Talk:Psychedelic trance/Archive 1

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Is Trance-33 the same thing?

The distinction between psy and goa
I've never heard of this genre subdivision before. I have always heard of Psychadelic Trance and Goa trance being the same thing, and though a continuous bass line is one of the features that remains throughout the full history of goa trance, the main essence of the genre I believe would be techno music which is meant to sound good on psycadelics (ie. by focusing on sound design and effects). It is also called trance, not because it is a true subgenre of trance, but for a different unknown reason.

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There is a definite distinction between the two - goa trance is what was produced in the mid 90s and is more tightly constrained than psy trance. Psy trance often has a darker edge, for example Sandman makes psy trance but doesnt make goa trance. Saying that tho, many of the origional goa artists became psy artists.

I guess goa is a subset of psy and generally refers to the earlier works/period of the genre. Its a real but rather fine distinction

Htaccess

The discussion on goa includes a perspective on the division between the two. It's hard for me to say whether I agree with it or not, because I don't believe I've heard the style referred to by that poster as goa, distinct from psy.

In fact some of the recent additions to the list of artists on the goa page show the problem, Atmos is listed there, I would consider Atoms to be psy but not goa, likewise Sandman and Darshan are psy not goa and most stuff produced after 2000 is psy rather than goa. Goa is prana, witchcraft, sundog, total eclipse, mfg, mwnn, koxbox and the earlier works of TIP, Doof, Astral Projection, green nuns, cosmosis etc.

In a 24 hour set there is darker stuff from the middle of the night, thats psy, while morning trance, what they play when the sun comes out is goa. Goa is also more layered and involved, uses more 303 and has more of an Indian influence. Psy is harder darker faster and more minimal but can be very organic and squelchy (Australian psy is like this.), like i said its a fine distinction and diferent people have different definitions. Htaccess 06:15, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The main diference between psychedelic and goa trance, in my opinion, is that goa trance uses a lot of elements from traditional eastern music, like chanting, mantras, etc. Other than that, it's hard to draw any hard line between the two. Not that it's very important either.

The main problem with the psy vs goa arguments is that the genre(s) are still evolving and we're attempting to define them while they're in transition and are, imo, expanding. In 1996 there was Trance, with Vocal/Club, Psy, and Goa subgenres and there was a distinction between Goa and Psy (former having middle eastern/ethnic samples, latter having none of that and sometimes sci-fi samples & futuristic effects). Later on there was significant crossover between the two, in that the same artist would switch the style from song to song. Around 2000 the trance genre fractured into more styles, and club/vocal trance grew more distant from other trance (esp with italo disco influences), ambient trance really emerged, and Psy (psy-trance) became used as a larger term to encompass goa, dark psy, psy (yeah it'd be nice if new names were invented ;p) etc. I agree with the above comment - goa definitely is a pre-2000 phenomenon and I have yet to run into anything that sounds like, say, Green Nuns of the Revolution c1997, these days. The term will disappear from usage in another five years. Oh, also, there is are more differences than just middle eastern rhythms/influences for goa - the build up tends to be longer & more drawn out and slower than psy buildups. --Scyfer 06:10, 29 August 2005 (PST)

To Me their are some very easy and specific things that Separate Psy and Goa Trance. First of all Goa trance as previously mentioned IS very constrained and restricted. Also Goa trance, with its origins in Indian culture and such, is more of a Trance music that concentrates on meditation and getting into a deep mind set of thought. Goa Trance is always so soothing and mellowing to me. Second of all Psy trance, is not only darker....well it these days is very "Psychedelic", someone said that Psy trance might have SciFi sampling which is Usually true in such artists as [Infected_Mushroom|Infected Mushrooms] older work, but in Infected Mushrooms older work, much more notably Converting Vegetarians some of the samples are samples are Psychedelic in Nature, or talking about Psychedelic substances talking about such thing as LSD. So yeh I think Psy Trance is more of a Psychedelic feel to it, like LSD and Mesacline...but maybe I just see that because I have used such chemicals? --NekoD 07:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Copyright Infringement
Are you certain that moodbook.com didn't copy from Wikipedia? If you look over the History of Psychedelic trance over the past two years, it seems to have gradually become more and more like moodbook.com's current entry. I looked up moodbook.com on archive.org, and only found a version of the page from Feb 2004. The domain "moodbook.com" was created Oct 07, 2003, but Wikipedia's Psychedelic Trance entry goes back to June 7, 2003. Looks to me more like moodbook.com is the copyright infringer, but I could be mistaken. --Thoric 20:19, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * After further investigation, I think you are right. Specifically, check out the evolution of this line:


 * This type of trance is used mainly in the UK and recently many Japanese artists have started to take in this genre from the influence of UK DJ's. - Wikipedia 15 Nov 2002 (first entry from a small stub-like article)
 * Recently, (2002) many Japanese artists have started to take in this genre from the influence of UK DJs. - Wikipedia 15 Nov 2002
 * As of 2002 many Japanese artists have started to take in this genre from the influence of UK DJs. - Wikipedia 5 Nov 2003 - same as Moodbook.com!


