Talk:Prostitution in Sweden

Only criticism?
It seems like the article only criticizes their system on the matter. Does it have any defenders? If not why does it do this way?--T. Anthony (talk) 03:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the article is very one-sided. Also, other than the first three sentences, it is rather weak on citations. Moreover, if you actually read citation #4, it doesn't really support the text that it follows. 69.180.12.38 (talk) 21:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Every time I try to edit something I get into an edit war. Most of this article has no citations and if it does the citations do not mention Sweden, foe example the part where it mentions Germany is a top destination for human trafficking victims and it tries to say that because prostitution is legal in Germany, and prostitution is almost legal in Sweden, prostitution in Sweden has more crime and has been forced underground. Much of this article is mostly unsourced and has a lot of WP:SYNTHESIS You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 04:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The idea illustrated here is very simple: the opponents of the Swedish model have accused Sweden of driving prostitution underground with their system, in response the supporters of the abolitionist position have said that legalizing & regulating prostitution does not solve any problem, as Netherlands and Germany have done so and they continue to have problems-they are listed as top destinations for victims of human trafficking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123username (talk • contribs) 04:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Who are these opponents? They are not referenced. You can not say that problems in one country may happen in another country because they have similar legal systems. WP:SYNTHESIS This looks a lot like original research or biased opinion. You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 15:18, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

If you do not care to follow the link to WP:SYNTHESIS here is the basis of the position, Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. Sweden is not mentioned in any of the sources you are referencing, so all of this paragraph clearly falls under WP:SYNTHESIS. Please do not put the paragraph back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GiselleRI (talk • contribs) 15:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

You can not modify or tag what somebody else writes on a TALK PAGE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123username (talk • contribs) 15:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and is not used to illustrate ideas, especially when they are not sourced.18:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by GiselleRI (talk • contribs)


 * After looking through the sources I would urge 123username to search for more reliable/relevant sources if you wish this infomation to be kept in, the ones you are using are not up to scratch in my opinion, but tbh I the article looks quite balanced at the moment, good and bad things already said about the law. Bacchus87 (talk) 18:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Can Swedes buy sex abroad?
In Norway one is also planning to criminalize the buying of sex. There has even been some quite extreme proposals to punish Norwegians that buy sex abroad, thus interfering in other countries jurisdiction. I wonder, has Sweden introduced such laws? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.177.43.27 (talk) 19:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It was in the media that the Sweidsh government wanted to do this, I do not know if it did. Lord Metroid (talk) 12:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a good question, and I believe some additional legislation to that effect has been introduced, though I don't know whether its been passed into law. In any event, Swedish sex tourism in the Baltic States is widespread, as much for economic reasons as for the difference in legal situations between the countries. This has been the subject of at least one Swedish documentary, BTW. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 23:56, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you live in Malmo you just go over the bridge to Denmark, further north you take a short ferry ride Mgoodyear (talk) 20:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Situation before 1999?
It should be mentioned in the article.--Section6 (talk) 10:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Style and Content
Frankly the whole article is dreadful and needs rewriting from scratch by someone who is familiar with Swedish and Swedish culture and politics. There is an extensive literature to draw on. This is potentially a high importance article because of its pivotal nature and recently reaching the 10th anniversary of the purchase law. I have written extensively on this subject. Mgoodyear (talk) 20:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, and think the article has been put together in a very piecemeal way, and contains some poor writing to boot. Attention from individuals who are able to read Swedish source material would be particularly desirable, because there was a whole party-politics dimension to the passing of this legislation that is almost totally unavailable outside of Swedish sources.


