Talk:Protest Warrior/Archive 1

the point?
i'd like to reiterate what's been suggested here already a couple of times: this article should be canned entirely. all thats left is the charred carcas of a flame war. lets end it already.

somebody further down remarked that the unvandalized version reads like a book report. i don't think the person who responded got his point, but i did. i think what he meant to say was that it read like a three page book report by a twelve-year old writing about an action figure. of course its going to read like that because protest warrior is barely more than a message board with an e-store from which alan and kfir sell their same ten or twelve teeshirt designs, but somehow allng the way, friend and foe alike became convinced that it was an actual movement.

it really is all the more satisfying to see how disproportionate and hate-steeped the reaction from the social justice movement can be, but that's really all it is, folks: a message board.

Left wing descriptions
Listen anons, you cannot define "leftism" as "statism, theocracy, etc." You cannot delete whole paragraphs about Protest Warrior's activities crashing protests. You can't delete links to their critics. Reverted. Rhobite 03:19, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * They will always do abusing any public website for propaganda reasons. Thats what they always do. And defining "Nazism" as "leftism" in an encyclopedia is extremely ridiculous.


 * Nothing rediculous about the truth.

protected from editing
The current edit is sheer propaganda for the Protest Warrior group. Troll edits of the article by Protest Warrior members are abusing Wikipedia for extremist propaganda. Restore to neutral and lock the version or delete article.


 * I protected the page on whatever version it was currently in. You'll have to talk it out with the other person you were disagreeing with, and come to a neutral version (to start one, you can create subpages, like Talk:Protest Warrior/temp). Demands won't get you anywhere. Hope this helps, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 17:05, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Nazi references
If any of the anons wish to productively work towards a better version of this article, I'd like to propose this guideline. Could both sides please refrain from making Hitler/Nazi comparisons unless they have references? Particularly the "liberal" version in the revert war had a paragraph about PW's official connections with Stormfront, which I believe to be unsubstantiated and completely fabricated. My understanding is that many PW members have a pro-Israel stance, while Stormfront is an anti-semite group.

Similarly, the current list of acceptable users shouldn't contain the word Nazi. It's only used as an example, but it could be inflammatory. Rhobite 00:05, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * This whole edit war was actually started for this reason. First, let me take care of this issue: Protest Warrior is in no way associated with Nazis, Stormfront, The American Nazi Party, nor is it a white nationalist organization. The founders are two Jews. If you check the operation section, many operations are against pro-Palestinian groups. Now, Protest Warrior supports the War in Iraq. If you go to their main page, right there, you can see one of their sarcastic signs, that reads:


 * Except for ending slavery, fascism, Nazism & communism, war has never solved anything


 * So their position is pretty clear. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "both sides refrain", as only one user (or multiple users) is continuously defacing the page by reverting to an old version with added POV text. The edit battle is clearly between two sides: One side who is clearing unsubstantiated comments and adding good information to the body of the article about Protest Warrior. The other side is the people who are reverting the article to the old version with unsubstantiated text and trolling comments. That's pretty much it.


 * This POV text first appeared in the version marked (01:03, 3 Oct 2004), where the text was changed in a POV way, and there were links added to the American Nazi Party and Stormfront.


 * Another defacement occured on (10:41, 8 Oct 2004) when Bijoux added "The main target of the Protest Warriors is the entire Muslim world with which they seek to "nuke", to "flatten" and to turn "into a parking lot" for white Christians."


 * If you look through other edits, you can see more POV language peppered throughout, such as describing Protest Warrior as "...based on white power"


 * There have been lots of additions added to the article since the initial trolling, but the troll (or trolls) keeps reverting to an old version with the POV text. The troll writes deceptive edit summaries to make it look like he addded good information. This even tricked a few users, who instead of reverting the article, just removed the POV text. This just left behind the old article. I reverted back the longest version.


 * The IP of the latest defacer was reported, and he just reported the other IP of the editor back. I have a feeling that as soon as it gets unlocked, the edit war will just continue. Due to the nature of Protest Warrior (being a highly charged political organization), there are obviously hard feelings between supporters and people who don't like the group.


 * One of the defacers made a comment on Ahoerstemeier's talk page asking why that user reverted the page back to the good version:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ahoerstemeier#stormfront_on_protest_warrior_external_links


 * Making his position pretty clear that he believed that Protest Warrior was a Nazi group. So, I don't know what to do now. It doesn't seem like a compromise can be reached with trolls. Please read the comment in the above link that starts with "Stormfront is a neo-Nazi organization, while Protest Warrior is a pro-freedom and pro-individualism organization;"


 * That describes how Nazi groups and Protest Warrior are completely different, and also describes the content of the first paragraph.


 * --65.161.65.104 00:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comment. For the most part I agree with you entirely. However this article currently defines "leftism" as "statist collectivism," which is inaccurate, unnecessary, and POV. It then defines "statist collectivism" as "Communism, Nazism, theocracy." In effect, this paragraph gives the impression that Wikipedia equates liberalism with Nazism. I'm sure you can see how this is inaccurate and opinionated.


 * My other problems with the current version are listed below. Rhobite 01:31, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the article could say something like leftism and statist collectivis? From what I understand, the most popular sign on Protest Warrior and the one that headlines the main webpage takes a stand against many different ideologies. I don't know, maybe it should state all of those political systems seperately, and not try to define it under one word like leftism or statist collectivism? Maybe that would help?
 * --65.161.65.104 03:01, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Since when is marxist influenced leftism not collectivism and statist in practice? A rational analysis of ideologies in action is not opinion. - Megami


 * i really agree. i hope we aren't taking the "real communism has never been tried" schtick as the official wiki version of truth. state repression and "social justice" are certainly not the same thing, but one can't exist without the other.