Talk:Private prison/Archives/2013

Tone
Just an anonymous opinion, but this article reads more like a persuasive paper than an encyclopedia article. Don't know if this is a problem or not, but I just thought I'd bring it to attention.--216.97.162.74 12:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Maybe there should be some more mention of the criticism which private prisons face. Piercetp 02:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree too, so I went ahead and added tone and cleanup tags. HPRappaport 01:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparing the August 2010 version of the article to the January 2007 version which you tagged, it looks like a very serious improvement has been made. The rhetorical questions are gone, the tone seems neutral, and 3 countries are covered.  I'm going to remove the tone, neutrality, and cleanup tags.  There is still a worldview issue which I'll discuss in another section.  If you disagree with the removal, please discuss the specific issue here.  Thundermaker (talk) 15:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Benefits of private prisons
This article should include coverage of the benefits of private prisons, including reduced costs (Disproven elsewhere in the article, I guess it should contradict itself?), flexibility (i.e. the private sector can provide prisons quickly; and if the inmate population drops, the contract can be terminated more easily than it would be to fire civil servants and shut down a government prison), etc. For these reasons, I have tagged it with the POV tag. Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 04:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The above comments aren't reflective of reality.

For-profit prisons are not at all "flexible." They have often spent many years trying to build in locations where a public prison could have been constructed in a few years. In Alaska, Wackenhut Corrections tried to build in Anchorage in 1996. Due to public opposition the attempt was abandoned in 1997, at which time, partners in the scheme, including oil field contractor VECO and Allvest (a halfway hosue chain) attempted to moveor Allvest in 1998, then proposed to build in Wrangell, Sitka, Ketchikan, Nome, the Mat-Su Valley and the tiny, isolated town of Whittier. All but Whittier were eliminated due to local opposition. In 2006 the Whittier proposal was finally abandoned but at that point the FBI had been investigating corruption for years. Eventually 11 political and business figures were indicted and convicted, though a few convictions were later overturned. Those doing prison time in the "Polar Pen" scandal included the owners of VECO and Allvest. In 2002 Wackenhut Corrections also tried to build in Kansas and Pueblo, Colorado, eventually abandoning both proposals in 2006. Wackenhut by 2003 had become GEO Group after the G4Falck, the Danish buyer, had divested the corrections business to investors led by former Wackenhut management. GEO tried to resuscitate the Colorado proposal in Ault, but local opposition and discovery of corruption caused that to be abandoned as well. The state of Arizona tried to contract for 5,000 unneeded beds starting the process in 2009, but escapes and legal entanglements have delay the issuance of any contracts until December 2011 at least, and they may never be issued. They called for the state to pay for empty beds under contract, which could have led to the state paying over $2 million per week for totally empty prisons.Activist (talk) 18:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Shutting down for-profit contractors merely because they aren't needed or thrifty is a formidable task, in that they contribute millions to the politicians proponents of the legislation that has been responsible for their proliferation. The operators have shifted their focus to holding detainees for ICE, which produce far higher returns, and they are influencing immigration policy in the direction of increasing their profits through millions spent in lobbying.Activist (talk) 18:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

After studying the pros and cons of private prison, if the states decided to outsource the prison management, the states are still accountable for the smooth operation of the prisons despite being operated by private company. States retain the regulatory oversight the prison management. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.96.200.36 (talk) 10:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The federal government, states and municipalities have done an abysmal job of monitoring for-profit contracts, with rare exceptions. Oklahoma is the only state that's done a good job, a formidable task given the level of patronage the industry has bought in the legislature and the governor's mansion.Activist (talk) 18:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Ref number 21 is invalid, it does not contain the quote that references it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Vmatesi|Vm

atesi]] (talk • contribs) 12:41, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The opinion piece from the Reason Institute was removed due to bias. Reason is funded in part by the for-profit prison industry and appears to produce "research" on demand to satisfy conservative ideological and/or corporate interests. It receives far more funding from Koch Industries whose owners have long promoted the privatization of prisons and other core government services. David Koch sits on the Reason board.Activist (talk) 05:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Here are two most extensive studies carried out on the (alleged) economical benefits of Private Prisons:
 * Private and Public Prisons – Studies Comparing Operational Costs and/or Quality of Service, United States General Accounting Office, August 1996
 * Private Prisons in the United States – An Assessment of Current Practice, Abt Associates Inc., July 1998
 * Both studies came to a similar conclusion, that the analysis of the existing data does not support the view that governments will save money by contracting prison operations. – Fuzzy – 21:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Corruption and white collar crime due to private prisons
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4AI11B20081119

interesting. could use a mention on the page?? I'll think of a way to work it in.

24.190.132.242 (talk) 17:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

there is other organized crime that has gone down surrounding private prisons -- http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13185306&fsrc=rss it's terrible. 128.59.34.108 (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

In Alaska, Cornell Corrections (later Cornell Companies, absorbed into GEO Group in 2010) became involved in an effort to privatize a major part of the prison system by acquiring Allvest, owned by Bill Weimar. It was a privately owned corporation that had apparently acquired enough patronage thanks to bribes and campaign contributions, to build in a remote part of Alaska. The intended construction contractor was VECO. After Delta Junction's townspeople revolted, the proposal was moved to Kenai where it met the same reception by locals. Finally, the team proposed to build its project in a number of dispersed locations including Wrangell, Ketchikan, Sitka, Mat-Su, Nome and Whittier. Eventually, only Whittier was left as a possibility, but it too failed, thanks to legislative resistance. Within a year, the FBI raided the offices of six legislators and those of VECO. Indictments eventually followed, first for an ex-representative, then five legislators as well as the president and vice president of VECO and two lobbyists including Weimar, the ex-governor's chief of staff and a U.S. Senator. All were eventually convicted, though some verdicts were later overturned due to technicalities.Activist (talk) 05:29, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Worldview
The article details the history of private prisons in 3 countries -- US, UK, and Israel. Are there other countries with private prisons? It's an important question which should be answered in the article. Thundermaker (talk) 15:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The prison in Israel, constructed by a Louisiana operator, was found to be illegal by the Supreme Court and was never utilized.

