Talk:Psychonautics/Archive 1

First remarks
You might want to refer to a conference paper by me entitled 'Psychonautics: a model and method for exploring the subjective effects of psychoactive drugs' (Russell Newcombe, 1999). It can be found on the Drugtext website.

Can we reference this? It sounds a little bogus to me. Mark Richards 21:08, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Googling finds a few references in this format - seems legit, if pretty marginal. It's also a band's name. - DavidWBrooks 00:39, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's a legitimate term, slightly slang, but well established. (Plus has over 125,000 google references). Also consider the Black Sabbath song, Supernaut. By reading the lyrics I'm fairly certain it's a play on psychonaut. --Thoric 22:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contradictions with the Entheogens Page
Paragraph 1 of this page defines a psychonaut as "a person who uses psychoactive entheogens as guides ... quite distinct from religious use...." But the page on Entheogens defines the term entheogens as "that which causes (a person) to be in God," i.e., clearly specifying the term as religious. I think that the real problem is a lack of NPOV on the part of the entheogens page and this page.
 * I agree with you that the articles could be clearer, but I don't think it is necessarily an NPOV issue (if it is this is not evidence of such, merely writing that could be improved). However, the definition in 'entheogen' you refer to, 'that which causes a person to be in god', refers to the literal meaning of the Greek syllables that make up the word. The article then goes on to state: In its strictest sense the term refers to a psychoactive substance (most often some plant matter) that occasions enlightening spiritual or mystical experience, within the parameters of a cult, in the original non-pejorative sense of cultus. In a broader sense, the word "entheogen" refers to artificial as well as natural substances that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional shamanic inebriants, even if it is used in a secular context. Yes, this obviously includes -- but is not limited -- to religious uses.


 * The distinction which is being made in the definition of psychonaut, I believe, although very unclearly, is that the term is not, or almost never used to refer to traditional religious use of entheogens. While a psychonaut may certainly seek or obtain spiritual and religious benefit from their substance use, the term is not used to refer to Amazonian shamans making traditional use of ayahuasca, or Native Americans using peyote in religious ceremonies. However, if you or I were to dose up in our bedrooms in the hopes of communing with God, the slang term psychonaut might very well apply. Does this make things clearer? If so I will attempt to improve the article as well along these lines. Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 18:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Of note, the definition of entheogen is incorrect. It doesn't mean to be in god, but the god within.   Entheogens are spiritual, not religious.  A psychonaut is a person who travels to uncharted realms of their mind (and entheogens certainly help with this), it could be spiritual, but it is more likely to be intellectual, or simply, "far out, man".  --Thoric 19:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Feb. 2006
I have copied the article to paste to my own talk page, and hope that you will join me there. Thanks. Prometheuspan 22:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 21:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC) And we are STILL arguing instead of producing something useful? I think maybe I need to go get some more wikipedians attention. This is a joke. This is patently rediculous. Hop down to the entire list. Answer each and every sub point with your thoughts. (Have I ever excluded a whole paragraph of yours? No, I answer everything, one way or another, so that we know we aren't missing any details. Your turn to make an honest effort.) Go do some real research on the topics I have presented. Quit butting heads with me over the term, and go look at the universe of information where i am pointing. Otherwise, the swine are getting too thick around here, and I'm gonna go make a big noise with management to see if it can get any better, and if it can't- leave. Prometheuspan 21:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm, to whom are you referring to, and to which paragraphs are you referring to? --Thoric 23:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC) I am refering to you. And the assorted materials that you have yet to make comment on, because you are so busy trying to convince me to shut up and go away. In particular, I am refering to everything in this document, below the line of "Prometheuspans Edits". We have managed to talk about wether or not we should even have this conversation, wether or not spirituality should be included, and wether or not my use of the term is accurate and fair given the terms history. You have managed to try to make me sound like a neophyte who doesn't know enough to be here, and you have managed to stall the conversation over whether or not we ought to bother. What you haven't done is actually adress the information presented. I have another argument for you, pro Spirituality. As a Psychologist, which class of human motivations is it that actually drives people to use Entheogens? Is it primarilly;
 * A the Environmental Need Class?
 * B the Physical Need Class?
 * C the Social Need Class?
 * D the Emotional Need Class?
 * E the Mental Need Class?
 * F the Spiritual Need Class?

What am I saying,? I'm saying yes, its better to for the most part keep spirituality out of the discussion, and inlcude mostly psychology schema. Why don't you go take a look at the schema that have been provided? 209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, i have commented on much of what is below and added a few things to the article. --Heah talk 04:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Lightningstrucktower 01:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC) prometheuspans iamathelibraryinsteadofthecomputerlab;stoned. sockpuppet. (one and only beta version, submitted of course, for community approval...lol)

And i dream and it comes like a wave and the stream trickles to take me away as the nymph on the ethereal flow off and away i go

and she falls like rain at first sweet and then comes the defening roar like a thousand trumpets blaring and a thousand zombies snores...

and then comes the bolt, that rips me apart as leviathan she grasps me between her teeth and swallows and i fall fall fall fall fall fall down the shamans tunnels and into the dream of hatching from leviathan shes EGG

Don't you you know PS KEY(Knot?) That key open open open open (cubed) opens and INFINITE labyrinth. And if you don't have sufficient MAPS you could get awefully awefully lost? LOST What is the COST of how ehere where why wen when of this zen that you missed for your bliss oh what was that she said about the force of attention?

