Talk:Prostitution in Spain

Migrant worker and Chinese women
Dear JohnB123

There are numerous source on Chinese women and human trafficking.

(1) Trafficking in Persons Report (2013) 'An estimated 90 percent of women in prostitution in Spain are under the control of organized crime networks. Chinese, Nigerian, and Albanian trafficking networks operate out of major cities in Spain.'

https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2013/215619.htm

(2)European Commission (2016) 'Spain is for the most part a destination for victims, mainly from Eastern Europe (mainly Romania), Africa (mainly Nigeria), Asia (mainly China) and South America (mainly Paraguay), as well as for transit to other destinations, chiefly European countries such as France and the United Kingdom.' https://ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficking/member-states/spain_en

(3) The Washington Post. 1 February (2016). https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-government-turns-a-blind-eye-to-policies-that-fuel-sex-trafficking/2016/02/01/959352e2-c6c6-11e5-a4aa-f25866ba0dc6_story.html

(4) NY times (2012) https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/07/world/europe/young-men-flock-to-spain-for-sex-with-trafficked-prostitutes.html

(5) The Guardian (2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/may/11/prostitution-tackling-spain-sex-traffickers

(6) Global Times (2013)

从西班牙警方的这份排名来看，中国人的名次在两项指标中，都位列前茅：一个第二，一个第三. 根据估计，西班牙全国卖淫女的人数目前不下40万，并且绝大部分都是外国人. 在过去，这些卖淫女以拉美、东欧人居多，同时也有非洲人和华人. 不过，华人卖淫女只是极少数. 可在短短几年中，华人的人数就产生了巨大的“飞跃”，这也说明了旅西华人中的地下卖淫业在现今是何等的“繁荣娼盛”. 这种状况引起了西班牙警方的高度重视. 在相关通报会上，西警方负责人也特别指出，除了传统的罗马尼亚和拉美卖淫团伙以外，中国人正异常迅速地 “后来居上”. 据西班牙警方介绍，从2012年年初，到今年上半年的这一年半的时间中，西班牙警方一共登记和解救了接近七百名华人卖淫女，这些卖淫女大部分分布在马德里、巴塞罗那，以及南部地中海沿岸的瓦伦西亚和大加纳利海岛等旅游区. 此外，在西班牙北部的一些地区如塞巴斯蒂安等也有被查获的华人地下卖淫场所.

http://hainan.sina.com.cn/news/s/2013-09-22/103825994.html

(7) El País (2017)

'In 2015, other forms of trafficking began to be investigated by the Crime Commission. Smaller in scale, they are even more difficult to define, and include enforced theft, enforced drug dealing, enforced begging, enforced marriage and enforced organ donation. Of those enslaved in the sex trade, 96% are women. Most of them come from Romania, China and Nigeria after being duped by traffickers.'

From 2012 to September 2013, 544 prostitutes were identified in 138 inspections in brothels of Asian prostitutes in Barcelona -  This sentence also came from this news company.

https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/04/21/inenglish/1492756977_271906.html

It's all very reliable sources that Wikipedia prefers.

It's all Official sources.

It's all sources from the 2010s.

Conclusion

200,000-400,000 prostitute in Spain.

Most of the prostitutes are foreign women who are trafficked.

Chinese, Nigerian women are a major member of Spanish prostitution.

In particular, Global Times refers directly to that part.Bablos939 (talk) 11:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Also If we have to delete this sentence(According to the Spanish Police, Romanian victims are the most common foreign prostitutes, followed by Chinese women),this sentence('The 2009 study found the migrant sex workers were 49% were from Latin America, 24% from Central Europe (mainly Bulgaria and Romania) and 18% from Africa.') also must be deleted. Spanish police more accurate.Bablos939 (talk) 11:31, 25 March 2020 (UTC)


 * We all know that, sadly, Chinese women are trafficked for prostitution and have been for at least 150 years. Whilst we shouldn't ignore this in this and other articles on prostitution, we need to keep it in proportion and give it due weight. Statistics on prostitution are notoriously difficult to obtain so we need to take a consensus of reliable sources in deciding the content of the article, we cannot simply cherry-pick sources to get our point across. For example, the annual US Trafficking in Persons reports. We cannot simply pick a year to quote and then ignore subsequent changes that are recorded in later reports.


