Talk:Prizren/Archive 1

Note for Nikola
It's preferable to say that Prizen "fell" rather than "was reclaimed". I'm using "fell" in the sense given by Collins English Dictionary: "to yield to attack: the city fell under the assault." Using "was reclaimed" is stretching a point, given the 450 year gap. It's also POV, given that there's clearly a dispute about the claimed rights of ownership. I deliberately used "fell" as a neutral term which says nothing about either side's claims of ownership. -- ChrisO 17:57, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Now that is enough. Now whenever you can't have it your way, you're resorting to telling us that we don't speak English good enough. "Fell" is too emotional. Nikola 06:59, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * "Emotional" in what way? The city was ruled by the Ottomans and it surrendered to the Serbs during a war between the two sides. That's a statement of fact, nothing more. -- ChrisO 08:58, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * "Fell" implies the way in which it surrendered. Nikola 10:58, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * BTW, I'm not casting aspersions on your command of English, I'm trying to explain why I used a particular term and backing that up with the dictionary definition so that you don't have any reason to think that I'm trying to pull the wool over your eyes. -- ChrisO 09:02, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, and each time using different dictionary for the purpose. Nikola 10:58, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Official website of Municipality of Prizren
The website of the Municipality of Prizren is official. These governmental bodies have been elected by a free and democratic vote on elections accepted by the international community to be free and fair. Do you have a problem with that?

Does it matter who finances the website? Soros can and it does provide financial assistance to the official free and democratic institutions around the world.

Nikola, get real, would you like Serbian websites from Belgrade to be the official websites of the Kosovar municipalities? --Kosovar 17:47, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * You should put this on the first Talk page of the page you reverted.
 * As I said, nothing on any of these sites indicates that they are official; an official site practiaclly always has text "Official site of ..." written somewhere prominently. Neither of these sites do. When one enters one of these sites, he is taken to city history. The site has a sidebar which leads to various data about the city but nowhere says that any of it is official. Most prominently linked at the top of the site are links about some "Delta Project". "About" link says "The Municipality of Prizren was competitively selected for participation in the 'Developing Enterprises Locally Through Alliance and Action' (DELTA) project, which aims to enhance municipal capacities for SME Development. DELTA is a joint initiative of the World Bank Group and the Local Government and Public Service Reform Initiative (LGI), which is a network program of the Open Society Institute (OSI)." To me, this seems like a clear indication that this is a site of the Delta Project's branch in Prizren.
 * And of course, if I encounter a website of a Serbian government of a municipality, I will include it. Nikola 10:46, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Looking at it, I think you're right. But the simplest way of finding out is to ask, so I've done that - I'll let you know what they say. -- ChrisO 11:11, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Every single website has the official logo of the municipality at the top of the webpage, together with the name of the municipality. I thought the logo serves like an official stamp, right?


 * No. There are a lot of web pages about cities in Serbia which have city coat of arms but are completely unofficial. Heck, city pages on Wikipedia oftenly have coats of arms and they are all unofficial. Nikola 03:41, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Are you trying to say that www.unmikonline.org is not the official website of UNMIK because if does not say "The Official ..."? How about the Kosovo Assembly, is that not official? Or the Prime Minister's website? They are not official because they don't have the words "The Official...", whereas the official stamps and logos are irrelevant, is this what you are trying to say?


 * No. But in addition to having UNMIK's seal, that website has news from UNMIK, information about UNMIK as a political organisation, and offers official UNMIK documents for download. Most importantly, it doesn't have large bar at the top with information about some random group. Nikola 03:41, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Riinvest and Soros have invited municipalities to create business project to aid the development of small and medium interprises, and 7 municipalities with the best programs have received funding, including financal support for designing and running website of the municipalities. These are the official websites of the municipalities, where in addition to information about municipalities, they also present the business project and credit Riinvest and Soros for their financial support.


 * Do you know that, or are just guessing? Nikola 03:41, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * If these were Delta project branches, they would be called "Delta Prizren" and not "Komuna Prizren" (Municipality of Prizren). Obviously, komuna means municipality.


 * Well, then perhaps these are branches of Delta project in the Municipality of Prizren. The URL doesn't indicate anything. Nikola 03:41, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * To summarise, the idea is, if a municipality prepares good projects, Riinvest and Soros would provide financal support for municipalities to set-up their own website and publish those projects along with other information. However, these project belong to the municipalities, together with the information that they publish about themselves. Soros did nor prepare those projects, municipalities did.


 * Anyhow, I look forward to hearing from ChrisO. Everything should be clearified then. Kosovar 14:07, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The official name of KOSOVA is KOSOVA/ KOSOVO and not Kosova and Metohija. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.18.131.168 (talk • contribs) 13:53, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Demography
HRE, how about you provide some source for your demographic numbers? Until then, I will have to remove this unusually biased number. It is like triple amount of Serbs to Albanians. Ilir pz 14:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Very well. Could you say why you removed the entire section? (including the 2001 estimate).


 * However, I must first hear if you are willing to accept this? I mean, do you accept that Prizren was built by the Serbs to a certain amount of time majorily inhabited by them? --HolyRomanEmperor 16:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a work written by Doctor Joseph Müller in German in Prague, 1844. Albanien, Rumelien und die Österreichisch-montenegrinische Gränze. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Now really, you read pro-Serbian history, and I read the history that Albanian historians wrote. According to what I read your speculations above are just propaganda war Serbian regime used to justify the occupation of back then Kosovo province. It does not seem to me to be realistic that Prizren was inhabited by 70% Serbs. It just doesn't. I will check for more info on that, but until then I will really have to ask for stronger evidence. Doctor Joseph Müller might have just been made up. You know my attitude about historical evidence.Ilir pz 08:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I strictly read from international historians. But please, you conote that everithing that Serbian rulers in the history did by some justifying of what they were supposed to do. That's really harsh. And no, that's not regarding the city. That's regarding the entire District - western Kosovo (Metohija) was split into three Disctricts, two were majorily Serbian - Peja and Prizreni, while Djakove was mostly Albanian. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:00, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry if it sounded harsh. But the references I see around, from Serbian editors, are just unbelievable...like those from High school books, terrible. I want to believe you read from international historians only, and expect that you cite only them when you write in the historical articles. As a starter, find me an international source, citing ''Doctor Joseph Müller" please. And how relevant his observations are, where did he get those data (which are conflicting with the history that I read, big time). Which international source says Peja and Prizreni were majorily Serbian districts? Ilir pz 14:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with the history section
Firstly, it implies that the City was seized by Serbia in 1912 - which it wasn't.
 * Who ruled Kosovo once the Albanian uprisals of 1910-12 were crushed by Ottoman forces? That is the end of First Balkan war, I think Kosovo was seized by Serbia in 1912. Actually Serbs seized even Northern Albania, that is why the London Conference was called. That is what some Serbian historians say even Ilir pz 14:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, it states that the City was handed over to Bulgaria in 1916 - although I don't deny this possibility, I have never heard of it before and couldn't find anything regarding it.

Thirdly, it said that the Serbian forces regained control in October 1918 when the Central Powers were in full retreat from southern Serbia - implying that the city was a part of Serbia.
 * well, as it was seized previously in the first Balkan war, the city was a "part" of Serbia as a result. Maybe this citation could help "In 1915, the Western allies, in the secret Pact of London, agreed to divide Albania between Greece and Italy leaving only a small autonomous state in the central region. Austria-Hungarian and Bulgarian troops moved into Kosovo.  The Serb armies were beaten decisively and in what is known as " The Great Serbian Retreat" made a disastrous trek across Kosovo and the snow- covered mountains of Albania.  The army was accompanied by thousands of Serb civilians who were terrified by what they had heard about the fate of Belgium at the hands of the Axis powers.  The best estimate is that 100,000 Serbs lost their lives during this grueling retreat.  Kosovo was occupied by Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria. Many Kosovar Albanians joined the Austria- Hungarian army.  Albanian language schools were opened to undermine the Serbian presence.  After the tide of battle turned against Austria-Hungary in 1918 the Serb army took revenge massacring   women and children and destroying homes.  In retaliation guerilla warfare against the Serbs was relentless.