 * Clearly it originated on WP and not Moodbook. I'll try to bring this to the attention of admin on the copyvio page.  Not sure what else could/should be done. -Ld | talk 06:34, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Good call Thoric. I checked out the Wiki article on Trance and some of the original phrasing, as of 17:46, Oct 11, 2001, was "perhaps the most ambiguous genre in the realm of electronic dance music (EDM), trance could be described as a melodic, more-or-less freeform style of music derived from techno. Or house", which is VERY close to the moodbook.com phrasing "Perhaps the most ambiguous genre of dance music, trance could be described as a melodic, more or less freeform style of music, partially derived from house". It looks like the Wiki stuff predates the moodbook stuff. Thanks.-->Chemical Halo 07:11, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's resolved for now. I have listed MoodBook.com on the forks and mirrors page.

Having wathched this article evolve from a stub in mid 2003 I am fairly certain there has been no large influx of new copy vio material, thus its far more likely to be the other way round which is incedentally still a copy violation because they have not included the terms of the GNU FDL "You may copy and distribute the Document in any medium, either commercially or noncommercially, provided that this License, the copyright notices, and the license notice saying this License applies to the Document are reproduced in all copies, and that you add no other conditions whatsoever to those of this License."Htaccess 07:46, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

303 Rare in psy trance?
I think the article reads okay; however, it is wrong to say - if comparing the genre to older goa music - that producers would use a Roland TB303. The majority of psychedelic trance artists would not use this instrument instead preferring digital synthesizers such as the Access Virus, Nord Lead, or Korg MS-2000 and/or plugin synths. Use of Roland TB303s is quite rare now, with the wide availability of plugin clones, and the rarity and cost of the original. I'd even go so far to dispute that goa music used the Roland TB303 in the early 1990s, pioneer artists Hallucinogen (Shpongle, The Infinity Project) AKA Simon Posford used a SH-101 - as he states on his website -, which was a more popular synth in the goa genre.

This is good info, you should consider adding it to the article, especially if you can provide backup like you do in the case of Simon Possford. Im not sure how rare the 303 was in early psy trance, time to go and listen to some of my old CD's I guess, but I'm pretty sure it will be easy to make quite a long list of psy tracks that feature the 303 Htaccess 21:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, SH-101 is the synth that the characteristic psy/goa bassline evolved from (of course now the sound is mostly immitated with other more more modern and maleable synths), not the TB-303, alhthough the TB-303 sound was and is used sometimes, it is definitely rare in modern psy (certainly rare compared to other EDM) and almost never used for the bassline (the only time I hear it it is a background synth, and in the mid 90s it was used with heavy distortion for the "duck" sound sometimes). There are a few things that are innacurate in the intro. It was apparently written by someone who isn't very familiar with the realities of EDM production. (125-150 is not "a faster tempo than techno, house...etc", most house is far above 125--DOWNTEMPO is 125, most house is 135-140, and techno is almost always 140+)--Brentt 03:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

You bring up some valid arguments. Most Psychedelic pieces are usually around 146 BPM (Astrix - Tweaky) is I know that for a fact. I would say between 140-150 BPM. I know for a fact house is between 130 - 135 BPM and techno is well above 145 BPM Happy Hardcore or Gabber is a simple example I was going to fix that. What the hell do you mean TB-303 is never used? were the hell else would those squelches and sweeps comes from? The accent is a dead give away. The accent on the 303 can't be emulated period, neither can the slide pitch. The 3-pole 18 db/oct lowpass filter and resonance, however can be. You might be right about the SH-101 it was used in the 80's by "keytar" artists in pop/rock bands. It has an arpeggiator on it so you have a valid point. The problem is they made all of these damn "303" clones, because people liked the sound of the resonating sawtooth oscillator. They aren't "monophonic synthesizers" also they are called "Substractive Synthesizers". They are analog in that they are voltage controlled though, especially ones from the 80's. Anyway as someone mentioned below most substractive synths are the same when you get down the fundamentals, it's hard to differentiate although some examples are fine like the 303. The "duck" sound you are referring to is when you tweak the lowpass filter cutoff and the accent through. It can be done in rapid succession, because you program 303 rather than play it. The same can be applied to anything that has an arpeggiator like the Access Virus. -129.x.x.x.x wikilurker. I will create an account when I have more time. 01:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

"Beyond standard percussion and melodic sounds, there are the most distinctive part of psytrance – the generally non-pitched sounds. Many of the squeakier ones are derived from the Roland 303 bass synthesizers, played in a very high register rather than a low one.4 Some of these sounds also sound like they result from fm synthesis with very high modulation". This comes from the source I added under history of it's musical structure. I can verify a lot of the information said on that page too. In fact if you want to talk about high modulation listen to the solo on Infected Mushroom (Citites Of The Future). I fairly confident that's FM Synthesis with crazy pitch-bend programming. Clavia Nord is an synthesizer were you can program something like this, however with software these days you never can really tell.

