Talk:Principality of Minerva

From VfD:

Undocumented group. Redundant article content. The only evidence of the "principality" is 1 "under construction" web page. The valid article content already exists at Republic of Minerva, which also already includes reference to the "principality". --Gene_poole 01:11, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Republic of Minerva. Actually, I'll go ahead and do that.   &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 01:46, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Agree with redirecting. Since George Cruickshank, the emperor of Atlantium, a "micronation" that exists largely as a website, is trying to delete the entry for a rival "micronation" that exists largely as a website... does that make this a declaration of war? Nagurer 04:21, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Disregard: Invalid sockpuppet vote.--Gene_poole 04:25, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Nice try, George. However, I imagine the rest of us remain unconvinced. :-) The User Formerly Known As 82.6.10.139 21:05, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC) (PS, merge/redirect)
 * "The rest of you" obviously need to learn how to read a little page known as "user contributions" in that case.--Gene_poole 23:32, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep redirect to Republic of Minerva. Dunc_Harris|&#9786; 09:56, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Anon IP User:153.9.253.10 restored page, so I restored vfd notice. Redirect when comes off the top of vfd. Dunc_Harris|&#9786; 19:47, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with the redirect. Note, this isn't a micronation thing, this is related to the attempt to create an actual sovereign nation in international waters, and one that sparked action from a nation to stop it, rather than someone declaring their bedroom has seceded. Average Earthman 22:48, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Republic of Minerva, and it looks as if there's a little material that might be merged too. Andrewa 13:09, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep and do not ridirect. The Prinicpality, a historical entity, is different from the Republic and it looks to me like each deserves it's own article.
 * that post was 14:10, 1 Sep 2004 User:SeekingOne; to that user, please sign your posts with ~ . The "Prinicpality" as you call it is related to the Republic, and is already mentioned there.  Your grammar is as bad as your spelling, btw :). Dunc_Harris|&#9786; 17:02, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Oops... sorry! :-)  --SeekingOne 13:02, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * As the author of the original Republic of Minerva Wikipedia article, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that some spurious group is trying to resurrect this micronation. I would request that the original article Republic of Minerva is maintained with the footnote about the Prinicpality, because that is all the Principality is - a footnote in another story. OT, I'd also like to write an article on Oliver if anyone can supply some detailed info. - User:Patronus
 * Comment: I seriously doubt that the "Principality" is a group - unless it's a group of 1. As I stated in the deletion notice, it belongs as a footnote within the Republic of Minerva article - unless some 3rd party documentation comes to hand to prove otherwise.--Gene_poole 23:52, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep or Merge As the author of the existing Principality page, I feel it is important to clarify that from my discussions with inidviduals (yes, more than one) representing the Principality as it is today, they are quite serious about the project, and have had discussion with venture investment groups, representatives from the Kingdom of Tonga, and with Michael Oliver himself - founder of the former Republic. It is my suggestion that the page remain, afterall, this is an open encyclopedia, the goal of which is to document all types of knowledge, and the Principality is a legitimate subject. However, may I suggest that if it is removed, it should be more than simply a footnote on the Republic's page. I should also note that the webpage that is up currently is not simply one under construction page. It's quite interesting, actually.
 * Comment: I am a Political Science student who studied "micronations" for a thesis project last semester. I studied some of the small nations in the Lesser Antilles in the Caribbean, and also came into contact with the Sealand group, as well as Michael Oliver and by connection the folks with the Principality. So, what you mean by "third party documentation," I don't exactly know, but there is more than one person involved in all of this.

end moved discussion

Third party sources
Could you please sign your posting! If you conducted interviews with Oliver and those allegedly associated with the new "principality", it would be great if you could you provide them as references/footnotes to the article. From everything I've heard Oliver is totally elusive, so if you've spoken with him that would represent quite an informational coup.--Gene_poole 00:40, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Principality of Minerva
I suggest that, instead of redirecting, there should be a separate page for "Principality of Minerva", with appropriate cross-links.

Contrary to some of the assumptions made in this discusion, the "government in exile" is a very real group, consisting of several people who seem to be quite knowledgeable, serious, and purposeful -- neither a mere footnote to history nor a "spurious group" at all.

These people held a number of discussions with Michael Oliver, who is now in his eighties. According to them, at least, Oliver wants nothing further to do with the project and does not want to be identified with it in any way, but otherwise has no objection to their claim nor to their plans.

I, too, thought the "monarchy" thing seemed a bit silly, until it was explained that some of the diplomatic and political efforts they plan are simplified and expedited by having a permanent head of state - one who is not subject to internal political changes (altho very much subject to removal for cause). They view the change of governmental form and adoption of a new Constitution, as well as the transition from Michael Oliver and Bud Davis (the elected President, whom Oliver "fired"), as a "peaceful revolution". Continuity is important to preserve the original territorial claim, which relied upon the legal concept of terra nullius (land owned by no one).

Calvin (who will not disclose his last name) and his associates are proceeding very deliberately, albeit cautiously, with a number of steps to pursue the goal of actually establishing the new nation, via appropriate means -- mostly political and judicial, as well as entrepeneurial (and, as far as I can tell, not military).

The group is currently located in the vicinity of Charleston, SC. Calvin, a fairly young man (early twenties), is American born, and intends to retain his American citizenship. He is currently doing post-graduate studies in pursuit of a J.D. degree, majoring in international law.

Incidentally, the monarchy is NOT at all hereditary. The deputy regent, Prince James, is unrelated, and none of Calvin's own family members holds office in either the government or the Parliament.

The regime is rather new, celebrating its first anniversary last October, I believe. Their website is much improved, now, and there is a separate one for the "liberation movement" - which now has at least one college chapter, with another forming in my area (Long Island, NY).

Now, who am I? And how do I know all this? Well, I have a radio weekly radio show ("Long Island Liberty, with BAM", Tuesday afternoons on WUSB 90.1 FM Stony Brook, NY). While searching for new material, and recalling the Minerva incidents from the past, I did a Google search and discovered the new group's existence. They responded favorably to my email request for an interview.

On December 7th (an appropriate day, if you think about Tonga's invasions!), I interviewed HRH Prince Calvin, the "Sovereign Prince" of Minerva on the air, for over an hour. I also had two lengthy telephone chats with him, prior to the show, as well as some detailed email with him and two other staff members.

I feel that I should, however, apologize for two things:

1. As a "newbie", I'm sure that my edits to   the "Republic of Minerva" web page were not up to the highest standards of Wikipedia. (I took to heart both the encouragement given in your intro pages and the expectation that  experienced hands would watch, intervene, and  correct as neccessary.

2. Perhaps I should have, somehow, disclosed my rather tenuous "connection" and the fact that I am not quite a "disinterested party". (But I didn't see any way to do so.)

In fact, I have become very supportive of their effort. Also, my family has just decide to make a contribution to the relief effort for tsunami victims in nearby nations, via Minerva's new fund.

There is somewhat more to be said about all these subjects (including some of the new information now on the minervanet.org website). Since I doubt that I would have the time to do the editing myself in the near future, (and also since I am not really sure how detailed or succinct the ideal definition page should be,) I'd be more than willing share the additional background information I have collected on this and some related sujects.

Sincerely, -/bam/- EMAIL: bam@tripodics.com

P.S. "BAM" is actually my initials, but my Wikipedia name is "Tripodics" -- which is defined as "the study and programming of automata (tripods)." (See http://tripodics.com/about/tripodics.html for an explanation of the origins of that word.)