 * The peace treaties of 1919-1920 established a Yugoslav state with the name "The Kingdom of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs". The name was shortly changed to Yugoslavia.  Included in the Kingdom, which was a constitutional monarchy, beside those mentioned above were Bosnia- Herzegovina, Montenegro and Macedonia.  Kosovo was again an integral part of Serbia. The Kingdom was comprised of 12 million people, of whom 400,000 were Albanian.  It was overwhelmingly a Slavic state.  In contrast 64% of the population of Kosovo was Albanian, and of these three-quarters were Muslim.  The Kingdom was governed from Belgrade."Ilir pz 14:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

P. S. - there's an extra spacing at the right beginning of the article. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The old city name it was Theranda paralel with Ulpiana they was the most knowit citys in Kosovo area. During the Ottoman this city it was called Kaza e Prizrenit and Nahia e Prizrenit. The Ottoman L dialect of Prizreni (Prizrenqe) it was spoked in the region of old provine Dardania, Sofia and around the old province. This dialect is till today a live is a mixed albanian, turkish and arabian L. The peopel of Gorani they mixed bugarian, albanian, turkish and arabian L. Today they speek mostly serbian from the school and at home they user the islamic terms in serbian L. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.181.92.223 (talk • contribs) 11:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I discussed on irc with several Administrators that it's wrong to allow moderators to exclude anyone they want from the project, it looks like "owning" - which is Wikipedia against; I suggest a removal of that. Does every participant agree? --HolyRomanEmperor 14:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * one paraghraf states that ottoman army take the city in 1455 and the following say that ottoman army take the city in 1545. I assume that is a typo, but then is not necessary repeat two times the action.

--88.3.130.135 (talk) 09:00, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Ilir,
1. Well yes, the Serbs did seize Albanian territories around Skadar, but Serbia's forces might have assisted in advances towards Prizren - Serbia did not conquer Prizren in 1912. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

2. I just verified that it was handed over to the Bulgarian Tsardom in 1916. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

3. Exactly; Serbs, Serb Armies, Serb civilians - but nowhere Serbia. Additionally, Prizren couldn't have been a part of Serbia since the 1918/1919 formation of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, since Serbia wasn't independent, but a constituent territory of the Kingdom of SHS. Additionally, the territory of Serbia did not include Prizren in 1918/1919-1929 (Kingdom's lasting). --HolyRomanEmperor 14:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yo what do you mean, Serbs, Serb armies but not Serbia? that is an odd comment. Ilir pz 15:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Prizren joined Serbia at the end of 1918, but since the formation of the Kingdom, it has been returned to the restored entity of Montenegro. It became Serbia's again only when the Chetniks and Partisans liberated it in 1944. Do you understand, Ilir? --HolyRomanEmperor 14:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, they were refering to the Montenegro... --HolyRomanEmperor 19:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Messy history :))) Thanks for the clarification, HRE. Ilir pz 22:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hre there is need for major reordering and cutting unnecessary details of history. With all due respect, you added far too many details, which if I were a foreigner I would not care to know about Prizren. And worse, you cited nothing even though you added massive parts of text. Expecting some citations before I decide to cut parts. I need your agreement on this Ilir pz 01:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

What the hell does this mean?
Prizren (Albanian Prizren/Prizreni, Serbian: Призрен/Prizren) is a historic city located in a United Nations-administered territory of Kosovo, but factually under the Provisional Self-Government) 

This is completely opaque to somebody not familiar with the political situation in Kosovo already. Does this need to be in the intro? Wouldn't it make more sense to include the fact that it is de jure part of Serbia than this business about the United Nations or the Provisional Self-Government? john k 15:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

-- You're right. The entire territory of Kosovo is UN-"administered," but in the entry, it sounds like only that area is controlled by UNMIK and the PISG. Tonercl 14:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Cheryl T

"Instruments of the Serbian occupatory regime", "key positions oppressing Albanians"
"Most of the feared revenge from Albanian population, because most of the were instruments of the Serbian occupatory regime, and were in key positions oppressing Albanians, and taking over their work positions"

Unless this is backed up with some solid reference, it looks like blatant POV bordering on hate speech. 83.65.242.73 10:58, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Unitet Naticion Law in Kosovo and Wikipedia
Before two years, I have presented the argument. In thate time it was clear, thate, Serbia with or without Kosovo, is going to be part of Europe Card for citys names. And Europ Card for citys names (komuna) is adopted from Kosovar Govermend. My dier friends in English Wikipedia, you are maken not a litel problem, but with all information, you are changen the oficial names of the citys in Kosovo.

You have taket the Serbial Law or some imagenedet rouls, als more importen thane UN Law. English Wikipedia is not working/existing under the Serbian Law, but under UN Law. Don´t be wondering if somebody is acusing the English Wikipedia for anti-UN propaganda and "spaming" desinformation to the internet iusers.

The mandat of UN in Kosovo is hight livel thane Serbian Law - witch since the UNMIK is in Kosovo, dont exist anymore for Kosovo.


 * 1) You are working agains the Kosovo Law
 * 2) You are working agains the Europen Card for city names
 * 3) You are working agains the UNMIK - Law
 * 4) You are working agains the UN - Law

The LAW of Kosovo, Eropen, UNMIK and UN, thate I have presented here before two years nobady diden respect.

Becose of this I acuse you for desinformations and working aganis this LAWS, and with you works here you are helping to destabisate the sitution in Balkan. DON SAY THAT YOUR HANDS ARE CLEAR, DONT BE PART OF PROPAGANDA WITCH MOTIVAT THE PRIMITIV PEOPEL, PLEASE REPECT THE UN - LAW

THE SYS. AND ADMINISTRATORS OF ENGLISH WIKIPEDIA HAVE RESPOSIBLITI TO STOP MAKEN WIKIPEDIA AS PART OF PROPAGANDA WITCH MOTIVATE PRIMITIV PEOPEL.

SINCE 2 YEARS, ENGLISH WIKIPEDIA WITH NOT RESPECTING THE UN LAW, IS HELPING IN DESTABILSATION OF THE BALKAN REGION. - Hipi Zhdripi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.70.183.85 (talk) 00:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

