Talk:Prostitution of males/Archive 1

Sexual orientation of male clients
I removed the addition "even though they like gay sex" - I don't see why the receiver of oral sex from a male prostitute (especially if the hustler is a crossdresser) should be treated as " liking gay sex" per se. --NYArtsnWords 03:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Um, because it's sex with someone of the same gender? Foolish Mortal 15:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe they just wanted a blow job and just consider it sex, instead of gay sex or straight sex JayKeaton 05:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So why didn't they want a blowjob from a girl? Like Hugh grant would ever have been arrested getting sucked off by a guy. horseboy 17:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

This has to be the most ridiculous and hilarious debate on wikipedia. Seriously?


 * Actually I've heard the same conversation many times! Sexual orientation is not automatic gay or even bisexual but simply may be "very open," I knew a strait male actor who had gay sex to research being a gay character in love scenes. He's still strait but tried it to be a better actor. I'm not suggestive a lot of the customers are researching but I am stating that it's incorrect to make definitive generalizations about why someone hires a prostitute and what they label themselves sexually. Benjiboi 06:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Lacking sources
This social disdain for age/status disparity is less pronounced in European, North African and Eastern cultures which have a long-standing tradition of non-aged-matched amorous relationships (although the American aged-matched couple is increasingly the rule in Europe).

Are there sources for this statement, if not I think it should be heavily re-worded or removed, seems very Ameri-centric wording. I don't recognise a tradition of accepting age disparity in Europe any more than elsewhere. --Brideshead 22:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "Most, but not all, male escorts in the U.S. do not have unprotected anal sex with clients. Those that do are particularly likely to be HIV positive."
 * Absent a source I'm taking this out of the article. Otto4711 19:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I should think that for he 3rd staement you could find any site with info on HIV and use that (as a source). Dappled Sage 02:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This page should be split
It seems to me that much of the information on this page relates to male prostitutes with male clients. It would be more helpful if the information relating to male prostitutes with female clients were separated (given that the issues are somewhat different). - Anonymous 20:21 1 May 2006 (AEST)


 * I don't see any need for a split. If there are some issues that are unique for male hustlers with female clients (and remember that some hustlers have both male and female clients) and that have not been sufficiently dealt with, then they might be included in a separate section. --NYArtsnWords 11:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Imho this article conveys the image that most of male-prostitution is male-on-male, and that male-on-female is very rare. I don't know if that is true, but it would help to get some WP:RS for that.....--  ExpImp talk con 18:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Name
Seeing how "prostitute" redirects to prostitution, perhaps a more ideal title would be Male prostitution. - GilliamJF 14:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Fireplace 17:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Gigolo is defined as a man that is supported by a woman to be her partner or lover. The term gigolo is specific to men servicing women. Male prostitute is more general, it could entail female or male client. The page should be split because this is factualy incorrect in reference to the defenition of the word gigolo.

Big revision
I've made major changes to the article, with more planned. I haven't significantly removed content, just added and reorganized it.


 * Restructured the article to be more in line with the article on prostitution. This has the advantages of consistency and of bringing better organization onto a previously messy article.
 * Removed claim that "rentboy" is a UK-specific word. It is common in the US too.
 * Added information throughout.
 * added external links to three of the most popular male escort sites: rentboy.com, men4rentnow.com, and male4maleescorts.com (the last being a review website). I have no affiliation with any of these sites, and include them only because they seem to be the most professional and frequently used sites in the US.
 * Removed LGBT-related films category. Male prostitution is not a film.
 * Removed rentboy under See Also. The rentboy article is very brief, adds little new information, and anyways is already referenced in this article.  In fact, shouldn't rentboy redirect here? Fireplace 17:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Areas for improvement

