Talk:Professional wrestling holds

Reverse chin lock
How about the reverse chin lock? I mean the move where the victim is sitting and the attacking wrestler kneels down and puts then in a chin lock from behind. It's a pretty common move, but not specifically documented here. Maxwell7985 (talk) 20:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

STF-U is STS??
The fact is, Cena does the STS version a few times, mainly during no DQ matches. If you've watched his recent STF-Us, he does the Facelock version. http://www.wwe.com/superstars/raw/johncena/stfuphotos/. Images, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 are facelock. The rest is sleeper holds. It is a facelock much like Benoit's Crippler Crossface. He has also done the sleeper version. But you don't call his Crossface a sleeperhold.
 * Rear naked choke - that isn't a facelock. Notice how Benoit's crossface goes around the face covering the nose and mouth, as seen at Crossface.jpg, while Cena's goes around the neck. Image 6 isn't applied correctly as evidenced by image 7 which shows that it's around the neck and not around the mouth while 8 and 9 you can't see where he's holding Edge because of his hair and Edge facing downwarss, which I might add would be impossible if it was a facelock as facelocks pull back on the head. It's a sleeper hold. --- Lid 01:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Cena's STFU is sold as a facelock. He puts his arms around their necks, but he puts pressure on their jaws and pulls them back much like a crossface, as evident from Cena's recent matches, and as in the pictures mentioned above. Image 7 clearly shows that it was on the jaw area. On the images 8 & 9, it is a facelock, as clearly shown by the way he positioned his arms. The one he did on Angle and Masters are truly chokeholds. In which then we can safely say, it's an STS.


 * It can't be a facelock if it doesn't go around the face or pull back on the face, at best right now from your description it sounds like a Stepover Toehold Rear Chinlock when he uses the clasped hand read naked choke. --- Lid 01:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm checking out the images, especially the ones pointed out, and the only thing I see that might be a facelock is 9, but only because Edges hair is in the way, and judging from 8 it's probably not. -- Bdve 02:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.wwe.com/content/media/video/tvshows/raw/200605/052906/r052906nitrocena?section=%2Fsuperstars%2Fraw%2Fjohncena%2Frawvideos%2F Watch the 0:40 mark. Facelock. http://www.wwe.com/content/media/video/tvshows/raw/200604/2514414/r041006handicap?section=%2Fsuperstars%2Fraw%2Fjohncena%2Fcenavstriplehvids%2F Watch the 2:25 mark. Facelock. And these are from his recent matches. Even from the pictures I have mentioned, there are none that would come across as a Rear naked choke, except 8 & 9, my mistake. -- CWar 03:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Those are both sleeper versions. His arm is around the neck. this is a facelock. Arm around the face.
 * That was me, as is this. -- Bdve 03:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

His arms weren't even on the neck. It was the head, and he pulled it up like the Crossface. I guess you can say it's a chinlock. But it's definately not a sleeper. -- CWar 04:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you seen a sleeper during a restling match? 9/10 they aren't around the neck either because if it is it can be a legitimite bloodchoke. --- Lid 06:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in most wrestling matches, sleeper holds aren't directly applied to the neck, mostly jaw area. But it is given the impression as such because the victim tucks their necks in, so that it looks like he is being choked. Whereas in STF-U's case, especially in the videos and the above mentioned images, the victim's necks are clearly exposed while Cena pulls away at their jaw areas. I am not saying that STF-U isn't a STS. He has done the STS version a couple of times. But there is no way to say that the version he has been doing since about No Way Out is still a STS. -- CWar 06:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not John Cena uses a form of the STS or the STF, it is not relevant to the discussion of the move. Thus, it has no business being in the encyclopedia article since it does not describe the move, its origin, or its place of first fame. Please do not continue putting it in the encyclopedia entry.

I've got a solution so everyone will be happy. How about we say it's an STF or an STS ? (Like in CM Punk's Anaconda Vice, which is either an Anaconda Vice or an Arm Triangle Choke. Kickurass00 21:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not relevant to this article«»bd(talk stalk) 00:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Muta Lock?
I was under the impression that the "Muta Lock" is properly called an "Inverted STF." Because that's pretty much what it is. --Pathogen 08:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In Japan it is called the "Prison Hold." "Inverted STF doesn't work because the move does not involve a stepover toehold, but rather a Reverse Indian Deathlock.

