Talk:Project Azorian/Archive 1

Conspiracy Theory
The article currently says: "Sewell makes the case that the particular Soviet submarine was chosen . . . ."  I think "makes the case" is too strong here, because it implies that Sewell's claim is widely acknowledged and/or considered proven. I would suggest changing it to "Sewell argues . . . ." instead. Comments? Richwales 22:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The Conspiracy Theory section should be spun off to a new entry on the Red Star Rogue book, with only a link from this entry. This material is non-factual and does not belong in this entry.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.111.217 (talk • contribs) 09:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

RED STAR ROGUE
I am making a change to the lead-in paragraph that posits the Sewell theory as fact. I have been conversing with another contributor concerning the Golf II Soviet Submarine article trying to scrub off the Sewell theory as factual representations. Sewell's book is difficult because it cleaves into areas in which the general public is totally non-conversant, and areas where security operations are in existence to minimize the proliferation of factual data. Sewell jumps into this void and rampages through ignorance and bad information to claim discovery of a heretofore unsuspected event in our history. To Mr. Sewell: extraordinary hypotheses require extraordinary proof. Red Star Rogue is a terrible example of circular reasoning and bad logic -- at best. At worst it is merely fiction masquerading as fact.

Here is part of the discussion concerning Red Star Rogue which is taking place at the Golf II article:

Gwyncann 21:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The theory has additional problems. For example, United States intelligence knew China had not developed a missile for it's Golf class submarines in 1968. Furthermore, China did not have a thermonuclear weapon small enough to be launched from a submarine . --Work permit 06:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

U.S. Government Continuing Security
I think this section adds no value to the article. The section Public disclosure is more detailed and free from speculations on motive--Work permit 19:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the section--Work permit 18:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

AZORIAN
Finally, after 34 years, people are stepping forward and discussing the facts of this operation. Documents are surfacing and we are finally getting the real story. Go to to see what is currently being shown of the upcoming documentary. Gwyncann (talk) 19:43, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

No sources?
How is the reader supposed to know parts of this are not just made up? -FASXFA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.214.200 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Very pertinent question. And then there is the citing of "sources" that are themselves among those blind guys trying to describe an elephant. Take a look at THE PARKA I EXPERIMENT (Pacific Acoustic Research Kaneohe-Alaska + Experiment), a part of LRAPP, with "preparations for the implantation of SEA SPIDER for PARKA II" as part of a temporary RDT&E effort. See if the "American SOSUS (Sea Spider) hydrophone network" actually fits together with that. Some of these authors grab project and code names out of dark little bags, string them together, mix operational with experimental and weave a tale. Hey, it sometimes sells articles or books. Palmeira (talk) 05:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Technical Aspects
I would be interested in clarifications concerning the technical aspects: Why was it necessary to stabilize a platform above the site of the accident? Why wasn't the boat hauled to the surface with cables, instead of lifting it with a claw attached to pipes? Why weren't lifting bodies hooked to the wreck to float it to the surface? The solutions chosen seem more complex than necessary - clarifying why things had to be so complicated would be of interest.--93.220.104.55 (talk) 21:48, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Level of Success
As to the level of success, I think the following redacted statement can only be filled in something like this:
 * On 8 August 1974 [redacted] that submarine was brought to the surface in [redacted] a recovery system designed and developed specifically for that mission.
 * ''On 8 August 1974, a portion of that submarine was brought to the surface in the Lockheed Capture Vehicle, a recovery system designed and developed specifically for that mission.

