Talk:Production car speed record

Notes for editors

 * Discussion and determination on the 20 car limit
 * The most recent review of the 20 car limit

Cars excluded from the list together with basic reason
Many of these cars have been debated on this articles talk pages. Should more detailed reasoning be required refer to the relevant discussion or raise the issue on the talk page.

Chiron SS 300+
"Bugatti Chiron Super Sport 300+ (pre-production prototype)	490.48 km/h (304.77 mph)"

So how fast does the production version go? Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 11:37, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * A good question - no road test to date.NealeWellington (talk) 23:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Independent measurement?
In the section "top speed measurement" it's written that "the measurement must be done independently". And in fact it is just the opposite. An independent measurement is carried out by the manufacturer itself, such as the Dauer 962 LM in 1998, carried out by the VW group, which helped to develop the car, and therefore, it is not endowed with reliability. 177.91.76.194 (talk) 00:31, 20 August 2022 (UTC)


 * "Independent" means not the manufacturer, nor any entity that is related to the manufacturer. Therefore, it is impossible for a manufacturer or the parent company to do an independent test.  Stepho  talk 00:59, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

But on this same page it says that the Dauer 962 LM reached 404.6 kph, measured independently in Ehra-Lessien, which suggests that the measurement was carried out by the VW group itself (as Porsche helped to develop the car), and for this reason it is unreliable. So we see that "independent measurement" can have two divergent meanings. The most correct, then, would be to say that "the measurement must be carried out by one or more independent companies", so as not to leave room for double interpretations. Eduardo César Schmidt (talk) 15:08, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * True, the Dauer company is too closely related to VW for that to be an independent measurement. However, there is also a reference to EVO magazine. I don't have that issue and can't find an online copy but there are some hints on the web that EVO made it's own measurements. I can't verify that myself - hopefully somebody else has the EVO September 2003 No. 59 issue. As a counterpoint to my own argument. https://dempseymotorsports.com/1993-dauer-962-le-mans-prototype-road-car/ hints that the EVO article is only repeating Dauer's own claim about the VW measurement.  Stepho  talk 01:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Porsche was not a member of the VW group at the time, Dauer and VW were not related.Drachentötbär (talk) 23:59, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Legally Porsche and VW were separate entities at that time. But they collaborated on so many things that Porsche was practically the sports division of VW in almost every other sense from the very beginning. See Porsche.  Stepho  talk 00:44, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * No, they were not that close. Porsche was not "practically the sports division of VW" in 1998 when the top speed was measured, else the Audi R8 (LMP) wouldn't have happened. I don't know of any collaboration in racing. EVO wrote that the car had been "independently measured at 404.6kph" as fact, not as quote: https://porschecarshistory.com/wp-content/old/962/03/DAUER2096220LM2003.jpgDrachentötbär (talk) 02:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Transparency
If a car company played a major role in the creation of the rules we should be honest and mention it. Drachentötbär (talk) 01:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * That was covered when they made some suggestions and is noted at the top of the talk page - their edits were independently checked and agreed at the time. NealeWellington (talk) 00:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Dauer 962 LM has VIN and WMI by Dauer.
We have confirmed VINs TP99620133, TP99620141, TP99620151, TP99620172, TP99620175.

The VINs with WMI TP9 are not not from Porsche so they must be from Dauer. Drachentötbär (talk) 00:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * TP numbers are from the Czech Republic - this article 1993 DAUER 962 LE MANS PROTOTYPE ROAD CAR points to these cars being prototypes so if that is the case then they are ineligible. Nice cars though. NealeWellington (talk) 03:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The cars using those VINs were sold to Brunei, they weren't prototypes. Dauer was located in Nuremberg, which is quite close to Czechia, which might explain the Czech VIN. Both the TP and the 9 for small manufacturers don't fit to Porsche.  Drachentötbär (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is quite clear in stating that the car setting the speed record was a prototype which automatically excludes it from this list unfortunately.NealeWellington (talk) 23:40, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The article states "it is believed that this prototype car was the one that was used for the speed record ... but we are still chasing down photos and details of this speed record attempt to confirm these details."
 * Tests of prototypes with the same specification as the production car are allowed on this list (the McLaren F1 entry is based on the XP5 prototype), so if there are no significant changes which affect top speed it should qualify. Drachentötbär (talk) 19:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like the Dauer's had no consistent specification, as the article notes differences in bodies and transmissions. What we need to try to establish is whether on matched the prototype. I'll keep searching but the information looks pretty scarce. NealeWellington (talk) 00:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It's sufficient if the same specs were available for buying. The body differences found in article don't affect aerodynamics significantly and it wouldn't make sense for Dauer not to offer the record car gearing to customers. Drachentötbär (talk) 22:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Mclaren F1 vs Dauer 962LM
The fact that the Dauer 962 is on the list does not exclude the Mclaren F1, as the Mclaren's 355 kph record was broken much earlier. Eduardo César Schmidt (talk) 18:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


 * At Mclaren F1 it says the 355 km/h speed in 1994 was by the magazine Car and Driver. The reference link is no longer valid, so I cannot verify any details. Specifically, was it in road trim (eg no special tyres, no modifications, no removal of weight), was it an averaged 2-way run, and was it recorded by an official body.  Stepho  talk 23:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


 * So it should be on the list. Eduardo César Schmidt (talk) 21:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Not without references from reliable sources. See WP:FACT and WP:RS. We need supporting references for the speed and also that it was an unmodified car (stock tyres, no weight removal, etc), was it a 2-way run, was it recorded by an official body (not by the manufacturer), etc.  Stepho  talk 21:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * What about F1’s two-way run in March 1998? The Element 911 (talk) 19:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Do you mean Andy Wallace's run in the XP5 prototype? Prototypes are not production cars unless you have a reference that it is substantially the same as the production version. There is the usual grey area about what changes are permissible - eg changing body colour and interior trim is fine but changes to shape, weight, engine, gearing, tyres, suspension, etc are not.  Stepho  talk 01:47, 25 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Take a look at Talk:Production car speed record/Archive 7. The test car was a prototype and not the production car. NealeWellington (talk) 04:58, 3 January 2024 (UTC)