hhjkdshhlkjulkmanxıuç.ömoyhpomcxjtmad8789jklmoıy89wy7aR56DWUIEYŞWRKYOGYw985r8wrkyhlkdfahut —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.186.120.95 (talk) 14:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Turkish is an offical language in Prizren
So the article should include it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.207.65 (talk) 22:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC) yes thats tru and the name of Prizren doesent come from serbia lik some ather tolk but hte truth is at at the luig of prizren in museum, The name comes from Ümer Prizreni fam. not thru the cekoslovakei prizrenice bla bla. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.191.43 (talk) 06:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Two pictures showing "serbian suffering"
I believe it is not fair that of all the pictures in the page, two of them show destroyed Serbian houses and churches. That is like only 10% of all the destruction and killings in the city. Almost 30% of the city was burned down by Serbian Forces during the war. It is only fair if we would leave out the war, or at leas put both pictures of Albanian and Serbian houses in Prizren. AnnaFabiano (talk) 15:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we should leave behind the war and concentrate on the future like culture, economy etc. Don't be surprised, like always there was and still is a tendency on making all Kosovo-related articles biased and create the illusion that there is still a war going on here. Thank you.  kedadi al  15:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * May be, but we should never leave behind the war. Those are lost and destroyed Serbian property and churches, so regarding NPOV, those must be here. And it is very rude to write "serbian suffering" like that. You make a mockery of all those Serbs that are expelled and killed in Prizren. Those two will stay there. Specially "Church of Holy Salvation". If Albanians destroyed sacred XIV century monument, they must live with it. And Wiki, as international encyclopedia, will show that. 89.216.194.103 (talk) 15:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Then we have to show some 30 pictures of Prizren on 1999 how it looked like and you will get the idea.
 * "we should never leave behind the war" -Don't get me wrong on this, as I wasn't saying to forget it but just to focus on the future, the past will make us go backwards, and I know that going backwards is the goal of some editors here on wikipedia. For me personally, is impossible to forget the war because I've lost family members. Thank you.  kedadi al  16:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, sorry about the "serbian suffering" thing. But still, If Wikipedia wants to be neutral we should add information about "Albanian suffering" too! Like burned down Albanian houses, although it would be better if there would be only two pictures like that, one showing Serbian damaged property, and second showing an Albanian one. I am talking about neutrality. Here is a picture of League of Prizren destroyed. AnnaFabiano (talk) 15:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, i agree with that. Just find some good picture, and we will change other one, with "destroyed Serbian property in Prizren". Tadija (talk) 18:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Edits.
Picture is off, as agreed. All other is now in order... Tadija (talk) 11:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * In order to agree there have to be more than one agreeing. There is no reason to remove the text about Pjetër Bogdani, the references are there. On the other hand, if you want to put the other version of Prizren name, please do no push it, let's discuss, these are all theories, non of them is a fact. So we can put both alternatives, but you will have to remove the forum reference and maybe give a NPOV RS as WP requires. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:00, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * THAT'S not forum reference, whats wrong with you!? I dont want to tell same things over and over again! That reference is part of the book by Mirjana Detelić: Градови у хришћанској и муслиманској епици, Belgrade, 2004, ISBN 86-7179-039-8. And all of those site are ONLY in albanian. They have some links, but that is fake, so there are no english page on those sites. So, these are ONLY in Albanian. And, ok, we will keep disputed Pjeter text. Tadija (talk) 12:26, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Tadija, when making such changes, it is preferred to discuss first. You added two references, one of them is from a forum the other one is from a Serbian book (which does not make it invalid per se, but in disputed and complex issues like this it does require to be verified - It is in Serbian, I cannot find nor verify it). Please read WP:RS and Verifiability. I think that we should add that view also, but you will have to find more sources on that. Please do not RV again, or I will have to report you on 3RR violation. Instead, try to find a better source. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As for 1689:


 * WHAT APPEARS TO BE A SERBIAN ONE:


 * The City was taken by the end of the 17th century by Austrian and collaborating Serbian armed forces, but the Ottomans subsequently restored control over it, leading to a mass exodus of its Eastern Orthodox population - among who over 20,000 were Serbs.


 * AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE AN ALBANIAN ONE:


 * The city was taken in 1689 by the Austrian Army in collaboration with Pjetër Bogdani, Albanian Archibishop of Shkup (Skopje) who organized five thousand Albanian fighters (muslim and catholic), while serbian Patriarch chose an easier way by escaping to Serbia and taking with him Serbian and some Albanian orthodox population . But the Ottomans subsequently restored control over it. Pjetër Bogdani body was digged out from his grave - he died getting sick by plage while he was taking care of Austrian general in Prishtina - and his body was thrown to dogs by Ottomans.


 * I think we could add both of them. Though the Serbian One should be backed by references, until then we could add a CN at the end. This seems to be a fair version:


 * According to Malcolm, the city was taken in 1689 by the Austrian Army in collaboration with Pjetër Bogdani, Albanian Archibishop of Shkup (Skopje) who organized five thousand Albanian fighters (muslim and catholic), while serbian Patriarch chose an easier way by escaping to Serbia and taking with him Serbian and some Albanian orthodox population . But the Ottomans subsequently restored control over it. Pjetër Bogdani body was digged out from his grave - he died getting sick by plage while he was taking care of Austrian general in Prishtina - and his body was thrown to dogs by Ottomans.


 * Other sources claim that by the end of the 17th century the City was taken by Austrian and collaborating Serbian armed forces, but the Ottomans subsequently restored control over it, leading to a mass exodus of its Eastern Orthodox population - among who over 20,000 were Serbs.


 * If everyone agrees I will edit this! —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You ONLY want to delete real origin of the Prizren name. Eric Hamp. According to Eric Hamp. SOURCE?? There are none of them. I dont want to say all over again same things, just google the Призрѣнь, and you will see. That forum of yours is BOOK PART. It is part from that book! It is internationally published. Also, compare with Czech Přízřenice. Even now, word prizren can be translated in Serbian. It can not in Albanian. And that POV disgusting edit of albanian version of 17th century will not be there. If we cannot agree, then it is better not to have it at all! If Eric Hamp words are ok, then why Basil II in his documents write Призрѣнь? At the end, eric is member of Albanian Academy of Sciences, so that source is disputable also. I will not let you to push you pro-albanian ideas. You will not hide the history, and more than millennium of Serbian existence there. Today is other thing, but history is Serbian.


 * When you find some sources of that, eric hamp theory can be returned. Tadija (talk) 10:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Tadija, please try to assume a good faith. The material was removed as the reference was not valid. It was written by a Serbian author. On the other hand, Hamp is considered a reliable source, read WP:RS. And please let's not turn every discussion into a forum. We could add that also. Just find a better source. And before RV try to discuss first, it is really important that we agree on things first. —Anna Comnena (talk) 10:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, while i find some MORE sources, we can leave it like this... Tadija (talk) 10:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

