Talk:Protagonist (Persona 3)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. The only editor who commented opposed the proposal, and after discussion the nominator also opposed their own nomination. I'm not sure whether that counts as "withdrawn" or "consensus not to move", but the effect is the same. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:58, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Makoto Yuki (Shin Megami Tensei: Persona) → Minato Arisato – The most common name - as well as the only one appearing in the series canon - for this character is "Minato Arisato", which he is referred to as in the manga adaption of Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 and in the video game Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth. Meanwhile, "Makoto Yuki" is only used in the anime adaption.

Possibly change to Protagonist (Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3), but I'd like some uniformity with the article for Persona 4's protagonist, Yu Narukami (whose article absolutely should not be moved, since he's called Narukami in Persona 4 Arena and its sequel, Persona 4: The Animation, and Persona Q). IDVtalk 06:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Strong Oppose: Comments below. —KirtZ Message 15:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Per KirtZJ's reasoning below.--IDVtalk 19:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * What is this "Uniformity" you speak of? If you had said to use the anime names for both articles, "Makoto Yuki and Yu Narukami" I could have accepted that as being uniform, the same for renaming both pages to "Protagonist (Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3)" and "Protagonist (Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4)". See where I'm going with this? It is certainly not uniform to call one "Protagonist" and one Yu Narukami and vice verca.
 * I already had this talk with an anon on my talk page some time ago and I'll basically repeat the same thing. The use of Minato Arisato in PQ was Atlus' attempt at fan servicing the Japanese audience of the P3 series since they had been unofficially referring to the Protagonist by that name since the game's 2006 release. (I unearthed this when I was writing Spring of Birth)
 * Now, Yu Narukami is not used across the board. He is called Sōji Seta in the P4 manga and by another name entirely in the P4 stage production. In addition, P3's Protagonist has two other names: the stage production's Sakuya Shiomi and Kotone Shiomi. With this in mind, even though you stated that we "shouldn't" move Yu Narukami your reasoning for Makoto Yuki still suggests that we should change Yu Narukami to "Protagonist" because he isnt called Yu other than in the anime and two video game spin-offs.
 * At any rate, Persona 3 The Movie was announced and released before PQ (which you are basing the move on) and this leaves "Makoto Yuki" with more reliable notability in terms of press and usage in Japan. I'm not sure how large the manga became but seems to combine its notability for Minato Arisato with fan sources—which is not reliable on Wikipedia. Further, the Manga was not released in the West as far as I know and reverse importation of the film will also result in "Makoto Yuki" acquiring more notability here as well. Lots of Western media sources have already started using Makoto even after the announcement of PQ. Finally, going back to the "uniformity", it should be one of the two choices I listed in my opening statement. However I'll waive this should you use a better word. —KirtZ Message 15:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * What you're saying makes a lot of sense, and I actually think I have changed my mind too now. When I said uniformity, I didn't mean Protagonist (P3) + Narukami, I meant [canon name for P3's protagonist (he apparently doesn't have one, so it doesn't matter anymore)] + [canon name for P4's (which would be Narukami)]. Sorry for wording it badly.--IDVtalk 19:04, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That's fine. It seems Makoto Yuki does win since Aniplex cant wait to cash in on the film and is doing the reverse imports of the blu-ray themselves. —KirtZ Mail 19:03, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reception
I'm worried that enough of the reception section seems to be about the mechanics of the game and not a reception for the character in general. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 17:45, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Me too. I'm struggling to see this character's independent notability when all of his information is aggregated from mentions within articles on pieces of media themselves. I spot checked the sources and I'm seeing no in-depth discussion of the character on his own terms. czar ♔   02:23, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Shorten to Makoto Yuki (Persona)
Should we perhaps shorten the title of this article, along with Aigis', to simply Makoto Yuki (Persona and Aigis (Persona) respectively? A lot of the recent Persona games and media have dropped the Shin Megami Tensei moniker entirely in the West (also taking into account Japan doesn't use it at all) and it's not like there's any other series called "Persona" featuring characters with those names. Wonchop (talk) 01:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This move only makes sense when the main pages Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 and Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 are moved to Persona 3 and Persona 4 respectively. But that doesnt seem likely to happen any time soon. —KirtZ Message 04:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * One thing to note, though, is that the overall character list is called List of Persona 3 characters as opposed to List of Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 characters, same with Persona 4. The games have their own issue concerning how they are individually published, but the characters themselves seem to represent Persona as opposed to Shin Megami Tensei: Persona. Wonchop (talk) 12:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, true, although character lists do tend to fly under the radar. I've been thinking, we dont even need the (SMT Persona) extra. Aigis' spelling is unique from Aegis and Makoto Yuki already has the disambiguation note. This should suffice. The titles are longer than they need to be, especially with P3 and P4. —KirtZ Message 22:44, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 15 February 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 00:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Protagonist (Persona 3) → Makoto Yuki (Persona) – He is no longer a nameless protagonist, and the article mentions he was given a "canon" name which is used in the article itself as well as the movie based on him. It would make sense to move to his "official" name. Additional reasoning is that he does not just appear in Persona 3, so this allows for the disambiguation to be simpler.