Talk:Providence, Rhode Island/Archive 1

older entries
A state capitol photo is available for license; contact the photographer via email. 18.26.0.18 05:52, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I can and will be taking some pictures of Providence soon-ish (within the next month). I'll make them available free of charge once they're done. gomer43 - February 24, 2005

Should there be a section on the revitalization in recent years? The page could also use a list of movies shot or set in providence.

Peer review
It seems to me that an article on Providence that doesn't at least touch on its history with the Mob is woefully incomplete -- or is my perspective skewed from growing up in an Italian family? :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by SarekOfVulcan (talk • contribs)
 * In that case, could you be able to add it and note the source so that I could work with it further? Right now, it seems that no one else is working on the article except for me :-( Pentawing 06:07, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know if I have enough knowledge of the subject to do it. This looks like a decent article, though: http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/providence_mob/2.html--SarekOfVulcan 07:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Note: The website is at http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/providence_mob/1.html Pentawing 22:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I have written a History of Providence, and put it on the internet as two Adobe Acrobat documents. When I attempted to put links to it on the Wikipedia page, they were immediately deleted by your peer editor, citing rules and regulations. However, the full-length history which I have authored is objective, researched from primary sources, and relevant, and links to it do belong on this page. Because of its length, it is in two parts:

-- The city of Providence in colonial times, from the Kouroo Contexture: http://www.kouroo.info/RI/ColonialProvidence.pdf

-- The city of Providence, Rhode Island under the federal union, from the Kouroo Contexture: http://www.kouroo.info/RI/ProvidenceRI.pdf

Austin Meredith, "Stack of the Artist of Kouroo" Project


 * Articles that aren't peer-reviewed in general won't be linked to or cited because they constitute original research; however, since you have many sources in these, it would be very useful to write some of these things into the History of Providence page with proper primary citation.--Loodog 02:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hurricane barrier
My recollection is that Providence was subjected to several hurricane-induced floods before its hurricane barrier went up. I also seem to recall someting about the barrier being of engineering significane - first of its kind, or largest of its kind, or something, though I could be wrong on this. Adding something about the barrier might be worthwhile. Badger151 20:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I was told today by an engineer, in reference to a Pro Jo article about the vulnerability to hurricanes, that the system of levees or barriers here is exactly the same type used in New Orleans, and that the same thing would happen here. I tried to convince him that intelligent people like us can't be doomed to make the same mistakes, despite the seemingly daunting opposition and collusion of government and media, but I'm not really convinced myself. Even this article seems like it was taken off the copy for a tourist brochure.


 * The major difference between Providence and New Orleans is that Providence is above sea level. Even if the Hurricane Barrier failed, we couldn't be nearly as bad off.66.240.10.170 23:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)loodog
 * Ummm, how bad could it be? 12 feet of water in downtown PVD - Hurricane Carol and 13 feet of water in downtown PVD - New England Hurricane of 1938.  That is definitely nearly as bad.  The barriers have been up since the 1960s; at least, I remember them always being there, driving to Providence, having been born in 1962.  If they weren't there Providence would be flooded again.  The Narragansett Bay acts as a funnel for the storm bore.  --McTrixie/Mr Accountable 16:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Images
I would like to put up renderings of the what the completed construction in DownCity Providence will look like. What is the policy on which pictures I can use.
 * First, you must have a login account (from what I know, people contributing anonymously through an IP address are forbidden from uploading files). Second, the image you upload must be of your own creation (this places such images under GFDL, which is preferred). Otherwise, you must state that the image is indeed copyrighted and what its source is (images that are untagged and unsourced images are immediately marked for deletion). Hope this helps. PentawingTalk 20:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Would it matter if I got permission from the creator to use it? 66.240.10.170 00:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)loodog
 * Are there any rules prohibiting my using a screen shot from Family Guy featuring the Providence skyline in the "Culture" section? 66.240.10.170 23:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)loodog
 * I'll address the above two inquiries - refer to Image use policy and Image copyright tags. The information is all there. PentawingTalk 07:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Confusing racial makeup
"The racial makeup of the city was 54.53% Caucasian, 14.54% African American, 1.14% Native American, 6.01% Asian, 0.16% Pacific Islander, 17.55% from other races, and 6.08% from two or more races. 30.03% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race."

I don't know what to make of that last statistic.


 * Assumption 1: white, black, native american, asian, pacific islander, other races, and two or more races are mutually exclusive categories, since, if we made a person both black and white, (s)he'd be put into the "multiple races" category.


 * Assumption 2: hispanic/latino is a racial classification

Operating on these two assumptions, any person being hispanic/latino must come from "other races" or "two or more races", except this only allows 17.55 + 6.08 = 23.64% of the population to be hispanic/latino.

And we can't get the other 6% from the other categories, since that would put them in the "two or more races" group.