References for the name
Wile I would like to enrich the page Prizren, there is a real concern about the references used. Please try not to make any changes until a verifiable reference is found. On the other hand, it is preferable when two different thesis are brought forward, forms like is, are to be replaced by there are claims or some sources point. —Anna Comnena (talk) 16:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Except one thesis is real and long lasting, and other in NEWBORN. Those two are not identical. And when you place some sources point, then some ideas from international foreigners are hand by hand with old and dogmatic truths. There is no worse thing then democracy. And, luckily, Wikipedia is NOT a democracy. Tadija (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That is true, but POV pushing is a fundamental WP policy. BTW do not forget your 3RR Warning that I requested, it has been observed that the references were not verifiable. —Anna Comnena (talk) 17:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The URL that Tadija provided for this reference, Mirjana Detelić: Градови у хришћанској и муслиманској епици, Belgrade, 2004, ISBN 86-7179-039-8, does not work. It appears to be a CD-ROM rather than a book, and it seems to be held by one or two American libraries, so it probably exists. Its ISBN is shared by another unrelated book, so the ISBN can't be trusted. Since we cannot read this work online, the only way to know what facts it verifies is through a person who has access to it. Tadija, do you have access to this CD-ROM, and do you know what is in it? EdJohnston (talk) 02:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure, that would be great, but even then, it is somehow fallacious to claim that it is the only explanation for the name. So I the reference is found, it would be better if the paragraph would start something like Other sources claim... or Another explanation for the name.... It is copy-editing issue, I know, but still! —Anna Comnena (talk) 09:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have it, but i have the book, not CD-ROM? Dont know what is that about CD-ROM, maybe some other edition? The main book is caled Epski Gradovi (Serbian: Epic Towns). That source that i found on forum is exception from the book. At the end, information about Prizren name origin can be found in two other books, at least! That are from foreign authors. Tadija (talk) 10:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I dont see any problem with this source? Why is it constantly deleted? There are few sources on this, there are no need to delete information. Pagliaccioknows (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Epski Gradovi? Can anyone bring a source NOT of a Serbian author that we CAN verify? --Kreshnik25 (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, Studime krahasuese për shqipen looks very pro-Albanian. On Albanian language, and from Albanian linguist. And, also, that source is unverifiable also. Do you have some good link? At the end, both version can stand here. Why is that problem to you, Kreshnik25? It would be nice that Tadija participate also. Pagliaccioknows (talk) 16:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It isn't an Albanian book, it is written by an American. And the title you mentioned is just the Albanian translation. --Kreshnik25 (talk) 16:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, where is the original edition book link? Pagliaccioknows (talk) 16:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, i just find |this. You lied to us. It is edition of Akademia e Shkencave dhe e Arteve e Kosovës, in 2007. So, this source is even more disputable than Tadija's! I'll edit article. It looks like Tadija was right. Pagliaccioknows (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I will revert you. You are wrong, the academy just REPUBLISHED it. Can't you see that the writer is the American well-known linguist Eric Hamp? --Kreshnik25 (talk) 17:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, i think you lie again. Book "Comparative Studies on Albanian" by Eric Hamp doesn't exist. If you find original source, it will be better. Dont delete sources, it is considered as bad wiki behavior. (Lol) Pagliaccioknows (talk) 17:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It has an ISBN number. If the author is an authority on the issue, it doesn't mater who published it. Eric Hamp studied ancient languages like Celtic, Sanskrit, Albanian, even Slovene etc. He is an American linguist. The problem is that your claims are made without prior discussion, with lack of reliable references (if references at all) and badly written (which can be fixed). Why start edit-waring when we can discuss the references in a civilized manner. When a common ground cannot be found, than WP:3O can be called. —Anna Comnena (talk) 17:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * At the end, Eric P. Hamp wiki page confirms that you are not right about that. It is just Kosovar edition, and as per that, it is also not verifiable. Pagliaccioknows (talk) 17:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It is a translation, not an autonomus edition. It has nothing different from the English version. --Kreshnik25 (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Can anyone who understands the Serbian position on this summarize what is known for sure? I tried to figure out the reference that Tadija provided, but I could not get the URL to work. Something about Serbian epic poetry, that was written by Mirjana Detelić? There is also a separate work by Detelić about Serbian towns. I don't object to references that are entirely in Serbian, but somebody must be able to explain to us what the reference says, and who the author is. Since Tadija erased his Talk page, it is hard to converse with him. EdJohnston (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I can! And i just move discussion to the Archive! You can talk to me! I have the book from Mirjana Detelić, exception from the book this is part from there, "Gradovi u hrišćanskoj i muslimanskoj epici" (Cities in the Christian and Muslim epics). A separate work by Detelić is about Serbian towns, and it is part of the same study. Dr. Mirjana Detelić is member of Balkanology Institute of the Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, you can google her. Ask me any possible question. Tadija (talk) 20:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Serbian Academy? Not reliable. Bring an English source. --Kreshnik25 (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Serbian academy is more reliable internationally then Akademia e Shkencave dhe e Arteve e Kosovës. As i read now, you don't have reliable source, not me. THERE ARE TWO MORE BOOKS THERE! Those are reliable. Tadija (talk) 21:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That is just e translation. The writer is Eric Hamp, a wellknown linguist. --Kreshnik25 (talk) 21:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No, its not. Where is original?? Tadija (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That is not a solid argument. The author, Eric P. Hamp is a linguist, an international expert from the field (...he received his PhD from Harvard University in 1950s and since then he taught at the University of Chicago...). On the other hand Dr. Mirjana Detelić is member of Balkanology Institute of the Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, which does not mean not reliable, but certainty not an authority on the issue. —Anna Comnena (talk) 21:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Where is original of that work? I think that you lie to me again, as you did numerous times alredy. Tadija (talk) 21:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Works by Mirjana Detelić

 * I tried to follow up on a pointer given by Tadija, I do not succeed in reaching an actual reference work. The 'exception from the book' that he refers to above is a forum posting on the sci.lang newsgroup in December 2007, by a person named Dusan Vukotic. I.e. this is a forum post and not by itself citable from our articles under WP:RS. The posting offers the following etymology for Prizren: "Serb. Prizren (from Serb. verb prizoriti (to dawn); hence Serb. prozor (window), prizor (sight); Alb Prizren (has no meaning in Albanian)". However, Vukotic's message does not say he is quoting from a book and he does not cite Mirjana Detelić so I don't see why we should give this message any authority. Tadija, do you have access to an actual book by Detelić? EdJohnston (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, i have. What can i do about that? To scan it? Tadija (talk) 09:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What are the full book details? (title, date, ISBN, publisher, number of pages, etc.) What post or affiliation is stated for the author? Can you type in a few sentences from the section that gives the etymology of Prizren? (Can be in Serbian). Does the book cite any other sources for its knowledge of the Prizren derivation? Do you know what other publications have been made by Detelić? (journal articles, etc.). This is to determine what field she usually writes about. EdJohnston (talk) 15:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Tadija was blocked for 31 hours and put under "ARBMAC"(whatever that means)--Kreshnik25 (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * And Kreshnik25 has been blocked indefinitely as a sock and highly disruptive user. Tadija (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Removal of paragraph about the Roman town?
On November 5, an IP removed the paragraph about a previous Roman town. The edit summary did not make a lot of sense, so somebody who follows this page might want to see if the paragraph should be restored. His claim that "Theranda is a locality that has got nothing to do with Prizren's location" doesn't appear consistent with the later part of the article. EdJohnston (talk) 06:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Prizren is now in Serbia?
Please see this recent edit by an IP who makes Prizren be in Serbia rather than Kosovo, but only in the infobox. Will the regular editors of this page please check it out? I can apply semiprotection to this article if it becomes an ethnic football, and if people think it's the right thing to do. I am warning the IP under WP:ARBMAC. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 05:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Article about the acient handicrafts in village near prizren
http://thrret-kushtrimi.piczo.com/?g=52443290&cr=4 http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/article/Speciale/9313/ The Trade has been there since 1348 Trashëgimia e pasur kulturore që duhet të kultivohet / TRASHIGIMIA KULTURORE NË VENDBANIMET E VËRRINIT TË PRIZRENIT Rich cultural heritage that must be cultivated / Cultural heritage residences VËRRINIT Prizren Author Çerkin Bytyqi Assume that Verri respectively in Velika the City, as the center of the region Vërrinit (Prizren), which gravitate eight settlements, activities and highly developed craft known since antiquity, were those of the Tanning ( (lëkurëregjësit) (proving that this craft on this side is present even since 1348 and earlier), Which show the inherited generation toponyms after generation, once in this region were developed. Than three quarters respectively Mahala here Tabak, Mahala and Mahala Gërçakve Samarxhijve, also currently of the elderly, referred to these designations, indicating that these craft are intensively conducted in an orderly fashion and that in ancient times have made a name, and new generations, for these and other crafts that once in this township were highly developed, nor have they heard.

James Michael DuPont (talk) 20:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion on the source
After repeated removal of names, I have brought this up on the reliable sources noticeboard. Reliable_sources/Noticeboard James Michael DuPont (talk) 11:20, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

on the name
The suffix xhi is appended to a name :

me prapashtesën -xhi: “hamaxhinjtë, gështenja- xhinjtë, tatlixhinjtë, sharraxhinjtë, kacaxhinjtë, sturaxhinjtë, sheqerxhinjtë, kitërxhinjtë, kapto- rxhinjtë, plancaxhinjtë, zorraxhinjtë, tabakxhinjtë, teneqexhinjtë, kallajxhinjtë, jorganxhinjtë, zhguna- xhinjtë, furraxhinjtë, arpaxhikxhinjtë, tupanxhinjtë, telallaxhinjtë, briskaxhinjtë, leshexhinjtë, mufte- xhinjtë, gagaxhinjtë, jelekxhinjtë, mullixhinjtë, papu- çexhinjtë, kundraxhinjtë, ashçixhinjtë, kafexhinjtë, leblebixhinjtë”. 45

with the suffix-xhi: hamaxhinjtë, chestnut- xhinjtë, tatlixhinjtë, sharraxhinjtë, kacaxhinjtë, sturaxhinjtë, sheqerxhinjtë, kitërxhinjtë, Kapton- rxhinjtë, plancaxhinjtë, zorraxhinjtë, tabakxhinjtë, teneqexhinjtë, kallajxhinjtë, jorganxhinjtë, zhguna- xhinjtë, furraxhinjtë, arpaxhikxhinjtë, tupanxhinjtë, telallaxhinjtë, briskaxhinjtë, leshexhinjtë, mufte- xhinjtë, gagaxhinjtë, jelekxhinjtë, mullixhinjtë, unem- çexhinjtë, kundraxhinjtë, ashçixhinjtë, kafexhinjtë, leblebixhinjtë. 45

табахана
табахана is the serbian term. can also be written tabahana / Tabakhana.

