Talk:Principality of Hungary/Archive 1

Fork from History of Hungary
Plese use the sandbox. hungarians has not a state before 955 when the Oto defeated them at the Lechfeld river. Its the speculative theory --Samofi (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * it was the tribal union of the few magyar tribes and they were semi-nomadic tribes. hungarian principality is the new term, no historical proofs that the principality existed. --Samofi (talk) 14:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * the is a lot of unsourced facts and lot of original research --Samofi (talk) 14:36, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hungary is the oldest state? There is no continuity between present hungary and principality of hungary. in the 1526-1867 hungarian kingdom has not own independent statehood. it was under turks and under habsburgs. where was the border of the principality? any historical matherial about principality from the 9th century (annals, chroniles..)? its the nonsense, its just a falsification of history from some nationalistic historians...--Samofi (talk) 14:49, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

The map in the article is unscholar. Northern parts of present slovakia were joined to hungarian kingdom in 12th century. In Divinka at the northern slovakia existed on the break of 12/13 century a independent castle of local slavic feudal (Moravčík J.: DIVINKA. Najstaršie osídlenie obce od praveku po včasný stredovek. 2000). --Samofi (talk) 14:58, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If you feel a separate article is justified, please propose it at talk:history of Hungary. &mdash; RHaworth 15:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Samofi you are a Slovak nationalist user who hates Hungarian pages.Fakirbakir (talk) 15:03, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry about it above. I did not want to offend anybody. However,
 * There is a source what states principality of Hungary was established in the 9th century.
 * It was a tribal confederation, a "semi -nomad", "pagan" principality.
 * Yes Hungary is one of the oldest states in Europe this is fact.
 * The territory of Principality of Hungary was much bigger than territory of Kingdom of Hungary because of the "Gyepűelve" March (territory) (Moravia, Austria to Enns)
 * The map can demonstrate the situation in Central Europe, It is a good map. Great Moravia was annihilated in 902 and ceased to exist after that. There was no separate entity. (the latter Tercia pars Regni is a different thing) Fakirbakir (talk) 16:05, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Request
This article would be about Principality of Hungary. Prior to the Christian Kingdom of Hungary, there was a long period when Hungary existed as a tribal confederation, a pagan Principality. There are lots of source about it. We are talking about more than 100 years. This principality was the hinterland of Hungarian raids and was the home of 7 Hungarian tribes (or 7 Hungarian and 3 Kabar tribes). There is no valid reason to keep this page redirected.I would like to improve this article. Fakirbakir (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

About my editing. I was upset when I saw User Samofi's contributions, because he did the same thing at page of Hungarian invasions of Europe (He wanted a speedy deletion there). I know I did not have to roll back his editing, however I could provide sources about the 'problematic' statements. But This is not an unwanted fork.Fakirbakir (talk) 20:12, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You can find the debate here: Talk:History of HungaryFakirbakir (talk) 09:06, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I am going to unprotect this page now as there is some consensus at Talk:History of Hungary that an article here is warranted. If Samofi or anyone else still disagree they are welcome to list the future article at WP:AfD. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:57, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Principality vs Grand Principality
I was wondering whether this article should be renamed to "Grand Principality of Hungary". For example, the Hungarian word "Nagyfejedelemség" usually translates to "Grand Principality", not simply to "Principality". This would also be consistent with the articles about the leaders of Hungarians at that time. The article about Árpád, for example, calls him the "Grand Prince of the Hungarians". So we might want to rename this article "Grand Principality" (for example, by moving the contents of this article to a new one called "Grand Principality of Hungary" and redirecting this article to that one). What do you think about that? -- Koertefa (talk) 11:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I see this problem. I never found this expression 'Grand Principality of Hungary' in English sources, they use only the 'Principality of Hungary' form. We need to decide whether the Hungarian form is the proper one because it is the 'official' Hungarian name for this state or we should use the English form because of the English usage.Fakirbakir (talk) 12:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't have an opinion on the renaming, however, if you decide to do so then don't copy and paste the content. Simply "Move" the article (drop-down menu between the "watch" star and the Search box). HairyWombat 17:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, HairyWombat, for pointing that out. Regarding the renaming: I’m also in two minds, but I have a slight preference for renaming the article to "Grand Principality". However, the current variant is also fine with me, I just thought that the other one would be more precise. Koertefa (talk) 02:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Why to delete
Reasons for a deltion are next. I have found a 2 serious books about Hungarian history which says nothing about principality. 1. (http://books.google.com/books?id=y0g4YEp7ZrsC&lpg=PP1&dq=hungary%20history&hl=sk&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q&f=false) In the article, you can read, its written that the founder of state is Istvan, before that the Hungarians were not united (he was elected as a king in 25 Dec. 1000/ 1 Jan. 1001) 2. (http://books.google.com/books?id=SKwmGQCT0MAC&lpg=PP1&dq=hungary%20history&hl=sk&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false) again nothing about Hungarian principality in 9th century, its wirtten that in the 896 when the Hungarian, Kabar and Turkic semi-nomadic people came to the Carpathian basin: "it was a no reason to believe that Hungarians considered a Carpahian basin as a their new home" Authors are Hungarian historians and sources are reliable. There is a nothing about "Principality of Hungary" But its next books, I can a find later, whose says nothing about Hungarian principality. It exist only one book which used this therm for this early period (http://books.google.com/books?id=Bz7aKaJNfokC&lpg=PA19&dq=%22Principality%20of%20Hungary%22&hl=sk&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q=%22Principality%20of%20Hungary%22&f=false). This historian has a specialization about modern history espetialy about Stalinism. Information in the book is: "Magyar clans from Asia came in the late 9th century and established a principality of Hungary." This therm was for a first time used in the 1993. There are no concrete years and nothing more about this "principality". On the other hand the seriouse books says nothing about existention of Principality of Hungary. They says that Hungarian, Kabar and Turkic tribes were a semi-nomadic and its no reason to believe that Hungarians considered a carpathian basin as their final home. This user makes a lot of such edits without consensus, for exmaple in Royal Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Royal_Hungary&action=history) deleted and redirected article without discussion at talk page. Royal Hungary was a province of Habsburg Empire and this user tries to make a Separe Article about continuity of Hungarian Kingdom, which was divided in 16th century between Ottoman empire, Habsburg empire and Transylvania. He made a article Hungarian invasions of Europe (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Royal+Hungary%22&btnG=Vyh%C4%BEad%C3%A1vanie+kn%C3%ADh&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=sk#sclient=psy&hl=sk&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%22Hungarian+invasions+of+Europe%22&pbx=1&oq=%22Hungarian+invasions+of+Europe%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=161150l166399l0l166520l29l23l0l0l0l6l209l3040l7.13.2l22l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=144a467f858ec791&biw=1246&bih=645) and this therm does not exist. It were a raids, as it is a written in the next 2 books above (usualy the moss-trooping raids). User is not open for discussion and he is a problematic and calls other users nationalists who hates Hungarians. --Samofi (talk) 18:51, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you please explain me why you repeat yourself here about me? Everybody can read your complains at the Administrators'_noticeboard.
 * The pagan principality transformed into Christian realm. Please, read (for instance), the page of History of Hungary. It is quite obvious.Fakirbakir (talk) 20:29, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not create that page (page of Hungarian invasions of Europe). I just tried to improve it.Fakirbakir (talk) 20:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

AfD link
Please refer to: Article deletion log, September 5, 2011 – Principality of Hungary for more information regarding this article's nomination for deletion. Thank you. Northamerica1000 (talk) 00:30, 6 September 2011 (UTC)