"Both goa and psychedelic trance pieces generally feature a strong bassline which evolved from the sounds originally created with Roland's SH-101 analogue synthesizer (although the SH-101 sound is usually emulated by more modern synths today)."

I think this type of information is largely irrelevant for this type of broad post so I removed it. It does support the removal of reference to the TB303, but this shouldn't be replaced with the SH101, there is no one synth that can be attributed to the sound of psytrance. These types of monophonic synthesizers all sound extremely similar anyway (I have a 101 and it is not that different to my Juno 106 or bass-station if you tweak the patch). I also think "maleable" is an unclear term, especially in relation to synthesis. Many popular plugins - note VB-1 - sport less parameters than the SH101. Not sure about "duck" sounds, perhaps you could give an example instead of offhand references? You could probably make duck sounds with many 4 pole subtractive synths, the 101 really isn't that different. --anonymous

- I've never found a Psychedelic Trance artist's equipment list with a TB303, it might be difficult to spot just listening to albums as there are/were quite a few less expensive analogue clones on the market such as the Novation Bass-Station and MAM FAT FreeBass 383 which sport the 3 pole filter that people recognize in the TB303. Infected Mushroom use these analogue clones, see their studio list:

http://www.infected-mushroom.de/artarea/artarea-eq/artarea-eq.htm

Also the Native Instruments plugin Rebirth has a TB303 emulator, this plugin has been around for a while. Quite a few synths (Access Virus) also have a 6 pole filter, which can sound like a 303's 3 pole. I am sure some artists would have used a TB303, though it is hard to find evidence compared to the SH101, Juno 60, Korg MS-10 (see Infected Mushroom link above and Hallucinogen link below). It should be noted that there is evidence that many new artists known for the "full-on" sound use Cubase SX's VB-1 bass-synth plugin (Orion, Astrix).

I'd love to add some links to the article, but I don't know how to do it yet! Perhaps someone else could add them. In fact, these might help resolve the argument above, in that there is a technical difference between Goa and Psychedelic Trance in the use of equipment, which lends to the general sound quality. I was in Goa last year (2004) and I saw GMS, Paul Taylor, and Kindzadza play live, so I do still think there is a "scene" in Goa, though it is still quite underground in that it is often "word of mouth" due to police and community noise/legal restraints. I reckon there is many more mopeds now than there was in the 90s though and it is weird to call this music just "Goa", most people would think this term antiquated and that isn't what Wikipedia is all about!

http://www.growlingmadscientists.com/info.studio.html

Here is a good list of GMS's studio, note the emphasis on digital synthesizers and lack of analogue. GMS used to use a Korg Prophecy, an early digital monophonic synthesizer, though probably not used any more. Latest computers of course and Logic Pro 7.

http://www.twisted.co.uk/profiles/hallucinogen/studio.html

Here is a list of Hallucinogen's studio, note he still lists many analogue synths, he claims that he made the first Shpongle album with the SH101, Akai S3000 sampler and his computer. Simon Posford had an extensive description of his studio on his official website displaying a rack of broken effects and outboard units, his Korg MS-10 and Roland SH101, but it seems to have disappeared. In the inside cover of his second album "Tales of the Inexpressible" you can see his Roland SH101.

In a 2002 interview Talamasca claims he only uses his computer and Native Instruments Reaktor for much of his music, adding weight to the idea that the general trend in Psychedelic Trance - and dance music generally - is a move away from hardware to software.

http://www.psynews.org/intervws/talamas2.htm

It can be misleading seeing these artists in a live situation, I've had experience setting up for quite a few known artists, promoters tend to arrange the instruments available for the event, though these can differ dramatically from what is requested by the artist. Most of the time a Nord Lead, Mackie Desk, Roland SH101, and Korg MS2000 are just props - not even plugged in - while the artist plays off their laptop, either with plugins or just mixing audio tracks. I don't think this necessarily detracts from the performance however, it would be virtually impossible to physically "play" all the parts in a song with only two people, and many digital synths (Virus, Nord Lead) can have up to 16 multi-timbral channels at once! Most sounds you hear in songs are heavily processed with effects as it is, hardly reflective of the original sound in the synthesizer. It kind of reminds me of those eighties video clips where the band didn't have their guitars plugged in, but were still playing!