Mentioned here again : http://www.kosovo.net/kosovo3.html 19th century; Tabahana (tanning workshop)

prizren ne lagjen tabahana
The area of the tanners.

http://publicitet-ks.com/Asp/al/View_result_products.asp?PageNo=3&t=0&cat=346&Zona=0&Search=

Mar-KILIC Camii Tabahana
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3163453 42.21389°N, 20.73972°W

MARKILIÇ – ÇOĞACI MAHMUD CAMİİ, XVIII. Yüzyılın ortasında yapıldı, 1808 yılında Abdullah Ağa tarafından yapılan tamire ait kitabesi bulunur. Tabahana’dadır

MARKILIÇ - ÇOĞACI MAHMUD MOSQUE, XVIII. Were in the middle of the century, the repair of the inscriptions found in 1808 by Abdullah Aga. Tabahana'dadır http://www.kosovahaber.net/?page=2,22,1192

AHMET BEY (TABAHANA) CAMİİ 1863 yılından önce yapılmıştır. 1997 yılında yapılan son tamirle son cemaat yerinde yapılan eklemelerle namaz yeri genişletilmiştir. Tabahana mahallesinde bulunur. AHMET BEY (TABAHANA) MOSQUE made before the year 1863. The last repaired in 1997 with the additions made over the last congregation place of prayer was expanded. Tabahana neighborhood has.

James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Another Mosque with the tabaheve name
http://www.kosovahaber.net/?page=2,22,1777 SUZİ KÖPRÜSÜ. 1508 yılında şair Suzi tarafından Prizren deresi üzerinde yaptırıldı. Taştan yapılmış olan köprünün kuzey tarafında bir gözü halen durmaktadır. Tabahana’da Suzi Camii karşısındadır. Suzi BRIDGE. Suzi was built by the poet on stream in 1508 in Prizren. Made of stone with an eye on the north side of the bridge still stands. Suzi Tabahana'da Mosque opposite.

dekja më vjen prej syve të tillë
A novel written by Rexhep Qosja

From this citation : Rexhep Qosja, "dekja më vjen prej syve të tillë", f. 132-133.

fragement : http://letersia.zemrashqiptare.net/archive/view/2225/

Vdekja më vjen prej syve të tillë trembëdhjetë tregime që mund të bënin një roman Botim i plotë dhe i rishikuar. Rexhep Qosja. Published 1998 by Botimet Toena in Tiranë. Written in Albanian. http://openlibrary.org/books/OL133391M/Vdekja_me%CC%88_vjen_prej_syve_te%CC%88_tille%CC%88

Begzad Baliu 2008 Seminari i Albanologjisë në Prishtina. Onomastika e Kosovës (Ndërmjet miteve dhe identiteteve) Kosovo onomastics (Among the myths and identities) cover : http://publiku.com/libraonline/images/Onomastika%20e%20Kosoves.jpg online : from http://www.scribd.com/doc/24797479/tike-e-Kosoves-1-Paust

About the author Begzad Baliu
http://letersia.zemrashqiptare.net/article/AutoreB/BegzadBaliu/4481/ James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Demitizimi dhe standardizimi i onomastikës së Kosovës
There is a similar book here : http://library.seeu.edu.mk/index.php?lvl=notice_display&id=417 Title :	Demitizimi dhe standardizimi i onomastikës së Kosovës Material Type: 	printed text Authors: 	Begzad Baliu, Author Publisher:	Tiranë : Argeta-LMG Publication Date: 	2006 Pagination: 	118 p. Size: 	20 cm ISBN (or other code): 	978-99943-305-6-0 General note: 	Includes bibliographical references (p.109-118) Includes bibliographical footnotes Languages :	Albanian (sqi) Original Language : Albanian (sqi) Descriptors: 	Toponyms Onomastics - Albanian language Class number: 	910 Record link:	http://library.seeu.edu.mk/index.php?lvl=notice_display&id=417 James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Tabák
Fletë e madhe letre a lënde tjetër: tabak llamarine (lëkure) Large sheet of paper or other matter: corrugated iron sheet (Leather) sq:Fjalor_i_gjuhës_shqipe_(viti_2006)

TABAK Fletë e madhe dhe e hollë letre, llamarine etj http://www.zeriyt.com/fjalorth-per-femijet-t35728.0.html James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

lëkurëregjësit
lëkure is leather in albanian.

used here : http://www.orthodoxalbania.org/Shqip/BesimiOrthodox/Veprateapostujve/Kreu10.html "Ky ka rënë tek njëfarë Simon lëkurëregjësi, i cili e ka shtëpinë pranë detit. Ky do të të flasë ç’duhet të bësh."

"This has fallen to some tanner Simon, who has the house by the sea. It will speak what to do"

http://bible.cc/acts/10-6.htm He lodges with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell you what you ought to do.

By the sea-side - Joppa was a seaport on the Mediterranean. Tanneries are erected on the margin of streams or of any body of water to convey away the filth produced in the operation of dressing skins. the port of Jaffa James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed Text
Here are some things removed, for documentation.:

The building approximately at 42.21031°N, 20.73654°W based on the picture. Tabakxhinjtë (lëkurëregjësit) is the name for leatherwoekrs.

http://picasaweb.google.com/agimi.com/Prizreni#5260348276021966866 Tabakhane,vendi ku behej perpunimi i metaleve dhe lekureve- 1960 --> Tabakhane, became the place where metal and leather processing-

http://picasaweb.google.com/agimi.com/Prizreni#5259512049261245218 Tabakhanja ( vendpunishte per regjjen e lekurave ) --> Tabakhanja (Site for the tanning of leather)

http://picasaweb.google.com/agimi.com/Prizreni#5262888032246081170 Punishtja e tabakeve ne lagjen Tabakhana --> Tray in the neighborhood workshops Tabakhana James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

craftsmen in prizren
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/showthread.php?t=79556 "shek. XVI janë zhvilluar esnafet e tabakëve (lekurarëve)", since the 16 cen. the tanning is known. Koha kur Prizreni llogaritej në radhën e qyteteve më të mëdha të Gadishullit Ballkanik

Në shekullin XVI Prizreni shënon përparim të mëtejshëm në tregti, në zejtari dhe në jetën kutturo-arsimore. Ndërtohen mullinjtë, dyqanet, karvansarajet, shkollat, xhamitë dhe zgjerohet çarshia. Në fillim të shek. XVII, Prizreni llogaritët në radhën e qyteteve më të mëdha të Gadishullit Ballkanik, si dhe qendër e rëndësishme për blegtori dhe prodhime blegtorale, posaçërisht me lesh dhe përpunimin e lëkurës, e cila eksportohej madje edhe në Gjermani. Përveç kësaj, këtu fillon prodhimi i armëve, pushkëve dhe shpata e njohur dimiskija. Pushkët e Prizrenit kanë arritur madje edhe në Azi të Vogël, Egjipt e gjetiu. Zejtaria është zhvillua aq me intensitet qysh në gjysmën e shek.