Texas Cloverleaf
The picture used doesn't accurately depict a Cloverleaf.
 * Yeah it is. It's not the best picture of one possible, but it's a Texas Cloverleaf.Bdve 06:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look like a cloverleaf. The wrestler seems to be hooking the wrong leg.83.233.58.40 15:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Inside Cradle & School Boy Pin
I think the different types of pins (including Sunset Flip) need a better spot than just under Misc. considering how frequently they're used and how many there are. And I don't see the very basic Inside Cradle on any wrestling move article. Maybe someone categorized it under a different name, but that seems unlikely. I'm going to add it to Misc. and I may add the School Boy roll up also. If they're already added, you can delete mine and please direct me to where they are. User:Caleson August 1, 2006
 * Pinfall (professional wrestling)Bdve 23:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Surfboard
Rob Van Dam i have a picture of surfboard his chair dropkick to a person seated on the bottom turnbuckle and am very sure it doesn't fit with corner to corner dropkick so where should it go??

TOC to the right?
Should we move the Table of Contents on this page (and other lists like this) over to the right like it is on Pinfall (professional wrestling)? -- bd (talk to me) 03:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That should only be used for pages with a low image count and/or a short length. This one is neither and think it should keep the TOC at it's position. –– Lid(Talk) 04:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Good call on the images, which I didn't even consider. -- bd (talk to me) 04:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Belly to Back Wristlock/Barely Legal
I just added this tonight under Arm locks:

Belly to Back Wristlock

From behind a seated opponent, the attacker pulls upward the opponent's elbow while pushing his palm back into the attacker’s chest. This causes pressure on the opponent’s wrist and potential stretching of the triceps and teres major muscles. The hold was frequently used by Barry Darsow under the name Breaker 1-9 and later as Barely Legal.

I originally had it under the general Arm locks but now put it specifically under Wristlocks. Would this actually constitute as a wristlock, and if not, what should the generic name be? The attacker doesn't actually hold the wrist; he presses it against his own chest while forcing the victim's elbow back. Thanks. Cale 01:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrist Clutch needs to be added.
Wrist Clutch needs to be added in Transition holds

Inverted or Reverse
I was wondering the difference between an inverted move and a reverse move. For example, the indian death lock has 2 modifications on this page. The inverted and reverse indian death locks. However, the reverse indian death lock says it's a modification of an inverted indian death lock. So wouldn't the proper name be a reverse, inverted indian death lock? Thank you.
 * In truth there is no difference. Names of move variations generally depend on the commentator calling them.«»bd(talk stalk) 21:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Although commentators of varying intelligence get these wrong, technically speaking a "Reverse" variation is one in which the motion of the maneuver is the opposite of normal, i.e. Russian Leg Sweep = sweep backwards, Jeff Jarrett's Stroke = sweep forward, so it's a Reverse Russian Lg Sweep. "Inverted" means the motion is performed the same way but the opponent is in the reverse position, i.e. DDT = Falling Front Facelock, Sting's Scorpion Deathdrop = Inverted DDT because the opponent is bent backwards and face-up instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enigmatic2k3 (talk • contribs) 05:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR
Sources need to be added. At the moment this is original research. ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 23:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Airplane Spin
I don't recall seeing it being a fireman's carry as often as I've seen it being used with the opponent in a crucifix position.


 * Different move, the crucifix version is a throw, the spinning crucifix toss. –– Lid(Talk) 12:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Cattle Mutilation
While I love Danielson, Poison Sawada JULIE was doing the sit-down version of the Cattle Mutilation for years before Danielson was even in training, I believe it would be a good idea to mention him, as well as the sitting variation as well. -- Spunk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.252.199.133 (talk) 01:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Six Seconds Magic
How do some people called the Six Seconds Magic properly or techically? jlog3000 (talk) 14:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It looks like a flying arm bar, but if you need to describe it you would have to state that the opponent remains standing ThePurple🤔netalk 12:21, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Cobra Clutch
The cobra clutch is much similar to the sleeper hold, but more like a tazzmision, but you pull the free arm. The most recent cobra clutch that WWE has brought is a move on Smackdown vs Raw 2008

Without wanting to delete, does this actually make sense to anyone? Вlaz zeee   ♦  16:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone will object if this is deleted; I just saw there already is a Cobra Clutch section! -- Вlaz zeee   ♦  21:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Airplane spin
Numerous articles link to this one for the hold "Airplane spin." However, that hold is not present on this page. Is it even a hold? Said move is not present on any of the pro wrestling move pages. I've never seen it performed. Could someone who knows more about it add it to the appropriate page? Gavyn Sykes (talk) 18:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

