Talk:Prostitution/Archive 6

Removal of items about current cases of violence
The article is getting very messy with refrences to current examples of violence against sex workers. Why are these items there? very north americian centric. I think other than Jack the ripper all other references should be removed or moved to a seperate page as they add nothing to the article

discuss!

--Rbaal 07:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Question
If a prostitute is raped, is it rape or shoplifting? 64.178.175.154 (talk) 10:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if you were joking with this question or not, but rape is generally defined as sexual penetration without consent. If a sex worker does not consent to having sex and the man forces it on her, it's rape. Even if she's agreed to perform another sex act, like hand relief or oral sex, if the man has sex without her consent, it's still rape. A case of non-payment, on the other hand, could be tried as anything from rape, to theft, to a breach of contract. In a commercial context, it could probably be considered the same as refusing to pay your hairdresser after a haircut (breach of contract) or walking out of the store without paying for your groceries (theft). But sex workers, by definition, only consent to having sex in exchange for money. I would argue that refusal to pay negates the original consent - and sexual penetration without consent is rape. This subject could be good to add to the main page. The common belief that you 'can't rape a whore' is a major contributing factor to the high levels of violence and sexual assault experienced by sex workers the world over. Ashkara sands (talk) 14:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Legality of Ads
Advertizing is not illegal heer in Germany, you have it in every newspaper. --89.196.65.202 (talk) 01:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

lack of info on male prostitutes that offer their services to women
why is this article lacking this info... please. --Gothgirlangel1981 (talk) 14:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Gothgirl, see Gigolo: word was misspelt in original article (I will correct the next). Cheers. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 14:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Archiving
This talk page is 89 KB (14318 words) long. Because of possible technical problems, this page should be WP:ARCHIVE. I'd use the cut-and-paste subpage method, leaving the most recent (and therefore possibly active) discussions here. Any objections? Puchiko (Talk-email) 14:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Non-sexual prostitution
Although it is appropriate that this article should focus on the sex trade, because the most common usage of the term prostitution is sex for hire, it should be pointed out somewhere within the article that prostitution is not primarily about sex but about selling out. And that the word prostitute applies to anyone who willingly engages in an unworthy or debased enterprise. The term has gained sexual moral condemnation while it has lost the sense of betraying an obligation associated with sacred gifts in all walks of life, in the same culture where selling out in general has come to be considered to be doing the work of the unseen hand of providence. The result is a sense of "greed is good" in general, and that opposition to sex for hire is based mainly on disdain for sex. It would be debatable wether a person who views sex work as their life's work would properly be called a prostitute, or that a person who is forced into sex slavery should be called a prostitute. Neither one willingly engages in an enterprise that compromises their morals. - Michael J Swassing (talk) 15:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This is one of the primary reasons why people who work in the sex industry prefer the term 'sex worker' to 'prostitute'. The intimation that a person is 'selling out' or 'debasing' him/herself by choosing to sell sex services is what makes the word prostitute so demeaning and offensive to sex workers. Ashkara sands (talk) 13:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the article as a whole could be improved by noting that people forced into sex work as a form of slavery do not fit the definition of prostitute. Slaves, both male and female, young and old, have probably always been sexually exploited, if human nature is to be relied on. And vilified by their exploiters. Also, in the U.S. culture, the focus is on the prudish disdain for sex and the the low social status of some sex workers.  Actually debasing oneself for money or political power is seen as a fundamental act of commerce, or politics.  The condemnation is not aimed at moral degradation.  That part is assumed. - Michael J Swassing (talk) 22:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, need to chime in here even if a bit late: "1530, "to offer to indiscriminate sexual intercourse (usually in exchange for money)," from L. prostituere "to expose to prostitution, expose publicly," from pro- "before" + statuere "cause to stand, establish" (see stature). The noun sense of "harlot" is from 1613, from L. prostituta "prostitute," fem. of prostitutus, pp. of prostituere. The notion of "sex for hire" is not inherent in the etymology, which rather suggests one "exposed to lust" or sex "indiscriminately offered." However, this is now almost the official European term for the institution, e.g. Ger. protstituierte, Rus. prostitutka, etc. Fig. sense (of abilities, etc.) is from 1593. The noun meaning "a woman who offers her body indiscriminately" (usually for money) is from 1613. Of men, in ref. to homosexual acts, recorded from 1886 (in form prostitution)." http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=prostitute If you have a desire to point out that "prostitution" is now derogatory in the US, and as such has experienced a semantic shift into the range of non-sexual prostitution, then that's fine... however the original term, and the latent and persistent fundamental kernel of the meaning of the word is sexual in nature... the semantic shift is by extension of the idea of "selling one's body" to "selling one's soul/morals/aut alia" --Puellanivis (talk) 08:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Quibbles about wording of the Lead section
QUOTING FROM THE LEAD SECTION:

"The term is also used loosely by some to refer to sexual activities of which they disapprove,[1] such as sexual promiscuity or sex outside marriage."