Whatever this statistic is supposed to mean, it needs to be reworded.Loodog 21:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The demographics information were placed there by a bot (automated script). Hence, this wording has appeared in every other U.S. municipality article. If you can find a better way of rewording it without completely destroying the section, go ahead. PentawingTalk 03:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The issue appears to be your second assumption. The United States Census Bureau does not consider Hispanic/Latino to be a race. See Race (United States Census). &mdash; 05:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

New images
I was in Providence and took a number of new pictures, a few appear on this page. Anyone not liking the layout feel free to play around with the format, as I am a terrible novice in "wikicode".Loodog 23:47, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we need another shot of downtown, but one that includes the textron building, that whole side should be shown.


 * Done, see economy section.--Loodog 03:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

We definitly need that shot of downtown with the textron side of the high rise buildings... I have some if someone will post them for me... let me know.. my username is BlueFitted.

Yeah, I just don't know how to contact users on this thing.Loodog 20:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Bank of America building
After adding the bit of trivia about the "Bank of America" building being known as the Superman building, I released there's a lot about this particular building that is largely superfluous information in an article about Providence. I'd like to split off the Bank of America building info into its own article. Does anyone have (or is aware of) an image we can use for this purpose?Loodog 20:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Look at the Wikimedia Commons (commons.wikimedia.org) under "Providence, Rhode Island". There are two pictures that are of use. PentawingTalk 23:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * DoneLoodog 03:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC).

Waterplace Park pictures
There are currently two different pictures of Waterplace Park in the article:



The first is in the "Geography and climate" section and the second is in that section's "Climate" subsection. Why two, and why in that section of the article? DMacks 17:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My problem with the first was that it was too small, you really can't see anything. I uploaded another pic, but couldn't really justify removing the first from the page.  As for the location in the article, damned if I know.  I believe they were both either originally in "Cityscape" or "Culture".Loodog 04:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

A rather bold edit to cityscape
I've made a large edit to the cityscape section, one that I think gives a better impression of the Providence cityscape. Discuss any objections here: --Loodog 17:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

history section too long
As much as I hate to concede it, the history section is obviously too long. How about taking current projects and splitting them off into a separate page?--Loodog 20:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The usual method is to move the current version into its own sub-article and leave a summarized version within the main city article. PentawingTalk 00:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

poverty-stricken Providence
Someone has changed this:

"The city is located in Providence County and is the second-largest city in New England. Providence is nicknamed the "Beehive of Industry" and, since the 1990s, "The Renaissance City," which is a dubious and sometimes tongue-in-cheek claim given that Providence has one of the highest percentages of people living in poverty of any city in the United States. In fact, Providence is one of the "10 poorest cities in the country" - sharing company with Brownsville and Laredo, TX, New Orleans, LA, AClarke, GA, Hartford, CT, Newark, NJ, Syracuse, NY, San Bernardino, CA and Miami, FL . Providence also has a very high crime rate and many run-down neighborhoods."

I've reverted much of it for the following reasons:


 * I looked at the other cities mentioned, only one has this piece of information (that it's one of ten poorest cities) in the introduction, and with the exception of Miami the others don't mention poverty at all except in the standard demographics section. However, I considered it fair game to leave in a quick note to contrast the word "Renaissance", since "Renaissance" is up front in the intro too.


 * Yes, I agree the contrast is important and it is an interesting factoid distinguishing Providence from other cities. User 71.235.84.59


 * Is the contrast necessary though? "Renaissance" doesn't necessarily mean "High Income" or "Wealthy". Compared to 20 or 30 years ago, isn't the "Renaissance" moniker appropriate? Shaft0rz 22:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Mentioning that it's poor and then spending an extra sentence to write that it is one of the ten poorest is redundant.


 * Offer me documentation saying that Providence has a high crime rate and I'll believe it. Single digit murders a year hardly qualifies.  Run-down neighborhoods would need citation to say, though even the article on Miami has no note of it.

--Loodog 18:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, user 71.235.84.59 was the one who put this piece of information in the Syracuse article anyway.--Loodog 18:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