It is the MASTERY of the I eye On the dance and singing scry fly that makes bothering with the KEY worth a go TRY or you better just kiss REALITY bye bye...

DIGESTED by the Leviathan SHE; in dreams singing angels protected HE And down falling and in calling arriving upon tiferets stage in yet another echolation of the egos CAGE... Don't you know that this labyrinthe is MEAN? Can't you hear all of the ghosts and the ancestors SCREAM?

Cuz i can't make it to the MISSIONS any more, EMPATHY level .2 is allready devasting; opening to ghosts? ouch.

Opening to the astral without a map? without .>>>>serious astral schema<<<<<? WHERE ARE YOU thinking you will end up? Because its just a wirlwhind collective knot Storm in a holomorhpic consciuousness metaform

Its just CHAOS and ENTROPY and you AND THE GRIM REAPER and its your LAST DANCE. One last chance to change your flow and direction of synergy and align to an inner vision of integrity or off you go, meal, after meal after meal after karma after karma after karma for the generations of descendants of LEVIATHAN SHE

What you resist is the collective creation of just that TOWER Which is only and just a subjective attempt at objective description of the tree. And truth is the lightning struck tower; is and always will be; one way or another... coming by entropy and chaos and random chance and karma;

That TOWER in WHAT form? Afraid of that truth hitting are we? The next tower up is a thousand orders of magnitude BETTER. Paradigm paragon paradox

Libraries closing; Leviathan SHE says, in the form of the librarian. bye.

Lightningstrucktower 01:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC) Prometheuspans one and only sockpuppet.

lol.

"This page is 51 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size. "

I think we should move the discussion of whether or not we should even have this discussion, or, split this discussion page in half.

Psychonautdiscuss2 Prometheuspan 20:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC) ah, deleted? Does that mean that we realize we don't need to go there? Cuz I was coming here this morning ready to open up a can of "NeoShamanism" of the "looks down its nose at psuedoPsychonauts" variety. Or does that mean the argument was too hard hitting, and all traces of it had to be removed? still no comments on the content. I had an epiphany, which was; many of these topics could be linked to, if we put in a page break and a "PsychoNaut POV", we could distribute the information all over the network, rather than loading this page with excessive excessive information. My assumption was at the start that people wouldn't like POV popping up here and there all over the place...Anyways...dah dah dah. I guess i won't bother generating more secrets of the universe right here just now. Prometheuspan 20:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I'm sad that nobodies moved on to >content< yet. Prometheuspan 01:36, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Missing details
There are a variety of details which i think would be fair to include here in some form or another. Heah did an Awesome job of cleaning up this wreck, and I am totally thankful. However, Some of the "stubs" that got deleted in that task are still very worthy, and I think, worth discussing, and probably, could stand a paragraph or so on them. I personally still think that the POV issues are complicated enough, (and that I am operating from enough of a bias) That its wiser to talk about it first and let the group edit later, than to jump in and go editing, creating possibly more stress for the group actually over the long run. Prometheuspan 04:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I will try to respond to some of the things you include below with my thoughts. Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 05:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you could outline by comparing/contrasting with the current article to tell us exactly what you think is missing, that would be helpful. it just seems that what you've placed below is just a really long list of stuff that reads like something off of [www.fusionanomaly.net fusion anomaly]- a site that i love dearly, but one that is very very different from the encyclopedic project at hand . . .  --Heah talk 21:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 22:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC) I think that right now it _is_mostly a list of apparently abstract and nearly unrelated topics. What I do think I have accomplished (and I have been thinking about how to frame this for everybody) is generating a non-denominational framework for generating a knowledge base around the topic of PsychoNaut. Now, again, I do think that a certain amount of upfront talk about my own Bias is in order here. What you actually have is a list of topics relating primarilly to modern psychology, which >>I<< Personally, have integrated into my PsychoNautic practice. From my perspective, I could just out and write a very long piece on how to go about everything, and how to obtain exotic trance states. In as much as I am very certain that my results are reproduceable, I think that the scientific veracity of my "claims" are more or less irrefutable. In as much as much of the material has yet to hit mainstream (and that much of it is actually being repressed by mainstream) paradigms, we do run into POV issues. Let me also add that clearly, I have actually generated a very fine middle ground between What I as a >>Shaman<< would have to say on the subject, and what I as a NPOV Psychologist would have to say on the subject. I'm allready riding a rather large self censorship horse, so to speak. The question I think we all ought to ask ourselves here, is wether our primary purpose is to provide _Useful_ information, or our Primary purpose is to provide _Nuetered_ information. In the assorted POV conversations, what one sees spoken is that Nuetral POV is inclusive of multiple POV. I agree with that assessment, and, more amusingly, I am probably qualified to write both the PsychoNauts argument and the Psychologists Refutation. (lol) If on the other hand, what is actually going on is censorship of non-dominant paradigm materials, then in the first place "PsychoNaut" and "Entheogens" were doomed. What I think results is a very precarious balancing act where we do our best to report nuetrally about two or three very different points of view. Qualifying terms, Such as "Some PsychoNauts think (Feel, Say, Believe)" and "Some Psychologists would disagree because of x,y,z" are the most important parts of that balancing act.