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 20:32, 15 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I think I was the one who created this name as Makoto Yuki (Persona) when we had creation and critical response based on the movies. However, a user changed it due to other releases like Persona Q where he had no default. Are there more upcoming games also calling him Makoto Yuki? I think Yu Narukami became canon for him when both the tv series, arena and dancing game gave him that name.Tintor2 (talk) 20:57, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yu Narukami is the name of the protagonist of persona 4 if I'm not mistaken. I was always under the impression this character was named Minato in several sources.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:39, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * His name differs between different media. He is player-named in the games Persona 3 and Persona Q, named Makoto Yuki in the films, and Minato Arisato in the manga. The claim that it is "canon" comes from an IP editor and not from an RS, see edit history (I simply gave up on the "conflict" because I didn't have the energy to start a proper conversation about it). The IP editor's claim that he is named Makoto Yuki in the game Persona 3 Dancing is... unsure. He is listed as 主人公 ("protagonist") on that game's website and trailer (PV2 under the Movie tab, I believe), with 結城 理 ("Makoto Yuki") appearing in smaller text within parentheses. I am of the opinion that "Protagonist" is the best option due to how the character's name differs between the different media and is unnamed in the source material... even more so since the female protagonist, who as far as I know remains unnamed/player-named in all media, also falls under this article's scope (but isn't discussed much in the current revision for some reason?).--Alexandra IDVtalk 22:24, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "Makoto Yuki" is also a girl's name though - after all the current Makoto Yuki is a woman. So, it isn't like it's a male only name and can only be used for the male protagonist. I'd also argue that a movie AND the website saying that his name is Makoto Yuki is pretty authoritative even if the game allows for player naming. I mean, it's not like Terra from FF6 is listed as "Female protagonist" even though the player can rename her.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 23:01, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it can't be a girl's name. I'm saying that the female protagonist has not been named Makoto Yuki.--Alexandra IDVtalk 23:55, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * That point is moot regardless, as there is no indication the female protagonist is canon either. She is pretty much not acknowledged outside of the mode of the PSP game, a far cry from characters like Female Shepard from Mass Effect. Not being canon, the article is not really about "her", but about the canon character who serves as the protagonist.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 00:13, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think being "canon" is being argued though. The problem is that in the most prominent examples - Persona 3, Persona 3 FES, Persona 3 Portable, and Persona Q - he is unnamed. The anime/movies are minor supplemental stuff. It's not a "cannon" argument, but one more related to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Sergecross73   msg me  01:19, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Then how is "Protagonist" a common name if he is unnamed? Wouldn't people just call him the name they named him? In that case there is no argument that "Protagonist" is the common name and you might as well call him what makes the most sense, the name he was given by the creators of the franchise.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 01:51, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * True story - I have absolutely no idea what to do in this situation. It's very bizarre. That's why I haven't given an !vote. I just didn't really agree with your comments above. Sergecross73   msg me  02:40, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it would be a bit silly to change the article title to something that is never actually mentioned in the source material. We would need a reliable source, (Probably in this case, the studio itself) to announce the name before saying it is his cannon name. I don't think anyone would say that "Protagonist" is his cannon name, but it is descriptive of who he is as a character.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:24, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Would the common name of him still be Makoto Yuki, despite it not consistently being used throughout Persona media? I realize this is could be impossible to answer for sure, but the article should be moved in that case. Slightly off-topic, but I was thinking about moving the Persona 3 and 4 pages to simply that, omitting the Shin Megami Tensei title. Would anybody support an AfD nom for that? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 07:14, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you mean WP:RM nom? AFD doesn't seem like the right avenue for that... Sergecross73   msg me  13:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * True, forgot that was the ideal place for that (although AfD can discuss potential page moves too). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 04:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I mean, sometimes renaming can happen as a result of an AFD, but you really shouldn't ever go there specifically for renaming, especially if its something like Persona 3 or 4, where you have no intention of deleting/merging/redirecting the subject's article itself. (I don't think anyone asserts P3 should be deleted or merged back to the series article.) Anyways, venues aside, its up to you. I could see it going either way. It's a valid proposal, but I could see push-back too. Sergecross73   msg me  14:06, 19 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Maintain Protagonist. He doesn't have a canon name in the original game, and other media differs on what exactly his name is, and there's the female version in P3 Portable.  Redirects and alternate titles bolded in the lede should solve any recognizability problems.  (And a similar policy should be followed elsewhere - i.e. "List of Persona 5 characters" should use "Joker" everywhere, not the differing and inconsistent names, except when discussing media where a canon title was picked - e.g. the Arena fighting games).  SnowFire (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Seconded change to Makoto Yuki (Persona)