GA hold
On hold for 7 days, please fix the following: wikilink only full dates, not partial, refs go after punctuation not before it, make refs consitent format pref using cite fmt, get rid of weasel words. Rlevse 19:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ref locations fixed. Not sure what the date issue is. I see some years linked...are they not supposed to be? All but one are in a listing of censuses, and it seems reasonable to me to link them there (cross-ref what else is happening then). All cites are now with templates, though some could use some additional data. DMacks 20:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Deweaseled.--Loodog 20:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Better, but: Fix the external jump at "Providence has 25 official neighborhoods. Profiles can be found at", make it a footnote. Need more refs. Example, the entire history section only has 2, I know there are more than that. Footnote format is not consistent (some have retieve dates/publishers, some don't). For dates, you link January 17 and January 17, 2007 but not 2007. You can also ISO format them like this (view in edit mode) 2007-01-17 and the user's view prefs will format them to the way they selected on their account prefs.Rlevse 19:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * External jump fixed, but I'm not sure what to do about history. Everything not footnoted is taken from http://www.providenceri.com/history/centuries1.html.  How do I cite that?--Loodog 23:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Make the web site a footnote. Repeat its use if you need to. Climate, weather, demographics, etc have no refs too. Need lots more refs. Rlevse 13:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Demographics are automatically filled in for all locations, it has a reference.  Is this not sufficient?  E.g. Cleveland has been a featured article with only GR2 as a reference for demographics; neither does it have references for most of its climate prose.  Boston, San Jose, San Francisco have also been featured articles and similarly lack references in climate and demographics.--Loodog 02:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * GR2 merely takes you to a wiki article, that is not a ref. San Francisco became a FA in 2006 had has LOTS of refs in climate and demographics, the others became FAs in 2005 and the standards for GA and FA are higher now. The 2005 FAs could even be delisted for not being kept up. Maybe I'll go do that. Your infrastructure section is devoid of refs too. A good rule of thumb is at least one ref per paragraph, especially if it is more than a couple of sentences.Rlevse 13:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Refs go AFTER punctuation. Do you know how to reuse a ref so it appears once in the footnotes? Refs 2-7 are exactly the same.Rlevse 13:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Merged. DMacks 19:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The "url" field of cite templates should just be the URL; the title goes in the "title" field. Leave it to the magic of the templates to handle the formatting...that's why we have them. DMacks 19:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm now going to pass this for GA. Suggestions for further improvement, esp if you want FA: more cites are needed-there are still strings of paragraphs without them; be consistent in format of refs-I fixed some for you, ex: web refs should have title, url, accessdate, and publisher at a minimum. I added publisher to ref 38 "Lifespan" as a sample for you. I think the prose of the article is fairly good. Rlevse 12:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Why "Providence" goes here and not to disambig
Providence used to go directly to the disambig page, but we changed it to go directly to this page. Reasons:


 * google search reveals majority of results to the city.


 * All other places have populations of less than 4400 and have only automated default pages, except for Providence County which one would never search for with just the word "Providence".


 * Most alternative articles linked to in the disambig page only contain the word "Providence" in their titles and are not identical. You would never look up Providence College with the word Providence any more than you would look for NYU by searching for New York.  Of those with names that actually match, we have 2 obscure movies, a defunct TV show, an unknown band, song, and the name of a fictitious place in comic books.

In the interests of saving the most people the most additional clicks, we agreed to send Providence here with a disambig at top rather than the opposite.--Loodog 06:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It is very common to refer to Divine Providence as simply Providence. I would venture to guess that Divine Providence is at least as likely to be the intended target as Providence, Rhode Island. In fact, that's why I attempted to redirect it to the disambig page—I was seeking the theological entry, not the geographical entry. Also, since there are so many other cities with the same name, it seems reasonable to go directly to the disambig page. Someone might be looking for Providence College but might not remember whether it is a college or a university and simply type providence hoping to get a disambig page from which to see all the options. (I frequently do this when I don't remember an exact name or title.) In addition to the reasons mentioned already, I would suggest that for consistency's sake we redirect to the typical Wikipedia-preferred location. Overall, it's significantly easier and less confusing to start from a disambig page and move to an article page than to go the other direction. --Emote 06:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Boston has twice as many things to redirect to, including Boston University, Boston College, and 13 other cities, yet "Boston" takes you straight to the city because it's the overwhelmingly what people are headed toward. A google search reveals that people seeking "Divine Providence" with "Providence" won't find it (not until looking through more than 10 pages of results).--Loodog 12:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Emote that Providence should go directly to a disambig page. Having it link with a small New England city suffers from a very American-centric worldview.  Few people outside of the US, I think, would be searching for the city when entering Providence in the English Wikipedia.  The word is incredibly common as a noun in its own right. Keen Machine 14:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * US centric? There are ten cities with this name, all of which are in the United States, only one of which has a population over 4400.  I will concede that the Divine Providence sense of the word would see more frequency than these small towns, but a google search reveals that the first page is about that small New England city.  In fact, you have to go to halfway down the second page to find an article on "Divine Providence".  search for Divine Providence, it returns it immediately.  You can call google US centered if you want but its results are based on relevance to the user, reinforced by information about its users actions.--Loodog 15:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Metro. Population
List of United States urban areas lists providence as the 34th biggest in America, with a population of 1,174,548. The Providence article lists itself as 35, with a population of 1,622,520. I'm sure they're statistics from different years, so it would be nice to know when at list one of them is from. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phantombantam (talk • contribs) 18:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
 * There is no contradiction. 34th is for urban area; 35th is for metro area.  Urban is more a measure of contiguous urbanization, metro extends distances to effective commuting distances.--Loodog 19:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

In economy
Added a table and a pie chart, play around with the format if you like.--Loodog 02:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Postsecondary
Postsecondary is hyphenated in the text, but not in the heading; which is it? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 15:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Loodog 00:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

"Downcity"
The official name of the neighborhood is downtown. The name 'downcity' has been promoted by City Hall but its hardly used outside City Hall press releases & Channel 12 news broadcasts. It shouldn't be included in this article except as a brief note at the beginning RIVA02906 14:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Unofficial Neighborhoods
In response to the criticism that the unofficial neighborhoods are like a "laundry list" and that they should be removed.