 * You're always welcome to start a better article from scratch, however, because you've published on this topic from a particular perspective, you'll need to be extra careful to balance it in such a way as to not be accused of bias or conflict of interest. (Not that I'm one to talk, considering my internet reputation proceeds me.) Iamcuriousblue (talk) 00:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Major fix performed. However given it's importance it is still dreadful in terms of explaining what is going on and why and addressing the historical, political and cultural context.Mgoodyear (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Lack of citations
"The debate on prostitution was heavily gendered. Men argued this was a social not criminal matter and that this intruded on self determination, while women argued that prostitution was incompatible with a social order embracing gender equity. All women saw prostitution as patriarchal oppression, and therefore not a free will choice, although there was less unanimity over what should be done." How can these three sentences possibly be allowed to remain without supporting citations? This is an encyclopeadia, not a personal blog. SelectSplat (talk) 10:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't assume everyone looks to see if you have commented on a daily basis. It is not a personal blog, it is based on years of studying official Swedish documents and interviewing Swedish sources, commentaries and articles. All sources are listed, you can't expect someone to put a citation on every line. If you read the sources you will find the disputed statement is correct. Mgoodyear (talk) 03:16, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "you can't expect someone to put a citation on every line." - WP:V yeah, you can. And once content has been challenged/removed WP:BURDEN says before it can be reinserted, it needs to be properly sourced. Active Banana   ( bananaphone  01:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Here we go again. I CHALLENGE THE SECTION I REMOVED (TWICE), WITH EDITORIAL SUPPORT, ON GROUNDS OF VERIFIABILITY AND ORIGINAL RESEARCH. CITE IT OR GET RID OF IT. And, I might add, your actions in simply replacing the original remarks are indefensible. SelectSplat (talk) 01:51, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * How can yopu say something is uncited when it is|? Do not delete authoritative sources because you disagree with them. If you have authorities that state a different opinion - please cite them. i will rephrase if that helps. --Michael Goodyear (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

POV
The person who just stated in their edit summary that this was extremely biased does not seem to have been reading the newspapers. I put in about every positive article I could find - unfortunately there weren't many, if they can find more - be my guest. Most people seem to think the evaluation was a farce - but no public opinion polls have appeared. Bindel did not write in Sweden. Mgoodyear (talk) 23:37, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Recent tags suggest there are major problems with this article. Lets put this in perspective - till recently this article was abysmal. It is now comprehensive and contains 175 refeences and multiple external links - that's hardly unsourced. Just because people have widely differing POV on this subject does not mean it is factually inaccurate. If people have other facts not included, it is up to them to add them, not just say it is inaccurate. Please see the person who tagged the article's own talk page for their history on Wikipedia which seems devoted to prostitution. Mgoodyear (talk) 19:08, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

=Lead= I see nothing wrong with the this intro:

The laws on prostitution in Sweden make it illegal to buy sexual servicies, but not to sell them. Pimping, procuring and operating a brothel are also illegal. The criminalisation of the purchase, but not selling, of sex was unique when first enacted, in 1999, but since then Norway and Iceland have adopted similar legislation, both in 2009.

Mgoodyear wants the lead to read:

Prostitution in Sweden is legal. However, although there is no prohibition on selling sexual services, it is illegal to purchase them. Third party activities such as pimping, procuring and operating a brothel are also illegal. The criminalisation of the purchase, but not the selling, of sex was unique when first enacted in 1999, but since then Norway and Iceland have adopted similar legislation, both in 2009.