"Male prostitutes that offer their services to females are known as escorts, or gigolos."


 * The reference [1] is in the middle of a sentence, but I can't find anything in that reference about the point of the sentence.


 * Are male prostitutes that offer their services to males NOT known as escorts?

I see above on this page the suggestion that the lead section is too short. That may well be, but the last paragraph of the current lead (which I'll paste in below) is specifically "not about prostitutes" and does not belong in the lead. (IMO)


 * Pasted in for ref: "Pornographic actors and actresses get paid for having sex, but are not generally referred to as prostitutes. If a woman has sexual intercourse with a man who supports her financially but doesn't live with her, then she is called a mistress, and is again not normally considered a prostitute."

Wanderer57 (talk) 00:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC) this stuff is cool —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.128.60.221 (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC) your moms a prostitute —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.128.60.196 (talk) 16:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Link POV

Why are there anti-prostitution writing links and not pro ones?

Lesbians and prostitution
Are there any lesbian prostitutes around? This article mentions female-male, male-male, male-female prostitution, and even child prostitution, but not female-female prostitution. It would be nice if some body with information about this topic could add more about it in this article. I know it is probably a not well studied area of prostitution, but there must surely be some lesbian prostitutes in the world considering the amount of lesbians that there are in the world. I think this is an overlooked are of the topic, and I mean this as a serious point. Franny-K (talk) 16:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a vert good question, doe anybody have any answers? the truth must be out there somewhere! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.55.109 (talk) 19:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are lesbian sex workers. Most lesbian sex workers service both men (because that's where the money is) and women. Straight girls also service women, just as some straight guys service men and some gay guys service women and couples. Sexual orientation means little in the sex industry. Like a straight male sports masseuse who gives massages to hairy footballers, or a straight female beautician who waxes bikini lines - in 'real life' they would never touch someone of their own gender in such an intimate way, but at work it's just part of the job. There is limited clientele for lesbian sex workers who only want to see women (straight male sex workers face the same problem). While the number of women paying for sex services is definitely increasing, men still make up 90-odd percent of clients. Ashkara sands (talk) 17:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

No reference.
However, in countries and areas where safer sex precautions are either unavailable or not practiced for cultural reasons, prostitution appears to be a very active disease vector for all STDs, including HIV/AIDS.

Removed due to lack of reference.

- "The number of American and European heterosexuals who have had sexual relations with a prostitute, who have no other admitted risk factors (such as drug abuse), and who have subsequently developed antibody to HIV can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Sex with a prostitute is not even listed as a risk category by the American CDC." (Rethinking AIDS, Root-Bernstein, 1993)

- "Non-drug abusing prostitutes have no higher risk of AIDS than other women." (AIDS: the second decade, report from the National Academy of Sciences USA, 1990)

The same is true for prostitutes in Germany, Zurich, Vienna, London, Paris, Pardenone (Italy), and Athens. (Klinische Wochenschrift 65: 287 (1987), Luthy et al.; Wiener Klinische Wochenschrift 98: 697 (1986), Kopp & Dangl-Erlach; Lancet ii: 1424 (1985), Brenky-Fandeux & Fribourg-Blanc; British Medical Journal 297: 1585 (1988), Day et al.; Scand J Infect Dis 21: 353 (1988), Hyams et al.)

AIDS CASES IN 2001

http://www.avert.org/eurosum.htm

France 1528

Holland (legal prostitution) 45

Sweden (legal prostitution/very sexually liberated) 42

Denmark (as above) 74

These current statistics hardly suggest a link between AIDS and sexual activity.

....so does that mean that people in France are less likely to use condoms than in Holland, Denmark and Sweden?

Actually the EXACT REVERSE IS TRUE.

Durex study: -

"The number 2 country in the Durex survey (amount of sexual activity) is the Netherlands, where people say they have sex 158 times a year, followed by Denmark at 152. The average among all the countries is 139, with the USA falling just short at 138.

