Talk:Prison/Archive 1

Prison Rape
Why is prison rape the first on the see also list ? 110.20.59.19 (talk) 22:37, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Levels of security
How is the classification of high, medium and minimum security prison established? What are the differences and what type of criminals go to them? Just a question i was trying to find answers to... --IfTrueElseFalse (talk) 08:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Voting rights
Aren't voting also restricted for Prisoners in the US in several states? Which would be unique in any democratic Country.
 * No it wouldn't..? If you have a source saying prisoners in some parts of the US *are* allowed to vote, do share it. Leushenko (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Home Office Report
There is a newer version of the Home Office Report with all the figures. The one linked to here is the 4th ed. There is a 5th ed. I don't know if that is the latest, but at least it is newer than this one. I don't know how to update the references and upload the new pdf. ass.

When I got a cop to arrest him, he said I attacked him. Fortunately, the woman was still there (she also wanted him arrested for a similar assault). The cop looked at the three of us, she and I had injuries and he weighed as much as both of us put together, and refused to arrest me, but when I went to court, summoned as a witness, the 300-pound ex-marine thug told the baliff that I had assaulted him, and I was arrested in court and jailed! Everyone was confused, because it was so strange, and jail was a profoundly educational experience.

When I went before the judge, I was released, and at least one other prisoner was CLEARLY innocent, and even the judge said so, but prisoners in some jails, at least are treated VERY badly. I'm writing from a small southern city with a HUGE jail they're paid by the state to keep full up, and 7 people have been found hanging by their necks, some, probably lynched. (A cop here told me they were going to hang a man in his cell to prevent the embarassment of a trial, since there were videotapes of the cops having shot one of his hostages -- basically turned her into hamburger.) 2 or 3 days after a cop told me they were going to kill him in his cell, the newspapers said he was "found" hanging in his cell (North of town).

Accusation NOT = guilt. Duhhh. Why have courts, or even laws? Why not just go back to vigilante "justice" and lynchings?


 * 152.9.34.72: Hello, regarding your "Jail" entry. I completely agree with you, regarding the difference between the two terms. They should be distinguished by different entries. But what you've been writing so far will just get deleted as a rant and serve no purpose. Please write something better, a real entry for Jail, and will be become a valuable and instructive article for everyone. -- Decumanus 20:57, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Since there is a considerable overlap in the terms, I would leave them in one section, with explanations as to the differences between prisons, penitentiaries, jails, etc. Note that jails are both used for those not convicted (or not even charged) and those convicted and serving short sentences. StuRat 02:55, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Not forgoetting gaol, which is used mostly in the UK and Australia as another name for a prison. -- Longhair | Talk 03:08, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

slang terms
The first paragraph lists a number of slang terms for prison. I think this is valuable information and should be expanded. How about a section listing all the slang terms for prison? -- Spleeman 06:31, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

History of prisons
How about a history on imprisonment, and how widely it was used throughout written history. - Jerryseinfeld 14:28, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Crime and punishment is a wide, very controversial and deeply politicised area, and so too are discussions of prisons, prison systems, the concepts and practices of imprisonment; and the sanction of custody set against other non-custodial sanctions and against the capital sanction, a death sentence. Some of these issues are discussed in the by country descriptions, below.

Actually, none of these issues are discussed in the article, or elsewhere, as far as I can tell. History, theory, and studies on the effectiveness of imprisonment, probation, and psychiatric care as punishments are touched on in criminal justice from 10,000 feet. Sounds like a collaboration of the week possibility. Tempshill 18:35, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm thinking of adding a link to stanford prison experiment to the 'see also' section, but I'm hesitating because of the validity of the experiment, i.e. subjects were not professional guards or real criminals.--Janarius 03:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC) DO IT MAKE THE LINK!!!!!


 * Generally, it's considered that the Zimbardo prison experiment is a great look into psychology, but has little to offer specifically to prisons. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.185.10.3 (talk) 17:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Incidentally, there is no history of imprisonment section, nor is it adequately covered anywhere else. This certainly should be remedied.

In the History section: Prisons can be stressful and depressing being away from their family, unless they killed them. Anyone have ideas what this is supposed to mean? OttoMäkelä (talk) 13:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Military Prisons
Thinking about starting a separate article for military prison. Opinions? --Jpbrenna 00:19, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Yup Absolutely should be done. Plenty for an article; worth starting a stub and seeing where it gets to. --Tagishsimon (talk)

---

Anarchist Black Cross link
I'm just interested as to why the link to ABC was removed... it looks as it belongs there Beta m (talk)

Political Prison
I'm not trying to sound biased here or anything, but shouldn't the listing of Guantanamo Bay be moved to Military Prison? It fits the definition given by this article much better. The installation is maintained by the US Military as a base for "unlawful combatants", just as the definition under the Military Prison subheading says.

neutrality dispute 03 May 2005
I would like the statement "70% of imprisonments are drug related" proven with factual evidence from official sources such as BJS reports or UCR data.


 * This is not a neutrality dispute, this is a factual inquiry. If you want to dispute this fact, use  not  . I removed both your tag and the figure, as a little research seems to show that this figure is inflated if it is taken to mean all federal, state, and local prisoners at any given time, as it would seem.  The true figure seems closer to a third but I don't yet have a source that I am confident in to cite an alternate figure. NTK 05:24, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Visiting
Is there a name for the type of phone that inmates use to talk to visitors? --VolatileChemical 00:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, cell phone.

jail Vs prison
As an employee of a county jail I can tell you that there is a real difference between jail and prison. A jail is simply where accused persons are brought after arrest to await trial or arraignment on their charges. Most jails have a significant daily turnover of inmates. Prison is far more longterm. Prison is the facility for housing convicted persons after their trials. Todays prison systems are so overcrowded that they often release offenders after only a percentage of their origional sentence has been served. Regardless, neither is a place you want to go!