To start this article with "Prostitution in Sweden is legal", is, in my view, unwarranted, lacks clarity and appears misleading. "Prostitution is legal" generally implies that prostitution can be legally practiced (ie that the transaction is legal), which is not the case in Sweden, because the exchange of sex for money is an illegal act, even if it is the customer and not the prostitute who is charged; a person cannot be legally paid for sex. Take the example of child prostitution, is it OK to say "Child prostitution is legal in most countries??" The situation of child prostitution in most countries is similar to that of adult prostitution in Sweden: it is legal for a child to sell sex but illegal for another person to buy sex from the child and for a third part (pimp) to be involved. Based on Mgoodyear's logic this means that "child prostitution is legal". Still the general way child prostitution is addressed both in colloquial speech and officially by organizations is "Child prostitution is illegal", people/organizations say "Child prostitution should be prohibited", though they do not imply that children should be punished, but that their customers and pimps should. In conclusion to start this article with "Prostitution in Sweden is legal" is unwarranted and can be misleading and unclear to many readers, and is no different than starting an article titled "Child prostitution in Denmark" with the phrase "Child prostitution in Denmark is legal". Mgoodyear wrote "to preserve Wikipedia style and consistency with the large numbers of articles on prostitution by country" though I fail to see this as a valid argument: not all articles on prostitution in a certain country start with a similar lead, neither do they have to start with a similar lead, in fact some articles don't even start with the legal status on prostitution in that country. And anyway this article does "preserve Wikipedia style" as it does contain the "prostitution in Sweden" in bold in accordance with the 'style' of other articles, if that was a concern. 123username (talk) 19:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I have already explained this above, the previous time I reverted, so please do not revert again without discussion. 123username (talk) 03:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Thar rather depends on your understanding of the word 'prostitution'. If you refer to the transaction, then logically criminalising purchase makes the transaction illegal. However that is not the nature of the term historically, which is that one prostitutes oneself to sell sex. The argument also applies to Child Prostitution since you have raised it. It is not the prostitution by children that is illegal - it is the use of children for this purpose - which happens to be illegal anyway if an adult is having sex with a child, whether or not money is involved.

You are correct about about bolding the page title in the text - but on the othe rhand you are supposed to lead in with the page title. True, not all articles on prostitution start that way - what I said was large numbers - and no I didn't count them. Michael Goodyear (talk) 23:18, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * No, starting the article with "prostitution in Sweden is legal" is highly confusing for anybody who reads it, and I believe that you realize this. You may be correct in what you're saying above, but, with the risk of repeating myself, have you ever read, in any public document "Child prostitution is legal"? Imagine if someone read an article on that topic and that was the first phrase they saw in front of their eyes?? For instance Wikipedia writes: - in child prostitution (in a subsection titled prohibition): 'While the legality of adult prostitution varies between different parts of the world, the prostitution of minors is illegal in most countries', the same in the age of consent article: Age_of_consent#Prostitution and so on.  Furthermore I don't understand why you insist so vehemently on such a lede, which is completely unnecessary. What is the exact reason for which you want this article to start with this phrase? The first phrase of any article is very important and it should be thought of very carefully, and it should summarize the article, which "prostitution in Sweden is legal" definitely doesn't. What is so unique about this legal system - the unilateral criminalization of buying sex - should appear to the reader from the start, and in a very clear form.  Anyway, what is wrong with the intro:  " The laws on prostitution in Sweden make it illegal to buy sexual services, but not to sell them. Pimping, procuring and operating a brothel are also illegal. The criminalization of the purchase, but not selling, of sex was unique when first enacted, in 1999, but since then Norway and Iceland have adopted similar legislation, both in 2009."     Why is it that you want to change it?   What don't you like about this phrase "The laws on prostitution in Sweden make it illegal to buy sexual servicies, but not to sell them"??


 * On another note, you're also incorrect in what you say above that "[the use of a child prostitute] -  happens to be illegal anyway if an adult is having sex with a child, whether or not money is involved "     because child prostitution is defined internationally as paid sex with a person under 18 in the Second Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child  which states that a 'child', for this purpose,  is anyone under 18, unless an earlier age of majority is recognized by a country's law (which is rarely the case), and most countries also define child prostition as prostitution of children under 18, despite the fact that the age of consent for noncommercial sex is often lower than 18. Countries, and especially Western countries, make a clear difference, both legally and ethically, between consensual noncommercial sex with a teenager and paid sex with such teenager (eg countries such as Denmark, France, Finland, UK, NZ,  etc all ban buying sex from minors under 18, but allow noncommercial sex with minors of younger ages, respectively, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16. The illegality of the act with such a teenager steams merely from the fact that the teen was paid.       Anyway, this isn't about this article.


