Talk:Princess Sophia of the United Kingdom/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: J Milburn (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Generally looking good.


 * Lead
 * I'm not keen on opening with the one line paragraph.
 * I modeled it after other royal articles, like George II of Great Britain and Caroline of Ansbach  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Early life
 * "Prince August of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg" If he's a prince, he's surely worth a redlink?
 * Added redlink  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You mention the number of brothers and sisters in the lead, but don't in the early life section
 * Added  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Princess Sophia's first appearance in public was at a commemoration for George Frideric Handel at Westminster Abbey.[10]" Date?
 * Added  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "A.W. Purdue" Who is this? A historian?
 * Clarified  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The painting implies she had a strong relationship with her sisters? Any sources for this?
 * I go into this a little in the adulthood section, particularly Charlotte of Wales' views on this. If this were going to FA I would add more.  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Princess Sophia's first appearance in public was at a commemoration for George Frideric Handel at Westminster Abbey.[10]" Do we have a date for this?
 * ) Yep, added  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Adulthood
 * "According to Christopher Hibbert, Sophia in her youth was believed to be a "delightful though moody girl, pretty, delicate and passionate."" By "youth", do you mean childhood, or young adulthood? Also, the sentence is a little clunky
 * Yes, I believe Hibbert is referring to her young adulthood, since he immediately discusses her pregnancy right after. Clarified  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "The question of matrimony was rarely raised, as Queen Charlotte feared the subject, something which had always discomforted the King despite his promise, would push him back into insanity." Odd sentence- I'm not sure it makes sense
 * Tweaked a little  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "For entertainment, the queen read sermons to them while the princesses did embroidery. " At the same time?
 * Haven't found anything directly saying they did this at the same time, so I tweaked sentence a little. Although I'm sure they did (the queen read to them frequently, and I'm sure the girls didn't just sit there)  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "The princesses were not without suitors, but other than the Princess Royal, most of the various men's efforts were stopped by Queen Charlotte." At the moment, this sentence says that the Princess Royal was the only man whose efforts were not stopped.
 * Fixed :)  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "at these attempts to become less dependent" Rephrase?
 * Done  R uby2010   comment!  21:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Illegitimate child
 * You link equerry for the first time after the term has already been used several times
 * Linked equerry in lead  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "as 'the purple light of love'" Why inverted commas, rather than speech marks?
 * Added quotation marks  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Weymouth is a dablink
 * Fixed  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "by Garth or her brother the Duke" Garth or Garth's brother?
 * I think I clarified this (removed a comma)  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Historians further write that the child, baptised Thomas Garth like his father, was raised by his father in Weymouth where his mother would visit him occasionally. In 1828, the son would try to blackmail the royal family with certain incriminating documents from his father about his supposed parents' relationship, though this ended in failure. " How certain are these details? It feels like we move from "Sophia may have had a child" to "This is who the child was, and what happened". Is the general consensus that there was a child?
 * The subject is odd. Most historians I've found believe there was a child, but among others there is still some opposition to this theory. I didn't want to take a side (although it seems to me that there was a child). Do you think I should just go all the way and write there indeed was a child?  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The "reference" you use to discuss "the age and physical appearance of Thomas Garth" could be reformatted as:  You would also need to add a notes section using  . This would let you format your references consistently and keep your details out from your references- something to consider. For an example, see how I used it in Fomitiporia ellipsoidea.
 * Done  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Sophia was a favourite of her niece, Princess Charlotte of Wales, as the young princess liked her gentle character and had a certain fascination for the gossip surrounding Sophia's past. Charlotte detested her other aunts, and once wrote, "I can hardly believe [Sophia] belongs to them- so wholly different is she in thoughts, opinions, matters. Her nobleness and rectitude of mind renders her no favourite here. The constant scenes of intrigue, of tracasseries, she can but ill support."[33]" Would this perhaps not belong in the later life section? It's not clear what it's got to do with the son
 * Moved  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Later life
 * You don't mention that Princess Victoria is the young Queen Victoria, or who Conroy is, despite the fact you do in the lead. These are helpful details for those who may not know the period
 * Done  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "The Duchess of Kent despised Sophia, who often dined with the household." Kent often died, or Sophia did?
 * Reworded  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Princess Victoria was aware her aunt was a spy, effectively alienating the two." So she wasn't a spy the entire time she lived with Victoria?
 * Clarified  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Death
 * "After her death, it was discovered that Conroy had squandered most of her money, and that the princess had virtually no estate to leave.[42] After her death" repetition
 * Fixed  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Other considerations
 * File:Princess Sophia portrait.jpg is problematic; it appears to have been copied from findagrave, and while the painting is almost certainly PD, I see no reason to believe that the photo is. I think it's going to need to be deleted.
 * Removed from article (I'll find another to use)  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's only just occurred to me that this image could be salvaged- I've made a request (also, I've cropped down the new image so that only the painting itself is shown; photographs of the context, including the frame, would be copyrightable, and so would have to be treated as non-free, unless the photographer explicitly released them. Annoying, I know.) J Milburn (talk) 00:36, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I also added some more copyright info to the file (Royal Collection link, date it was painted etc). I think it's worth saving. Thanks for your help on it!  R uby2010   comment!  00:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Saved! J Milburn (talk) 13:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * File:Princess Sophia (1777-1848).jpg Template:Information would be a nice addition, as would a source for the image file. Also, an approximate date for the caption of the image in the article?
 * Added caption. I found some great source info I'll add to image file  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Could you perhaps capitalise the book titles? Some are in sentence case
 * Done  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The sources seem appropriately scholarly