 * - The 2013 "Romanian victims are the most common foreign prostitutes, followed by Chinese women" is based on 400 trafficked women, we cannot extrapolate this to possibly 400,000 prostitutes. Additionally, we cannot present it as if it is the current situation when later reports give Nigerian women as the most trafficked nationality. "The 2009 study found ..." is presented as historic data so its inclusion is valid. TAMPEP is a specialist organisation dealing with migrant sex workers and its findings are highly regarded.


 * Looking at your latest addition:
 * The range of estimates of sex worker size is brought out in the lead, no need to duplicate here.
 * Mostly foreign - Looked at in depth in the previous paragraph.
 * High percentage of trafficked women - looked at in more detail in the next paragraph and also in the sex trafficking
 * Romanian victims are the most common - as before this is a questionable statistic from 2013 but presented as the current situation.


 * I have previously explained the principle of WP:BRD to you. As your additions are rehashings of previous edits that have been reverted, I would ask you to comply with BRD in future. --John B123 (talk) 16:41, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The Spanish police and the Global Times are no less reliable than TAMPEP.

=> Chinese, Nigerian women are a major member of Spanish prostitution.
 * TAMPEP's source is also out of date and should be deleted.
 * TAMPEP also did not conduct a complete survey.
 * ''In 2015, other forms of trafficking began to be investigated by the Crime Commission. Smaller in scale, they are even more difficult to define, and include enforced theft, enforced drug dealing, enforced begging, enforced marriage and enforced organ donation.Of those enslaved in the sex trade, 96% are women. Most of them come from Romania, China and Nigeria after being duped by traffickers.'
 * Global Times connected 400,000 prostitutes with Chinese women.
 * I think it is necessary to mention that the Chinese women is a more important member of Spanish prostitution.Bablos939 (talk) 22:13, 25 March 2020 (UTC)


 * In the 1980's most of the prostitutes were Spanish. South American women then started to work in Spain. Following Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU a large number of East European prostitute came to Spain. The history of migrants is covered by TAMPEP up to this point. In the early 2010s there was an influx of Chinese. This is covered by "There was an influx of prostitutes from China in the early 2010s" referenced to the Global Times, and "From 2012 to September 2013, 544 prostitutes were identified in 138 inspections in brothels of Asian prostitutes in Barcelona" referenced to El País. History did not stop there, and in recent years large numbers of Nigerian women have come to the country and are now the largest group of prostitutes in Spain.