Lastly, let me say that if what any of you are genuinely interested in is PsychoNautics, then I am exactly the expert you couldn't have dreamed you'd be fortunate enough to get. If on the other hand, you are a bunch of drug users with a new happy self justification, I am exactly the worst case scenario pain in the ass. Prometheuspan 22:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Use of the term
Psychonaut is a modern term, used to describe one who uses Trance, and sometimes, more specifically, mind-altering substances more with a view to their ability to act as entheogens, than for their inebriating (or social) effect. In effect, they are used as a means to achieve states of mind in which different perceptions unhindered by everyday mental filters and processes, can arise.

As such, their effects, used with this intent, can be life altering, and are not considered by their proponents to be mere hallucinations. An alternate description is that while some aspects of the experience may be hallucinatory, the realizations caused by those hallucinations, and the mental, emotional and long term impact of the experience, is real, usually positive, and enduring.


 * I am uncomfortable with the use of the term 'trance technologies' in this article in general because of a few things: one, I feel it is a neologism which has not had the chance to widely penetrate the English language and the use of that kind of word (especially as its own entry) is frowned upon on Wikipedia. This leads to my second point, which is that as the term is not well known I feel it makes the article less accessible than simply saying 'one who uses altered states, often including mind altering substances' with a perhaps a comment in there about how they often borrow from the traditional practices of shamans.

Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Thanks, you make a convincing argument, now I agree with you.

Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW, I think the best change you have made to this article, overall, is introducing more of a spiritual side to it as I think the previous article focused too much on a more weakened use of the term as a synonym for something like stoner or recreational drug user. Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 05:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Well, yes and no. Almost all of the subjects which I am attempting to integrate here are from modern psychology. I am also an expert in comparative world religions, and I'd be happy to go there also, if that interests you. However, because of the astounding level of complexity allready generated just trying to integrate Modern Psychology, It might be wisest to leave Religious materials out of it, and keep the article non-denominational. Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * While I agree with the additions, I still uphold that the term psychonaut in no way implies spiritual use, nor implies strictly non-recreational use. It can be used as a generic term to describe an "acidhead" just as it can be used to describe a neo-shaman type who also examines non-spiritual insights.  I would say that the term best describes people who take a more intellectual view of psychedelics such as Aldous Huxley.  --Thoric 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC) I agree here with Thoric. Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * re:trance technologies- i don't think "trance" as a term should be eliminated; if "trance technologies" complicates things, and as it is a neologism, something along the lines of "one who uses trance techniques to reach altered states, often including mind altering substances" might suffice.
 * re:use of the term- i also agree with thoric here. being a shaman and being a psychonaut are not in any way entirely compatible terms, ie, they can't stand in for each other.  although a psychonaut may use shamanic techniques and one (as an individual) may even be a shaman, these things don't necessarily imply each other for the reasons thoric outlines above.  --Heah talk 21:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC) My take on this, as I stated, is that a "Shaman" is inherantly an Animistic, Pantheistic, or similar religious path, whereas "Psychonaut" is non-denominational. Shamanism is to Psychonaut what Christianity is to the New age movement; A convenient way to escape some aspects of a paradigm, grab pieces from other paradigms, and do what you want with your own mind. Prometheuspan 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you are confusing psychonaut with neoshaman. The term psychonaut was coined in reference to, and has always been used in reference to those who use psychoactive substances to explore their minds.

Prometheuspan 01:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC) Coined maybe yes, always used to refer to, no. There are two distinctly different branches on that, believe me, I know, i lived in several different adult pagan communities, and several communes, have attended seminar situations like the one commonly held in Ouray(?) Colorado, And have lived in communes actively pursuing the Entheogenic lifestyle. And this is what the communnity came up with. You can have Psychonaut refer exclusively to drug use, or, you can have psychonaut refer to Entheogenic use. The difference is wether or not you are using significant reality models, caution, knowledge, and wisdom, or whether you are just kidding yourself, like most "psychonauts" are. Either there is a real, and tangible knowledge base, to back up the claim of "psychoanut", or psychonaut is a farce and a BS headgame to cover drug use over with an intellectual shoe polish. Prometheuspan 01:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that this article should be overloaded with references to non-drug related techniques for the purpose of legitimizing the term, nor should we place too much emphasis on spiritual use. Prometheuspan 01:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC) Okay, I think Spiritual use is one potential aspect of Psychological self exploration. If we define Psychonaut as psychological self exploration, then by necessity, we should include reasonable means to make that a real exploration, not a leap, potentially, over a cliff. Should we exclude the Spiritual aspects? Probably, but only because it overcomplicates what is allready a long list of relative issues. I'd like to point out that perhapsto YOU, all of the extraneous details are pointless. But to a 16 year old reader of the term, a little bit of brain anatomy and psychology isn't just important, its crucial. Otherwise, what you are advocating is really the equivalent of putting a loaded gun in a toddlers hand. Dangerous, irresponsible, and generally tragic. Prometheuspan 01:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

If anything it will only dilute the term as something belonging to the new-age occult. Prometheuspan 01:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC) Again, I stress, most of the topics which i am bringing up come from modern psychology. If you must, object to those which don't, but please, think clearly about what you are doing, because we are actually here and now determining WHAT PsychoNaut is, from the point of view of informing a potentially utterly ignorant public.