I also want to suggest if we can change the title to Makoto Yuki (Persona) as well. We all know that the protagonist of P3 is canonly male since the game's first release and due to the movie releases as well as Dancing Moon Night. Atlus has officially given the P3 Protagonist the name Makoto Yuki as a canon name in it's respective media. Atlus has not confirmed and continued it's manga name. So it makes sense to change the page's title to his actual name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirrorthesoul (talk • contribs) 05:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Canonicity is irrelevant to what we title articles. What matters here is ① the common name for the subject in English-language, reliable sources, and ② the scope of the article (the player character of Persona 3).
 * The answer to the first point is complicated - RSs refer to the character as the protagonist/hero/main character, Makoto Yuki, and Minato Arisato, depending on what piece of Persona 3 media they comment on, so it is hard to say that there is a single common name, unlike Yu Narukami who has consistently been named that in everything (except Persona Q) since the Persona 4 anime was released. The second point means that "Makoto Yuki" and "Minato Arisato" do not work as they exclude the female protagonist, who clearly fits in the intended article scope. Because of this, I can only see descriptive article titles such as "Protagonist" or "Main character" work for this article.--Alexandra IDVtalk 11:46, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Is it not possible to add a section in the page to discuss about the Female Progaonist? Mirrorthesoul (talk) 04:16, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Opposed: The female protagonist has no canon name (the musicals aren't canon, but they did give her one "officially" used name) and she has a personality that can be viewed as completely separate from the male protagonist. I just think for consistency's sake, it should be left as "Protagonist." lullabying (talk) 10:08, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Both he and the female MC do now, per Persona Q2. There is also no way "Protagonist" is the common name for this character, and WP:NATDIS would also support this move proposal. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: Wait, so how would be name? Does the female protagonist also have a name? Also, shouldn't thus this article have more coverage for the female character from the PSP port and the PQ2?Tintor2 (talk) 16:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Makoto Yuki should be this article's title, per my post. And the female MC is now officially canonized as Minako (as seen in Persona Q2 here) by Atlus, which was previously just a fan name sourced from 主人 公子 that means shujin kouko, or "main character girl". She should definitely at least have a section here. ~ Dissident93 (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 16:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I guess Commander Shepard would be a good example to follow then even though that article is not GA. However, this article would need further coverage in regards to Minako such as creation and reception to retain its current status.Tintor2 (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * But do you oppose the article's title moving to Makoto Yuki? That's my only issue right now. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 19:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm blocked to be honest. I haven't played Persona 3 Portable or Q2 (I only played Persona 3 Vanilla) so I don't understand well how Atlus is making a difference with the two characters. Maybe the title could be "Makoto Yuki and Minako" to avoid a redirect similar to Rose and Bernard Nadler who are two characters in one article with the infobox showing the two protagonists similar to the infobox from Joker? Maybe we'll need a another opinion.Tintor2 (talk) 20:24, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

comment - I thought Q2 you could name the female protagonist, same as in the vanilla game. I'm against moving the article to a non WP:COMMONNAME Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

The current title is fine. As discussed in the article itself and here on the talk page, the protagonist has had lots of names in different media, and the article's scope includes the female protagonist from P3 Portable. SnowFire (talk) 21:55, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The names Makoto Yuki and Kotone Shiomi are the default names used in the P3P 2023 release if that matters at all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJLyINn7-A https://exputer.com/news/games/persona-3-portables-switch-protagonist/  WidelyUnavailable (talk) 18:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The names Makoto Yuki and Kotone Shiomi are the default names used in the P3P 2023 release
In the multiplatform release, changing the language of the game will change the name in the save data to be "Makoto Yuki" for the male protagonist and "Kotone Shiomi" for the female protagonist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJLyINn7-A

This is in the game itself and not a spinoff or sequel game unlike the other times the name "Makoto Yuki" have been used. Kotone Shiomi was first used in the play but had had its use in official capacity in crossover events before this. I believe the page should be changed or moved to reflect the confirmation of names WidelyUnavailable (talk) 20:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

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