The original Secret document likely contained a qualifier to state which portion of the submarine was recovered. All of this is just from reading the first page. I like to saw logs! (talk) 07:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Change title of article?
In light of the recently declassified CIA article on Operation AZORIAN http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb305/doc01.pdf, where it is stated "[t]his article describes how the Glomar project -- code-named AZORIAN, not "JENNIFER" as stated in the press -- came about, how it was managed and conducted, and to what extent it met its goal," should the title of this article be changed? WikiJohnS (talk) 20:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * A redirect from AZORIAN might be in order. For now, few people will know it by the "new" name? Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it will eventually be the other way around... Going forward, we will no doubt use the CIA's real name of AZORIAN, not the cover name. I would propose sometime in the next few months to make this change, but the article will need a fresh rewrite to discuss this. Note well that the words "Project AZORIAN" appear prominently in the CIA released document and this should be the title of our article. This is the MOST RELIABLE source we now have on the subject. I like to saw logs! (talk) 23:46, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed the title, added that the code name "Jennifer" assigned by the press was wrong (including a reference), and did a search-and-replace from Jennifer to Azorian in the article. I hope that's fine with everyone. --Enemenemu (talk) 00:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, that's faster and less encyclopedic than I would have done. :) There are sections which cover what the press did in the 70s... all of that should use the "Project Jennifer" name of contemporary reporting in the press. It needs to be explained, it needs to be discussed, and it needs to specify Project Jennifer a lot... for search engine friendliness and for the fact that 35 years of usage makes Jennifer more recognizable. The article title is one thing, but the body of the article should use familiar terms. AZORIAN hasn't appeared much until the last year or two publicly. Also, JENNIFER was a code name for a security system associated with AZORIAN, so its nature should be discussed at any rate! I like to saw logs! (talk) 06:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The confusion between the security compartment code name JENNIFER and the project name AZORIAN is now mentioned in section Burglary and press reports on Project Jennifer. Do you think that this is sufficient, or should one go into more details (like mention other examples - CORONA and KEYHOLE come to mind)? --Enemenemu (talk) 20:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Distance to Hawaii and the International Date Line story
The released document shows 1,560 miles from Hawaii. I just did a test from a beach on Oahu to 40N/180W and the distance I got was within 10 miles of that figure. I tried the coordinates of Waimea Bay, Hawaii which is near the NW side of Oahu, and got 1570 nautical miles. Note: statute miles may have been implied, but not stated, but nautical miles seems appropriate to me and fits the data I just tried. I like to saw logs! (talk) 13:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The document also states that the distance from Long Beach, CA to the recovery side is 3,008 nm (page 37, top, 1,888 nm covered, 1,120 nm to go on June 27). The intersection of the two circles should yield a pretty accurate position of the recovery site. For starters, I entered 3008nm@LAX, 1560nm@HNL on http://gc.kls2.com/ (Great Circle Mapper) --Enemenemu (talk) 01:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm impressed by your first estimate. Using the coordinates of Long Beach, CA, and Pearl Harbor, HI, the intersection of the two circles with radius 3,008nm and 1,560nm, respectively, is at 38°6'N and 178°58'E, i.e. just beyond the international date line. Of course we don't know if HGE sailed "straight" on a great circle from Long Beach to the location of K-129, hence the true location of the recovery site might be even somewhat closer to the international date line. --Enemenemu (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed it to nmi (and added a conversion to km). The document doesn't say what kind of miles but it's pretty clear (I think) that it's nautical miles, just based on the 40N/180W position. Rees11 (talk) 18:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) quotes the location as 40° 06’ N and 179° 57’ (W or E not indicated, though that close to the date line and at 40°N, this only corresponds to a positional uncertainty of +-4 km in E-W direction), and "1230 miles from Kamchatka". In principle, they should know, though they also quote the depth as 6000m, which seems to be beyond the depth reachable by HGE: http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/te_1242_prn.pdf (see Appendix I.3) --Enemenemu (talk) 21:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * By assuming that 1230 miles from Kamchatka refers to K-129's home port Petropavlovsk, the 1,560 nm distance NW of Pearl Harbor, HI, yields 38°4'N and 178°56'E for the accident (recovery) site. This is in good agreement with the value of 38°6'N and 178°58'E derived by computing the intersection of the two circles with radius 3,008nm and 1,560nm, centered on Long Beach, CA, and Pearl Harbor, HI, respectively. Computing the intersection of the circles for Petropavlovsk and Long Beach, CA, yields quite similar coordinates. This strongly supports Rees11's conclusion that all distances are in nautical miles. The coordinates of the recovery site are then 38°5'N and 178°57'E with an uncertainty of ±1' (±1.9 km in NW, ±1.4 km in EW direction) --Enemenemu (talk) 22:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Fictional Accounts
Recently I came into possession of a 1977 novel entitled Fireplay. The authors name is William Wingate. The novel is clearly based on the 1975 press reports and covers the successful attempt to raise a Soviet submarine from the ocean bottom by the Pacific Klondike (eg the Hughes Glomar Explorer). In Wingates' novel the entire submarine is raised using a barge mounted grab guided by men in a bathyscaphe. Once the submarine is bought to the surface it is found to be an empty shell, part of an elaborate scheme to discredit the CIA.

I've located another fictional reference this one from 1978. In the novel Ice by James Follett the Soviet Union dispatches a Delta II class submarine into the South Atlantic to search for a missing British submarine. The Delta II is destroyed when it collides with a submerged iceberg while transmitting a position report.

The Soviet Navy is then ordered to mobilize portions of the Black Sea fleet to sortie on a salvage mission designed to forestall any American attempt to recover the submarine. A footnote specifically refers to Project Jennifer (Azorian). It would seem that for a few years after the event it was believed that the US recovered the entire submarine.