Prison Population
this section also contains the sentence
 * New Zealand has the second highest prison population per capita amongst developed countries, with 169 prisoners per 100,000.

The remark has no source, and appears out of context. suggests that it is only true if one regards Chile, Singapore, Israel, and most of central and eastern Europe and many others not to be developed. While I guess this is another discussion, the factoid appears unhelpful without substantiation. 125.236.184.109 00:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

this section contains the sentence
 * No data is available for North Korea(followed by two external links).

As the page is not about korea and only 3 countries are referenced at all - surely it would be better to represent the lack of info by ommiting the sentence. Or perhaps there is a more political agenda for its inclusion. DavidP 13:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree, take it out. StuRat

The incarceration statistics for US prisoners statistics needs to reflect the most recent historical data from the Bureau of Justice..accordingly,

"On December 31, 2004 --

-- 2,135,901 prisoners were held in Federal or State prisons or in local jails -- an increase of 2.6% from yearend 2003, less than the average annual growth of 3.4% since yearend 1995.

-- there were an estimated 486 prison inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents -- up from 411 at yearend 1995. -- the number of women under the jurisdiction of State or Federal prison authorities increased 4.0% from yearend 2003, reaching 104,848 and the number of men rose 1.8%, totaling 1,391,781." Source: BOJ, "Summary of Findings,Prison Statistics", Bureau of Justice Statistics www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/'' MGSBoca 13:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Breakouts
Lots of famous prison breakouts need to be put in. - Anonymus
 * ... that is probalby Cowra breakout in Australia (1944) Scriberius 11:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Could somebody establish an article, please (see de:Gefängnisausbruch)? Scriberius 11:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Cultural References
The Green Mile? This is more about capital punishment than prison life, if it WERE warranted, we might also include "DEAD MAN WALKING", Also, It looks like someone just slipped it in there rather crudely, who had no clue how to edit. I'm Removing. If you want to put it back, holler.

prisons as for profit work camps
It seems to me vital to include mention that many prisons (private as well as state run) exist in order to make a profit on the labour prisoners.


 * Any discussion should also mention how having a prison system that makes money instead of costing money makes it in the interest of the government to imprison as many people as possible, instead of as few as possible. StuRat 22:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Also, if that is said then providing statisics as to the staggering overrepresentation of black people and native people among the prison population would be important.  27 February 2006

I have to agree with what has been said above.. This Wiki page is missing some very important points that should be included. Firstly it does need to point out that a large % of people in prisons are minorities. This is more of a point about poverty not racism, clearly poorer people with less opportunity and choices in life are going to stand a greater chance of turning to crime. A great example of this is the US system which currently has over 2 million people in their prisons and jails, of which over 1 million are black.

The other point is regards the prisons being profitable to tax payers. I do not think this is the case its likely that all prisons cost tax payers money,. However it can be argued that the country is saving money by having them in prison rather than on the streets costing even more for police / law enforcement. While it may not be profitable to tax payers, use of prison labour is very useful to businesses, who can use cheap labour in the local area rather than having to import from countries such as china.

While this only relates to US prisons and should be gone into in greater detail on the US prison page, It should be mentioned here as well, as the US will not be the only country with this form of policy.

http://www.nationalcia.org/video/Cutting_low.wmv (This is a promotional video by the National Correctional Industry Association for the US. It includes how it can be profitable for businesses to invest in local correctional facilities. )

Other Countries "Realistic" Figures as Well?
According to the last statistics by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (October 2005, "Prisoners in 2004), the "rate of incarceration in prison at yearend 2004 was 486 sentenced inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents". However, if one adds the jail population to that number one comes up with the more realistic figure of 724 inmates per 100,000 residents.

The chart lists 724 inmates per 100,000 residents, not 486. Do the numbers for the other countries on the list also factor the jail population into the general resident population?
 * MSTCrow 08:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Women in Prison (in the United States)
This section is written with poor grammar and zero citations to the "facts" it lists. If I was more knowledgeable on the subject I'd do it myself, but hopefully there can be some discussion on the matter. Such questions could include:

1. Why only in the US? If the article has a section dedicated to this (and I believe it should), should it not also mention other countries?

2. Are there any positives? It seems the article currently is heavily slanted towards villifying men on most accounts with regard to female prisoners.

And so on.


 * I too am not knowledgeable about the prison system - but this section reads like someone's blog. I'm going to ask an administrator's opinion on deleting the whole section. Simesa 02:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Deleted.Timothy Usher 05:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It definitely wasn't up to scratch, but it did raise some valid points. I'd like to see a section on the same topic done properly with citations. Women in prisons do indeed face unique challenges and I think deserve some sort of treatment within this article. &middot; Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 13:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

wtf?
From the Article: "Vietnam has about 50 prisons. The majority of prisoners are Vietnamese."

why is this even in here?

