before or after her accession marries and has as her firstborn child a boy, that child would become Duke of Brabant according to the 2001 amendment to the 1840 Law creating the titles for the Belgian Royal Family. Similarly, if Elisabeth dies before her father without having any children, her brother Prince Gabriel will automatically become Duke of Brabant according to the same law.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Sophie of Württemburg was the last wife of the prince of Orange to be titled "The Princess of Orange". Queen Maxima before this year was "Princess Máxima of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Mevrouw van Amsberg" which made her no different than her sister-in-laws. Almost every female member of the Dutch royal family are Princesses of Orange-Nassau but none since Sophie of Württemburg have been Princess of Orange by marriage; the title is now reserved for the female heirs of the reigning monarch. This change was due to gender neutral laws or equal succession of the Dutch monarchy. I think they thought calling both the female heir apparent and the wife of a male heir apparent by the same title would be disrespectful. In Belgium Princess Mathilde was the last wife of a Duke of Brabant to marry before the succession law change. So I am wondering if Elizabeth were to succeed to the throne would the wife of her son Prince Jack, Duke of Brabant be Princess Jack of Belgium instead of Duchess of Brabant. --The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 06:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that someone has jumped the gun here. The Belgian television I am listening to has just explained that the title of duchess of Brabant will be bestowed by a royal decree which has to be validated by the government. And that the date when this happens is not known. So I think the move should be reverted. Hektor (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Wrong. The title is automatically awarded. The Royal decree of 16 december 1840, as amended in 2001, says : "Le titre de Duc de Brabant ou de Duchesse de Brabant sera toujours porté, à l'avenir, par le Prince ou la Princesse, fils aîné ou fille aînée du Roi, et, à défaut, par le Prince ou la Princesse, fils aîné ou fille aînée du fils aîné ou de la fille aînée du Roi". That is "The title of Duke of Brabant or Duchess of Brabant will always be worn, in the future, by the Prince or the Princess, elder son or daughter of the King, or, if lacking, by the Prince or the Princess, elder son or daughter of the elder son or daughter of the King". This royal decree is sufficient from the second that the Sovereign has sworn his constitutional oath. (link) Mimich (talk) 11:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Although originally the titles were held by individual royal appointment, in 2001 this was changed and settled in anticipation of the upcoming birth of Philippe's eldest child (Elisabeth was to be born on October 25, 2001). The Royal decree of 16 October 2001 automatically provides the titel of Duke/Duchess of Brabant for the eldest child of the monarch or if (s)he is predeceased, for his/her eldest child. The Royal decree at the same time abolished the title count of Hainaut, which up to that time usually had been held by the Duke of Brabant's eldest son. -- fdewaele, 22 July 2013, 13:10 (CET)

Further move discussion
The title is automatically awarded. The Royal decree of 16 december 1840, as amended in 2001, says : "Le titre de Duc de Brabant ou de Duchesse de Brabant sera toujours porté, à l'avenir, par le Prince ou la Princesse, fils aîné ou fille aînée du Roi, et, à défaut, par le Prince ou la Princesse, fils aîné ou fille aînée du fils aîné ou de la fille aînée du Roi". That is "The title of Duke of Brabant or Duchess of Brabant will always be worn, in the future, by the Prince or the Princess, elder son or daughter of the King, or, if lacking, by the Prince or the Princess, elder son or daughter of the elder son or daughter of the King". This royal decree is sufficient from the second that the Sovereign has sworn his constitutional oath. (link) -- Mimich (talk) 11:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support move. Although originally the titles were held by individual royal appointment, in 2001 this was changed and settled in anticipation of the upcoming birth of Philippe's eldest child (Elisabeth was to be born on October 25, 2001). The Royal decree of 16 October 2001 (published in the Moniteur Belge of 17 October 2001) automatically provides the title of Duke/Duchess of Brabant for the eldest child of the monarch or if (s)he is predeceased, for his/her eldest child. (The Royal decree at the same time abolished the title count of Hainaut, which up to that time usually had been held by the Duke of Brabant's eldest son). For this reason I see no argument why Elisabeth shouldn't be given the same style as was her father's before he became King. -- fdewaele, 22 July 2013, 14:04 (CET)

That's a bad idea. Page history would be lost and it would seem that I was the one who created the article, which would not be fair. You should request a move and, of course, provide sources that refer to her as Duchess of Brabant - preferably official ones. Surtsicna (talk) 12:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Surtsicna. You should request a move. Keivan.f  Talk 13:39, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Move to the page "Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant" is impossible for the page yet exists. -- Mimich (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok I have seen the requested move section -- Mimich (talk) 17:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Styles and Titles
A page move has been discussed (and implemented) with regard to Princess Elisabeth's new title as Duchess of Brabant, but I don't see any references for the sequence of changes in the Titles section:
 * 11 October 2001 – 21 July 2013: Her Royal Highness Princess Elisabeth of Belgium
 * 21 July 2013 – 23 July 2013: Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Brabant
 * 23 July - present: Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Brabant

Why was there a period wherein her title was "Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant" that then two days later became "The Duchess of Brabant"? The latter form is the title that now appears in the Belgian Royal Family template box as well. If she went through these two stages, can we get an explanation in the "Duchess of Brabant" section explaining the process and a reference? Or should we remove one of these two titles? Metheglyn (talk) 04:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC) if in THE VERY UNLIKELY EVENT the duchy of brabant become a country as a monarchy and someone so ahead with the idea of a 14 year old girl who is also heir to belguim to be there first monarch then yes  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:40:C001:8713:8876:8F3B:AC90:E57B (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * This is wrong, it should be


 * 23 July - present: Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium.

Talk page not moved
The page Princess Elisabeth of Belgium now redirects to the new Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant page, but this talk page was not migrated with it. There is now a separate talk page for Talk:Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant. Is there way to merge these two pages? Metheglyn (talk) 07:19, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Now the problem is solved. Talk:Princess Elisabeth of Belgium redirects to Talk:Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant. Keivan.f  Talk 08:16, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Princess Elisabeth of Belgium.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Isabel de Brabante.jpg