Talk:Proclamation of the German Empire

Title translation
Hi there and thanks for translating this article from German Wikipedia. Looking at the title, I was wondering if it would not make sense to change it to something like "Founding of the German Empire" as per WP:TRANSLITERATE and WP:COMMONNAME. I'd wonder if a native English speaker would ever use the German phrase to find out more about the founding of the german empire? Would a German search for "declaration of independence" on German Wikipedia or for "Amerikanische Unabhängigkeitserklärung"? pseudonym Jake Brockman talk

. Hi there and thanks for the comments. I did think about it and tried to amend it but was unable to. thanks Lcepoge1 (talk) 17:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * done. pseudonym Jake Brockman talk 17:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Merge proposal
This new article appears to substantially be a duplicate of Unification of Germany. I propose that any unique material included in this article that is pertinent to the topic and well referenced be merged into Unification of Germany, which is over ten years old, much better referenced, currently about three times as long, and has FA status. Mathglot (talk) 23:50, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Support – Merging makes sense because the core subject is the same, although this article is a bit more focused on the founding event than on the geopolitical context. Use the best prose in the merged version. — JFG talk 02:51, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Support - See above argument by JFG. – Vami _IV✠  14:24, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Opppose, remove duplicate material instead. This article could be focused on the events directly connected to the proclamation of the empire, and be more detailed than what can be added to the (already long) article at Unification of Germany. —Kusma (t·c) 09:29, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose I agree with Kusma, this article should have/has a much smaller scope than Unification of Germany. It could probably be renamed Proclamation of the German Empire, and linked in a "For more information on this topic see.." from Unification of Germany, because it can be so much more detailed. menaechmi (talk) 14:09, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It might benefit this article to have the redundant parts gutted, and a hatnote, which would let this article remove most of the background/history and focus on the more specific aspect. menaechmi (talk) 13:54, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with Kusma --Lineagegeek (talk) 19:49, 8 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment – Given the other editors' rationales, I would also agree to remove redundant information and keep this article focused on the proclamation event. I'm just afraid there would not be much left... and then come the article on paintings (see below). — JFG talk 06:26, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * COMMENT Has anyone moved content or edited any articles to support either of the options listed above? Either merge or re-scope of the existing article? GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 20:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've moved the title from "Founding of" to "Proclamation of", since there is overwhelming agreement that the former was problematic. I therefore oppose a merger, given that the scope is now limited to this one-day event. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:31, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This is better (Fitzcarmalan's solution). I'd also suggest removing most of the redundant material.  Unification of German took place over time, leading up to the proclamation, and then extending beyond it.  The proclamation was a one-day event. What happened before and after is the "unification".  I'll be happy to do this if no one else wants to.  auntieruth (talk) 17:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

This has been hanging around for almost a year. I've removed what appears to be the redundant material and saved it below. It still needs a good copy edit, and sources. It reads like a machine translation. Let me know if I've overstepped. Thanks auntieruth (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, I believe the issue is solved. Will remove the tag. I also renamed the "(painting)" article to "(paintings)" because there are several, and fixed incoming links there. — JFG talk 08:40, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Disputed title
The common name for this in English is Proclamation of the German Empire. However, there is currently an article with that title, which is about paintings of the event. The paintings are clearly secondary, and the event itself, the proclamation of Empire, is the primary topic. If retained (see above), this article should be renamed Proclamation of the German Empire and the article on the paintings should be called Proclamation of the German Empire (painting). (Or, '...(paintings)', since the term applies to more than one painting.) Mathglot (talk) Mathglot (talk) 23:52, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Removed text duplicated in other article
The founding of the German Empire was not a single act which could be clearly distinguished from others. There are several definitions in literature which can be divided into four periods. However, authors are not always consistent with their distinctions. It also originated from the specific theme or structure of publication. It is not, in itself, a contradiction, on the one hand, to speak of a chronologically very limited foundation of the German Empire in 1871. On the other hand, often a "Reichgründungsepoche", or "Age of the German Founding" is spoken of, which can often be classified with the German revolutions of 1848 and 1849.