XVI janë zhvilluar esnafet e tabakëve (lekurarëve), farkëtarët, saraçët, terzinjtë, mutavgjijtë, pushkarët, thiktarët dhe argjentarët. Pra, në këtë kohë (në fillim të shek. XVI), Prizreni ishte një qendër e zhvilluar tregtare, zejtare dhe kulturo-arsimore e kësaj ane. Për këtë të dhëna jep vakufnamja e Kukli-beut, e vërtetuar më 1538 në gjyq. Përveç xhamisë së Suzit, tash përmendet edhe mesxhidi i Jakup beut, Xhamia e re (Cami sedid) dhe një mesxhid. Edhe kjo dëshmon transformimin përmanent të Prizrenit dhe karakterin e tiparet orientale, sepse xhamitë dhe mesxhidet u bënë qendra prej nga përhapej kultura islame dhe jo vetëm nga ajo e Kukli beut, por edhe të gjitha të tjerat kanë shërbyer si shkolla që ka qenë zakon në tërë botën islame. Edhe arsimi përfshinte një numër të madh fëmijësh myslimanë, ku mësonin leximin dhe recitimin e kuranit, bazën e fesë, pastaj shkrimin dhe leximin dhe arithmetikë. Mësimi zhvillohej në gjuhën osmane.

Time when Prizren accounted among the greatest cities of the Balkan Peninsula

In the XVI century Prizren marks further progress in trade, crafts and educational life-kutturo. Built mills, shops, karvansarajet, schools, mosques and bazaar expands. At the beginning of the century. XVII, Prizren calculated among the largest cities of the Balkan Peninsula, and important center for livestock and livestock products, especially wool and skin processing, which is even exported to Germany. In addition, here starts the production of weapons, rifles and swords known dimiskija. Prizren rifles have reached even in Asia Minor, Egypt and elsewhere. Craftsmanship is intensively developed as early as half of the century.

XVI guild were developed and Tabak (tanners), blacksmiths, saddler, terzinjtë, mutavgjijtë, Pushkar, and argjentarët thiktarët. So, at this time (early in the century. XVI), Prizren was a developed commercial center, craft and cultural education of the area. For this data gives the Kukli vakufnamja-Bey, was confirmed on the 1538 trial. Except Suzie Mosque, now the Jakup mentioned mesxhidi Bey, the new mosque (Cami sedid) and a Masjid. Even this proves permanent transformation of Prizren and the character of oriental features, because Masjid mosque and became the center of the spreading Islamic culture and not just from that Kukli Bey, but all the others have served as a school that has been the custom at all Islamic world. Even education included a large number of Muslim children, which taught reading and reciting the Koran, the basis of religion, then reading and writing and arithmetic. Learning takes place in the Ottoman language. James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

And a new source
Craftsmanship was highly developed and in the name of two most successful ones, Tabakët dhe Terziajt, there are bridge named after them, even today they are in good condition The Tanners (Tabakët) and the Tailors (Terziajt). https://kosovoguide.com/?cid=2,165,305&view=full James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

More sources
Another mention of the name "tabakëve (përpunimin e lëkurave)" http://pashtriku.beepworld.de/tradita_vrrini.htm Popullata e këtyre anëve, më herët është marrë me ushtrimin e zejes së tabakëve (përpunimin e lëkurave), samargjive, kërçakgjive (punimin e enëve nga dheu si çerepëve, kalanicave, etj), pastaj me bujqësi, (për më tepër vreshtari e pemëtari), blegëtori dhe bletari. The population of these sides, previously dealt with the exercise of that tray zejes (leather processing), samargjive, kërçakgjive (construction of vessels from the ground as çerepëve, kalanicave, etc.), then agriculture (for more vines and fruit) , James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

List of Places
here are more names of places http://www.prizren-web.com/magazin/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=211:prizrenske-damije-perjanice-eher-muzeja&catid=43:hronike&Itemid=161 1. Namazđah (Kerek) džamija 2. Evrenos-begova (Arasta) džamija 3. Mehmed-begova (Begzade) džamija 4. Derviš-begova (Kurila) džamija 5. Emin-pašina džamija 6. Hadži Isa džamija 7. Hadži Mustafa džamija 8. Hasan Čelebijina džamija 9. Muderiz Ali ef. džamija 10. Ilijas Kukina džamija 11. Kasim pašina džamija 12. Kavuklu Mehmed-begova džamija 13. Kurd-begova džamija 14. Kurilska džamija 15. Mahmud-pašina (Kaljaja) džamija 16. Maksud - pašina džamija 17. Gazi Mehmed pašina (Bajrakli) džamija 18. Omer Čaušova džamija 19. Sejdi - begova džamija 20. Suzi Celebijina (Sozi) džamija 21. Ahmed-begova (Tabakhana) džamija 22. Budak-hodžina (Trošen) džamija 23. Čohadi Mahmud (Merkkeleč) džamija 24. Derviš-Čelebijina džamija 25. Fatih (Džuma) džamija 26. Hadži - Kasumova džamija 27. Hadži - Ramadanova (Čoraga) džamija 28. Hasan Sivrijina džamija 29. Hoda Budakova džamija 30. Terduman Iskenderova (Dragoman) džamija 31. Kitab Sinanova (Leviša) džamija 32. Kukli - begova (Saračana) džamija 33. Kurd - pašina džamija 34. Lemi - begova džamija 35. Maksud - begova džamija 36. Mehmed - begova džamija 37. Mustafa - pašina džamija 38. Pir - Mehmedova džamija 39. Sofi Sinan pašina džamija 40. Terzi Mehmed - begova (Terzimahala) džamija

1. Namazđah (Kerek) džamija 2. Sofi Sinan - pašina džamija 3. Emin - pašina džamija 4. Suzi Čelebijina (Sozi) džamija 5. Gazi Mehmed - pašina (Bajrakli) džamija 6. Maksud - pašina (Maraš) džamija 7. Kukli - begova (Saračana) džamija 8. Muderiz Ali ef. džamija 9. Evrenos-begova (Arasta) džamija 10. Mahmud - pašina (Kaljaja) džamija

1. Hadi Isina džamija 2. Hasan Čelebijina džamija 3. Derviš - begova džamija 4. Kasim - pašina džamija 5. Kavuklu Mehmed - pašina džamija 6. Kurd - pašina džamija 7. Maksud - begova džamija 8. Omer - Čaušova džamija 9. Hadži - Mustafa džamiija 10. Hasan - Sivrijina džamija 11. Derviš Čelebijina džamija 12. Hoda Budakova džamija 13. Kurd - begova džamija 14. Lemi - begova džamija 15. Mehmed - begova džamija 16. Pir - Mehmedova džamija James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Official List
From the offical site : http://www.komuna-prizreni.org/?page=3,162