And what is the list of official neighborhoods above? Another laundry list? Most of those terms listed are in common use, some more common than the official neighborhood names. Do you think anybody in Providence says they live in 'South Elmwood' or that they are visiting 'Upper South Providence?'No. But they do say that of West Broadway and the Jewelry District.

Many of the official neighborhood names are undated and arbitrary. To remove all mention of places like the Jewelry District, the Armory District, and West Broadway is a disservice to wikipedia users. Its also extremely reactionary.

Oh btw:

http://www.wbna.org/ http://www.jewelrydistrict.org/

Oh, and another amusing anecdote: A google search of Providence "south elmwood" gets 15,600 responses. West Broadway gets 70,500.

RIVA02906 14:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)RIVA02906

In an effort to reach a compromise, I ahve removed 'West Side' and 'Armory District.' Both are recognizable in Providence as 'neighborhood names,' but they are used less frequently than the other unofficcal neighborhoods I listed. RIVA02906 17:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with including unofficial neighborhoods, but the statement "West Broadway is an officially recognized neighborhood..." is just wrong. It's actual not officially recognized. Why not start the sentence, "West Broadway is an unofficial, but well-recognized neighborhood..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elm6936 (talk • contribs) 18:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Providence meetup
There is now a planning page to arrange a meetup in Providence. Please sign up if you are interested. --mikeu (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There are now two dates scheduled for a Meetup in Providence. --mikeu talk 14:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Minority Population
The article says that Providence has a higher percentage of minorities than Boston and Hartford. Hartford's minority popualtion is almost 80% (38.5 black and 40% Hispanic).Could someone correct this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.184.15 (talk) 21:51, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The article does not say that. It says its minority population has a higher density.--Loodog (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Minority
Providence does have a higher minority percentage then Harftod conn and Boston. Half the school population in providence is Hispanic. Thats not including the African American community or the high Cambodian and Laos population.
 * See above.--Loodog (talk) 22:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Massage parlors
Contested passage:

''The city is also home to numerous massage parlors and strip clubs that also offer prostitution. Because prostitution is legal in Rhode Island "behind closed doors", many locations are known as full service, or "rub n tug" where only  handjobs are offered. The 2009 documentary Happy Endings? was filmed in Providence and follows women in Asian massage parlors in Providence and the debate to criminalize indoor prostitution.

In addition to the heterosexual prostitution, Providence is home to the largest gay bathhouse in New England. ''

Sources offered:

Next to statements about local speech, unique dining culture, ethnic neighborhoods, LGBT communities, the crowd-drawing Waterfire, local theatre, and the underground music scene, appears this paragraph implying that the existence of "full service" parlors is an integral part of local Providence culture.

Setting aside my personal feelings that this is a disproportionate representation of this industry's impact, no sources assert to the level of impact this has on Providence culture. The first says only that the Megaplex is the largest "MSM" sex club in New England, (not much of a superlative, keep in mind because it's legal in no other state in NE), while the second explores the history of the state laws. I would accept a source showing that prostitution, or at least debate about it, forms a significant part of Providence culture, particularly that of the city and not just the state.