Like I said, you should start editing, just read How to edit a page and then click theedit button, its not hard :) Htaccess 09:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Spelling/grammar
I've made some minor spelling and grammatical changes to this article. Love tha psytrance, but most people who are into it can't spell at all. :) --Myrkabah
 * Thanks! We're always trying to improve - it's a lot better than it used to be a few months ago. -Ld | talk 18:44, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Remove Popular Albums ?
I think we are going to have a general problem with this page since it contains a list of albums under a section titled "popular". I work for a psytrance record company and there are A LOT of albums. I think everyone who releases an album wants their's listed and since "popular" is subjective. That doesn't leave much for verifiability. As a solution maybe boycot 2005 albums until 2006? Other suggestions?--Kim Nevelsteen 19:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Brutal suggestion: I propose to remove the entire section of "popular" albums on the basis that it is completely subjective to region, style, personal preference, etc... If you look at Gothic Rock the article is more encyclopedic in the way that it lists the foundations of the genre but doesn't have a section of "popular" music.--Kim Nevelsteen 14:00, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a wikipedia acccount, but never the less I agree with you on the popular albums perspective. -User:24.147.201.151 18:14, 27 August 2005 (EST)

I dislike the popular album listing, if only because it's inaccurate and doesn't take into account global popularity at all. It also ignores a lot of mid/late 90s releases that were more popular than some of the albums listed and entire *significant* groups not even mentioned (Juno Reactor, Cydonia, Etnica, etc. - oh wait! they're in the goa section by mistake -.- Beyond the Infinite? Goa? ). Rename the list to "a few examples of psy trance listed by year" and that would be more accurate. --User:Scyfer 05:54, 29 August 2005 (PST)
 * "a few examples" will turn into a bigger mess than it already is. I think we need more stringent guidelines for a list. Top selling albums would be best, but there is no source for such a list. There is already a list of artists, I still vote complete removal of the entire "popular" list.(K.Nevelsteen) --None-of-the-Above 16:31, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Psy/Progressive/Full-on - distinction and heirarchy
Second there is no clear distinction between what the hell full-on is vs. what it's not. I was always under the impression full-on was another term for psytrance up around 145 bpm, but anything beyond that is anal retnetive IMO unless you care to explain it to me Kim? Psychedelic trance could be derscribed as 'paranormal' to due to the interesting use of melodies on certain pieces, case in point Astrix - Techno Widows, Vibrasphere - Purple Floating (Cosma Mix), and Infected Mushroom - Ratio Shmatio those are all prime examples. -User:24.147.201.151 18:14, 27 August 2005 (EST)


 * Ok, for clarity, and this is NOT aimed at you, sorry. This article is completely heading in the wrong direction. There is not a single creditable source for anything here. This is an encyclopedia in which we cite sources so that others can check the credibility of the statements made. They don't have be true, but they have to be made by creditable sources. The link sections is a virtual dumping ground for links. The "popular" music section is completely subjective. There is no consolidation between this article and the article of Goa trance music or progressive. What I understand about the psychedelic community is that it started from Goa trance. There were lots of arguments about distinction of styles when more and more psytrance came out. Now years have passed and I believe psychedelic trance is the most broad term for the entire genre with Progressive, Full-on (yes your heavy paced metalic sounds) and Goa as sub-genres. Psytrance encompasses music with heavy bass and others styles that don't necessarily fit in full-on. If this is incorrect compared to what someone else understands under those terms, I ask them to speak out, because this article and the one of Goa trance music need help. Help bringing it to a NPoV with creditable sources that others can check... not opinion. And on that note, this article earns the famous NPoV flag. --Kim Nevelsteen 22:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Try and look at it from a "music theory" perspective that's were sources should be coming from (I could see why finding sources would be quite difficult). I believe that the distinction between psychedelic trance and goa is quite clear. Goa was what it was "originally" called. Goa as as it has been said before calls upon it's "indian classical" influences for it's usage of melodies. Goa is more spiritual in nature. Many Goa artists broke off to form psychedelic trance. Psychedelic is more neo-comsic and futuristic at times with it's melodies and use of sci-fi samples (remember it's not considered western music if it has no melody ;-D). I presume you are referring to Progressive Psy? that stupid genre the swedish conconcoted for lack of better choice of words to try and be creative? i.e (Son Kite) and I still don't understand what heck full-on is? metallic paced is not a good description and it's not musical either (I am not trying to be rude). If you are going to call it that then were does psychedelic trance with heavy metal guitar riff's fit in? I we going to start calling it "Buttrock Goa" as Iskar does in his humorous guide? ;-D. I will try and find some sources for you, but it's going to be tough. Your suggestions seem good -User:24.147.201.151 18:55, 27 August 2005 (EST)