As a side note, Entheogenic use DOES come out of "occult" and there isn't any way to escape that. Prometheuspan 01:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Please read this article psychonautics. --Thoric 22:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We are actually here and now determining what a psychonaut is, from the point of view of informing a potentially utterly ignorant public.
 * Exactly. This is why it should be clear and concise.  The point of this article is to describe what a psychonaut is, and point the reader in the right direction to find out more about specific aspects.

Prometheuspan 21:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC) agreed Prometheuspan 21:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The article shouldn't be akin to the "10 Do's and 100 Don'ts of Knife Safety" book, just as the firearms article only has a link to the gun safety article, and doesn't speak much on gun safety. Do note that there is already a responsible drug use article, Prometheuspan 21:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC) I have, and I linked to it to demonstrate my point in the off over in another subdomain lets argue about whether or not to actually have this conversation sub thread. I will state again, I'm not above distributing the information in the network, and that is fine by me. My problem with your presentation, and your argument, and everything that wikipedia has on the subject so far is that A LITTLE BIT OF KNOWLEDGE CAN BE A DANGEROUS THING. You are so vigourously against "Spirituality" that you are censoring the very real spiritual journey.


 * Hold on now. Who said I was against spirituality?  I am all for spirituality... I just don't think the psychonaut article needs a whole section on it when other articles cover that aspect, and when the term doesn't imply it.  --Thoric 23:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC) The Term DOES imply it, (or, minus it, its alternative, recreational use.) Pick one or the other. Again, I have always agreed with you in principle. (lets leave spirituality out of it as much as possible.) Unfortunately, the issue here is what >>I'm<< getting, is arrows en masse for every little detail. We are arguing fer petes sake over things we agree on. Can't we move on down the list? Brain Anatomy and Brainwaves are not Spiritual topics. They have peculiar, and nuanced relationships to Psychonaut, to the degree that that information doesn't belong over in "Brain Anatomy" and must thus stay HERE, or, someplace else designed for it. In either case, we need to link to a reasonable number of useful schema, and show at least what the link is. Apparently, you don't think that there is a link, or that the link is too week, for some of the schema. I'm not trying to "weigh down" an article, I am trying to lift it out of being laughably off from the Shamanic Perspective. 209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Without that aspect, and all of the information that loads it, your entire term is just an excuse for drug use.
 * Hey now. Psychedelics promote self exploration.  They are an invaluable tool when used correctly.  Sure you can use them recreationally at low doses, and while I don't advocate that, I think people should be free to do so if they please -- as long as they do it responsibly.  --Thoric 23:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC) The only way to do them responsibly isto have sufficient information about them, and the mind/body. The only way to do that is for people like me to provide information according to those criteria. 209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

What I am promoting is only a link to the information which is in fact essential, to turn your farce into a reality. We can dance as wannabe psyconaut, and accomplished shaman, all day long. The question is, can we get to the content? I'm getting sick of this. You should be to. I didn't come here to argue with you because you want to keep the article small. I came here to give you the information you need to make the argument legit. If you can't handle my level of expertise, why don't we just say so up front, and I'll just go start a book in wikibooks. This shouldn't be a struggle betweeen you and me, I have been fair, I have been forthright, I have been patient, I have made a winning argument, and i have done it all without making a big mess on your article more than once. If you must insist on knocking heads with somebody, maybe i should go seek other wikipedians with a bit more lucidity. Prometheuspan 21:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

and by all means, we could certainly use an article detailing the safe and responsible use of psychedelic drugs, and also one of proper use of shamanic technology. --Thoric 17:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 21:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC) okay, well, you are the Wikipedian, and I'm the Eccentric Genius. If you want to start opening new portals, or directing sub aspects of this conversation to new locations, by all means, I am willing to follow your lead. My starting premise is this; I am testing Wikipedia over this subject. If it passes, then I'll sign up to go look over every link that links from here. And then maybe even a third generation. And if I am really bored, maybe even a fourth. But unless we can actually bring THIS article up to speed, I'm not about to commit my time and energy. You see, I have been playing pearls and swine most of my adult life. Either you are ready to recieve here, or you aren't. Prometheuspan 21:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm uncertain as to the actual issue. I suspect it has to do with the information you wish to impart into this article (i.e. the information current within the talk page).

