Talk:Princeton station (NJ Transit)

NRHP listing
A number of changes have been regarding status of 1918 station, as to whether it is not a contributing property to the HistDist or only listed as part of the ThematicNom.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Princeton_(NJT_station)&diff=next&oldid=547215683
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Princeton_(NJT_station)&diff=next&oldid=650870356
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Princeton_(NJT_station)&diff=prev&oldid=667014164
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Princeton_(NJT_station)&diff=next&oldid=667036068
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Princeton_(NJT_station)&diff=next&oldid=680553515

refs:
 * NRHP nomination Princeton Historic District May 5, 1975
 * NRHP nomination:Operating Passenger Railroad Stations (In NJ) May 8, 1984
 * NJHPO listing of Princeton Station

Djflem (talk) 12:35, 16 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I corrected the url for NRHP nomination Princeton Historic District above, and fixed a typo. Generic1139 (talk) 17:23, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

NRHP details
Using the refs provided above, here are some details:

NJ documentation that infers the station is part of the NRHP Princeton Historic District:
 * In the Thematic Nomination Operating Passenger Railroad Stations TR written May 1981 and entered by NPS on Sep 29, 1984, Princeton Station is marked as (D)+ "Stations with this symbol are already on the State and National Registers, (D) as part of district."
 * In the Minutes of the New Jersey State Review Board For Historic Sites, part of the Thematic Nomination (PDF page 55): The following 58 railroad stations (as presented in the nomination) were PASSED. Each station was voted on individually unless already on the National Register (+). Normal procedure was altered to expedite voting. The nominating and seconding of each individual property was suspended, and only opposing votes recorded. Princeton station is marked with a +, therefore it was not voted on as it was already on the National Register.
 * In the nomination pdf file for Princeton Historic District, attached to the end, is a New Jersey Transit Railroad Station Survey from the N.J. Office of Cultural and Environmental Services, stating that the station is part of the NR Princeton H.D. 6/28/75 (survey 1-6 page 1).
 * The pdf file of photos for the Princeton Historic District includes two photos of the Princeton Station, marked as Thematic Nomination of Operating Passenger RR Stations in New Jersey and dated 1978.

NJ documentation that infers the station is not part of the HD, but is standalone:
 * The NJHPO list of for Mercer County gives say the Princeton Railroad station is on the NR 9/29/1984 date but no reference number, and the comment (Thematic Nomination of Operating Passenger Railroad Stations)
 * The listing does not appear to infer that the station is a standalone, and states specifically it's part of the TN
 * Summary of Nomination Information: Princeton RR Station A 2000 survey for NJ Office of Cultural and Environmental Services (which reiterates info take from the original 1981 survey) which states that is became NRHP ThemeNom listing 9/29/1984.
 * New Jersey Historic Sites Council. "Draft Resolution #2012" A 2012 in which NJ allows change to historic property, stating it was listed NJRHP on 3/17/1984 making no mention of Princeton HD or NRHP status.
 * Djflem (talk) 23:27, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * By stand alone, is this case, I meant not part of an HD. And hopefully we'll get some additional on this, but I don't think simply being on the thematic nomination list actually gets you on the NRHP.  Only those properties with the "Entered in the National Register" stamp are actually added to the register. Generic1139 (talk) 01:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

NPS documentation
 * In a five page set of continuation sheets at the end of the Thematic Nomination, the NPS lists 42 stations, 40 were entered on 6/22/84, two on 9/29/84. None of these are the Princeton Station.  NJ originally presented a list of 58 stations for nomination, of which 11 were marked as already on the NRHP.  The five stations on the original list that weren't marked as entered on the list and weren't noted as part of an HD are:
 * Glen Ridge (Montclair) article says its part of Glen Ridge Historic District, the district nomination form has the train survey attached.
 * Glen Ridge (Boonton) I'm not sure which one this might be.
 * Once part of New York and Greenwood Lake Railway (1878–1943), later NJT's Boonton Line as Benson Street (as opposed to above mentioned Montclair Branch]]Djflem (talk) 21:02, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Ho-Ho-Kus (NJT station) article doesn't mention NRHP
 * Mountain Lakes (NJT station) part of Mountain Lakes Historic District. The station is mentioned in the nomination, which wasn't written in 2005.
 * Westfield (NJT station) article doesn't mention NRHP