"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."-Charles de Gaulle

Hmm.Foster2008 01:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

POV?
In the Australia section, "These are extremely unpopular to most hippies". Is this sarcastic POV, or do you actually still call people hippies in all seriousness Down Under? --Illusio80 15:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV - Section 4: Criminal justice goals of the prison system
"''This is founded on the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" philosophy."

"By subjecting prisoners to harsh conditions, authorities hope to convince them to avoid future criminal behavior and to exemplify for others the rewards for avoiding such behavior; that is, the fear of punishment will win over whatever pleasure the illegal activity might bring. The deterrence model frequently goes far beyond "an eye for an eye", exacting a more severe punishment than would seem to be indicated by the crime."

"Executions, particularly gruesome ones (such as hanging or beheading), often for petty offenses, are further examples of attempts at deterrence.'' " "Are criminals inherently prone to illegal behaviour, or does crime stem from a failure of social policy?"

These are only a few examples of what is on section 4. These statements looks more like theories than facts to me... This section is in no way neutral, especially the reccuring "critics say that...". And, of course, the critics cited are all negative.

The only thing that I clearly understood there is that the author of this section is against the penitential system.

funding
we sould add how the prisons get their money to take care of the inmates 137.87.66.6 18:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Prison Management
Needs better description of prison design and philosophy. ie. Linear and Podular/Direct Supervision. And it could touch base on Inmate Behavioral Management.

I would suggest a separate article be composed on the subject of Objective Jail Classification as well. It would serve to give the readers an insight to prison workings.

NICIC website link if anyone would like to look into it.

--Epizoan 08:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Prison Design
This entire section seems to apply only to modern prisons, and specifically to Western prisons. Certainly not 'all' prisons have education departments, or refer to units as 'cell's.

Discrepancy in Statistics
There seems to be some problems with the Statistics section, notably in the text it says the US prison population is 486 in every 100,000 people, while in the table at the bottom of the section it says the USA imprisons 740 people for every 100,000 in the populace. Which is correct?

Unclear or POV
In the section describing the reasons for a higher prison population in developed countries, the "gap between the rich and poor" is cited as one. I for one don't see the connection between higher prison population and a larger (albeit higher for all groups) distribution of income. Unless someone can explain it a bit more, I'm going to remove the statement because it seems out of place. Seriously, there is a larger income distribution in developed countries but I don't understand how that contributes to a higher prison population, or is just me? If you can elaborate or cite some source on that, please re-insert the phrase. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.176.209.119 (talk) 00:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Turkish Prisons
Hi

The writing in this section was just awful, with run-ons and sentence fragments. Also no citations. I fixed what I could, but left it tagged.

69.88.88.11 20:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Types - psychiatric
I edited this section. I need to throw in a reference, but it was written in such an incorrect way. Psychiatry isn't used as a punishment, as it seemed to imply. In addition, involuntary commitment is never used to send people to a prison. This is a temporary hold to force a diagnosis or treatment.

Instead, psychiatric units are often housed in prisons. Also, as already written in that section, some psych hospitals to house inmates - either due to sentencing or prison behaviour.

Remember, psychiatry is a tool for diagnosis & treatment, although maybe a crappy one. It definitely isn't a penalty or punishment, though. Chupper (talk) 16:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Prisons
If anyone is interested, I have proposed a new Wikiproject concerning prisons here.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Expand history
The history section seems very brief. I don't know enough on the history to expand it, but, for example, Fleet_Prison mentions that prisoners had to pay for their keep in the prison and often had to beg for money to do so. Was this common? I'd guess so... This article fails to mention this. What happened if you didn't pay for your keep? Perhaps someone with some knowledge of the subject can expand the history a bit! EAi (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Rehabilitation
The rehabilitation section references two seperate journal articles where the authors performed a meta-analysis comparing residential to non-residential sentecning and the rate of re-incarceration. The reference is circulaar in the references section and does not provide enough information to preform a journal search. Can anyone extract exactly what two articles are referred to here? The two references are to "Smith et al" and "Andrews and Bonta" Brugger1982 (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Prison configuration should be explained
Floor plans could also be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.118.180.138 (talk) 18:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Jail
"jail" and "prison" are synonymous outside the United States and different inside. There were a section in the jail article that related more to the longer-term incarceration that Americans call "prison", which I have therefore moved here: "Resocialization". It doesn't appear very well written, so feel free to redo or delete; but in any case please don't put it back at jail, as it definitely doesn't belong there. jnestorius(talk) 22:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Microchip implant (human)
Could we add a link to Microchip implant (human) and RFID? Is there any talk about starting trial use of RFID by implanting the chips in all prisoners to keep track of them? Stars4change (talk) 06:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Jail / Gaol / Prison
The separate Gaol, Jail, and Prison articles have been merged in a manner I consider very unsatisfactory. Also, I don't interpret the preceding AfD discussion as having approved the current structure.

Formerly, there were three three articles:
 * "prison" was the generic article
 * "jail" was about the U.S. meaning of jail, with a hatlink to "prison" for the meaning elsewhere.
 * "gaol" was about the spelling "gaol".

Subsequently:
 * "gaol" was redirected to "jail" per WP:NAD, but not merged. The information in "gaol" is thus lost. Not that the information was of high quality, but at least a link to gaol would have been nice, if not a transwiki.
 * "jail" was merged into Prison, and a redirect-to-section was added, with a section-hatnote linking to Jail (disambiguation). Now, that's really not good enough.
 * Someone outside the U.S. who types/wikilinks "jail" when they mean "prison" is going to be mighty confused when they get to this section, and the hatnote will not speak to that confusion.
 * The "Jails in the United States" section replaces the previous "Incarceration by country > United States" section, which linked to Incarceration in the United States. Obviously, "Incarceration in the United States" is a subtopic of "Prison" and a parent topic of "Jails in the United States", so this organisation is upside-down.