It is an obsolete move, seldom seen in contemporary pro wrestling. A standing fireman's carry where the opponent is suspended on across the shoulders of the practitioner. The worker then "spins" in place. It's hey-day was in the 1950s when it was seen as a "flashy" maneuver for the TV fans. It is a move designed to disorientate rather than to submit. I also wonder if its absence has more to do with the fact that's it more of a "move" than a "hold." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.60.230 (talk) 19:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Missing hold
There's a missing hold that, as far as I know, is usually just called a "leg grapevine" or something similar. It starts with a spinning toe hold, like a figure four, but the attacking wrestler just drops down and does a lock on the one leg. Surely experienced fans know what I'm talking about. It should be added. Maxwell7985 (talk) 05:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It should only be added when there is a source that proves its existence and describes the move. Nikki  ♥  311  06:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

How about Kurt Angle adding grapevine while performing ankle lock. Isn't that a proof of it's existence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azihade (talk • contribs) 08:07, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Reverse figure four leglock??
from reading the descrition of the Reverse figure four leglock it's basically the same as the regular figure four, except "Spinning toehold" is replaced with "turning 90 degrees", which is technically what a spinning toe hold does. What's the difference here? I think the Reverse figure four leglock is not described right, I've read that the "Reverse Figure Four" is a term used for the Sharpshooter. MPJ-DK (talk) 12:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Indian Deathlock confused for Inverted Indian Deathlock
This is really bugging me as I can't find any proof that those observing this page will accept, but you have the move descriptions for the Indian Deathlock and the Inverted Indian Deathlock reversed!

Quoted from the Indian Deathlock article: "A standing version can also be applied which sees a standing wrestler place one of his legs between the legs of a face-down opponent and then bends one leg behind the leg of the wrestler, placing it on top of the knee pit of the opponents other leg. The wrestler then picks up the straight leg of the opponent, bends it backwards to lock the other leg in the knee pit and places the foot in front of the shin of the standing leg in the knee pit, thus locking the leg. Inverted Indian deathlock With the opponent on his back, the wrestler standing beside him, sits with his leg over and between the opponent's legs (often using a legdrop to the knee). Then places the opponents far leg in the knee-pit of the near leg, finishing the submission by putting the opponents ankle on top of his own ankle and rolling both onto their bellies and pushing back with the wrestlers ankle."

Definition of Inverted Indian Deathlock quoted from cow wrestling (http://www.cow-wrestling.com/cow-blog/data/0087.html): "Grab both feet of a facedown opponent, cross his left ankle into the crook of his right knee, and then bend the right leg at the knee to apply pressure (using either your hand or your right knee). "

Supporting definition from the Big Book of Wrestling Holds (http://deathvalleydriver.com/bbbowm/part2.htm): "The victim is face down on the mat, the attacker crosses of the victim's ankles into the crook of the victim's other knee. The attacker uses the back of their leg to apply pressure to the victim's leg that is up and puts their leg in between the victim's entangled legs. Then the attacker can stand and apply pressure, or may fall backwards applying pressure to the victim's legs."

Definition of Indian Deathlock from cow wrestling (http://www.cow-wrestling.com/cow-blog/data/0117.html): "Grab both feet of a fallen opponent, and cross them beneath each other (as if sitting "Indian style"). Place your shins on his knees, and lean forward to apply pressure. "

Supporting definition from the BBOWH: "The victim is on their back. The attacker has the victim's legs crossed as if the victim was sitting "indian style". The attacker places his knee on the shins of the victim's crossed legs and applies pressure to the victim's knees. "

Anywho: Indian Deathlock = British Figure Four and the opponent is face up. Inverted Indian Deathlock is when the opponent is face down. I'm editing the pro wrestling wikia (http://prowrestling.wikia.com/wiki/Wrestling_holds) and I suggest anyone to go there for a more complete move list.ChristianColde (talk) 01:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Anaconda Vice?
I think that the description of the Anaconda Vice could be done a bit better. Read the very first sentence. The Anaconda Vice is NOT a move from Judo or BJJ, only similar to an arm triangle. For some reason, the next sentence says that it in fact IS an arm triangle. What is the difference?

Well, the Anaconda vice wraps the opponents hand back towards the mat, and the hands grab their wrist, from the images I've seen of CM Punk. This is not a legit armlock, and it only is possible to cut off the blood from one side of the neck, while also leaving the windpipe open.