Džamije Prizrena: 1.- Kërëk Džamija 1455 2.- Sozijeva Džamija 1412-1413 3.- Jakup Beg Evrenozina džamija 1526 4.- Kuklibegova džamija 1534 5.- Kuklibegova džamija 1543 6.- Mehmet pašina(Bajrakli) džamija 1545 1573/74 7.- Muderis Ali Efendina džamija (Dž. Ali Hodže) 1543-1581 nastradala je od požara 1975.godine 8.- Hadži Kasemova (Toska) džamija 1526/3 9.- Maksut pašina džamija 1566 10.- Sejdi Begova džamija 1566 11.- Terzijska džamija 1721 12.- Markëlëèova džamija (tabakhana) 1808 13.- Sinan Pašina džamija 1615 14.- Emin Pašina (Rotle) džamija 1831/2 15.- Džamija Mustaf Paše Prizrenskog 1562/3 16.- Sejdi begova džamija 1650 17.- Hoèa Mahalina džamija (Mahmud Paše) 1833 18.- Hdži Ramadanova džamija XVIII 19.- Sinan Èatipova džamija (kratka džamija) 1591 20.- Džamija novog naselja 1538 21.- Dragomanska džamija XVIII 22.- Tabakhanina džamija XVIII 23.- Mala džamija 1918 24.- Džamija Kaljaje 1828 porušena je 1912 godine 25.- Biljbiderina džamija – porušena je za vreme stare Jugoslavije 26.- Begzadina džamija 1689 27.- Džuma džamija 1455 28.- Budak hodžina džamija XVIII Tekije: 1.- Heljveti Baba Osman iz Serezija        1699/70 2.- Sinani                                                  1576 ili 1589/90 3.- Sinani                                                  1668 ili 1706 1.- Sinani 2.- Kaderi – Zindžirlji                                1646 ili 1665 3.- Saad 4.- Rufai                                                    1893 5.- Bektaši                                                 1850 6.- Melami                                                 1892 7.- Kaderi Rezaki                                      1830 Turbe 1.- Dalgën Babe 2.- Tezdžir Babe 3.- Džafer Babe 4.- Murad Babe 5.- Ymer Babe 6.- Velji Babe 7.- Kaljender Babe 8.- Sozija 9.- Gazi Mehmed Paše 10.- Musa Kutuib babe 11.- Šeh Alji Koro 12.- Šeh Sulejmana 13,- Šeh Osmana 14.- Mahmud Efendije 15.- Redžep Efendije 16.- Devojaèka 17.- Šeh Husejina 18.- Mustafa Lalo Kryezi – Karabaš Baba Pravoslavne Crkve 1.- Sveti Petka 2.- Manastir Sveti Arhangel  Mihajlo i Gabriel 3.- Crkva Svetog Spasa 4.- Crkva Svetog Nikole u dvor.Osnov.škole Prizrenska Liga 5.- Crkva Svetog Trinija 6.- Crkva Svetog Nikole – Papa èaršija 7.- Crkva Svetog Djordja 8.- Velika Crkva Svetog Djordja 9.- Ispovedaèka crkva Svetog Nikole i Svetog Petka Katolièke Crkve 1.- Crkva Svete Marije 2.- Crkva Svetog Petra 3.- Crkva podizanja gospe na nebu 4.- Crkva Svete Ane 5.- Crkva svetice ispomoèi James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

neutrality and stuff
I have marked this article for bias and cleanup for the reason that it is a heavily serbian arrticle. Prizren has a huge ottoman history and I am just starting to tap into that viewpoint. We need to bring in the turkish and albanian ottoman history and sources into this article. There is also not enough coverage of the second league of prizren. Additionaly there were italian forces in prizren that we need to document. James Michael DuPont (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you even realize that you created total mess and chaos in article? If it needs to be expanded, then do that, and dont just stuff it with numerous bad, invalid sources, pictures, without thumbs and captions, and 1000 tags. I give up. This article is destroyed. Hope that someone will have patience and will to explain you, all, all over again, how to edit wikipedia. I dont. -- WhiteWriter speaks 18:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Not all Viewpoints Third_opinion
This article is missing important information about the time of the Sanjak Bey, when prizren was the seat of the Sanjak Prizren and the people who ruled it. Also It is missing important names from the Turkish, Albanian and Bosnian Population, the mosques in the city have history and webpages in those languages and in order to understand the history of the city, we need to include those names, they are significant. I think that there is not enough neutrality here. we need to include the ottoman history, the albanian and the bosnian history as well, not just the serbian view of the history of prizren. Mr White Water has reverted many of my edits, which were well referenced and researched. I would like a third opinion Third_opinion on this.

-- James Michael DuPont (talk) 07:56, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * None of those things are important. If you want to introduce 15 similar (almost identical) names of one mosque, create a page for that mosque. Sanjak Beys list was unreferenced and irrelevent for this article, as Sanjak were administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire. Your important information of nonexistent Sanjak Prizren (0 google hits) was obviously removed per that. You didn't write ANYTHING regard the relevancy of including that list in article about Prizren. All your sources are or invalid, or does not even mention that info in question. You may see that all "references" i removed was invalid. And one more thing. My nickname is WhiteWriter, not Water, or anything similar, and i think that you do that mistake on purpose (again), just to make laugh of me. Please stop, or i will not have good faith in the future. Me, and numerous other editors talked to you, and explained you basic guidelines and rules on wiki. Please, in the future, first TALK ON TALK PAGE, and after all of us participating agree, edit article. Not all Viewpoints tag is also pointless to me, but i really don't have any wish to comment that, remove it, or anything. We will see, if anyone answeres this 3O, that advice may be helpful for you. Or me? :) :) Anyway, man, all best, just please, talk first, edit after that. Or at least, use talk page for propositions and explanations of your edits. -- WhiteWriter speaks 13:03, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Comments from an uninvolved editor
Hi; I came here in response to your request at WP:3O. What exactly would you like to add to the article? I think there are currently some wider problems with the article (including the overwhelming table full of pictures of mosques). I don't think it's appropriate to have lots of different redlinked names for the same entity. Looking at a broader perspective, I think the article would benefit from broader coverage of Ottoman history (for instance, the League of Prizren only gets one sentence), but this should be appropriately sourced. I would also remind both of you to try to be civil. You're mostly civil, and that's good, but any article in the Balkans can quickly turn into trench warfare, and none of us benefits from that; so try to focus on potential compromises and on positive ways to move the article forward. bobrayner (talk) 18:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The table with pictures of cultural things includes mosques, and there are an overwhelming number of them in prizren. I did not create the table, but added subsections for all the items of cultural importance, there is an official list of them. I would exactly like to add for one the history of the Sanjak bey, the leader of the sandjak that was repeatedly removed. and also I want to add the bosnian, turkish and albanian alternative names for places so that you can find them. They have a wide number of names. I have sourced all my work and it is getting removed by mr white, this is a constant problem with that editor, he tends to delete anything that is not serbian. You can see the list of places I am trying to add here User:Mdupont/List_of_Serbian_Cutural_Monuments/Prizren and Timeline_of_Kosovo_history James Michael DuPont (talk) 14:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply.
 * There's an overwhelming number of chip-shops in Preston and bars in Philadelphia, but we don't have to yield acres of screen-space to each of them! If the many mosques of Prizren are notable as a subject in their own right, it might be a good idea to split them off into a separate article..?
 * On the linguistic point, I would agree that we need to reflect the varying linguistic/ethnic history and that may include different languages at times. However, having several different language-variant redlinks for one subject would be silly (normally we use redirects for that) and whittling down variants to only Serbian, contrary to common usage, would be even worse.
 * I think that the sanjak is well worth some discussion; Prizren was for some time the capital of an administrative region (which is currently redlinked). I'm not sure that most of the coverage in this article needs to go to one leader, but if he's prominent/notable then he's certainly worth a mention.
 * It doesn't seem to have caused a problem yet, but we need to be clear about the difference between a term for a type of territorial division, versus one specific place which got this label - Sanjak versus Sandžak - a distinction which is muddied by variant spellings &c. (cf Herzegovina) bobrayner (talk) 16:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, of course all those redlinks need to be fixed. but these places are of cultural value and are important to be understood, they show up on very many cultural hertitage lists. My rational is to create subsections instead of new articles. well based on your comments, I see that I have a mandate to continue working on this, what do you say White Writer? James Michael DuPont (talk) 06:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Picture of the Shadervan in 1943 at the time of the Second League of Prizren
Prizren League was established after the Italian capitulation (september 1943) and German occupation. I think that I can see the back of an Italian soldier (upper left part, recognizable cap and belt on his back) on this picture. That means that it can not be the picture "Picture of the Shadervan in 1943 at the time of the Second League of Prizren" like stated in the description of the picture, because Italian soldier could not be there.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