I propose the following modifications:
 * Move Prison to Jails in the United States
 * Summarize Jails in the United States in Incarceration in the United States
 * Summarize Incarceration in the United States in Prison
 * Move Jail (disambiguation) to Jail, and replace the link to Jail with a link to Jails in the United States

jnestorius(talk) 19:34, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Support - A very nice analysis! The above works for me. --JeffJ (talk) 19:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Merge with Incarceration
I've just noticed that Incarceration is a separate article; Imprisonment redirects there. I suspect this is to conform to the US perspective, where "Incarceration" is the parent and "Prison" and "Jail" are the children. Since that is no longer the case, I think having separate "Prison" and "Incarceration" articles is unnecessary duplication. There could still be a distinction of articles (e.g. based on Penology vs incarceration statistics vs. prison architecture/design) but I don't think the current names are the basis to do it. To start with I suggest merging the two articles (at either name) and then later work out a logical basis for refactoring out child articles. jnestorius(talk) 20:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is appropriate. There are types of incarceration that are not prison (not just in the US, but throughout the world; for example, in the PRC there are about 8 detention/incarceration systems, and that's a conservative count). If the two articles are redundant, that can be rectified by editing Incarceration to have a more worldwide perspective, rather than by merging it here. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 21:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "There are types of incarceration that are not prison": please expand on this. Are you making a distinction based on the nature of the people detained, the place of detention, or the treatment to which detainees are subject, or simply the name of the system?  Clearly, both articles are currently in a rudimentary state, with a lot of overlap.  The opening sentence of the Incarceration article is "Incarceration is the detention of a person in gaol [sic] or prison." The opening section of the Prison article lists many different types: convicted criminals, suspects awaiting trial, internees, prisoners of war.  Currently both articles use the map File:Prisoner population rate UN HDR 2007 2008.PNG.  I don't think adding more material to either article will solve the problem of the current overlap of content. jnestorius(talk) 22:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not an expert on incarceration around the world, I just have the PRC example I mentioned above. As described at Re-education through labor (most of which is from pp. 15–23 of the Laogai Research Handbook), there there are numerous forms of incarceration/detention and not all are called, or considered, prisons.
 * There is also a simpler grammatical difference... a prison is a physical place, incarceration is a concept. There's another way in which the two articles could, and should, diverge. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 23:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Reading the article you linked to, it seems to me that a "Re-education Through Labor camp" is a type of labor camp, which is a type of prison. Different countries may subdivide their penal system in different ways, and use the label "prison" for only part of that; but in a global article, there is no way to find the intersection of what "prison" means in each country.  We've already had trouble with the jail-prison distinction, which is US specific.  The Panopticon and its descendants are perhaps the default concept of what a physical prison looks like, and maybe we need an article that deals specifically with buildings of that type; but the current Prison article looks nothing like that article. The "grammatical difference" is that incarceration is what is done and a prison is where it is done; but the current prison article is not about the where, it's also about the what and the why. jnestorius(talk) 00:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, RTL is one of eight (or more) types of incarceration. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 12:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I heard you the first time. RTL is one of n types of incarceration and RTL camps are one of m types of prison. jnestorius(talk) 16:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You heard me the first time, but you don't seem to have understood what I was trying to say. Again, in this example, there are numerous forms of incarceration that are not called prison or considered prison by the international community. RTL is just one of them, so even if you think RTL is a kind of prison (which is is, for all intents and purposes) that still doesn't address the issue of all the others. And this is only one example, from one country. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Currently the start of the Prison article is, more or less, "A prison is a place where people are incarcerated", and the opening of Incarceration is, more or less "Incarceration is putting people in prison". If the US distinguishes "prison" from "jail" or PRC distinguishes prison from RTL, that's not relevant in a global-level article. If the "international community" distinguishes "prison" from some other forms of incarceration, then please fix the tow articles to make that clear; e.g.:
 * "A prison is a place where a specific type of incarceration takes place, whose defining characteristics, according to the UN Penology Institute are: ...."
 * "Incarceration is the detaining of people in such places as a prison, a foo detention centre, or a bar incarceration place."
 * jnestorius(talk) 21:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the kind of distinction that I think needs to be made in the articles. The Prison article should be more about the physical places; the Incarceration one should be more about the concept, with things like incarceration rates, reasons for incarceration, history, etc. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 14:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The First Prisons?
One of the first prisons must have been the Amsterdam Rasphuis, opened in 1596, the 16th century therefore and not the 19th. The idea that 300 years later, the notion of prisons was 'revolutionary' (even in Britain ;-) ) strikes me as unlikely. Dutchdavey (talk) 13:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

A Reminder on Talk Page Policy
--JeffJ (talk) 00:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Must be removed
"There were prisons used for detention in Jerusalem in Old Testament times, and the Bible details the imprisonment of Joseph in Egypt."

This extremely POV. The "Bible" is not a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.197.157.122 (talk) 02:45, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Does it really make sense to refer to Jerusalem as (Arabic) Quds in a sentence referring to the Old Testament?