Here is post from psynews were they babble on about the formal definition of the styles (the website is not bad some of the members act like 13 year old's though). I think I understand basically what you are saying now. In order to be full-on it has to be in a certain BPM range say 145 bpm, etc or it's basically psytrance that doesn't invoke any other musical elements like pan flute, guitar, etc? I suppose it would be ok to break it down into certain sub-genres, but then you would need to include examples from each sub-genre and that would be pushing it. For instance if you wanted to call it minimal psytrance then you would need examples, like Goa Gil, etc. My choice of words for describing it as "neo-cosmic" and "futuristic" has to do with the elements and melodies present they sound both neo-cosmic and furturistic (unless there is a certain musical key you could describe it minor, etc). Hopefully somebody else could help out as well. One request I have an issue with the second suggestion some links are to "international" websites. This of course is the english section of wikipedia to don't forget. I think instead of putting them under general information they should be broken up into seperate categories like mailing lists, radio, etc. -User:24.147.201.151 17:35, 28 August 2005 (EST)
 * Since it is a general discussion about the two, I think it is useful to guide use in defining the distinction. However, I don't think it is a very good source since it is just a forum where anyone can edit. For the moment, I am bogged down with exams. Another week and I can do some real research. To clarify I will see that I cut out some samples of each style and try and differentiate. I might recommend you create yourself an account if you plan on contributing a lot. Makes it easier to correspond and it is a very simple process. Thanks for the input so far. --None-of-the-Above 06:59, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Okedoke "full-on" is not a sub-genre at least from what I can tell, but is a synonomous word for regular psychedelic trance. The distinction is made more clear here is a link http://www.psyshop.com/shop/CDs/pmg/pmg1cd001.html. I will let you be the judge -User:24.147.201.151 17:48, 22 October 2005 (EST)

This is a very interesting discussion and I thank you. I want to go on record though as saying that it would be a crying shame if full-on were to become synonymous with psytrance and I hope that's not the direction psymag is trying to move the scene in. Psytrance is best understood as an umbrella genre that contains full-on, progressive, minimal and goa as well as many artists, collaborations, and even individual tracks which blur the distinctions between those boundaries.

What about other sub-(sub?)-genres like morning and dark? I'm not shure if they're really sub-genres like full-on and prog, but, at least in Brazil, they're commonly mentioned out there as psytrance --200.185.250.159 23:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There are only two sub-genres as far as I am concerned, full-on and progressive. If it doesn't have any musicology you really can't consider it a style. I wrote the entire section of the musicology of Goa Vs. Full-On, etc and consulted with Brentt on it. Anything else that anyone else writes is heresay and excuse me language but "f1ck!" these scenes. I wrote the article with a incredible source and my knowledge of basic music theory --HotshotGG 20:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC).

Suggestions

 * 1) Remove the "popular" album list and replace with a detailed explanation (with artist examples) of each generation of music evolving to the next, so that people can get a clear picture of this evolution.
 * May I suggest "MOVE" instead of "REMOVE" the album list. A new article, or category, at least for future

reference. -asmadeus 22:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem there. It might indeed be of use even though there is already a List of psychedelic trance artists--None-of-the-Above 04:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * 1) Clean up the dumping ground of links, especially the 'General information'. Wikipedia is an unbiased international encyclopedia. The links give should enlighten the reader to what psytrance is about or its history. Links to radio, mailing lists, etc.. are beyond the scope of this article. The links should be international, not pertaining to a specific group and preferably for English readers.
 * 2) CITE SOURCES: add links or reference to major CREDIBLE sources that backup what is being said so that others can check their work.
 * 3) consolidate the articles and specify the difference between Psytrance, Goa trance, full-on, progressive, etc... If there is a large discussion about the difference it needs to be discussed here until a mainstream concensus has been reached.

I have moved them all to List of psychedelic trance artists and linked to List of psychedelic trance artists (as that list seemed big enough already). Rex the first talk 16:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Step 1
Are we unanimous that Psychedelic trance encompasses Goa Trance, Progressive Trance, Full-on and other sub-genres? In other words that Psychedelic Trance is the broadest Genre of this style? Please state your opinion.
 * Yes --None-of-the-Above 20:31, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No I do not agree. Progressive Trance is a branch of Trance. It's on the same level as Psychedelic Trance. Full-On seems to be a branch of Psy Trance however. Goa Trance seems to be very synonymous with Psy Trance. -asmadeus 21:51, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input! Do you know more history behind Progressive and why you think it is a branch of Trance? --None-of-the-Above 05:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