While people are still underprotecting themselves from sexually transmitted infections (STIs) and unwanted pregnancies, according to the Durex Global Sex Survey, the French are the least likely to have had unprotected sex. Just 22 percent said they have not used protection, compared to 61 percent in Sweden who did not take precautions."

___

France had over 1528 AIDS cases in 2001 (http://www.avert.org/eurosum.htm) compared to 42 in Sweden BUT uses condoms almost 300% more than people in Sweden.

Confused? The lower the condom usage the lower the AIDS. Not exactly what you have been taught?

HERE ARE THE ORIGINAL FIGURES ADJUSTED FOR THE POPULATION'S OF THE RESPECTIVE COUNTRIES INVOLVED.

AIDS CASES (RATE PER THOUSAND POPULATION).

Sweden .047 Denmark .139 Holland .028 France .268

CONDOM USE (as percentage of population) FRANCE 78% DENMARK 39% (EXACTLY HALF OF FRANCE)

and yet the rate of French AIDS cases is 1.93 (nearly twice as high*) compared to Denmark. In other words half the condom use creates twice the AIDS (cases not death) rate.

_____

In Spain, of 519 non-intravenous drug-using (NIVDU) prostitutes tested between May 1989 and December 1990, only 12 (2.3 per cent) had positive WB. Some prostitutes had as many as 600 partners a month and the development of a positive WB was directly related to the practice of anal intercourse.

The authors also noted: "A more striking and disappointing finding was the low proportion of prostitutes who used condoms at all times, despite the several mass-media AIDS prevention campaigns that have been carried out in Spain." In 1990 and 1992, in two Scottish studies, not one NIVDU prostitute was found WB positive.

In the 1993 "European working group on HIV infection in female prostitutes study", only nine (1.2 per cent) of 756 NIVDU prostitutes were found WB positive. These nine included three with another risk factor (blood transfusions) but not withstanding, the prevalence of a positive WB among these prostitutes is the same as that for a population of 89,547 hospital patients at no known risk for AIDS or HIV infection studied at 26 hospitals in 1988-1989 in the United States (1.3 per cent). Closer to home, of 53,903 Filipino prostitutes tested between 1985 and 1992, 72 (0.13 per cent) were found positive. In September, 1985, we collected 56 samples of blood in the rue Saint-Denis, the most notorious street in Paris for prostitution. [...]

No prostitute was seropositive.

These women, aged 18-60 have sexual intercourse 15-25 times daily and do not routinely use protection. Altough contracting AIDS is greatly feared by these women, only 15 used condoms with all their customers.

[...] none of the Paris prostitute was a drug addict.

Brenky-Faudeux D, Fribourg-Blanc A. HTLV-III antibody in prostitutes. Lancet. 1985;2:1424.

The same results were reported from Amsterdam, one of the world's centers of legalized prostitution. When several hundred non-drug using prostitutes were studied, investigators found no HIV-positive women even though they averaged more than 200 clients per year

Coutinho RA, van der Helm TH. [No indications for LAV/HTLV-III in non-drug-using prostitutes in Amsterdam]. Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd, 1986;130(11):508. As reported by David W. Rasnick, Ph.D., in a letter published by the British Medical Journal Sex has nothing to do with AIDS. Aimulti (talk) 21:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Soi Cowboy caption
Soi Cowboy is a single short street NOT a 'red light district' unlike Pat Pong. It is off Sukhumwit Soi which boasts a number of the major hotels (Ambassador Hotel for example) and is a major tourist shopping area in Bangkok. Aimulti (talk) 04:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Whore redirects here
Whore is a derogetory term. Why does it redirect to a job? Cunt is also a derogetory term. It doesn't redirect to tax collecter, even though they're often refered to it. I say we change the redirect, what do you think? Matt (talk) 10:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless you want to make a seprate page for the word "whore," I think not.

Allowance?
Girls have asked me from time to time for an "allowance" of $x/month, and I will get sex 2 times a week. It's never worded as an exchange, just that money will pass hands and I will get laid. It confused me at first, before I realized I was being propositioned by a hooker. Has anyone heard of this before? It seems strange, like indirection... trying to not call it prostitution or a business deal, when it is. --199.173.224.31 (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You're being asked to be a 'sugar daddy', and yes, it's a nice way of saying 'pay me for sex'. Lovingboth (talk) 18:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As long as the exchange of money and the sex are bound together, it's prostitution. Namely, if you don't give money, does the sex stop?  And if the sex stops, does the money stop?  As long as the two answers are "yes", then it's prostitution. --Puellanivis (talk) 23:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)