Also, to respond to stated in an edit summary: comparisons to NV cities are not necessarily indicative of treatment here for two reasons (my takeaway of WP:OSE): (1) Those cities exist in a different context. They might be particularly known for their prostitution and only their prostitution. All cities are unique and therefore require unique treatment of local emphasis. (2) Mention in those cities may too be inappropriate.--Loodog (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Concur..."this is a disproportionate representation of this industry's impact, no sources assert to the level of impact this has on Providence culture" sums up my feelings pretty well. This block is some combination of undue-weight, off-topic (RI-general vs PVD-specific), and spam ovezealous addition of whole paragraphs about this one film to many articles. DMacks (talk) 02:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right. I didn't even catch the pattern of user's additions. I had to just remove the same user's mention to Happy Endings? to the The Phoenix (newspaper) article because the Phoenix is mentioned in the film.  --Loodog (talk) 01:25, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Disagree Actually, Providence was in National news all last week, CNN, ABC and others because of this law.[http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/07/24/pn.sixteen.year.old.strippers.cnn?iref=videosearch<  Since this is the only growing industry in a city that has a high rate of unemployment, how do you figure it is not a part of the culture. People come from all over New England to go to these massage parlors, and as the other reference mentions the Homosexual Bathhouse is the largest in New England (if not the country). And the Phoenix being mentioned, that is not true. A whole chapter/section in the DVD is labeled The Phoenix. Maybe we should just have a whole different section not under popular culture? Here are a few more references. I will wait 24 hours before changing it back, because basically you are whitewashing the article.     I can put up more references, but basically they all say the same. All are on massage parlors in PROVIDENCE.GiselleRI
 * Wikipedia does not work on timetable ultimatums. It will be changed if/when there is consensus to do so.  In the meantime, I will read through your additional source.--Loodog (talk) 01:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Your new sources are also for the whole state. Cicilline is mentioned because of his encouragement of the STATE legislature to make changes, all the while he has no legislative power to change state law.--Louiedog (talk) 19:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And the CNN story has nothing to do with prostitution; it's about underage stripping.--Louiedog (talk) 19:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Update: I'm sorry, there is a tie in to prostitution and the CNN video does establish that the state has been actively debating the issue, but it's a stretch to say prostitution is a part of Providence culture like its arts communities, ethnic neighborhoods, LGBT vibrancy and Waterfire. We need a source attesting that this is an issue in high consciousness of the people of Providence and not state law makers debating a strange loophole.--Louiedog (talk) 19:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems you are more against the issue being put in Culture, so it will go in crime, so I will let you partially white wash it. I added another reference.  http://www.projo.com/ri/providence/content/PROVIDENCE_PROSTITUTION_ORDINANC_09-02-09_AKF_v25.36178f1.html 18:03, 12 September 2009 This link shows how Cicilline is talking about Providence specifically.You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 18:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I have removed it from the crime section. Your argument for why prostitution is notable in Providence is that it is not a crime here. There are no sources here that attest to prostitution being a significant aspect of local culture. I could see arguments for its inclusion in economy if you can pull up sources estimating that prostitution is a not insignificant fraction of the local economy.--Louiedog (talk) 18:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is one from the Projo http://www.projo.com/news/efitzpatrick/edward_fitzpatrick_0115_01-15-09_6PCUPKJ_v18.3d14931.html Here is one, but it is from a blog http://www.rifuture.org/diary/7227/criminalizing-prostitution-will-be-very-bad-for-ri —Preceding unsigned comment added by GiselleRI (talk • contribs) 20:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Both of those talk about the economy and relation to prostitution, but only in terms of vague proposals. To put it in there, we'd really need something that either attests to the dollar amount spent annually and it being a significant portion of the economy (like 1%) or to the number of people employed directly or indirectly as a result and it being a significant number. For comparison the Providence Journal employs 1100 people and "leisure and hospitality" in general employs 58,900 people.


 * I've found estimated 40 brothels in the state . Est. 350 women in street prostitution, (which is illegal).  Arrests for said illegal prostitution was concentrated almost entirely in Providence county, in the city of Providence with significant amounts in Pawtucket, Central Falls, Woonsocket..--Louiedog (talk) 03:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe it should have it's own category then. It is a big part of providence with the Mayor trying to make up ordinances against it.http://www.projo.com/ri/providence/content/PROVIDENCE_PROSTITUTION_ORDINANC_09-02-09_AKF_v25.36178f1.html

http://www.projo.com/ri/providence/content/PROSTITUTION_WORKING_GROUP_08-20-09_USFAG0J_v28.38ab848.html and the Mayor putting out opinion pieces http://www.projo.com/opinion/contributors/content/CT_cicilline19_05-19-09_0UE8N0M_v10.4079d22.html and memos http://www.providenceri.com/press/article.php?id=515 about the effect on his cityYou Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 15:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, that's more of a notability thing in terms of the lawmaking process and government. Certainly, if it's one of his issues, it should be mentioned in his article, with the amount of coverage being proportional to how much of an issue of his tenure he's made it.  Maybe we could turn "government" into "law and government" and put a quick note in there.  It's not law, but that particular lack of law is something it seems Cicilline's attention is drawn to.  Thing is, I wouldn't want to make a section that has "law" and only include the prostitution issue and attempts to illegalize it, but also other notable laws within the city, of which I know none.


 * I'm thinking now about ways to incorporate this factoid into the crime section too. The source I showed above says in 1990 there were roughly 700 street prostitution arrests, though by 2008 this had dropped to 250, much faster dropping than crime as a whole, which is interesting.  If we could get a source comparing the rates of prostitution or prostitution arrests in Providence to that of other cities, we could always drop in the related fact that indoor prostitution, by the way, is actually legal here.--Louiedog (talk) 23:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

2007 population estimates
I had cleaned up the estimates in the first paragraph because in it the 2007 estimated population was in the 172,000s when it was really in the 175,000s. I don't know If I screwed up the article so if someone could look it over that would be great. I know this is a controversial debate and I just wanted to keep the first paragraph consistent with the rest of the article. Another problem with the page is that in the fist couple of paragraphs and in the info box there is no mention to the population in the 2000s census. Although the 2007 census is relevant and important, the actual United States census is taken every 10 years so this article should rely on that census much more then it does. Also, in the demographic section (or whatever you call it) it says that the 2000s census was at 173,000 when the New England chart places it at 172,000s (and I am sorry to say I changed it on that too so if its wrong, I apologize) and the National charts place it at 171,000s and Worcester at 175,000s. Toonami (talk) 17:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"Estimates"
Ok guys, really. This whole 2007 and 2008 estimate thing is causing a lot of problems. The Providence and Worcester "penis contest" is really only based on the estimates. So I am going to remove the estimate population from the main population box and put in the 2000s census box for both cities. I'm also doing that for NE if it needs it. I will still include both 2007 and 2008 estimates in the article, but as for the second biggest city contest, we really should base it on the 2000 census, and just mention the latest "estimate" Toonami (talk) 02:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No penis contest influences. I've just been putting the most recent Census estimate (2008) in the box for the last couple years.  Most cities do not use the 2000 Census except for in demographics section.--Louiedog (talk) 16:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * STOP changing it. We use latest Census estimates for all US cities.--Louiedog (talk) 22:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Crime
We've got to figure out what we're doing with the crime section. I believe the following facts are true and relevant:
 * 1) Crime dropped 2002 to 2007 against national trends, spiked 19.5% in 2008 (for which police implicate cell phone robberies, gang-related incidents and a poor economy), and purportedly dropped again in 2009 due to police initiatives.
 * 2) 11 murders in 2006 was a historic low, 14 murders in 2007, 13 in 2008.