 * Chinese prostitutes are included in the section of the article in a proportionate way. To include every mention of Chinese prostitutes in the press would lead to the article being unbalanced. --John B123 (talk) 12:51, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You tend to choose only your favorite source.Spain police data is intentionally ignored and TAMPEP data is excessively reliable. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weightBablos939 (talk) 13:49, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Please do not make further changes to the article until this discussion has run its course. --John B123 (talk) 14:01, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Plz Don't get rid of the proper narrative.You have removed most of the source I presented above.Bablos939 (talk) 14:14, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * (1)-(7) All of these sources are reliable. You only put too much weight on TAMPEP.Bablos939 (talk) 14:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * All I'm trying to do is to give a balanced view of of the history and resist your attempts to turn prostitution articles into articles about Chinese prostitutes. Be warned, I will ask for sanctions against you if you continue to edit articles to reflect your own viewpoint where this has been challenged and no consensus obtained. --John B123 (talk) 14:44, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll apologize if there's anything wrong with me. but I will ask for sanctions against you if you continue to Intentionally remove other reliable source too.I only mentioned it as it was in the source.I have never erased your contribution and respect it. but You are at liberty to impose your standards on others in this article as well as in other article. You only put too much weight on TAMPEP. The source are prior to 2010. You believe in NGO statistics as a general idea, but you think of more famous source as trivial. This is not a neutral view.Bablos939 (talk) 10:44, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Feel free to involve an administrator, I am fed up of battling against your blatant POV pushing. --John B123 (talk) 10:50, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. I will also ask for an administrator on this talk page. Bablos939 (talk) 10:53, 2 April 2020 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prostitution_in_New_Zealand.
 * Reliable source scuh as Global Times connected 400,000 prostitutes with Chinese ,Romanian ,Nigerian women.Spanish police arrests are very neutral.But you are deliberately deleting the source.Bablos939 (talk) 10:57, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The Global Times source hasn't been deleted, it is cited to support "There was an influx of prostitutes from China in the early 2010s". What I did delete was your WP:SYNTHESIS of the source. The Global Times stated and  which you interpreted as "Most of approximately 400,000 prostitutes are foreign women. According to the Spanish Police, Romanian victims are the most common foreign prostitutes, followed by Chinese women." This is not what the source says. You cannot simply apply the demographics of only 0.1% of the total prostitute population to the whole population.--John B123 (talk) 11:57, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * 'his is not what the source says. You cannot simply apply the demographics of only 0.1% of the total prostitute population to the whole population.' You are confusing the sample with the whole number. but  ' 2009 study found the migrant sex workers were 49% were from Latin America, 24% from Central Europe (mainly Bulgaria and Romania) and 18% from Africa.' You have an inconsistent argument.!! NGO organizations(TAMPEP) cannot investigate all prostitutes.They are only speculating, too.Bablos939 (talk) 12:14, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, my comments are this. 'According to the Spanish Police, Romanian victims are the most common foreign prostitutes, followed by Chinese women' Chinese ,Romanian ,Nigerian women, They are all major victims in Spain.You're just erasing the actual description.Bablos939 (talk) 12:17, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * 'A total of 600 questionnaires were sent out to selected stakeholders/organisations.

Around 380 were returned, representing a response rate of approx. 64%. Some countries collected additional data using other methods, such as panel conversations at national platform meetings which strictly followed the structure of the questionnaire' You cannot simply apply the demographics of only 0.1% of the total prostitute population to the whole population too. https://web.archive.org/web/20150714160224/http://tampep.eu/documents/TAMPEP%202009%20European%20Mapping%20Report.pdf  There are far fewer samples of NGOs.!!! Bablos939 (talk) 12:26, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The difference is that I am adding what the source says, you are taking what the source says and adding your own interpretation to it. --John B123 (talk) 13:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you're talking about. Global Times is clearly referring to the statistics of the Spanish police. Don't make your own standards at your disposal.Bablos939 (talk) 13:35, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * What I'm talking about is the Global Times say "out of 400 prostitutes, Romanian women took the first place, followed by Chinese" and you adding that out of 400,000 prostitutes Romanian women took the first place, followed by Chinese" to the article.--John B123 (talk) 13:42, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Global Time clearly points out 400,000 prostitutes. They mean that Chinese women are the majority of them. But I want to avoid a dispute. 'According to the Spanish Police, Romanian victims are the most common foreign prostitutes, followed by Chinese women' I suggest you insert this phrase only.Bablos939 (talk) 10:02, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The source doesn't say that. If it doesn't say it then we can't make assumptions about what they meant.
 * I have better things to do with my time than go around in circles with you. I'm confident that the section of the article as it is at present presents a balanced overview of the history of migrant prostitution in Spain. Your attempts to give WP:UNDUE weight to Chinese prostitutes have been reverted by myself and other editors. Until you can gain a consensus here to make the changes you want, the section should remain as it is. --John B123 (talk) 10:30, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * You are denying the normal source again now. You are imposing your own standards on others. Your point of view is not absolute. You prove everything with objective source. You need obey EtiquetteBablos939 (talk) 10:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Numbers
In 43 años publicando rumores y bulos sobre prostitución, Josu Mezo tracks the origin of some repeated numbers about prostitution in Spain. He says that the "300,000 prostitutes" has no serious source and dates to 1978. The claim in the first paragraph is sourced with three references, but are they just repeating a baseless claim? --Error (talk) 22:52, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I added portal:Prostitution and portal:Sex work.
This article mentions about prostitution and sex work so I added these portals. Other countries regarding prostitution uses these portals also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.19.75.28 (talk) 03:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)