Based on the description of the boundaries of the Princeton Historic District, the location of the 1918 station is about 300 feet south of the boundary line, though at that point, the line is a projection. The nomination form references a map, which is not provided in the scan. Unless the station is included as a non-contiguous section of the HD, it doesn't seem within the HD as defined in 1975.

Unfortunately, based on the NPS documentation alone (not including the state documentation), the train station doesn't seem to be part of an HD, nor is it individually listed. Does inclusion on the thematic nomination by the state add the station to the list? There are a few other stations, as listed above, that were on the state list but were not in an HD and not marked as listed by NPS, and aren't marked as included in the wikipedia articles.

Is this station on the NRHP as part of an HD, or on the list via (an un-blessed by NPS) mention on the Thematic Nomination, or not on the NRHP?

Comments welcome. Generic1139 (talk) 22:01, 16 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Have you attempted to get or view the unscanned map? Also, have you inquired about the existence of further additional documentation filings for the HD listing?  A charitable reading of the boundary description of the HD could include the station (as being adjacent to its putative southern boundary).  It certainly seems like all relevant authorities act as if it's HD-listed, even if the close reading of the bounds appears to exclude it.  Magic ♪piano 12:18, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No on the unscanned map, though I've done a lot of searching online for it - ditto looking for expansions of the HD. I even looked to see if any of the named contributing properties were on the outside but touching the described boundary, but didn't find a good example.  It would be easier to just accept the station as being part of the the HD if the adjacent but even closer to the line McCarter Theatre (1930) was in the HD, but no luck there either. Generic1139 (talk) 14:25, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * My question about the map was more along the lines of "Have you asked the NJ SHPO for access to it?" (assuming, of course, you're willing to travel to wherever they have those sorts of things in NJ). I figured you'd done some diligence online...  Magic ♪piano 15:17, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I haven't. Review of the documentation requires a trip to Trenton, which isn't in the offing for the near future.  Do we have any friends in NJ? Generic1139 (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

NJRHP and NRHP Thematic Nomination list
To clarify, 53 stations were nominated (others considered in previous SHPO meetings were vetted and not considered sufficiently significant to be included). The (+) previously listed notation in the nom doesn't appear to be completely correct. The list is ordered by SHPO determination of merit; numbering and (*) are my addition.Djflem (talk) 10:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

NRHP Note?
Thanks very much for trying to pin down these confusing details. Previous versions of the article's Infobox NRHP said:

| added = September 29, 1984

| added = September 29, 1984

The Notes section of the article is currently empty. Has the September 29, 1984 date become irrelevant or unreliable? Based on your current understanding, could we restore an appropriate one- or two-sentence Note to summarize the uncertain situation, for casual readers of the article? —Patrug (talk) 21:52, 8 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Good point, we need to clean this up somehow. I think, given the state of the currently available information, that these statements are true:
 * The property was determined to be eligible for the national register.
 * The property was viewed as being a part of a Historic District in the Thematic Nomination, though based on the description of the Princeton HD boundaries, it isn't.
 * Because it was viewed as already part of the HD, it wasn't individually added to the register.


 * Someone at the NJ SHPO or NPS needs to clean up the paperwork. In the meantime, though, as the NPS paperwork for the TR does show the station as part of the HD, we'll document it like that, and leave either a note, or something in the article.  I'll add that later today. Generic1139 (talk) 15:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ Generic1139 (talk) 18:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Allendale station (NJT) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)