"Levels of Security" template changed
The complaint regarding the section "Levels of Security" was that the only information it contained was a description of the security classes of the United States Bureau of Prisons and was therefore not an adequate world-view of the subject. I have changed the template to include a summary of classifications in general and a section describing the classification system in England and Wales. I have also changed the headers to allow for more countries to be represented in the list should they be added. If changes are unsatisfactory, feel free to modify/remove. Cwill151 (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Americanisation/Americanization of article
Although attempts have been made to give this article an international perspective, it is undoubtedly American in nature. Terms such as 'barbed tape', 'jail','corrections officer', 'prison ministry' and 'juvenile' are associated with the United States prison system, and do not necessarily reflect international usage. Too many images and too much space is also given to the US system. If a list and descriptions of categories of security levels are being included for the US and 'England' (Which should be 'England and Wales'), then why not add every other country in the world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.102.198 (talk) 17:06, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * By international usage, the useful definition would be international Anglophone usage. Terms used in non-English languages wouldn't be reflected on here.
 * Also as per Wikipedia's MOS each article chooses a national variety of English to follow.
 * However in terms of describing prison practices and classification practices we should try to describe every country.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 19:55, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Not entirely American. Canada uses terms indentical or very similar to those used in the article. --JeffJ (talk) 20:20, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

"Prison politics"
It would be an improvement if this article could be expanded by providing information from the perspective of the inmate or "lifer" convict, some information on what they go through day to day for instance, what they do to survive, prisoner etiquette, or in their words prison politics, if this could be properly sourced somehow of course.. I'm not sure if any scholarly studies or papers have been written on prison 'lifestyles' and such, but television series' such as National Geographic's Lockdown and MSNBC's Lockup would be great sources to cite for this information (at least for American prisons anyway), as well as many non-fiction books written by ex-cons. Although there are plenty of articles on the individual prisons themselves I've noticed Wikipedia is lacking in general on information surrounding prison life, prison gangs, etc. which isn't really surprising as this tends to be a very 'cagey' subject, (pardon the pun) :P -- &oelig; &trade; 04:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

ജ്ഞാനം, പരിശുദ്ധല്‍മവ്, സ്വര്‍ഗ്ഗങ്ങള്‍, സ്വര്‍ഗ്ഗാധി സ്വര്‍ഗ്ഗങ്ങള്‍. Wisdom - Holy Spirit and Heavens   www.wisdomflowers.weebly.com  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.199.88.170 (talk) 20:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, but I'd be wary of some of the sources that you TV documentary sources that you cite and I'm not sure how they would be used in this article. There's bound to be a fair amount of academic sources on the subject of the prison experience - certainly I've read a few on the prisoners' sex lives. Presumaing that a range of authoritative material on general living conditions and attitudes could be sourced, this could then be used to structure any account and the interpolation of individual memoirs as illustrative of points established empirically could then be used. Might call for a different article, however. I'd propose creating one called Prisoners or such like.FiachraByrne 21:07, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

“Misdemeanants”
Persons convicted of misdemeanors (those punishable by fines and incarceration not more than 2 years/24 months) are NOT held in prison, but in county jails. The article should reflect this.174.25.42.71 (talk) 18:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)A REDDSON Correct, jail does direct here. But there is a US section, there should be a section on Jails. A jail is a diffrent penal institution.
 * That's according to US language usage. It may differ in other countries. Also remember that "jail" redirects to prison, so the article "prison" covers US prisons and US jails to a degree. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Staffed by Deputy Sheriff's (usually) Less than one year commitment Pre trial Local juristiction (not state) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.119.68 (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Food
There's really no mention of the cafeteria in facilities, nor is there information on prison food. I would like to add the link to prison food, or a small section with a but I don't know where it would fit. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure where it would fit either but I think any such information on the actual experience of being a prisoner would be useful. It's difficult to do otherwise but I think it would be preferable not to just have an institutional account but something, at least, of an insider's account. It's telling that there's no individual article for "prisoner" on wikipedia.FiachraByrne 21:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I am astonished that there is no article called prisoner. I will start it immediately. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay. I've requested that Prison be moved over redirect to make way for it. I am starting the draft while waiting. It is located here. It should turn out to be a good portal to other sorts of prisoners. Please feel free to modify it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Done! Prisoner is now an article. Thanks for pointing it out. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not encouraging you to start another page but similarly there's no article for psychiatric/mental health patient. FiachraByrne 01:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * An entry on food could get a bit convoluted if we try to address specifics since food will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction or even from jail to jail. In the Ontario provincial system, some facilities use "cook-chill" meals pre-prepared at one of the facilities. These are basically TV-dinners. Other facilities prepare food from scratch. And one jail used to have meals delivered from the restaurant across the street. One facility serves brunch on the weekends instead of a separate breakfast and lunch. And so on... --JeffJ (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