The rest of that paragraph we seem to easily agree on.

I disagree with the following additions you've made:
 * 1) The exact number of crimes. Absolute numbers don't mean much, and people can't intuitively think in terms of them.  This is why the crime rate (usually defined as crimes per 100,000 people) is defined.
 * 2) The statement about 2008 crime being contrary to national trends due to FBI source making national statement. I dislike this for two reasons: (a) it's very tenuous to call anything a "trend" that comes out of two data points, and (b) it violates WP:SYNTH.  We are not qualified to compare FBI data to wherever this data comes from and the methodology is often different.  We would need a source (e.g. the FBI) making that comparison explicitly.

--Louiedog (talk) 22:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC) Sorry, not trying to do WP:SYNTH with the FBI crime rates, but then how does "The rate of violent crime in the city dropped from 2002 to 2007 running contrary to contemporaneous national trends in comparably sized cities" not involved some sort of synthesis?You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The source explicitly compared the trends, which are also less dubious over the course of 5 years as compared to 1.--Louiedog (talk) 16:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "The decrease in killings and violent crime in Providence runs contrary to a national trend over the past few years in which cities comparable to Providence and larger cities generally have seen an increase."--Louiedog (talk) 16:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

How about removing national statistics and numbers, putting in percentages only : The number of violent crimes committed in Providence rose 19.5 percent in 2008. Property crimes also increased in 9.7 percent in 2008. [1]Crime overall was up 12 percent in 2008, for which police implicate cell phone robberies, gang-related incidents and a poor economy. Police chief Dean Esserman said that initiatives have been taken and crime in 2009 has dropped as a result.[2][3][4][5][3] Those increases follow flat or declining crime rates in 2005, 2006 and 2007. In 2006 there were a historic low of 11 murders, though this rose to 14 in 2007 and 13 in 2008. Averaged over three years, murders had highest concentrations in Olneyville and the West End neighborhoods.[6] Of the 239 United States cities with populations over 100,000, Providence's violent crime rate ranked 84th in 2003, as compared with New York City at 94th and Boston at 28th.[7] Notwithstanding its comparatively low rate of violent crime, Providence has the fifth-highest rate of property crime per 100,000 inhabitants in the country,[8] which is 50% above the national average, with car theft in particular at 150% higher.[9]


 * Come to think of it, I don't think percentage comparisons by year are a good way to open up a crime section anyway. It'd be like opening up the demographics section by saying, "Average income in Providence was higher in 2009 than 2008." That tells nothing.  We should open with statements about total crime rate in Providence compared to other cities, proceed from there to discussion about any trends in the figures.--Louiedog (talk) 16:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * How about:


 * "Of the 239 United States cities with populations over 100,000, Providence's violent crime rate ranked 84th in 2003, as compared with New York City at 94th and Boston at 28th. Notwithstanding its comparatively low rate of violent crime, Providence has the fifth-highest rate of property crime per 100,000 inhabitants in the country,[8] which is 50% above the national average, with car theft in particular at 150% higher. Both property crime and violent crime rates were heavily dependent on neighborhood.  The rate of violent crime in the city had dropped from 2002 to 2007 running contrary to contemporaneous national trends in comparably sized cities, though it rose 19.5 percent in 2008. Crime overall was up 12 percent in 2008, for which police implicate cell phone robberies, gang-related incidents and a poor economy. Police chief Dean Esserman said that initiatives have been taken and crime in 2009 has dropped as a result.  The 11 murders in 2006 was a historic low, though this rose to 14 in 2007 and 13 in 2008. Averaged over three years, murders had highest concentrations in Olneyville and the West End neighborhoods"


 * --Louiedog (talk) 17:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why we would open up the article with 2003 statistics when 2008 are available. I also question why trends are ok to use when it was a downward trend from 2003-2006 but not an upward trend recently?You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 17:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd love to open with 2008 comparisons, but I can't find any. When it comes down to it, the most useful thing to say is how a city's crime compares to those of others.