 * I have reverted the intro. If you still want to revert I think you should ask for a third opinion through through RfC.
 * 123username (talk) 04:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the way it reads now is pretty straight forward, but Michael Goodyear is correct in say that the former lead "prostitution in Sweden is legal" was extremely misleading. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 09:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, the way it reads now is OK. And it was not Mgoodyear who was saying that "prostitution in Sweden is legal" is extremely misleading, I was the one saying that and I was the one trying to make him see this, Mgoodyear has written the phrase "prostitution in Sweden is legal" himself and he was insisting on keeping it, against my objections.123username (talk)

Recent Deletions
There have been some widespread deletions from this article. This is a fairly long and carefully researched article - if you find errors of fact, say so. You can't go around deleting text without discussing it here. I am reverting the multiple changes by several people - notably 207.250.63.33. Please discuss changes here. --Michael Goodyear (talk) 18:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Other deletions were marked "uncited" - they weren't - it is just that not every sentence had a ref tag which starts to get very ungainly. The debates around the Kvinnofrid law have been extensivley documented, especially by Yvonne Svanstrom, a Swedish history professor. Please check sources before deleting materials, or discuss here. The suggestion that saying it is Taboo is contradicted by citing criticism is an interesting one which I have qualified - it is taboo, and you need a lot of courage to oppose it in public or within your political party. Those voices raised, though vocal remain a small minority and attract much hostility. Just read the debates in swedish media.  --Michael Goodyear (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Mothballing deleted section
Prostitution in Swedish  Prostitution is also called "prostitution" in Swedish, however sex work is called sexarbete, and a sex worker is sexarbetare. Sexual services are sexuella tjänster, purchasing sex is sexköp, and the law banning the purchase of sex is referred to as Sexköpslagen.

Amongst third party activities, pandering or procuring is koppleri. A pimp is a hallick or sutenör, although pimp is now used in Swedish slang. A brothel is a bordell, and a madam is bordellmamma.
 * This was deleted recently - As I have explained elsewhere - many of the source documents referred to are in the original language, and a lexicon is an important tool in searching the literature for non native speakers. I have yet to see a rational explanation for removal, other than sourcing.--Michael Goodyear (talk) 16:59, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

"The Nordic Model"
I keep on reading about "the nordic model" of prostitution, which is apparently what Sweden is, or is defined by Sweden, or something like that. I think it means "Illegal to Buy Services". But the article Nordic_model is completely unrelated. Somebody needs to make an article by that name to explain the concept. OsamaBinLogin (talk) 05:37, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified
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I have just modified 5 external links on Prostitution in Sweden. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100826194501/http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665891.pdf to http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665891.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110727140435/http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/Lists/Artikelkatalog/Attachments/10488/2004-131-28_200413128.pdf to http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/Lists/Artikelkatalog/Attachments/10488/2004-131-28_200413128.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110727140435/http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/Lists/Artikelkatalog/Attachments/10488/2004-131-28_200413128.pdf to http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/Lists/Artikelkatalog/Attachments/10488/2004-131-28_200413128.pdf
 * Added tag to http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/Documents/Sweden/prostitution_fact_sheet_sweden_2004.pdf
 * Added tag to http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/Documents/CSWRP/CSWRPEUR/Ar%20sex%20arbete%20Dodillet%20PhD%20thesis%20Gothenberg%202009.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110815023237/http://nppr.se/2009/03/04/susanne-dodillets-ar-sex-arbete-is-sex-work/ to http://nppr.se/2009/03/04/susanne-dodillets-ar-sex-arbete-is-sex-work/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks%2CRights%26Health-EN.pdf

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We should mention that the Swedish Model makes the lives of prostitutes more dangerous and that the real reform is decriminalization.
On this The International Day To End Violence Against Sex Workers, we should point out that the Swedish moderl gives police leverage to rape and rob Prostitutes:

Poile: "Nice clients you have here. It would be a shame if some cop would arrest them all."

Prostitute: "I shall give you daily freebies and an 100 Euros."

The real way to help prostitutes is decriminalization like in New Zealand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:C000:1E2A:CDD8:CAD:2B82:57AE (talk) 11:33, 17 December 2018 (UTC)