prisons holding pre trial inmates?
Uh, this doesn't apply in Florida at least...I've never heard of STATE prisons holding pre-trial inmates. KING OF WIKIPEDIA - GRIM LITTLEZ (talk) 04:35, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Fortunately, this is not an article about Florida state prisons, but a global article encompassing the world-view of prisons and, by extension, penitentiaries, correctional facilities, remand centres, detention centres, gaols, and jails. For a more specific article on the American penal system see Incarceration in the United States or even more specifically Florida Department of Corrections. --JeffJ (talk) 19:48, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * LOL come on obviously I know this isn't about Florida, however there is no source for the following: while prisons are state or federal facilities housing those awaiting trial on the state or federal level and convicted felons serving a term of more than one year. Um, for state I have never heard of this. Any source that indicates this? If there are then we should re-write the sentences to state that some prisons can and do house pre-trial inmates. My main concern is whether state does, as I know BOP does. KING OF WIKIPEDIA - GRIM LITTLEZ (talk) 19:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that in New Jersey, at least one county jail holds pre-trial federal inmates under contract with the federal government. I believe there are actually two.  I don't have a source handy so I can't put in the article; the reason I know about the one is the ultimate in "original research":  I've been there myself.  (Not as an inmate.)  Neutron (talk) 20:00, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me add that I am not trying to argue this. I just feel that a re-write to be specific would suffice as I stated, plus a source. Yes, county jails can hold pre-trial fed inmates as did Pinellas County Jail with Buju Banton. However, people get too confused when it comes to incarceration. KING OF WIKIPEDIA - GRIM LITTLEZ (talk) 21:17, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Be Bold and make the edits. --JeffJ (talk) 15:47, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Imprisonment, Economic Inequality, and Poverty in America
Either the section "Population Statistics" (7) or "United States" (5.3.1) could be improved by adding a brief note on economic inequality. While these sections mention racial disparities within the U.S. prison population, there is no mention of America's incarceration population over-representing the nation’s economically destitute. Nevertheless, there is a large body of sociological literature addressing this issue. Popular books on this subject published in the last ten years include: Bruce Western’s “Punishment and Inequality in America” (2006), John Irwin’s “The Warehouse Prison: Disposal of the New Dangerous Class” (2005), Todd Clear’s “Imprisoning Communities: How Mass Incarceration Makes Disadvantaged Neighborhoods Worse” (2007), Jeffery Reiman and Paul Leighton’s “The Rich Get Richer and the Poor Get Prison: Ideology, Class, and Criminal Justice” (2010), and Loïc Wacquant’s “Punishing the Poor: The Neoliberal Government of Social Insecurity” (2009), all of which include an explicit discussion of economic status and class in addition to a conversation on race.

This page should mention how many prisoners and jail inmates in America lived below the federal poverty line at the time of their most recent arrest and/or parole violation. In “Punishing the Poor” (2009:98-9) Wacquant notes that two thirds of jail inmates live below “half of the federal poverty line.” However, this statistic does not include those in state and federal prisons, which accounts for more than half of the total incarceration population in America. I have spent a reasonable amount of time hunting for the number of state and federal prisoners who lived bellow the poverty line before their current imprisonment but I have not located such a statistic. It is possible that there exist third-party analyses of the Survey of Inmates in State Correctional Facilities and the Survey of Inmates in Federal Correctional Facilities (both of which are conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics) identifying the descriptive statistics on the number of prisoners living bellow the poverty line at the time just prior to their last admission into custody. If any fellow Wikipedians are aware of such a report, I highly recommend sharing a few key points on this page.

Joshseim (talk) 14:52, 15 September 2011 (UTC)


 * This sounds like it would more appropriate for United States incarceration rate or Incarceration in the United States. This article is about prisons, primarily as structures, not imprisonment and its related controversies. Keep in mind also that this is a global article. --JeffJ (talk) 16:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input. I agree that such a discussion should be included on the entries you cite, but I am reluctant to agree that a conversation on economic inequality is more appropriate on those pages than this one. Imprisonment has long standing history of over-incarcerating the poor. This is fact, not controversy. A controversy might include a statement such as, “Imprisonment controls/regulates poverty.” I’m not requesting such a statement, even though I believe a brief citation of such an opinion and counter opinions would also be valuable for this page. Rather, I’m suggesting that this article more explicitly note a historical trend that is already somewhat implicit in the brief mention of debtor’s prisons and other subtopics. Also, your point on this article being “global” is well taken, but this trend is generalizable to other nations. Others’ expertise on the poor behind bars in other areas of the world would be excellent for this page. Lastly, I want to note that I find it peculiar that this article includes a couple of references to an overrepresentation of blacks behind bars in America but with no explicit reference to economic inequality. Racial inequality in the U.S. criminal justice system must include a discussion of class. I am concerned that readers may draw two invalid conclusions otherwise. First, some may assume that racial disparities among prisoners can be explained solely or primarily by racial discrimination in the criminal justice system (while discrimination is certainly an important explanatory variable, few scholars would agree that it is an exhaustive or even a primary cause). Second, some may conclude that racial disparities among prisoners can be explained by blacks being naturally more criminal that other races (while this may seem ridiculous to most, it is important to remember that Wikipedia reaches the masses, which includes pockets of the ignorant and misinformed). This article should note that many researchers conclude blacks are more likely to be imprisoned primarily because they are more likely to occupy the bottom rungs of the economy (in addition to other causes such as racial discrimination in the criminal justice system). These are simply suggestions, and I’m willing to discuss them further. I appreciate your response, but I’m unsatisfied with your argument. Joshseim (talk) 14:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Again: This article is about prisons, primarily as structures, not imprisonment and its related controversies. Since the subject matter deals with imprisonment/incarceration issues in the United States, why would you not want to include it in Incarceration in the United States?--JeffJ (talk) 18:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I assume this is why a discussion of racial disparities has been removed from the page within the last 6 hours. I’m disappointed that this was the apparent solution. Your point is taken, but you are neglecting an important historical pattern that has shaped the so-called “structures” of prison throughout time. I encourage you to re-read my initial response. Such a discussion of poverty and imprisonment does not have to be, nor should it be, limited to the United States. Joshseim (talk) 20:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I get it; It's an important historical pattern, and I've reread your comments, BUT AGAIN: This article is about prisons, primarily as structures, not imprisonment and its related (albeit factual) controversies. Since your subject matter deals with imprisonment/incarceration issues in the United States, it is not appropriate for this article and belongs in Incarceration in the United States or if you'd like to generalize the information, then the more global imprisonment article. I'm not sure if I can make all this any clearer to you. --JeffJ (talk) 21:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. But now we're arguing about a dramatically re-worked page. Less than 24 hours ago this article included an explicit discussion of racial disparities. Shortly after I post my concern, it disappears.... Joshseim (talk) 23:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes. After you brought it to my attention I realized the article was deviating from its original scope and I deleted the content that was more appropriately covered in other main articles. I believe I was pretty clear about that in the edit summaries. --JeffJ (talk) 03:25, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Glattcelle — a part of the prison system of Norway
Photos of glattcelle are here.