It's generally looking great, not much work is be needed before it is ready for promotion. J Milburn (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, so it's clear, I did a little light copyediting. J Milburn (talk) 16:09, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for the speedy review. I wrote the article on a bit of a whim, so I apologize for the prose issues.  R uby2010   comment!  22:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and if you can't tell, I'm American. I tried to write the article using British English, but if there are any places I missed, could you correct them? I'm a tad unfamiliar with some of the spellings. Thanks,  R uby2010   comment!  22:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Just thought I'd let you know that in pursuit of a DYK (5x), I've made some significant edits to the article. Some of them stemmed directly from your great suggestions (like expanding the lead's first paragraph).  R uby2010   comment!  06:21, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Second look through

 * "rumours spread that Sophia became pregnant by Thomas Garth, an equerry of her father's, and gave birth to an illegitimate son in the summer of 1800. Other gossip declared the child was the product of rape by her elder brother the Duke of Cumberland," In the prose, you imply that this is not gossip, but the opinion of later historians
 * I attempted to address this.  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "As with her elder sisters, Lady Charlotte Finch served as Sophia's governess." This is not the best phrase (and I realise I touched it myself- sorry)
 * Reworded  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Unlike the strict education and discipline received by her brothers, the well-loved Lady Finch taught the princesses lessons in English, French, music, art, and geography, and allowed them to play sports and games with their brothers." Again, sorry, the structure of this sentence isn't great
 * Reworded  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Queen Charlotte feared the subject, something which had always discomforted the King, would push him back into insanity." This still doesn't make sense
 * Sorry, what doesn't make sense? The queen feared the subject of matrimony would push her husband back into madness. My apologies if I'm missing something obvious!  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you're right, it's fine. Sorry. I was reading it as "the queen was scared of the subject, and this bothered the king", with the last part not making sense. J Milburn (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "On one occasion Sophia wrote their days were so "deadly dull... I wished myself a kangaroo."[17]" That's an absolutely wonderful little factoid!
 * It's currently one of the suggested hooks at DYK :)  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "A grateful Sophia once jokingly wrote her brother, "I wonder you do not vote for putting us in a sack and drowning us in the Thames."[22]" Not sure that makes sense. How about "A grateful Sophia once jokingly wrote to her brother, saying "I wonder you do not vote for putting us in a sack and drowning us in the Thames."[22]"
 * Changed  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Are we certain that the person Thomas Garth existed? At the moment, it's not clear whether he existed and it was just not certain whether he was Sophia's daughter, or whether he himself may have just been a rumour
 * I haven't read anything that said he didn't exist. However, it remains divided whether he was Sophia's child, or who his father actually was. I tried to indicate this by adding in words like apparently  and supposed  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "In his book Royal Babylon: the Alarming History of European Royalty, author Karl Shaw writes of the possibility the Duke raped his sister, citing evidence from Charles Greville's diaries as well as other factors." This will need a reference in addition to the note- the reference in the note is not enough.
 * Done  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * In the lead, you imply that Conroy bullied Sophia, but in the body, this is only one possible explanation for their relationship
 * Fixed  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "After having been blind for over ten years,[48] At her residence at Vicarage Place, Kensington, Princess Sophia became ill on the morning of 27 May 1848, and was visited by her sister Mary, sister-in-law Queen Adelaide, and nephew-in-law Albert, Prince Consort." This needs some copyediting
 * Done  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Check the capitalisation on ref 54
 * Done  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

This is looking great. J Milburn (talk) 14:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe I have addressed all of your concerns. Thank you very much for giving it another thorough look over. It's much appreciated!  R uby2010   comment!  16:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm happy now to promote the article. The research, writing and referencing are all very good, and this will make a great GA. This is an article which could potentially fare well at FAC. This is a shorter biography, but as an unmarried fifth daughter, that's perhaps not surprising. However, it makes it all the more important that all of the sources have been checked; the book in the "further reading" section would be worth trying to get hold of, and a quick Googling threw up this. I don't know who Michael A. Beatty is, but the book does include a few details not in the article (for example, the fact that Garth claimed to be the father of the child). The second thing you'd need to do after delving deep into the sources is get yourself a copyeditor- the prose perhaps still isn't perfect in places, and I can't pretend to be an expert on stellar prose anyway. This is a topic which may interest - if you ask him nicely, he may be able to give you a hand. Peer review can also be a useful tool, and I'm always available on my talk page, in case I can be of any further help. In any case, I am happy to promote at this time. Good work! J Milburn (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. You are correct about the further reading book. Until I can get my paws on it, I'll abstain from expanding the article further. I think Flora Fraser is generally considered the authority on the princesses, so I'd like to read what she has to say before (if) this goes to FAC. Thanks again,  R uby2010   comment!  17:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)