This is an overwhelming amount of information for a single article, and hence must be organized and distributed over other articles. I am myself but a newbie Wikipedian compared to others, and am only striving to uphold the ideals of the core encyclopedic structure -- that is to present useful information in an easy to read fashion. --Thoric 23:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC) okay then, what the article needs is its core set of information, and links to other places with good core information. All of Wikipedia needs drastic help. The Brainwave articles are little more than stubs. The Altered States of consciousness article is little more than a stub. Why? Because this kind of information is highly contentious, esoteric, and highly subjective. All I want to do is finish one thing at a time. If i hop to 5 other articles, before you and i get this resolved, i get the feeling that i could end up in an even worse state with this. Can we please finish what is started here? If all you do is go through the information i started providing, and making comments about where else it might fit, that would still be better than producing information which you seem to decide isn't even worth adressing. As far as I am concerned, the ball is in your (and wikipedias) court, until some of you actually get to the stuff below the next page break. 209.129.49.65 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This was written before your last comments but i got an edit conflict. Although i haven't really read them yet, i would like to point out that i have read through the stuff below, which is how the current article came about.

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) thanks, again, you did a great job. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * As thoric says, this is an overwhelming amount of information, and i have to say that much of it doesn't really seem relevant to the article. This isn't a how-to book or an exhaustive guide, but an encyclopedia.  for instance we don't even have recipes for various foods, as that isn't what wikipedia is here for.

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) The question is, what amount of information is neccessary to insure that the bases are covered. Right now, the article is obviously lacking, in my opinion. The fact that nuanced POV regarding assorted subjects like say for instance Brain Anatomy can't really fit very well over in the brain anatomy area complicates this immensely. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Secondly, you seem to have made some rash assumptions about our own areas of expertise and our feelings/opinions about some stuff, particularly spirituality and drug use. I'm not quite sure why you feel that you are an expert on this stuff and we are not,

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) My assumption at this point is that Thoric isn't, or i don't think it would be such a difficult thing to get through the material. I haven't said that about you, or anybody else, and I have tried to run a middle line between you and Thoric as far as the "Spirituality" issue goes. All I know with certainty is that I am an expert on the subject, and the materials so far on wikipedia don't reflect the depth that I would expect them to if you had a good expert around. As far as what the drugs do chemically, thats a different story. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

or why you feel that we use the term psychonaut to legitimize our recreational drug use. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) The answer to that is easy. Is a psychonaut one who uses drugs, or one who explores the psyche, potentially with drugs? Its a fine and seemingly small difference, but it sticks out like a lot of other small little things. Like the lack of a definition for "altered states" until i supplied one. There are two main movements associated with psychonaut. One is very vocal and very visible and very much like the very vocal and very visible Satanists who gave Witches a bad name for 20 years. The other is a community of people who avoid talking on forums and in the public because they know from watching that having depth understanding of psychonautics is enough to get you fired, harassed, vanished, etc. The rhetoric of these two groups is simply different, in mostly small ways. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've spent a lot of time exploring my mind, thoughts, habits, patterns. I've done a lot of research on this stuff, experiential and academic.  I tend to spend days fasting and following strict diets before taking hallucinogens.    I started a wikiproject on hallucinogens precisely because of my attitude towards them, how incredibly important i think they are, and the lack of information concerning them here on wikipedia.  I've lived in the amazon and can tell you straight up that psychonautics and shamanism are not the same thing, even when "psychonaut" is used to denote spirituality/etc, and really aren't even in the same vein of thing.

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Yeah, I know. They are very different things connected to each other by one main aspect. Psychonauts (may) use Entheogens to explore Alterend states of consciousness, and Entheogens come out of Shamanism. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) (not that they are entirely unrelated, either, but essentially shamans are doctors, and psychonauts are not at all. when psychonauts start taking on the illnesses of others and transmuting them, when psychonauts focus on healing and community service, then they can be shamans.  As it stands, they are very different arts.)
 * It isn't that we can't handle your level of expertise or that we want to keep the article small. It's that you have presented an overwhelming amount of information which is difficult to sort through, and again, much of it just isn't in line with what goes into an encyclopedia article, whether for verifiability reasons, pov reasons, or "wikipedia is not a cookbook" reasons.  All three of us, as well as kit, have some level of expertise in this area, and we aren't unfamiliar with any of the information you're presenting or opposed to it because we use the term "psychonaut" to legitimize our drug use; rather, as you say, the question is of content.  what goes in the article and what doesn't?

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) okay, then, i think the minimum i deserve here is for a bit by bit go through; what the issues are that people have, why they think it doesn't go, or, where they think it might fit. I agree, its a lot of information. I agree, it may not all fit. I shouldn't have to have this discussion above the line, because all of that should, in my opinion, get worked out per piece of information. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

what is necessary for understanding what a psychonaut is and what isn't? what information is verifiable in the eyes of wikipedia, which by necessity means it is detached from our own personal experiences?
 * You've got a lot to contribute, prometheus, but contributions have to be in line with wikipedia policies and guidelines; an article should be written as an article, not as a series of bullet points that don't have any direct relation to each other other than their association with psychonautics.
 * Again, it really isn't as if you are the expert we've been waiting for. Everyone here knows things; wikipedia contributers tend to be a fairly intelligent bunch, and if you'd looked at the work us in particular have done and previous contributions of ours you'd see that we aren't a bunch of stoners.