What is the English name, or what should one call an article about the subject?--85.166.140.237 (talk) 11:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Globalize
The article (apart from the History section) discusses the topic solely in relation to the Anglo-Saxon world (United States, Ontario, England and Wales), and assumes a common-law jurisdiction (as in "A criminal suspect ... may be held on remand in prison if he is denied or unable to meet conditions of bail", which is meaningless in most of the world, where remanding suspects is quite possible but granting bail is an unknown concept). See also the section Americanisation/Americanization of article above on this page. --Lambiam 09:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Well said. The problem is whether to try to globalize this article or direct readers to other articles that speak to non-global issues like bail, protective custody, etc. Off the top of my head (I'm still on my first coffee) I think it might be easier to restrict this article to prison as a structure and it's most basic use: to imprison. Anything beyond that (social, political, etc.) could be addressed in separate articles (sections might become too unwieldy) much like Incarceration in the United States. --JeffJ (talk) 14:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Vandalization of intro paragraph
I apologize in advance for not reading up enough on the proper etiquette, however I felt like this needed to be reported quickly. Glancing at this article tonight, I came across the following sentence in the intro paragraph:


 * A prison (from Old French prisoun)[1] is a place in which nigger people are physically confined and, usually, whipped, lashed, starved or another of a range of personal freedoms.:

Besides having a missing serial comma and sporting atrocious grammar, it is obviously biased, derogatory, and inflammatory. Since I'm a newbie, I won't attempt to fix it myself, but will trust the wider audience. Thanks! Yoyo.edit (talk) 05:33, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Conditional sentences - where?
The article says that conditional sentences were introduced in 1996. This appears to me to be an unverifiable statement. Does the writer mean that they were introduced into a certain penal code in a certain country in 1996? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 04:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Shackles female picture
This picture is from the prison fetish website gotcuffs, which specializes in showing women in jumpsuits getting shackled and made to wear orange flip flops in cells. It is not an accurate depiction of a woman in prison, as shackles are not worn inside of secured cells. As it is from a pornographic site, I move that it be replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.225.129 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 13 November 2013
 * ✅ --Technopat (talk) 01:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Dry cell (prison)
Unless there's a lot more to be said about dry cells I don't see that there's a need for a separate entry. Tchaliburton (talk) 19:13, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

History of Prisoner numbers
Hello,

can anybody write something about the history of referring to prisoners by number (rather than, or in addition to, by name)? When was this custom introduced, and where? When and where did it go out of fashion? Who continues to do this and who doesn't? A quick internet search turned up no usable information.

-- 89.182.150.224 (talk) 08:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Every prison/jail is different. In America the culture of corrections is more kind and more gentle than in the past almost to the point of nausea. The focus is rehabilitation and thus humanization. The likely-hood that a prison guard(They hate to be called that) would be able to remember a numerical string rather than a name is unlikely. The practice in question is probably a Hollywood-ism{opinion}. Most guards use generic terms such as "inmate", "prisoner", "sir", "ma'am", ect... because they all dress the same and they deal with hundreds of inmates a day. -Mr. X {I speak from personal experience. I worked in corrections for a few years.} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcerptshow (talk • contribs) 03:11, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Possible changes
Population Statistics

Prison populations in the United States continues to grow annually and there is one key interpretation from that fact: the American penal system incarcerates more individuals than any other country in the world. In Germany, 93 people are in prison for every 100,000 adults and children. In the U.S., the rate is roughly eight times that, or 750 per 100,000. Russia has about 890,000 inmates, China has around 1.5 million inmates, while the United States has around 2.3 million inmates according to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).[16]

One of the many dimensions taken into account when analyzing prison statistics is the different incarceration rates between racial groups. The U.S. Department of Justice conducted an analysis of mid-2006 prison statistic date that showed for Hispanic and black men, imprisonment is a far more prevalent reality than it is for white men. Data analyzed in this report showed:

For white men ages 18 or older, 1 in 106 were in prison For Hispanic men ages 18 or older, 1 in 36 were in prison For black men ages 18 or older, 1 in 15 were in prison (Utilizing information from:

- http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_assets/2008/one20in20100pdf.pdf)

State Prison Reformations

On July 15, 2016, Alaska Governor Bill Walker signed SB 91, an extensively vetted crime reform bill, into law to try and reduce the state's prison population and its associated costs. This came at a time when the state was facing the prospect of a projected 27% increase to its prison population within the next 10 years, which would costs taxpayers an additional $169 million.[17] The authors of the bill were Senators Johnny Ellis (D-Anchorage) and John Coghill (R-North Pole), the latter of whom stated "This was an enormous achievement that will reduce recidivism, hold offenders accountable, and get the most public safety out of each dollar spent on our criminal justice system."[18]

Following years of "tough on crime" policies that did not seem to be producing the desired returns on public safety, Alaska was seeking to improve safety in communities and utilize taxpayer resources more efficiently.