In Canada, a prison operated by Management and Training Corporation of Utah was taken back by the Ontario provincial government after a long series of substantial problems.

In Australia, a partnership involving GEO Group has been constantly beset by problems, including a mass activist and detainee riot and escape at Woomera.

Conservatives in New Zealand have recently undertaken privatization initiatives.

South African prisons have been partly privatized for years.

Activist (talk) 05:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Private prisons in the United States
it seems like the whole of this heading could be summarized with the last sentence "Beginning in 1868, convict leases were issued to private parties to supplement their workforce.[7][8] This system remained in place until the early 20th century."

Mentioning that private prisons started shortly after the revolutionary war is important. Perhaps someone could provide a lovely timeline? It would be nice to see the progression of things. I'll add to this article as I do more research, as this subject very deeply interests me! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.23.231 (talk) 20:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Cost/Benefit Analysis
The tone of this section is entirely unencyclopedic. If the quality of the study has been called into question by other researchers in the field then that should be cited. The dispositions of Wiki editors on the quality of the study does not constitute a reliable source or a qualified opinion and should not be used as the basis for discrediting the study.

If the study is the best information available then it is the information that must be relied upon. If criticisms of the study have been published then they should be cited. If better information is available it should be cited instead of the current study. It is below Wiki standards to cite this study simply to offer personal opinion about how it is flawed.

User: timothyjwood who is too lazy to retrieve his password. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.80.26.4 (talk) 14:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, the entire paragraph about the Vanderbilt study uses an article published by Vanderbilt itself as the reference. Has it been analyzed at all by reliable WP:SECONDARY sources?  We need to replace Wikipedians' interpretations currently there with RSS interpretations.  Thundermaker (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources
has recently added some material about private prisons in Australia and South Africa, which have been reverted by myself and another editor. The reason is that the source http://www.privateci.org/ does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for a WP:Reliable Source. From a message left on my talk page, it appears to be a collection of articles (excerpts?) from reliable sources, and if we can dig up some of those, it would make a great addition to the article. I have searched for news items about private prisons in Australia and come up empty. Can somebody help to locate the original relevant articles from ? (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a plethora of information about the for-profit screwups in Australia and New Zealand. I can't imagine how you could not have stumbled over them. If you had gone to the site you're disparaging, you would have found dozens of stories about them, none needing more than a moment's searching to verify from original sources. Here's today's story about the industry's paisd off stooges in government ceding the oversight for civil liberties to the for-profit operators.  There have also been at least a dozen stories about SERCO's malfeasance in Australia in the past week.


 * http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5789114/New-laws-toughen-prison-security
 * New laws toughen prison security
 * ANDREA VANCE Last updated 05:00 15/10/2011


 * Will that do???Activist (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

(It's easier to tell who wrote what if we use different indent levels. I increased yours by putting a : at the beginning of each paragraph.)

Yes. Although I can't speak for all of Wikipedia, I consider Stuff.co.nz to be a reliable source. The facts in the article and the opinions of the politicians quoted are all reasonable to add here using that URL as a reference, IMHO. Thundermaker (talk) 15:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

In Fiction
I have once again removed the "Blues Brothers" reference, as it does not seem to be supported in the film referenced. I don't know why this vague, largely irrelevant material in the entire section is included at all, to tell the truth. Is it because the poster is trying to boost his # of contributions? Please explain.Activist (talk) 20:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Offputting
I was about to draft a summary of what I know about private prisons in the UK only to find a) a huge amount of discussion about discussion about thinking about doing things and b) an entrenched left wing bias. Frankly, life is too short, and if this is what Wiki has become, I dont think it'll last. I shall certainly view other articles I read with greater scepticism in future! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.228.250 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi! It seems offputting, but I'll help you understand what goes on. Generally Wikipedia wants material from secondary sources (newspapers, academic journals, books, etc.) as it is a tertiary source. And it can be fun for everyone! Just take a few moments to understand what's going on, and you'll be on your way. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:09, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Is the Star Destroyer reference really necessary?
The reference to the Star Wars Star Destroyer under the "in fiction" section seems irrelevant. Here is the article as it is now:

Star Wars Star Destroyer (From cinema) -- The Imperial Star Destroyer, which first appears in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (1977), is "the signature vessel of the Imperial fleet".[1] The term "Star Destroyer" also refers to other vessels in the Star Wars universe. Super-class Star Destroyer, the Lusankya, is described in Michael Stackpole's X-Wing novels as Ysanne Isard's private prison.

The reference seems a bit esoteric and irrelevant. First off, the "From Cinema" label should be removed since in the movies we see no evidence of prisons of any kind existing on Star Destroyers (note: Princess Leia was incarcerated on the Death Star, which is most likely government property). Second, I don't think the fact that an author describes one ship as being a private prison in his books is a strong enough link to justify including it in the article. I haven't read the X-Wing novels, but if there is one specific book or books that are predominantly concerned with the prison ship then the book itself should be referenced, not Star Destroyers in general.

I recommend that the reference be deleted until someone can more narrowly describe the actual work of fiction in which the prison ship has a major role. I would delete it myself but I never edit wikipedia, don't know the proper etiquette, and don't want to piss anyone off. - TPOM