I've posted a summary of these two novels to the appropriate section of the article, but it does raise the question. How many other fictional accounts are there between 1975 and 2006 and what changes in the view of just what was recovered do they reflect. Given what seems to be emerging, this may be a fruitful line of inquiry. Anyone willing to join me in finding out?Graham1973 (talk) 15:48, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You should read other published non-fiction accounts to understand how complicated this situation is. Given that everyone on the sub died, and that now many of the people in USSR who were involved are also dead, particularly those that planned the operation, and that it's still regarded as highly secret, the chances of you, yourself, being able to run down anything new are remote to nil.:Something that's not commonly, fully appreciated by readers is that a novelist's primary job is to be entertaining. Readers assume sci-fi novelists are experts working from esoteric knowledge. In my experience from the expert and the writer side, barring very few people such as Tom Clancy (who has a huge writing staff), writers gather a basic knowledge, then make up anything that doesn't fit in the story line. 98.210.208.107 (talk) 07:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That has been appreciated. I just think that the media interaction in this case (including novels) to be particularly interesting. Fireplay is a case in point, the author has the CV towed to the salvage site inside a barge and then lowered from the barge to the target. Obviously this is a reaction to media reports about the Lockheed barge.Graham1973 (talk) 22:54, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Use of air?
Look, this is probably not the right place to ask this question, but lacking any other, here goes anyway. After watching a doco on the project, a question that comes to mind is, why was the project designed from the beginning as simply a dead-weight lift? Why not use air - in some kind of air bags, or rigid or semi-rigid containers - to take some of the weight off that oh-so fragile 5 km long pipe string? 121.218.80.176 (talk) 11:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The lifting pipe used was made to look like normal drill pipe but was specially made out of extremely strong steel by the Hughes Tool Company. Source Empire: The Life, Legend, and Madness of Howard Hughes by Donald Bartlett and James Steel. As to what page id have to go back and look but the Hughes company was contracted for the special pipe. Also i think using lift bags would be an enormous undertaking since i have heard of them being used at depths of ~600ft in free diving competitions ( for the surface returns) but no more then a few hundred in actual work environments.(CaptianNemo (talk) 07:38, 9 November 2011 (UTC))

Project MATADOR
Anyone notice that there is a Project MATADOR mentioned on the CIA document? Since the only time I see it mentioned it is slashed with AZORIAN, I would assume it was the phase which came after AZORIAN, so Operation Matador might have been the actual recovery of intelligence information from the AZORIAN project. Obviously, the raised part of the ship went somewhere for extracting that information and to decontaminate and analyze the hulk. I like to saw logs! (talk) 07:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Operation Matador (1975) suggests that this was a plan to return for a 2nd recovery attempt. -- Enemenemu (talk) 22:15, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Project Matador - several factors probably added up to it's being cancelled. Multiple (if inaccurate) press reports about Jennifer (aka Project Azorian), Russion diplomatic messages and statements about going public, unofficial statements from a Russian diplomat "if you go back to that site we go to war", memorandum to the president from Kissinger, the report about the Soviet tug MB-11 in the vicinity of where the K-129 sank in March 1975 -- all added up to its cancellation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Defridged02 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Project Matador started the day after Project Azorian ended. Matador was supposed to lift the remaining portion of the K-129, however, due to the veil of secrecy covering Azorian being lifted, Matador was ultimately scrapped.  There was a break-in in LA that resulted in documents linking the HGO to the CIA which blew the HGO's cover.  Coupled with the facts that the New York Times broke the story and that the Soviets were aware of the recovery, made any attempt of going back to the site impossible without being an open act of war.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.90.8 (talk) 08:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h6rGrzD2VY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.246.13.210 (talk) 17:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

A more recent and authoritative book (2012) : "The CIA's Greatest Covert Operation"
"Inside the Daring Mission to Recover a Nuclear-Armed Soviet Sub" by David H. Sharp (2012) “An inside account by a participating CIA engineer, who describes in great detail the marvels that were the ships recovery systems. The operation—one of the most ambitious intelligence projects ever attempted—is covered end to end in extraordinary detail.” Seapower Magazine. It has many new details, including corrections to some previous accounts. This book answers many (most?) of the questions posed by other commenters. Link to publisher site: //kansaspress.ku.edu/978-0-7006-1941-2.html There is also a PBS documentary DVD (2010) "Azorian: The Raising of the K-129". Excellent video segments both from the project and movie-maker synthesis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Driller43 (talk • contribs) 02:04, 7 April 2017 (UTC)