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) What you don't see i see missing is the problem. I'm not calling you a bunch of Stoners. (And by the way, I'm a stoner.) I think you have some good knowledge in terms of the standard information. What i don't think you have is good schema regarding the part of self exploration which I am refering to; the part which isn't about drugs, but about the psyche, how it works, how it operates, and the things one should know and integrate before doing something as heavy and serious as say, Datura. I'm sorry, but there is an enormous blank space here. I understand that some of that is created out of the NPOV issue. But that issue is gotten around elsewhere via the use of appropriate qualifiers. I think you are a batch of pretty smart folks actually. But this isn't the issue. The issue is, Psychonaut needs a knowledge base of psyche orientated materials, or it is a dangerous and irresponsible article. Exploring the psyche without a map... 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

That isn't to say you don't have your own insights and experiences that we don't have- and vice versa- so we are more than happy to have you contributing, and again you obviously have plenty to contribute. But you haven't seemed to really have looked at how wikipedia functions and how articles are written. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Okay, fair enough. Theres a lot to look at. I have spent several days wandering around wikipedia, trying to get a fix on it all. Especially the POV issue thing. No, I don't claim that i have it figured out yet either. We can chalk this up to my ignorance and inexpeience, and i can move on to some other project; Certainly its going to be a lot easier for me to accept your judgment at this point than thorics. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I also have to say that you haven't yet presented a "winning argument". presenting us with reasons why various things below should be included in the article would be a start.

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Where do you want to go first? Brain Anatomy needs to be here because the psychonaut is navigating brain regions, and trying to get better hemispheric communication. We could go say that in the brain anatomy article, but i think it would be a bit out of place. Again, i think its fair to ask that we disk each item, one at a time, on its own merit. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I understand your feelings that a "little bit of knowledge is dangerous", but again wikipedia just isn't the place for discussing knife safety, and i can't really see how what you have below provides extra information that ensures safety and is not covered in the current article. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) If this was as simple or straightforeward as knife safety, I think you would have a point. The thing about knife safety is, you can go virtually anywhere on the net and find a good bit of information on knife safety. What you can't find, at least not easilly, is good information on psychonautics other than information on specific entheogens. There is a glut of information about drugs, and an absence of information on psychonautics. Heres one thought for you; we could un-redirect psychonautics and turn it into the article some of this wants to be. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * So no hard feelings- I don't want to see you leave, but you really have to understand that we're not stonewalling you because we don't know what we're talking about or because we are a bunch of stoners. We, like you, just want to make this article the best article it can be, and adding 48 unrelated sections just isn't the way to do that.  what in particular do you feel is currently missing from the article?

209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Pertinent information regarding how to achieve and manage altered states of consciousness, specifically techniques advisably prequel to drug use. Example; (something i haven't gotten around to listing) Did you know or realize that you can use hypnosis and post hypnotic suggestions to return to states similar to drug induced ones? Or that this is how Shamans handle the stronger entheogens, such as Datura, and that the whole point of Datura use is to learn lessons which are then permanently etched in the psyche? The kind of information which again, is sufficiently esoteric that you probably don't know about it. And aren't likely to find it very easilly.

I picked this article to start at because it was very clear to me that the article was skewed to the POV of the ignorant type of Psychonaut. I knew that if i could get at least the start of a genuine look at Non-Entheogenic Psychonaut issues, that I would be doing Wikipedia and humanity an incredible service. I knew that I had core information which would reasonably change even the definition of the term. I knew I knew enough to back up all my claims. (for instance, I have annoyance with some of the rocket science around Wikipedia also, but i am not a rocket scientist,I don't have expert information on rocketry.)

I appreciate your "third point of view." What do you think is the best course of action? I am willing to "drop it" if that is what you honestly think I should do. I am also willing to provide high quality information, if that is what you want. I am lastly willing to grab this entire discussion, copy it to a wordfile, and start over fresh, if you think that would help. All I want here is for people who go looking for "Psychonaut" to find information that is useful at all of the pyramid of needs levels, not just the first two. 209.129.49.65 04:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) --- "Goals

* Systematically categorize all hallucinogen and hallucinogen related articles; * Create new msg boxes, infoboxes, and templates where needed, including a hallucinogen stub template; * Expand present articles, stubs, and add new ones where needed * Remove inconsistancies from articles and define terms for consistant use. * Include pictures of different psychedelics and distribution methods for different hallucinogens" -- great set of goals. Here are mine; each of the main rungs on the pyramid of needs. in theory without the use of Entheogens. by giving the information that transforms irresponsible use into Psychonautical use. Prometheuspan 04:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Provide the most pertinent information for psychonautics per
 * Help any information recipient to achieve psychonaut type goals,
 * Insure "Responsible Use" as more than a rhetoric or slogan bit


 * --Heah talk 02:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan's edits
i've slightly rearranged this just so the page is easier to read, just by making sub headings instead of headings. my thoughts on all of it will come a bit later. . . --Heah talk 21:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 22:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC) hmm, thanks. Prometheuspan 22:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Shamanic Perspective of Hallucination
The Shamanic Perspective of Hallucination is that there is no such thing as something which is "not real." Shamans choose to see Visions, Hallucinations, and so forth as real communication from other parts of the psyche, which are normally veiled from the conscious mind by brain hemisphere filters. (Without these filters, the internal dialogue process would overwhelm the conscious mind, as is possibly the case with Autism )

Shamans generate assorted cosmologies which include the Psychic realms, and thus from their perspective, a Hallucination is a real event that happens on a different level of reality.