That picture cannot be dated to 1943. It shows "Arasta" (closed) bazaar, that bazaar existed until ca. 1916 when it was burned. Consequently the picture is much older than 1943. --arpagjiki (talk) 22:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe not. I think there is Italian flag on the left to the Albanian flag. The only period when Italia had its flag in Prizren was period of WWII, 1941 — 1943. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:08, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems we are talking about different pictures :). I was referring to the "View of the city ca 1940" picture, that picture is older than 1940 for the reasons i stated above. But you are correct for the picture you are referring, it shows celebrations of 28 November (Albanian Flag day) during Italian occupation. --arpagjiki (talk) 06:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If that was picture of celebration of 28 November during Italian occupation, then it can not be in 1943 because Italia capitulated in September 1943. If I am right, I should delete at the time of the Second League of Prizren from its caption.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Albania?
For the love of God, is this a joke?—95.180.72.208 (talk) 10:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Meh. Prizren may not be within the current-day borders of Albania, but that's not all that a wikiproject might be interested in. Prizren certainly has great significance in Albanian history (if we can distinguish between the people and the modern state) so if folk from that wikiproject consider it in-scope, I don't object, although it would be better to include specific historical articles instead (ie. the League of Prizren). bobrayner (talk) 13:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Albanians before 6th century
With this edit User:ZjarriRrethues added assertion about Albanian presence on the Balkans before 6th century. Since there is scientific consensus that Albanians are first time mentioned in history in 11th century and taking in the consideration that there are many different disputed theories about the origin of Albanians I propose to revert this edit.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:24, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * O, my dear god... Yes, of course, support removal of this POV, POV material. And support even more after his buddies removal of this "highly selective history". Just to be replaced with this nationalistic nonsense. -- WhiteWriterspeaks 22:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Albanians are descendants of Paleo-Balkanic peoples and their language is (along with modern Greek) the last surviving native language of the area, so your comment about the Albanian presence is rather unknowledgeable. Additionally, the fact that the first undisputed mention (the unverifiable/disputed claim would be the Albanoi of Ptolemy) about them comes from the 11th century (Acropolites) has nothing to with their geographical location i.e. stick to the sources, which don't draw such parallels nor do they connect these issues in your proposed manner not to mention that I used the University of Cambridge source as precisely as possible. That being said, many consider that the gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of Ducagini d'Arbania in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit.. Btw labeling the sources (University of Cambridge) as nationalistic nonsense is the least prudent course of dispute resolution regardless of the overall lack of legitimacy of your concerns.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:53, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with ZR on this point. Albanian language is derived from PaleoBalkan languages. The "disputed theories" do not deny or contradict the fact that Albanians derive from PaleoBalkan populations. They simply differ on the PaleoBalkan group (either Illyrian or Thraco-Dacian). While the majority of the linguists and the traditional view is that Albanian has derived from Illyrian, there are also other linguists who think differently, Georgiev being the most prominent figure (conjecturing a Dacian origin). I suppose user Antid has not read Georgiev, because even Georgiev puts the "supposed Daco-Mysian" ancestors of Albanians in Albania and Kosovo in the second millennium BC (2000 BC) or at the latest, in the first half of first millennium BC. (500-1000BC) "This opinion upheld in many of his deeds has been repeated by Georgiev in his paper read in the First Congress of Illyrian Studies (Tirana 1972), in which (p. 32) he has not at all excluded the possibility of the Illyrian origin of Albanian. According to the assumption sustained by Georgiev, "Daco-Mysian tribes gradually migrated to the northern central part of the Balkan Peninsula, approximately to Dardania, probably in the second millennium B.C. (or not later than the first half of the first millenium B.C) and thence they migrated to the areas of present Albania" Georgiev (1960, 15 sq.) sustains his hypothesis by the following main arguments:...." link. So either Illyrian or Dacian, the presence of the ancestors of Albanians in those areas before 6th century AD is undisputed. I would like the participants to read more on the subject before making any further comment. Aigest (talk) 07:51, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Noticeboard
I have reported the fighting and media removal on this article to the admins Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents James Michael DuPont (talk) 11:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

History
I'm trying to update the history section but User:Antidiskriminator has reverted them for some reason, why? I've quoted people from the time, it is all referenced properly. I've made sure there was no copy editing. I was about to do a section on WW1 and the Bulgarian occupation from 1916-17 to include the starvation and murder of Archbishop Mjeda. But that'll probably be reverted too. IJA (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Your edits are direct violation of WP:NPOV. They give undue weight to outdated and/or non-neutral unreliable sources which present some people as particularly bad and other particularly good, based on their ethnicity. Please don't continue with it. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:07, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * How is it in violation of NPOV? These are facts of things which happened historically in Prizren. What is an unreliable source? They are accounts from the time. Why should we censor oppression of people during the period? What is wrong with mentioning living standards during the period? You have reverted useful encyclopaedic history. IJA (talk) 16:13, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Antidiskriminator, stop this deception and pov-pushing. Bring the article closer in line with reliable sources is a Good Thing, not a Bad Thing. bobrayner (talk) 16:35, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Why can't we mention that atrocities happened? Why can't we mention that people fled the region? What's next, shouldn't we mention the Holocaust because it makes Germans look "particularly bad"? This seems to be a case of I just don't like it. I've been neutral by informing the reader who has said it and when. IJA (talk) 16:39, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * When I wrote the first comment at this talkpage I wrote also this text "We both know that very soon a small group of editors will arrive and circumvent the normal process of reaching consensus on Kosovo related articles so I don't intend to participate in further discussion here." Then I deleted this part of comment and decided to write it in a couple of minutes. So here it is. All the best!--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:44, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Accusations of some kind of conspiracy are a bit rich, coming from an editor who has so often indulged in this in the past. Those days are over; less deception, less cheating, less offsite canvassing, less tag-teaming. We will reach consensus, in line with wikipedia policies, and that is why the article is going to change. Well, that and the fact that more of the pov-pushers are blocked or banned nowadays. bobrayner (talk) 17:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I've got round to updating Prizren in WW1, I suppose that is in violation of NPOV because it makes Bulgarians look "particularly bad" and Serbs look "particularly good"? IJA (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm dyslexic and I can't always see my own grammar mistakes, could someone proof read it and fix any grammar mistakes please? IJA (talk) 17:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Name
I did added both versions of the name, as we have two. Its not legitimet to remove one version in this articles with sources. -- Ąnαșταη  ( ταlκ )  18:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

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 * It's OK.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  17:23, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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 * It's OK.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  17:23, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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Nenad Stojković
Was he a basketball player or a football player as claimed in the article?  Vanjagenije  (talk)  16:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

World Heritage Site
Can you give some example for UNESCO WH labels used for cities that contain individual monuments (in the case there is one such monument in the city)? London contain four World Heritage sites, yet I don't see the template on London. Cologne has Cologne Cathedral, but no template.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  20:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Zadar, Brescia as part of transnational or multi-site heritage sites. I didn't assume it was so sensitive to place a tag that is just informative and stresses the historical and cultural relevance of monuments. The tag is not intended to support or dismiss any political stance on the disputed status of the area. Regards. 82.52.200.37 (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * In any case, there are minor edits on spelling / transliteration, formatting, size of images etc. that are not relevant to the UNESCO tag. While you might disagree on the tag, please do not remove automatically all other edits. Regards. 82.52.200.37 (talk) 20:53, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Zadar and Brescia are quite different. None of those two is an example of a single city with single World Heritage Site. In the case of Zadar, the WHS is the "Defensive System of Zadar" which is not one, but a group of buildings that do not have it's own article. In the case of Brescia, the city center with several buildings is part of the WHS. On the other case, Visoki Dečani is a single building with its own article, and it's not even in the city proper but near the city. I never said the template is intended to support or dismiss any political stance. I just think it is useless to place a template about one subject on the article about other subject.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  12:30, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

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