Michael Stürmer concentrated on Bismarck in his "Die Reichsgründung" and the years 1866 to 1878 (from the Austro-Prussian War to the Congress of Berlin). It dates back however to the Holy Roman Empire. The actual historic event begins in 1848/1849. The result of the revolution was a "hovering state", "no return to that order which had collapsed like a map house in March 1848, a blockade of central European nationalisation". The "Reichsgründungsepoche" ended during the second half of the 1870s, according to Stürmer with the foreign policy concerning the consolidation of the Empire. Similar to Stürmer, Frank Lorenz Müller posed the same question with clearly answering it: ""Effective 1848/49, at the beginning of a period of transformation between 1845 and 1871, which brought the breakthrough of political, economic and social modernity? [...] In the summer of 1849, the victory of the counter-revolution had caused neither deadly stagnation nor cemetery rest. Germany remained in a state of flux""

The "Founding of the German Empire" was briefly described at the turn of the 1870 into 1871. Ernst Rudolf Huber describes the time from the imperial plan of 1870 on the beginning of wain in July, the so-called November Treaties, the constitution of the German Confederation from 1 January, "the establishment of the imperial organs", including the imperial proclamation and the Reichstag election in March until the new constitution of April 1871. It was precisely the imperial proclamation of 18 January 1871 that "in the minds of the Germans, the actual Reichsgründungsakt remained", says Theodor Schieder. Andreas Kaernbach complains that: ""In understandable joy about the founding of the German Empire [...] the time of the German and the North German Confederation appeared to many as merely a pre-history of the foundation of the Empire, as a transitory stage, but not as an epoch of its own historical weight.""

Various publications include the North German Confederation and its immediate past history. Then, there were the years of 1866 and 1871. A decisive event was the Prussian victory at Hradec Kralove, which ended the Austro-Prussian dualism. The Second Schleswig War (1864 - Einigungskriege") was accepted as a starting point. Some authors claim the start to be the "Reichsgründungsjahrzehnt" (Decade of the Founding of the German Empire) when the German National Association was founded in 1859. In the prolongation until 1878, others also speak of the Liberal era. The years around 1878 are also called the "Second Founding of the German Empire" because a new "alliance between harrow and furnace" was formed between entrepreneurs of heavy industry and the feudal elite.

Other authors also speak of a "Reichsgründungszeit" or "Reichsgründsungsepoche" (Time of the Founding of the Empire), or of a "way to founding the empire", meaning the period between 1848/49 and 1871. Christian Jansen sees the revolutions of 1848/49 as being the "initial firing for the establishment of the founding of the national state" also because of political parties being formed at that time. In this view, the Frankfurt Constitution of 1849 was recognised as the first attempt at reconciliation. In the period between 1848 and 1866/1871, dualism was recognised as a problem for the formation of national states and (by war) solved just as much as the First Schleswig War. Bismarck was active politically in 1848/49 and had proven himself to be concerned with the constitutions of the time. The road to the Erfurt Union, with the election of a constituent assembly agreed by the princes, was the model used to found the Federal German Republic in 1867. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auntieruth55 (talk • contribs) 14:46, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

The governments of southern German states, the Grand Duchy of Baden, the Grand Duchy of Hesse, the Kingdom of Württemberg and the Kingdom of Bavaria, differed greatly in their unity. This was partly not to prevent a large German solution or to maintain one's own sovereignty.

The Grand Duchy of Baden was unconditionally behind the agreement. Grand Duke Frederick I and Prime Minister Julius Jolly articulated requests for membership on 3 September 1870. They had already applied for membership to the North German Confederation in 1867 and repeatedly in the spring of 1870, which the Northern German Reichstag rejected on Bismarck's action for foreign policy considerations.

The Kingdom of Württemberg was largely German-Austrian oriented. Under the influence of the Württemberg German Party, the Cabinet under the rule of Charles I of Württemberg sent an envoy to the German headquarters in France on 12 September to conduct negotiations with the North German Confederation about an association.

The government of the Grand Duchy of Hesse was rather largely German. However, the province of Upper Hesse, located north of the river Main and the troops of the rest of the Grand Duchy (Hesse south of the Main) belonged to the North German Confederation, which constituted a certain constraint for the government under Grand Duke Louis III. The population and the successor to the throne, the later Louis IV, also supported the Lesser German solution. Accordingly, the government abandoned the Great German idea and entered into negotiations with the North German Confederation.

Of all four sovereign states, the Kingdom of Bavaria was most opposed to German unity. King Louis II was always concerned about independence. It had been promised by Prussian King Wilhelm to keep their independence and integrity. Under the influence of the Bavarian Progressive Party under Marquad Barth, the chamber was largely for German unity. In order to not be isolated, Bavaria entered negotiations with the proposal of a constitutional alliance. This constitutional alliance led to the formation of a new federation with a new federal constitution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auntieruth55 (talk • contribs) 14:56, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

The founding of the Empire refers only to the constitutional and, above all, the political-psychological aspect: the subject of international law, whose territory was extended to the German Confederation by the November Treaties of 1870, and then renamed the "Deutsches Reich", had existed since the North German Confederation had been converted from a military alliance into a federal state in 1867.