The BJJ version has their arm draped over their face, an arm threaded underneath the arm, behind the head, and grabbing the bicep, and then the other arm grabbing either their head or your own, for extra tightness. Completely different move. --Outi-Di (talk) 07:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The "beard grip" ?
The "beard grip" was shown for the first time at Sydney Stadium on September 11 [1933], when "Whiskers" Blake met Tom Lurich in a wrestling match. In this picture Lurich has a firm grip on his opponent's beard. The Courier-Mail, Saturday 16 September 1933. --Jaanusele (talk) 18:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Tilt-a-Whirl
Can we please stop whoever keeps trying to change 'Tilt-a-whirl' to 'Tilt-the-world'? The move has never been called a 'tilt-the-world', and the move is named after the 'Tilt-a-whirl' ride. 'Tilt-the-world' has no basis in it's name, and it's only one person who keeps changing it back. 96.225.104.235 (talk) 22:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have tried to contact the person on their talk page, but they so far have refused to reply. Nikki  ♥  311   02:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Seriously, can we do something about this? The same user seems to be intent on keeping it as the wrong term, with no sourcing, and refuses to give any real reason for his edits.  It's getting ridiculous and there seems to be no way to stop him from changing it back almost immediately to keep his errant term.  96.225.104.235 (talk) 17:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I put a level 3 warning on user's talk page regarding changing other people's talk comments. There's a WP:ANI administrator's notice board. There's also the WP:VAND with instuctions on how to place your own warnings. A user usually needs to go past a final warning (level 4) before being blocked. The most powerful one-time template is Template:Uw-vandalism4im but only use this for blatant vandalism. Stillwaterising (talk) 17:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Chris Benoit hold; what was it?
In the Chris Benoit - Sid Vicious match from WCW Souled Out 2000, there is a move which Benoit performs, described as follows: Sid is on his stomach. Benoit is standing, facing Sid's feet. Benoit crosses Sid's legs at the ankle, with Sid's right foot forward. Benoit places his right foot between where he has crossed Sid's feet, locking Sid's feet in place. Benoit then arches backward, with hands locked and reaches under Sid's jaw, and stretches forward, in a bow-and-arrow type hold. Was this a one-off hold on Benoit's part, or was this a regular move? And if it was a regular move, did it have a name??

If my description confuses you, I have the footage of the match in question, culled from the Chris Benoit "Hard Knocks" WWE DVD, which I can send to whoever for reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blozier2006 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

That move sounds familiar. IIRC, Triple H did almost exactly the same move to Benoit during one of their PPV matches(face-down, ankles crossed, rear-bridging chin-lock). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.9.252 (talk) 15:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, after reading through the description of the STF, it sounds almost exactly like an inverted STF(ie, the attacking wrestler is lying face-up rather than face-down on the opponent). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.9.252 (talk) 15:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Chicken wing
Did someone remove the "Chicken Wing" section? I could have sworn there was such a section(and looking at various wrestlers' pages suggests that there was in fact such a section at some time in the past). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.9.252 (talk) 15:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Front Chancery
"The wrestler faces the opponent while both are in same position (prone or standing). The wrestler then places his/her forearm under the opponent's chin and his/her armpit on top of the chin. The wrestler may also underhook the opponent's arm with his/her free arm."

Can this be changed, as it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.158.139.227 (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Cross armbar
Currently, the section describes a belly-down armbar where the other wrestler is lying "prone".--Razionale (talk) 12:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

"Cross armbar

The wrestler sits on either side of an opponent who is lying prone on the mat, with the wrestler's legs scissoring one of the opponent's arms. The wrestler then grabs hold of the wrist of that arm, pulling it upwards, causing hyper-extension of the shoulder and elbow."

But from the name "cross armbar", you'd think of something like this.--Razionale (talk) 14:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Lotus Lock
I've seen this move described as a Full Nelson applied with legs. Is there any way we can insert that into the description without it reading too clunky? See here: http://www.gifsoup.com/view6/2595743/lotus-lock-o.gif compared to http://members.fortunecity.com/furnacehot/holds/image7.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.18.235 (talk) 14:51, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The STFU listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The STFU. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. 70.51.203.69 (talk) 02:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Natalya picture description
Any way to add in that she's illegally using the ropes for leverage? 180.129.62.248 (talk) 05:48, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Nature of pro wrestling
Should it be explained that there is a popular perception that the whole of this "Manitoban Death Grip" business is a set of phony moves in a fake sport? 213.205.198.136 (talk) 14:03, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Well apart from all the legitimate submission holds described, its otherwise rather redundant as everyone already knows pro wrestling a work as noted by this very site. 86.6.128.205 (talk) 10:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Viewing on mobile
When viewing this page on mobile, some pictures with captions seem to be in the wrong place, for instance the picture of Mr Kennedy performing a fireman's carry appears in the electric chair section. This only seems to happen on mobile, since I looked at the article on my laptop and it looked fine. Is there any way to place the images that can prevent this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePurpleOne73 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

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