 * This is in the article, more or less, in the "use of the term", although another sentence there might be appropriate. --Heah talk 03:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Brain Anatomy

 * Information on the importance and use of brain function/anatomy in relation to psychonautics is in the article; a section on how the brain functions doesn't go here, it goes in articles about the brain which get linked to. --Heah talk 03:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 22:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC) ah, i see. Thanks. So you are thinking I should go chat up the discussion areas on those brainwave stubs? Or do we create a new alternate set? Prometheuspan 22:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The most important Paradigm to the Serious PsychoNaut is Brain Anatomy. PsychoNautics is the attempt to generate a Users manual for the human Brain. Unlike its near cousin, psychology which is concerned with understanding other people, PsychoNauts are more concerned with understanding themselves, and the process of self exploration.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=Brain+Anatomy&btnG=Search

Prometheuspan 04:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Brain Anatomy is important because only by understanding the Anatomy of the brain can we create meaningful maps for optomization of its faculties and resources. Brain Anatomy is the first step in taking stock of what the Brain does, how it does it, how it relates to itself, and how, most importantly, how different areas of the Brain Communicate with each other.

(And here, we could list a few good exterior linksto Brain Mapping sites.)

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/72504515/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 (a book)

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/116/1/1

http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/full/21/9/1636

http://www.psc.edu/science/goddard.html

http://ric.uthscsa.edu/projects/manual_sview4/index.html

Allen Brain Atlas http://www.brain-map.org/welcome.do;jsessionid=2782E5001A2AF63F96E2E3B49D1F7BD0

http://www.ece.drexel.edu/ICVC/Technology/Brain/

http://www.brainexplorer.org/brain_atlas/Brainatlas_index.shtml

http://sumsdb.wustl.edu:8081/sums/index.jsp

Hemispheres of Brain
There are Several different areas of the Brain, Which are Known by Science to carry out specific functions. Science knows about this mostly due to ElectroencephalographyAnd experiments where Brain waves are monitored while a subject is given different kinds of problems to solve or subjected to different kinds of stimulus. ( or, under the effect of a psychoactive substance.)

The Main Areas of the Brain are;
 * 1. The Brain Stem

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stem http://www.med.harvard.edu/AANLIB/cases/caseM/case.html

The Brain Stem is the lowest area of the brain, and its functions are the hardest for the Ego mind to directly access in a trance State. Acessing the information of the Brain Stem (By entering a lucid Theta state and inducing information to be loaded into the imaginal stage.) may allow a person to experience dynamic levels of micro process and biological functioning; For instance, the control vectors and metaprocess governing the opening and closing of specific valves in the vascular system, or, the metaprocess governing gastrointestinal chemistry.

Other capacities include higher level self induction techniques, (Where, for example, a post hypnotic cue is used to return to a Theta Trance state where access to the Brain stem is being mitigated by loading into and out of the imaginal stage, and thus, very direct control over specific state functions is obtained.)

The Reptilian Brain is the part of us that is responsible for the more basic instincts, such as fight or flight, and stalking. "Psychotics" and "Sociopaths" may be simply operating from the Reptilian Brain instead of the ForeBrain like the rest of us. The Reptilian Brain also encodes memory of need, motivation, and gratification cycles, and so contributes immensely to subliminal processes including the formation of need meeting tactics. The Reptilain Brain is very involved in motor coordination, and it should be noted that with each evolutionary stage of the Brain, subjective experience of Time slows, such that the Reptilain Brain is noticing time at several hundred "instants" per second, Whereas the Mammalian Brain is noticing Time at only 2 or 3 Dozen "Instants" per second, and the Forebrain is noticing time at between 16 and 20 instants per second. Applications for this in Trance Technologies include drastically improving reflex time and speed, and the phenomenon described by many crisis survivors as "Time Dilation" is the direct result of this.
 * 2. The Reptilian Brain Cerebellum

Acessing the Reptilian mind from the Theta or Delta Trance State; perceptions and apparatus, including biomagnetic perception.
 * May enable a person to read the contents of the Instinctual self, (Which is useful in order to gain a better capacity for good tactics at meeting ones actual needs, and learning the differences between needs and wants or vices.)
 * May allow a person to become aware of the internal bodies sensory


 * 3. The limbic system

http://www.healing-arts.org/n-r-limbic.htm http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/limbicsystem.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

Function: Controls Emotions ,Emotional Responses ,Hormonal Secretions ,Mood Motivation ,Pain and Pleasure Sensations Acessing the Limbic system via Alpha or Theta Trance States may enable the person to understand obscured or sublimated emotional motivations and associations, memories, and personal cues. Many serious problems could in theory be resolved by sorting the shadow issues that are stored here.