The Constitution of the German Confederation, in the version released on 1 January 1871, was followed by an edited version on 16 April 1871, which today is usually referred to as Bismarck's constitution. This finally came into force on 4 May 1871, retroactively to 1 January of that year.

The founding of the Empire had to therefore be examined at various levels, a legal, a parliamentary, and a symbolic level, with the imperial proclamation on 18 January reflecting the symbolic level of acceptance of imperial dignity. Michael Kotulla states that "however, the symbolic character of this act, which was certainly perceived by the public as the birth of the empire, but which was statelessly irrelevant, remained true." This symbolic motion corresponded to the actual reality of the enlarged covenant and now the whole of Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auntieruth55 (talk • contribs) 14:46, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

The Hall of Mirrors in Versailles combined the foundation of the German empire on 18 January 1871 with the victory in the war and was determined by the dominance of uniforms and demonstration of a military state. Principal authorieis, national cabinets, and Prussia's military power led the new empire. The empire of 1871 was nevertheless "much at the same time: federal state, constitutional state, imperial state, Prussian hegemonic state, power and military state, above all it was a nation state." The war of France against the North German Confederation and the armies with its confederated southern German states had given strong impetus to the national movement throughout Germany, even though it had not yet been unified to a federal state. It gave the last impetus to the state agreement and on that date the state was proclaimed and celebrated on the ground of the almost defeated opponent. The mood amongst Germans was said to have been passionate on the day of the Emperor's proclamation, while the Emperor himself was more humble. Wilhelm I, who had already grown old, had, in his own opinion, "to exchange the brilliant Prussian crown for a dirt-crust" when he was communicating with his son, Frederick III. He described it as a great misfortune, which he had to bear, because the national interest demanded it of him. In a letter to his wife Augusta, in which he also described the military proclamation, he complained that he ousted the Prussian title.

The fact that the end of the war was the final step towards German unity appears to be an immediate victory for the people's movement, but had to concern many other aspects. Before the German princes, ministers, diplomats and generals who were present in Versailles, a proclamation to the German people, which was read by Bismarck, proclaimed the acceptance of the German imperial dignity by the King of Prussia. The civilian parliamentarians hardly played a role but the bourgeois national movement was a constituent element of the founding of the empire and therefore the empire itself. Hagen Schulze wrote that "the German empire was certainly united by blood and iron, not by means of speeches and majority resolutions, but nothing led to success which in the long run was opposed to mass nationalism."

In accordance with these circumstances, however, the empire was founded before the German Reichstag had the chance to discuss the future constitution. Only a parliamentary address to the Prussian King recommended the reestablishment of imperial dignity to him. The wish of a national state, which was called for by the broad masses of people, had to be fulfilled but only by considering many factors. Among other things, the hegemony of Prussia, the position of the federated states, the maintenance of a strong monarchy, the concession of a weaker national democracy were decisive factors in the empire. The event which was alien to place and time was due to the need to use a moment when neither the domestic or foreign policy opponents of a Prussian-German national state were capable of decisive resistance.

In essence, there were two points which spoke for the purpose of completing the foundation of the empire as quickly as possible. On the one hand, the new empire was to be founded and proclaimed during the war, because the particularism of the southern German states were weakened and neither Austria nor France were able to help the southern states. Austria had been depleted and almost incapable of action during the Austro-Prussian War (in which both powers had fought for the leading role in the German Confederation) and France were weakened by the still ongoing Franco-Prussian War. The Bavarian government had emphasised its sovereignty at the beginning of the Franco-Prussian War and did not want to sacrifice anything essential. But even the decision makers from the Kingdom of Bavaria came to the realisation during the middle of September that they had to enter into a national alliance for reasons of foreign and domestic policy.