 * There is a progressive side to psychedelic trance, undisputedly. It is not the same as the progressive trance of big clubs and such. The problem here is that many people within the psytrance community refer to the music simply as "trance" (see isratrance for example) and so rather than a long name like "progressive psychedelic trance" it's just "progressive" or "progressive trance". The various strains of psytrance emerge and return to the fold - sometimes they're just in use for a short period of time. Someone knowledgable should definatly make note of the "big movements" of which full-on, progressive, and "darkpsy" are currently in vogue. The style known as minimal would have been a big thing from 2000 to 2003. So what are we arriving at here... psychedelic trance is the genre, and within that genre you will have various styles expressed through movements. I think it may be important to make that distinction. It's nice that people are trying to avoid subjectivity for this article but it's just not going to happen - this is music we're talking about, and it's a type of music that is particularly underdocumented. There is no mainstream press here - no one is writing books on the subject for the most part. Go with an expert's opinion on matters of genre/style hair-splitting, I would say. 2 cents. peace.
 * You might want to add where you are from for clarity. Your statement is not too far off with my thoughts I don't think. --None-of-the-Above 18:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Not sure who the person was with the above thorough statement (wasn't me). But I agree with what he says... -asmadeus 22:42, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes! I agree with the anonymous poster. I am the guy who posted above only using a different IP Address I will create a wiki account shortly. "Darkpsy" is what I was thinking of especially Goa Gill compilation. -Anonymous 19:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC).


 * I would agree that Progressive darkpsy and full on are all subgenres of Psytrance but I think Psybreaks is different. The first group all have 4 to the floor beats whereas Psybreaks is built around Breakbeats and is not as "pumping". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.49.42 (talk) 00:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Link Pruning
Its time for a link prune for this article, links should be to informative information about psychadelic trance and not links to forums, internet radio stations and the like. I did this with the trance article and there were onl 2 links out of about 15 that had any useful information. Htaccess 07:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I plan on removing them myself, it's either that or placing them under a seperate sub-header. If there is any objection to this please feel free to let me know here. I will wait for a response. 15:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

---+++

Hi!!!, We´re artists, musicians, ecologyst, etc. We have an Alternative and new Encyclopedia about Psychedelia, Shamanism, art, culture, travels, Psychedelic Trance Scene, health, etc. Promoting the new and alternative artists and musicians. Also, we have a shop with articles of another artist, and made by us too. (artesanal articles, recycle material, natural seeds, etc. a little shop, another artists ans musicians in the article have shops too) We added our link in the Article "Psychedelic Trance" - "Trance" - "PsyTrance", because we think our little encyclopedia content good and alternative ans serious info about that topics related to the real psychedelia movement (hippie movements, and alternative arts). We are a Forum too... but this is not the only "section" of our site. Lso in our forum we talk about more serious information. We have a suscription for our encyclopedy, as a colaboration to keep this proyect growing. And is a opened colaboration. No a exact amount o quantities. Our links pages: links to another pages with the same profile, or websites with serious info too. Sorry for added our link here to many times, but we didnt know that was not rigth :(, We think our website is not an comercial website.

http://www.nativosweb.com/enciclopedia.html (Nativos Cosmic Encyclopedia)


 * Sorry, but it's a foreign language link. It may be welcome on thw wikipedia version for whatever language it's in (showing my ignorance of languages). See List of Wikipedias for the full list. --GraemeL (talk) 19:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I just organized the links section by category and commented out the artists section (since it seems that there was already a consensus that the artists section was getting out of hand). I hope nobody minds the new categories. I still plan to organize the portals and community links by country/region, and the rest of the categories alphabetically so as not to show any bias to different links. Furthermore, any links to sites not containing English will be removed as well. If anyone has a problem with this please let me know and it can be discussed.--RedPoptarts 10:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Not to denigrate anyone's efforts, but the links section still kind of sucks. P4k 00:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Organising the talk page
Hi, I have just been adding headings and moving some of the comments, I hope people dont mind. There is still a section between Suggestions and Link Pruning that I have not messed with. I would like to but I'm a bit cautious of messing with peoples comments any more than I have already. Perhaps people could move their own comments to the apropriate section where discussion can be focused on a particular area. Htaccess 22:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I am in favor. If you want to prune the links go ahead. Keep organizing the section, I am reading through the article and adding in any extra information. 15:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Psy trance in Cape Town
In the the History section it mentions South Africa as having a "small but active" psytrance scene. I went to Cape Town from December to February and I'd have to say the scene there is MASSIVE and EXTREMELY active! It seemed to me that Cape Tonians (is the spelling correct?)are totally obsessed with psytrance. There are many parties happening every weekend and a multitude of artists producing new music. I also met many travelers that, like me, went to Cape Town because we heard that the psyscene is so awesome. I went expecting a lot, but was totally blown away! Anybody else been to Cape Town for the psychedelic trance? Really, I'm wondering if CT shouldn't be specifically mentioned in the psycedelic trance article.