 * Trends are OK because they're in the source as an explicit comparison. If you can find a source explicitly commenting that Providence's crime was up in 2008 contrary to national trends, that would be good to include as well.--Louiedog (talk) 18:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This reference should do then

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_wpri_rhode_island_crime_increase_fbi_stats_20090914 "Crime statistics just released by the FBI Monday show that even though crime was down for the nation in 2008, it was a different picture in Rhode Island. Nationally, violent crime declined by nearly two percent in 2008."You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 20:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be perfect for the Rhode Island article; I see nothing in here about Providence.--Louiedog (talk) 20:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we need more people to discuss this, lets see if we can get some others in here to discuss or bring it to be reviewed.
 * Yeah, I looked through the sources and the newsblog source says it's using FBI numbers, while the FBI report obviously is as well. Comparing the two seems perfectly reasonable, though I'm worried about it falling under WP:SYNTH.  Comment from others would help.--Louiedog (talk) 21:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a little older, but I think it provides some context for the discussion.

"Like many major cities, Providence has witnessed a significant drop in its crime rate during the 1990s, for which the police have been given much credit. In 1998, serious crime in Providence was at its lowest point in 30 years."

Citizens’ Views on Urban Revitalization: The Case of Providence, Rhode Island, Urban Affairs Review, Vol. 37, No. 3, 397-419 (2002) 10.1177/10780870222185397  --mikeu talk 15:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The data for 1993-2004 can be found here. (p. 9) It is from Criminal and Juvenile Statistics at the Dept. of Public Safety.  --mikeu talk 17:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The statewide method of collecting and reporting crime data has changed over the past few years. The Uniform Crime Report from the State Police cautions that "It is not meaningful to compare Summary data to IBR data." (p. 14) Providence adopted the new system Jan. 1, 2007. (p. 24) --mikeu talk 17:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

So how should we report it? I think it is a little silly to report all the way back to 1993 when we have recent data but if we agree we should put in the facts from 1993 to 2008 it will just show that the rate went down and now up. 19:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The most important material is the 2008-2009 rate compared with other cities. After this, the recent trends is also important to put present rates into context.--Louiedog (talk) 20:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This crime rate article is very very white washed. I put the tag on it so people can help in the debate.  There has been no conclusion to anything on the talk page so the tag should stay until we can come to an agreement.

I don't understand why we put the older data first and only give a short sentence to the current data. It seems like it is being white washed. You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I really don't think we need an "expand" tag on that section. The breadth of the section is fine and covers enough detail for the notability of crime in the city.


 * As for the reason older numbers are first: Because absolute numbers are more relevant than percent changes from year to year. As I've said before, the 2003 statistic was the most recent figure comparing to other large cities. If you can find a more recent figure, I'd be glad to go with that.  Also, the second sentence is "Providence has the fifth-highest rate of property crime" so I'm not sure how this is whitewashing.  We could put the property crime sentence first if that would make the difference to you.  The notable things about Providence crime are simply that its violent crime rate is low, property crime rate is high, and there was a significant drop across the board from 2002-2007, followed by a relative uptick in murders.--Louiedog (talk) 19:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, you can see these trends here.--Louiedog (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't understand how you want it recorded, when I put in hard figures you don't want absolute numbers. When I put in percentage, you don't want that either.  If you read this section now you would think crime is not up, and it is and up tremendously, ie murders are at an all time high You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 04:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I meant absolute as in total amount of crime vs. percent differences from year to year. If I ask you "how rich is Bill Gates", saying, "he's worth 5% more than he was last year" is useless.  These total amounts should go first.  This does not mean simply listing the number of each type of crime but rather listing how each type compares to other cities and nationally e.g. "Burglary and car theft, in particular constitute 1.12 and 2.49 times the national average".


 * Find newer numbers if you can but its ranking relative to New York and Boston is probably not dramatically different from what it was 6 years ago.


 * "If you read this section now you would think crime is not up, and it is and up tremendously, ie murders are at an all time high." I don't follow this at all. Crime is down across the board except for murders.  The paragraph says this. And murders are not at an all time high - they're down 13% since 2002 when there were 23 murders.--Louiedog (talk) 16:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Murders are at 20. Quote from the Mayor: While concerned about the up tick in homicides this year, Mayor David Cicilline said he had full confidence in the Providence police force.

“All I know is that we have the responsibility to continue to do everything we can to make Providence a safe city and reduce crime, particularly violent crime," Cicilline said. "The increase in murder from last year to this year is significant. The department is working aggressively on a variety of both old and new strategies.” You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * There were indeed 20 homicides this year, which the section states: "However, as December 7th, 2009 there had been 20 homicides for the year." So it's covered and without contradiction from what you say here.--Louiedog (talk) 02:03, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is an article with good stats and comparison to regional cities http://www.projo.com/news/content/PROVIDENCE_MURDERS_12-20-09_42GQKAD_v32.3991943.html?ocp=2#slcgm_comments_anchor 68.9.100.110 (talk) 14:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice article: it attributes speculated cause, gives how the murder were distribution by neighborhood, and compares to nearby cities.--Louiedog (talk) 15:24, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we should use Worcester as a comparison because it is the same size of Providence. The other cities in the article referenced are smaller.You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 01:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's fine. I just didn't want a long list of cities to compare to.  Also, I've made some changes to tighten up the section.--Louiedog (talk) 07:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Washington Park is NOT a poor section of providence and crime is not an issue. I live here, I have no problems in three years. It is a family neighborhood and I am offended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.134.135 (talk) 01:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Crime Rate
Can not come to agreement on how to report crime rate. Please help. You Can&#39;t Clap with One Hand (talk) 14:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move to Providence