(Utilizing information from:

- https://www.adn.com/politics/2016/07/11/alaska-gov-walker-signs-crime-reform-bill-into-law/

- http://rightoncrime.com/2016/05/alaskas-senate-bill-91-draws-on-a-decade-of-conservative-criminal-justice-reforms/)

Prison Reform in Singapore

In 1998, Singapore was faced with similar issues that the United States is currently experiencing: rising numbers of prisoners, overcrowding, high recidivism, and trouble recruiting and retaining correctional officers. Chua Chin Kiat, Director of Singapore Prison Service, changed the mission of the criminal system to one that would "get criminals out of prison."[19] The program that was implemented, utilized a system that created "prisons as schools for life," recast guards as "captains of lives," responsoble for all prisoners' human needs—physical, emotional, spiritual, vocational, educational—and future success. Results from implementing this program included slashing recidivism from 44 percent to a low of 23 percent, settling at 27 percent in 2009, respect for guards skyrocketed above 90 percent, assaults plummeted, guards reported better working conditions, and the recruitment problem was solved.[20]

Economics of the prison industry

( In the United States alone, more than $74 billion per year is spent on prisons, with over 800,000 people employed in the prison industry.[76] )

The above statement and citation need to be updated since the cited article can no longer be reached at the provided link.

Absent of the continued growth of prison populations, the cost to run these prisons and keep the nation's criminal offenders locked up is staggering: costing taxpayers an approximate $39 billion according to a 2012 Vera Institute of Justice Study.[21] The average cost by state varies, with some states such as Indiana, Kentuckey and Idaho keeping costs below $20,000 per inmate while other states such as New York and New Jersey paying more than $50,000 per inmate.

(Utilizing information from:

- https://smartasset.com/insights/the-economics-of-the-american-prison-system)

Maxwell moilanen (talk) 06:17, 20 November 2016 (UTC)Max

Move discussion in progress
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External links modified
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Difference between Prison and Jail?
I was redirected to this page when searching for "Jail". This is about what I expected it to be, but I came here in the first place because there seems to be a difference between a prison and a jail, which I do not find explained on this page. I got the idea that they are not the same from the page on Ajit Pai, who is currently the chairman of the FCC, because, quoting from his article: ...arguing instead for a "simple proposal to cap interstate rates, with one rate for jails and a lower rate for prisons". It would be good to explain the difference to non-US readers. 79.223.14.6 (talk) 09:31, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The distinction is addressed in the intro to the article. I'm having a difficult time seeing how the distinction might be further emphasized without, in effect, making that U.S.-centered distinction seem over-emphasized in a global article. Arllaw (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Fixing the beginning formatting
Hi, I've tried having a look at the semicolons but can't seem to figure out why the bold and italic formatting is wrong. Can anyone figure out why? IP.D (talk) 18:04, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Photo selection
The photo selection is weighted very heavily toward U.S. facilities. Anyone revamping the article might want to adjust. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:52, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Economics of the prison industry
This section says that prisons are expensive, and later that prisons use forced labor for financial gain. Does anyone know why aren't these two points connected? i.e. Aren't there prisons that pay for themselves to some extent? Aren't there prisons in some really awful countries that are net profitable? Instead the two points are written as two independent bad things.


 * Short answer: no, they don't pay for themselves. Long answer, the prison industry and its revenues are entirely separate from the prisons themselves and their administration. The prison operations are paid for out of the states' general funds, i.e. taxpayer dollars; the absolutely none of the profit generated by the prison industry authority goes back to the prison administration. Worse still, the PIA is a quasi-government entity of sorts: it is created by the state, decreed by statue, yet operates as a private for-profit business. Firejuggler86 (talk) 03:11, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

First off, prisons will vary by state. Contrary statements could be true and false depending on the state. The wording might be unintentionally misleading. A prison "paying for itself" doesnt mean it needs to actually make money. Some prisons will produce products needed by the state or prison system. The old example was license plates. Today it might be a value add to a product. One system has a farm that raises cows for beef and milk and chickens for eggs and meat. The inmates work the farm and the beef is sold and turkey is bought at half the cost there by doubling the amount of meat the farm provides. The eggs and milk are generated and consumed reducing costs. The prison industry side of the question does generate money for the prison system in a few ways. 1. There is usually a direct agreement where the land used is leased. 2. The work being done is considered a skills program that gives inmates a jobs skill and work history. 3. The inmates who work earn money and when an inmates earns money they pay a portion of their housing. It isnt full on rent, but money is put back into the prison system. This portion is usually codified in state law because it is a payroll deduction. 4. If an inmate invents something while working in that role the state retains the rights to that intellectual property and the future royalties would belong to the state. I am sure there are other creative ways states generate money to fund prisons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcerptshow (talk • contribs) 10:05, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

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"Theories of punishment" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Theories of punishment and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 7 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:12, 7 May 2022 (UTC)