Neutral point of view
I've removed the NPOV tag. If there are some areas that need further discussion, please add the taga again using an edit summary and discuss it here. brenneman (t) (c) 08:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Subtractive Synthesis
I removed the phrase "subtractive synthesizer" from the following:
 * The use of analog synthesizers for sound synthesis has given way to digital "virtual analogue" Subtractive synthesizer instruments like the Nord Lead, Access Virus, Korg MS-2000, Roland JP-8000 and computer VST and AU plugins like Native Instruments Reaktor.

For one thing it implies (whether intentionally or unintentionally) that subtractive synthesis is specific to "virtual analog", when in fact subtractive synthesis is a method of synthesis used in both analogue and "virtual analog" (subtractive synthesis is whats being emulated). Not only that, its only one form of synthesis and psy-trance uses other kinds of synthesis even more than other genres, like FM and granular (to get technical usually other forms of synthesis, like FM or granular, usually use subtractive methods in addition to the base form of synthesis, but the term is usually used to describe the basic method of harmonic generation.)But it really wouldn't be appropriate to get into all that here, thats a topic for the synthesis article.--Brentt 23:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

After reading over that you make a valid point. I forget the Clavia Nord Lead had complex FM Synthesis on it to. I just mentioned it there, because I don't call them "virtual analog". It makes things extremely confusing. When I am listening to the piece I usually try to indentify the timbre. A lot of the sawtooth oscillator stick out the most to me, but after looking over that your correct. -wikilurker 14:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

DAWs, Reason and Fruity Loops
I chaned the last 2 sentences of the first paragraph from this:
 * These are usually controlled by host commercial sequencer applications such as Logic and Cubase. Completely software-based algorithms and studios are also increasingly popular in commercial sequencer applications and other self-contained modular applications e.g. Propellerheads Reason and Fruity Loops.

to this:
 * 'These are usually controlled by host commercial sequencers within Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) applications.

I removed the reference to Logic and Cubase because they both fall under the term DAW, along with all the other equally popular DAWs, which would be to big of a list to list specifically in the article.

Now some might be irate the reference to Reason and Fruity Loops was removed, this was simply because the original sentence was misleading in that it implied that Reason and Fruity Loops were all software based, whereas the DAWs aren't. Most people who use DAWs don't have a shred of hardware. (Even when I worked in a voice acting studio the half-a-million dollar mixing board was used for nothing more than controlling the level sliders in Digital Performer!) and are just as "software based" as most DAW setups (The MOTU and Pro-Tools hardware are mostly dedicated computers). They may deserve mention because they fall into a grey area regarding their status as a DAW, because in some ways they are indistiguishable, they are just simply less flexible with a more rigid work flow. That being said, Reason can be firmly considered a VSTi as much as Reaktor can (they both have the same sequencing ability, even if sequencing in Reaktor is a bit clunky). FL on the other hand is more like a DAW, in that it has VST support I think. If someone can think of a way to mention them without being innacurate or going into too many nuances, then feel free. As it was the mentin was misleading and therfore unsatisfactory. --Brentt 00:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Goa
Is psytrance really all that popular in Goa (its listed as one of the places it is popular)? Everyone I've talked to whos been there says that Goa parties are almost all foreigners, i.e. not Indian, and one friend who was born and raised in Bombay, but who discovered Goa parties, said that he was always one of very few native Indians at the parties--and its always been like that. If its only popular among tourists can you really say its popular there? --Brentt 00:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC

In recent Years Goa trance party's have included more and more Indians and this has in part lead to Goa's demise as a Party destination. "Goa is no longer known for its 3 day parties and its liberal view and tolerance on psychedelics. The energy in the parties has changed. There is no longer a feeling of a communal environment. Headphones have replaced 10k rigs for noise pollution reasons and to stop the party being ended abruptly." http://www.razzek.co.uk/psytrance.html. Their is a wide spread belief that the progressive trance party's of recent years have ended. With more Indian influence the music in Goa has moved away from the psychedelics that made it famous and more towards a commercial variant more acceptable to the Mumbai and Delhi elite.

Regional differences in termonology
It would be interesting if contributors to the “Goa v Psychedelic Trance”dicussion mentioned where they are from as it is obvious to me that there are variations in the terminology used by the various scenes.

I am from Cape Town in South Africa and here Psychedelic Trance is almost always referred to simply as “Trance". This was also the case during the "Goa Trance" era.  This is probably owing to the fact that Psychedelic Trance is mainstream and by far the most popular dance music genre.

During the mid-to not-so-late 90’s what is known today as Psychedelic Trance was referred to as Goa Trance. Gradually and at the time imperceptibly people started using the term “Psychedelic Trance”. So, to me, Goa Trance refers to older Trance whereas Psychedelic Trance refers to Trance since about the late 90’s.

For me it’s not so much the style of the music that defines whether or not it is Goa or Psychedelic Trance, but rather the time period it is from. I’m arguing that (in Cape Town at least) if Astral Projection’s People Can Fly was released today it would be called psychedelic trance even though it sounds like the something from the Goa Trance-period. If he latest Protoculture album was released in 1996 it would have been known as Goa Trance.