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was not done, per SNOW. Skomorokh, barbarian  15:19, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Providence, Rhode Island → Providence — Seeing as the other articled referring to Providence (History of Providence, Neighborhoods of Providence, etc) do not include "Rhode Island" in their titles, I propose that we keep things consistent and move the article to Providence and put a note at the top for other uses. I think there is enough of a majority to do this, and it would keep the names consistent. CaptPicard (talk) 17:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't think it will happen, Jean Luc. Since Providence is not on the list of permissible exceptions to the USA [city, state] format, you will not get support for this.  Getting "Providence" to redirect here, however, does not have this problem.  I'd at least try that first.--Louiedog (talk) 18:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose — The stated rationale is consistency of naming. Consistency is less important than many other guidelines here.  And it can go two ways:  perhaps the page names of those other articles should be changed to be more consistent with Providence, Rhode Island. --Una Smith (talk) 19:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't even know of such a list. I just wanted to propose this because of the consistency, and that the majority of Google results for Providence are about the Rhode Island city.  It's not my intent to do anything against the established rules for Wikipedia. CaptPicard (talk) 20:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Its okay. Consistency is one of the principles of Naming conventions, but there are others, and in this case the current page name of this article is more consistent. --Una Smith (talk) 00:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * More consistent? What does that mean?  How does one determine which is "more" consistent?  --Born2cycle (talk) 19:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Consistency is relative. One consistency argument is that because History of Providence etc refers to this Providence, the page name of this Providence should be Providence.  Another consistency argument is that because most Wikipedia articles about US cities have the page name format "City, State", the page name of this Providence should be Providence, Rhode Island.  Both arguments are valid.  The question is, which argument is more consistent?  Judging by the views expressed here, the second one is.  Judging by the number of Wikipedia articles consistent with each argument, the second one is.  There are other metrics by which we might compare these two arguments and decide which one is more consistent. --Una Smith (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose to renaming here, and support renaming those other articles, as there are a fair number of Providences scattered around the US. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:24, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Consistency for its own sake cannot overrule other policies and guidelines, in particular Louiedog's link. Conversely, renaming the others to match this seems reasonable (consistency and other guidelines all align). DMacks (talk) 19:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose - target is not suitably unambiguous, the article at Divine Providence would have as much case to be at Providence. The current situation with the disambiguation page is best. Knepflerle (talk) 22:23, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I agree with Una that in general, consistency in the naming of similar articles has less "weight" than other more fundamental naming guidelines. Primary usage of this name for this topic is not even claimed, much less established.  If Providence already redirected here, you'd have a strong case.  --Born2cycle (talk) 00:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose I don't think this is a primary topic over all providence. As a non-native English speaker, the word, "providence" rings me dictionary terms, not a capital of the state in the U.S.--Caspian blue 20:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. If there's a primary meaning of "Providence", it's Divine Providence - if there isn't, the status quo is correct, with Providence as the dab page.  Tevildo (talk) 21:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This would be inconsistent with other cities its size. Clevelander96 (talk) 23:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose primary meaning is Divine Providence. 76.66.194.183 (talk) 03:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:PLACE. Long exposition on this here. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Stuckley Westcott
While editing the article about Yeovil in England I can across a reference to Stuckley Westcott who is not mentioned in this article - described as Early American (17th century) settler. Co-founder, with Roger Williams and 11 others, of Providence, Rhode Island (1636), early American religious freedom asylum. In trying to find out more & provide a reference I can across the reference which may be of interest/use to those editing this article?&mdash; Rod talk 15:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

In history
Providence was the 9th largest city at the beginning of the 19th century. It was much later that Brown and Sharpe, Gorham, which had been founded in the early 19th century, grew to be the largest in their respective areas (machine tools, silverware). Hence the reversal of the order in the article.--68.9.182.221 (July 21, 2010).

Providence Area
Whats with the new(ish) area figures at the top? 43.5 sq mi? I think not. Before, 20.5 sq mi was listed, and is still teh figure quoted in the Geography section. Cranston, by my estimation looks to eb slightly larger than Providence and is 29.9 sq mi, so I think it's clear 20.5 is the correct number, as are the land and water amountsof 18.5 and 2.1. Who changed these figures? and why teh devil did they do this? I thought they may have been confused and used the metric values instead, but no, so I'm confused. Can someone with the austhority change them back please, because I fear if I do, it'll just be reverted. Though, there are no references so maybe I will change them.. VanillaBear23 (talk) 11:14, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:36, 1 May 2016 (UTC)