 * The article is still very gay-centric.
 * The article is still very U.S.-centric.
 * There needs to be a section on the legal issues of male prostitution. The main prostitution article has some good information, but there are some distinct issues for men that deserve mention here (e.g., the legal status of same-sex male prostitution is different in some countries, as are the relevenant age limits).  Also, this article should be generally self-contained.
 * I'm skeptical about the legitimacy of and need for the "People who have engaged in male prostitution" section. The section seems very gossipy, and is completely without citation.  I propose deleting it.
 * I think too much of the article is devoted to listing occurances of hustling in the arts/media. I suggest we separate out the lists into separate article(s) and instead have one shorter "Male prostitution in the arts and media" section that mentions the most well-known/influential ones (My Own Private Idaho, e.g.) and references the list article(s).  This would help refocus the article on the more substantive issues and shorten it's length. Fireplace 17:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that kind of disturbing section on "price"--198.82.92.132 04:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No one objected to the removal of the "People who have engaged in male prostitution" section on the above grounds, so I've removed it. I'm all for reinstating a similar section (or a sub-article) with reference citations. Fireplace 17:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what has happened here. There was - maybe there still is - a section on the range of people who turn up as rent boys. Personally, I dont just go looking for "crude sex" in the sex clubs of Amsterdam. I like to talk to the guys. Indeed, as I say in an entry in the talk page of the main Prostitution entry - I have a kind of an ambition to establish Geisha-guy palaces. So it has been very nice to meet lawyers, IT experts, experts in quality of environment ... So it was nice to see this variety acknowledged. Might also help people to feel comfortable in their quest. The info on range of prices was also interesting. One more comment: a colleague of mine did a survey of rent boys: why were they there? Yes. Money was important. But a very common reason was that they were looking for love. Now then, all this makes nonsense of the common image of prostitutes. So, if Fireplace has "summarised" or deleted all this stuff, I hope he (or she) will put it back. Quester67 11:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The section on the range of people involved in hustling and their reasons is still there. The price section was just removed (it can be seen in the Revision as of 17:54, 29 October 2006) on the grounds of WP:NOR.  I imagine parts of the section might be brought back, if backed up by citations (which, btw, the article could use throughout).  With more serious references, some historical scholarship and so forth, eventually this article can get even better (and less US-centric).--NYArtsnWords 00:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal.
Shouldn't the person who proposed the merge start the discussion? Anyway...
 * Agreed. - BalthCat 00:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Active / Passive vs. Insertive / Receptive
Active and passive are not accurate descriptions for sexual positions. They are not the distinctions used by social workers or health care workers who regularly treat clients for STDs where discussion of sexual history is integral. This distinction probably applies to all descriptions of sex acts, but in an article on male prostitution the possibility of an inactive insertive partner seems particularly key. (unsigned comment by User:Jb05 - PL July)

Active and passive are the terms everyone uses. I don't know anyone who says "I'm receptive" and means they are passive. If you go on gaydar, you won't find anyone going "I'm insertive". horseboy 17:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure that's true, but it's inappropriate for an encyclopedia article to adapt to the language used among a specific group on a specific dating site. Moreover, gaydar is a British site and, thus, represents the language used among British men identifying as gay. 'Top' and 'bottom' would be more representative of how men who identify as gay in America discuss their sexual preference, but an encyclopedia article should be accurate and not bias towards one particular group's language. As I explained before, you can have, for example, a receptive partner in anal intercourse who is both active and on top so niether of those distinctions are accurate or appropriate for an encyclopedia article. People like HIV counselors and health providers do use these terms in their professional interactions and they have considerable currency as their use is clear for those uninitiated into the lingo of various groups of gay males, unlike 'active' and 'passive'. User:Jb05 - PL

I have no experience of social workers/healthcare professionals using anything other than the terms active/passive. A clear distinction understood by everyone. --Brideshead 12:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Active and passive are more archaic and clinical terms. Top and bottom are industry standard. Benjiboi 08:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Minor problem...
The term for male prostitutes in German is der Callboy, and in the plural it's die Callboys. All German nouns are capitalized. Otherwise, I'd agree that callboys would be the preferable way of writing it here. --Dwspig2 21:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Callboy" could also be a term in English, coming from the term "callgirl" in which case the average English editor will remove the capitalisation, assuming it is a mistake. I am changing it to "die Callboys" in the hopes that will fix the confusion. - BalthCat 04:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Another minor problem
I deleted the Thai word "kathoey," for the simple reason that it does not refer to prostitutes. I live in Thailand, and speak Thai pretty well. "Kathoey" translates fairly well as "drag queen," although the term "lady-boy" is even more accurate. I have had these lady-boys in my university classes, just as I have had their opposites, the "Toms" -- girls who act like boys. If you tell someone that another person is a "kathoey," you are unmistakably saying that the other person is an effeminate, homosexual male. You are NOT saying that the other person is a prostitute. The fact that some kathoeys work as prostitutes does not make the term synonymous with "prostitute;" after all, a lot of young construction workers also work as prostitutes, which hardly makes "construction worker" a synonym for "prostitute." If you want a Thai term for "male prostitute," a much more exact term would be "dek khaay tua" == "boy who sells his body." Cf. the Damnern-Sathienpong Thai-English dictionary, third edition: "kathoey: hermaphrodite; transvestite; androgynous, transgender; gay, ladyboy."

Lack of Sourced Material
Admittedly, I don't know anything about Male prostitution. But this article is comprised mainly of speculation, i.e. Male prostitutes may do this and Male prostitutes may do that.

