Talk:Prussian Blue (duo)

Requested move 22 January 2019

 * aaand it's move-protected. Awaiting admin help.    SITH   (talk)   17:50, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I’ve requested this to be moved at WP:RM/TR. PorkchopGMX  ( talk with me  -  what i've done ) 19:17, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * it’s been moved. PorkchopGMX  ( talk with me  -  what i've done ) 00:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved: overall, consensus seems to be in favour of the move, especially due to the evidence of some sources using capitals to refer to the colour. (closed by non-admin page mover)  SITH   (talk)   17:49, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Prussian Blue → Prussian Blue (duo) – Per the edit summary of the lone edit currently located at Prussian Blue (duo), this page was moved due to "unnecessary disambiguation". Per the content currently at Prussian blue (disambiguation), that is no longer true. For one, Prussian Blue (album) now exists. In addition, external sources name the color Prussian blue with a capital "B" ("Prussian Blue"). Also, the ratio of |Prussian_blue pageviews between Prussian Blue versus Prussian blue is about 1:2 average, meaning that there is a good chance that some readers may be looking for the color by searching the term with a capital "B", and then end up arriving at Prussian Blue, the musical duo's article, as a WP:SURPRISE. For these reasons, I think after almost a decade, it is time to move this page back to Prussian Blue (duo); "(duo)" seems to be a disambiguator with precedence for such articles about 2-person musical groups. In addition, I think Prussian Blue should be redirected to Prussian blue (disambiguation) since I do not believe there is a strong enough case per WP:DIFFCAPS to have the ambiguous title with a capitalized "B" target the color, but do not oppose retargeting Prussian Blue to Prussian blue if consensus swings that way. Steel1943 (talk) 18:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC) --Relisted. –Ammarpad (talk) 16:38, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:PRECISE. Prussian Blue (album) gets about 3 hits per day, compared to 374 for Prussian Blue |Prussian_Blue, so that doesn't change anything from the previous RM as far as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The different capitalization means there is no title conflict with Prussian blue. There may be some readers who land here who want the color, but there's a hatnote in place to take care of that minority. There's no need to divert those who want the group's article to somewhere they don't want to be. Station1 (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * "...The different capitalization means there is no title conflict with Prussian blue..." That's just untrue since Prussian Blue is neither the title of the color's article, nor a redirect to the article for the color. And how were you able to determine the "...minority..." that look up the capitalized term expecting to find the color? I know I don't have any such tool to do that, and the surprise factor for those looking up the color by a capital "B" arriving at an article about a neo-Nazi band has to be the almost strongest example of a WP:SURPRISE I could ever imagine that cannot be resolved by simply a link in a hatnote. Steel1943  (talk) 22:35, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * If there were two articles, each of whose best title would be "Prussian Blue", there would be a title conflict and we would have to disambiguate at least one of those two titles. But if the best title for the color is "Prussian blue", then there is no title conflict and disambiguation can be handled by the less intrusive means of a hatnote. Experiments with hatnotes on other articles have shown that they are used very roughly 2%-6% of the time. If someone is taking the trouble to capitalize the B in the search box, it seems to me more likely that they are looking for the band than the color, since the band always uses a capital B but the color only sometimes. Coupled with the fact that at a glance there appears to be only one out of 2-300 incoming wikilinks that intends the color, it seems to me very likely that most people landing here are where they want to be. If 5 or 10 people a day land here by mistake and are surprised, I don't know why that wouldn't be resolved by the hatnote.  Station1 (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * One of the reasons that Prussian Blue, the link, is present on so many articles is due to being present on the navigation template Neo-Nazism, which is transcluded on 183 articles, which is probably why the "only one out of 2-300 incoming wikilinks..." is the way that it is, and actually doesn't illustrate how popular links to Prussian Blue are, but rather is just states that there are at least 183 articles about Neo-Nazism on Wikipedia. Steel1943  (talk) 01:44, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Completely true, but my point was that no one is landing on this article because of bad incoming wikilinks. And since virtually no one is landing here by mistake through Google, about the only way someone who really wants the color could land here and be surprised is to type "Prussian Blue" with a capital B in the search box, ignore "Prussian blue" in the dropdown, and enter. Therefore that number must be a small minority (you asked how I determined that). Station1 (talk) 07:04, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Another question just struck me: How does WP:PRECISE apply to capitalization differences? I'm a bit of a WP:PRECISE fanatic myself given that I do some WP:BOLD moves from titles with a disambiguator to titles without a disambiguator (or vice versa) from time-to-time. I'd even go to the extreme to say that citing WP:PRECISE to compare differences in capitalization (such as here) is erroneous since WP:PRECISE primarily deals with parenthetical disambiguation in titles (and the related guideline WP:NATURAL also does to some extent.) Claiming primary topics based on capitalization differences in letters seems to be the purpose of WP:DIFFCAPS, not WP:PRECISE. Steel1943  (talk) 17:54, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * PRECISE includes DIFFCAPS and NATURAL, which are subsections of that same section of the policy at WP:AT, which should ideally be considered as a whole. PRECISE goes to the top of the section which says article titles should be precise but no more precise than necessary. But of course the rest of that section (NATURAL, DIFFCAPS and CONCISE) also applies. As you say, PRECISE does deal with parenthetical disambiguation, which is exactly what you're proposing. Under PRECISE (including NATURAL, DIFFCAPS and CONCISE), parenthetical disambiguation is not indicated in this case, imo, because the current title is precise (it's the actual name of the topic), natural (adding a parenthetical qualifier would make the title artificial), has different capitalization than another topic's title (meaning disambiguating the title is not a technical requirement, i.e. there's no title conflict), and is more concise than the proposed change. Station1 (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think the musical duo should even be in that navbox. A musical group is not the same as a political group, even if their music is political. 62.165.227.102 (talk) 09:32, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I went through all the links and found only three incorrect uses, two meaning Prussian blue and one meaning Prussian Blue (album). I've fixed themn. About thirty articles actually link to the band including: directly, via redirects, list articles, name articles; excluding: disambiguation pages, articles with mentions only in hatnotes or navboxes, the redirects themselves. 62.165.227.102 (talk) 10:36, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking into that! (I would have just used the "thank" option, but that's not available for anonymous editors.) Steel1943  (talk) 12:54, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment on 23 January I, with the ES "this is a former musical duo with a neo-nazi oeuvre, not an organised political group". That was a good-faith bold edit which has not been reverted, but a side-effect is that there are currently only 14 direct links from main space, which I list in the box below:


 * (same editor as 62.125.227.102, different IP) 94.21.204.175 (talk) 08:16, 31 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Support. The pigment has more long-term significance than the disbanded band. I think the disambiguation page is a marginally better target than "Prussian blue", but either is fine by me. 94.21.204.175 (talk) 08:36, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. The DIFFCAPS argument fails because there's no evidence that the different capitalisation does disambiguate between the duo and the chemical. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:18, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per nom - no primary topic for the capitalized "Prussian Blue". Paintspot Infez (talk) 16:58, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose per . No conflict to disambiguate between Prussian Blue the duo and Prussian blue the color per WP:SMALLDETAILS (anyone typing "prussian blue" will go the color and that's very likely what they're seeking; anyone typing "Prussian Blue" will go to the duo and that's very likely what they're seeking), and the duo is clearly the primary topic of Primary Blue over the relatively obscure album at Prussian Blue (album) |Prussian_Blue_(album). --В²C ☎ 19:34, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. There's considerable risk of confusion with the far more prominent topic Prussian blue and its medical use, Prussian blue (medical use). The color is routinely capitalized in sources, so it's reasonable to think that some readers will look for it with capitals. If anything, "Prussian Blue" should redirect to "Prussian blue", which has the majority of page views.|Prussian_blue|Prussian_Blue_(album)|Prussian_blue_(medical_use)--Cúchullain t/ c 15:43, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Articles from External links section
I have removed the following list from the External links section, since excessive lists like this are not appropriate there. I've moved them here because some of these articles may be useful for improving the article. Lennart97 (talk) 16:18, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * "Change of heart: Former Nazi teeny boppers are singing a new tune"
 * Nazi Pop Twins at Ourmedia (documentary on Prussian Blue, in streaming Flash format)
 * Southern Poverty Law Center on Prussian Blue
 * Anti-Defamation League article
 * Tiny Mix Tapes parody article
 * NYU Journalism report on Teen People's decision not to feature Prussian Blue
 * ABC News article
 * New York Daily News article
 * Daily Telegraph article
 * MP3 of a call to Inga Barks Show on KERN Newstalk 1410(Bakersfield) from Lamb Gaede
 * Interview with Vice Magazine on viceland.com
 * Lamb And Lynx Gaede: The Children Of Hate