On the other hand, it was at the time of Prussia to observe the external political situation in principle and to use the moment. France's power was indeed broke, but as the war drew, and the French sought allies to form a counterweight to the Prussian-German expansion. They appealed to England, Russia, Austria-Hungary and Italy, who had established themselves as a so-called League of Neutrals in late summer. France's role during the last phase before the war broke out and was declared by France against Prussia had initially led to the war being limited to Germany and France, and other European powers not interfering. The Germans, however, had raised their annexation demands against France, while France had signalled peace and the acceptance of a Prussian solution to the German Question, but insisted on defending its territorial borders. This also changed the fundamental sentiment within Europe and a criticism of the now expansive claims of Prussia and the German states were not lacking. An intervention of the still neutral great powers against Germany were by no means ruled out at this time, but at this moment, there was no unanimity amongst the neutrals. Austria was more inclined to reach an agreement with Prussia in order to absorb the attraction of the new empire to the Germans of Austria and perhaps gain support for their own Balkan politics. The Russian Empire, initially at the beginning of the war, and partly due to the defeat previously suffered in the Crimean War, then took advantage of the start of the Franco-Prussian War to bring about the so-called "Pontus Clause" of the Paris Peace Treaty, which neutralised countries around the Black Sea. In the first place, the United Kingdom attacked the Russian empire and thus prevented a joint action by Tsarist Russia and Great Britain against Prussia. The conclusion of the unification of Italy was also in favour of France, against a European front, for Italy took advantage of France's defeat in the Franco-Prussian War without encountering decisive resistance. France had previously been forced to withdraw protection groups. Thus, Prussia was able to prevent a "Europeanisation of the German Question". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auntieruth55 (talk • contribs) 14:57, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

The choice of the historic location of Versailles for German unification cemented Franco-German enmity for decades. Of all the European powers, France was the most affected by German unification. In contrast to the advocates of the French Revolution, who had attempted to build up their new state on the basis of a popular movement and the will of the people, which ended under the rule of the Jacobins in terror, the Prussian and later German leadership showed a contrasting way of founding a new empire on 18 January 1871. On this day, the contrast became visible between the "will act of the nation" itself, the failed German revolution of 1848 and the real foundation of the Empire, which had been the work of fewer men and Prussian power as a result of diplomatic action. The head of this new empire was crowned not by the German people but by the rulers of the individual states and remained a ruler of God's grace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auntieruth55 (talk • contribs) 14:57, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

Germany was founded as a unified German national state, although the empire still consisted of many partly sovereign states each with its own citizenship. The nationality was linked to the nationality of the federal states. This meant it was acquired by nationality and expired with its loss. Since then, a German citizen has been a member of the German nationality.

According to the constitution of 16 April 1871, the German Empire constituted the following member states:

The federal territory of Alsace-Lorraine was incorporated by law on 25 June 1873 to the German empire and from 1911 onwards was represented in the Bundesrat as an area which was to be directly apprehended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auntieruth55 (talk • contribs) 14:57, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

End of collapsed section. Mathglot (talk) 09:49, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Bismarck quote
I removed the Bismarck quote, because it was gobbledygook. Please do not use machine translation in this article, as it is considered worse than nothing. The previous translation:

""We take the imperial dignity in the consciousness of duty to protect in German fidelity the rights of the Empire and its members, to maintain peace, to defend the independence of Germany, supported by the united power of its people. We accept them in the hope that the German people will be allowed to enjoy the wages of their hot and self-sacrificing struggles in lasting peace and within the confines which give to the Fatherland the security which has been lacking for centuries, against renewed attacks by France. But to us and to our successors to the imperial crown, God would always lend us to be benefactor and improver of the German Empire, not in warlike conquests, but in goods and gifts of peace in the field of national prosperity, freedom and order.""

My German is not at professional level by any means, but even I can do a better job, than that monstrosity. Here's my version of the first sentence: "We assume the title of Emperor, fully conscious, in allegiance to Germany, of our duty to protect the rights of the Empire and of its subjects, to maintain the peace, and to defend German independence, backed by the united force of its people."

But I'm not claiming that that's fully accurate either; there's some tricky syntax in the original (not at all unusual for German), and it would benefit by a translation by someone with strong German skills. Mathglot (talk) 03:42, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, there's a translation here, in the second half of the second paragraph. The translation is apparently from 1899, so presumably out of copyright and usable, though I find it a bit stuffy; also, they've inserted some connecting words not in the original, but that's possibly okay. Anyway, we could use it as a starting point. Mathglot (talk) 03:55, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Versailles
Did the proclamation at Versailles intend Versailles (or most probably the whole of France) to also be part of the German Empire or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.249.44.172 (talk) 08:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

"Accounts from Eyewitness" lacks sources and is poorly written.
The lengthy second paragraph appears to be the work of a runaway writer. The phrasing is very unclear and on the whole unsourced. Propose that it be brought up to standard or else removed. 212.129.87.251 (talk) 15:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree, there is a singular source, and the prose is inconsistent and reads as though it was translated by Google. I made a singular change before realizing the entire section has errors and omissions throughout. The source must be consulted to correct it or the section removed. 2601:603:4C81:4A30:CC99:CAFA:CF46:8425 (talk) 08:33, 19 January 2024 (UTC)