Without a source, they just as easily might not.Bantosh 18:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

A hustler may be homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual. This is a fantastic observation. Verdun1916 21:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the asexual ones don't make enough to live on and get forced out...

Lack of Mention of Heterosexual Male Prostitutes
This article has a distinct lack of mention of male prostitutes and acts with females. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.30.219.118 (talk • contribs)

Wrong Definition
Gigolo is defined as a man that is supported by a woman to be her partner or lover. The term gigolo is specific to men servicing women. Male prostitute is more general, it could entail female or male client. The page should be split because this is factualy incorrect in reference to the defenition of the word gigolo. riperrymanRiperryman 21:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like this distinction is already made in the article. Fireplace 21:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right it is. However when one types gigolo in the search engine "Male prostitute" is the only thing that appears. Gigolo should be a separate entry and not a footnote at the bottom of the "Male Prostitute" page. This can be easily overlooked it may confused people into thinking that the definitions are the same. Riperryman 23:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Gigolo should have it's own article and refer to Male Prostitution. Agree that gigolo is mostly are male/female construct although not exclusively. Benjiboi 08:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

benjiboi, what you just typed at the end of your sentence does not make any sense. The definition of gigolo is a man pay to escort or service a women. If it were male/male then he would no longer be defined as a gigolo. This is the point I was trying to make. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riperryman (talk • contribs) 21:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Motivations
In the overview section, there's some mention of motivation for men to become prostitutes. Several major motivations are not mentioned. One is the basic need for drug money. This is an important motivating factor for prostitutes of both sexes, particularly those who work the streets rather than advertising online or in print. It's also a major motivator in the gay-for-pay world. People will do pretty much anything to get their next crack or smack fix. And hard drugs provide considerable psychological lubrication for a heterosexual young man to have receptive anal sex with an unappealing stranger. I'll try to find some source material to cite on this subject.

Another motivating factor is the case of teenage runaways. In the US several decades ago, teens who came out or were outed to their parents frequently ran away from home or were turned out on the street. This was pretty much the gene pool for street hustlers in the 70s and 80s. Fortunately, gay teens are not quite as alienated as they once were here in the US, so it's probably not as important a factor as it once was. I'm interested to hear if countries which are a decade or two behind the US in dealing with gayness are now finding this to be a big issue.

I realize that both of these issues are aspects of economic factors, but I feel that they rate some kind of particular mention. Ninquerinquar 01:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

With respect, I don't see a 'Motivation' heading under any other occupation listed in Wikipedia. People work for only one reason - to earn income. What they choose to spend that money on is completely irrelevant. There are millions of lawyers, doctors, musicians, teachers, retailers, etc who use their wages to finance drug habits and yet we don't suggest that drugs were a primary motivation in them choosing those particular occupations. The primary motivation for choosing to engage in sex work is to earn money. Ashkara sands 06:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Also with respect, many sex workers, like "millions of lawyers, doctors, musicians, teachers, retailers, etc" enjoy their work but agree that it's often to make a living. However many do find that fulfilling a human need is valued and rewarding beyond the financial aspects. Benjiboi 08:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I wholeheartedly agree, Benjiboi! Unfortunately, portraying sex work as a valuable service to society - or even suggesting that many sex workers (like myself) report high levels of job satisfaction and find the job spiritually and emotionally rewarding - is considered to be 'glamourising prostitution' by many. Personally I think that if counselling and massage and other similar services can be called 'helping professions' and 'alternative therapies', I don't see why sex work can't as well. On the subject of 'Motivations' though, the primary motivation for entering sex work is almost always economic. Discovering you enjoy the job once you're in it, is just a bonus. :) Ashkara sands 07:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I can also see, for those forced into prostitution, that safety could be a motivation. Benjiboi 14:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

image
how bout a still of that movie Vago Fumador (Smokers Only) about male argentinian taxiboys or the cover?T ALK•Q R C2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 23:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know about an image, but I have added this title to the list on the arts subpage. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 16:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

stud ranch
someone should mention heidi fleiss' stud ranch a legal male prostitution brothel in the u.s. state of nevada.T ALK•Q R C2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 23:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. NYArtsnWords (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Fred Garvin?
I have no idea how discussions work on Wiki yet, so be patient with me.

Why no mention of Fred Garvin? I do believe Freddy was one of the first gigolos on TV. Well, to catch everyone's attention, anyway.

(Fred = fictional SNL character, played by Dan Aykroyd.) Would he be a serious insult to the male prostitution name or a worthy contribution to the media section?