Psychedelic trance scene popularity
The fact that psychedelic trance is now very popular (in Brasil's case even more than house music) is not clearly stated in the history section so I added it to the psychedelic trance scene section. --Kalpha 10:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Added to Goa trance music. Psychomel  @  di(s)cussion  12:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is the "commercial success" section second from the top? Not only is it inaccurate (only the distributors could give you actual numbers, the ones cited are "common knowledge") but it is also irrelevant. Kill it or turn it into a piece on "audience".

Neurotrance
Thought I'd bring something up about this genre. That is if it is one. I came across a few people mentioning it. It sounds like it is mainly underground. They said something about it beginning in San Francisco. Anyway, thought I'd just bring that up for a lot of us to search. Jon Dillinger 10:27 am 9/29/06
 * Neurofunk? Psychomelodic 12:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This is total nonsense.

My understanding is that Neurotrance is very dark and (dare I say) more on the evil sounding side. I think [Geomagnetic.tv] (they are from San Fran)is one of or is the sole producers of this style of music. I was at a party in October in Asheville, NC where some of the music was so dark I was very sad and disappointed. It had samples of people screaming, being murdered and such...and was explained to me by one of the artists from that label that this was Neurotrance. Regardless, it's definitely not what I want to hear while on shrooms. It left a very bad taste in my mouth about the state of America's Psy/Goa trance community. --Om Namah Shivaya 3~ 20:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of neuro producers, around the world. Neuro can be best summed as a constant 16th note, monotone bassline overwhich play a variety of percussion and soundFX with few breakdowns, pauses, breaths, or variation in general. There are few to no leads, and anything resembling a lead is frequently atonal. When it gets boring, the producers usually stick in a sample of a woman screaming as that is much easier than programming a synthesizer to 'wail'. Not that there's anything wrong with Neuro, it's just best between 2 and 5am. Sorry you had a bad time in Asheville, we usually try to keep the darkest bits for the darkest of night. Fuzzikitten 18:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)fuzzikitten

What happened to the list category? And Kristian?
Can someone please clarify what the hell happened to the List of psychedelic trance artists category, which was a valuable resource and listed loads and loads of DJs and artists? It was excellent. Can someone please find out and restore it? Furthermore, many of those acts link to this category, which is now empty.

On a similar note, I added a page on Kristian which took me quite some time to write. It's gone: if you type in "Kristian" into Wikipedia it doesn't come up. It's even disappeared from my contributions. It was a professionally written article, but even so, it still should not have been removed. Is there any vandalism going on from someone who dislikes psytrance or something??? --Tris2000 20:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Section removed from article
In recent years, sales of psychedelic trance have been falling. The decline was : -2,8% in 2001, and -8,8% in 2002. A typical album usually sells around 2,000 copies, and selling more than 5,000 copies would be considered a success. There are only a handful of artists who sold more than 20,000 copies, including Hallucinogen, G.M.S., Infected Mushroom, Chakra, Transwave, Astrix, and Astral Projection. Hallucinogen's Twisted has had the most commercial success to date, selling around 85,000 copies.
 * Commercial success

The reasons for this decline in public interest include overproduction and lack of publicity. In fact, the market has not grown much, however the number of new labels and artists has increased greatly. Much of psychedelic trance is also channeled through illegal copying by sharing of music, particularly among students and streaming audio on the internet. Although this has opened up the market to newcomers, most of these fans do not have the ability to purchase music since it is not normally distributed in mainstream record stores (mostly internet shops).

It is worth noting that psytrance may not necessarily declining relative to underground dance music as a whole. The aforementioned trends do not apply exclusively to psytrance; the same commercial patterns are being noticed in many other forms of underground electronic music, such as drum and bass. Because ticket sales can continue to fare well despite falling record sales, a decline in the purchase of music does not necessarily imply the 'death' of a scene. This is compounded by the fact that many producers make a large proportion of their money through live performance, rather than relying solely on record sales. The reliance on live performances as the primary source of income is something also common in the band scene too, due to the record labels the bands are signed to often paying them very little.

The above is obviously drawn from some sort of authoritative source, however, as the source is not presented (and credited), and since the "update" given is five years old, I find it's inclusion in the article untenable.

On another point the article as it currently stands no longer can be considered a 'B' class article, and I have consequently downgraded it to 'Start' class for all projects. And, in my opinion, it is now closer to being a 'Stub' than to regaining it's 'B'-class status. __meco 17:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I suggest that all the psytrance related article are merged into one article. They are all mostly unsourced and some sub-genres are not that notable and would struggle to avoid deletion if they are merged into sections of this article, i think it would improve things. -- neon white user page talk 21:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)