The Mammalian Brain
 * 4. The Mammalian Brain extrastriate cortex


 * 5. The Neo-Cortex Neopallium Frontal lobe

Control Vision, Color recognition, symbol recognition, and visual internal dialogue. Alpha TRance States are useful for Lucid Visualization equal to a computer Simulation, Lucid Dreaming, Intentional "Halucination", and in facilitating starting communications with the Delta and Theta Levels.
 * 6. The Occipital Lobes


 * 7. The Left Hemisphere Lobes


 * 8. The Right Hemisphere Lobes

http://coe.sdsu.edu/eet/articles/dominance/index.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1892/ http://www.web-us.com/brain/LRBrain.html


 * 9. The Parietal lobehttp://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blparietallobe.htm

Brodmann_area http://spot.colorado.edu/~dubin/talks/brodmann/brodmann.html http://neuro.psyc.memphis.edu/NeuroPsyc/np-ugp-i-cortex3.htm

Prometheuspan 04:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Process Typing Functions
The Brain deals with different kinds of tasks by devoting small sections of itself to deal with those types of tasks.

There are thus different types of internal dialogue operating in different places in he mind. Verbal Linguistic Information is confined mostly to the Neo-Cortex and a smaller region called Wernickes area. Mathematical and Logical Types of operations seem to be carried out predominantly in the left or right hemisphere, depending on whether the person is left or right "handed". Movement is mostly handled by the Reptilian Brain and the Brain Stem. (etc)

In each of these cases, a different area of the brain is operating via a different type of internal dialogue. This contributes to the isolation of the hemispheres from each other, however, there are translators from brain area to brain area.

Halucinogenic Entheogens effect the brain in many different ways, but one thing that they have in common is that they overwhelm the brains own standard self inhibition, and thus increase communications between brain regions.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wernickes+area&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Brain+Hemispheres&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Reptilian+Mammalian+Neo-Cortex&btnG=Search

Brainwaves
By using an Electroencephalograph, Scientists can measure the Electrical outputs of the Brain. There are four main different kinds of waves that they have found, and each corresponds roughly to a different state of consciousness.
 * The article maybe could use a bit more on this, but i'm not convinced. again, this isn't an article on brain function; to say (as it does) that different brain wave states engender different modes of experience and that psychonauts actively modify those brainwaves in their work should suffice. --Heah talk 03:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * a Beta wave Brain Waves Brain Waves

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Brain+waves+Beta&spell=1

Beta States of consciousness are sustained by verbal linguistic internal dialogues. Beta States of Consciousness evolved first as the state to focus the mind on the external world, and then as the state which we use for normative social fucntioning. For this reason, in order to have groups in altered states of consciousness, it may be neccesary to create new forms of social order or social syntax, per the type of state. Beta States of consciousness are the only waking state that most of the population has ever experienced. For this reason, Beta Condition might be considered a psychological cage, (And this whole conversation might be thought of symbolically as morpheuses apeal to Neo.)


 * b Alpha wave Alpha Brain waves

Alpha states of consciousness are sustained by imagerial and hieroglyphic forms of internal dialogue. Alpha states of consciousness evolved firstly as the means by which the mind would contemplate itself, also called Metacognition. Later, Alpha states evolved to include facilities such as lucid visualization. Alpha states are in some senses the clutch of the states of consciousness. Except for very unusual circumstances, one goes through an Alpha state to get to a Delta state, and through an alpha state and possibly a Delta state to get to a Theta State.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Brain+waves+Alpha&btnG=Search


 * c Delta wave Delta Brain waves

Delta States of consciousness are sustained by a silencing of the Internal Dialogue of both the Neocortical areas (Beta States) And Mammalian Areas (Alpha States.) Delta states of consciousness evolved firstly as the brains time to work on its own physiology, healing, and so forth. Delta states eventually became linked to Instinct, animalistic impusles, and the lesser control functions over state of consciousness itself. Delta States in mammals are specifically the rest or sleep states in which almost nothing is happening in the brain other than necessary upkeep.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Brain+waves+Delta&btnG=Search


 * d Theta wave Theta Brain waves

Theta States of consciousness are sustained by Musical forms of internal dialogue, or, communicative interfacing between the Neocortex and the Occipital lobes facilitated by the imaginal stage. This means that in order to talk to the Neo-Cortex, the Rest of the brain has to reverse the usual direction of flow of information, and generates a "Vision" or "Waking dream" for the conscious mind. Theta States of consciousness are important because they offer the science explanation for many different "Spiritual" Phenomenon. For instance, in a Theta State of consciousness, it is possible for the senses of the lower brain regions to load their information to the conscious mind. There are two seperate sets of senses in the human brain system. One set of senses gathers information about our external environment, and reports that information after processing it to the Conscious mind. The other set of senses gathers information about the functioning of the physical body, and reports that information after processing it to the either the Limbic system, or the Reptilain mind. Amongst those senses is the sense of the bodies own biomagnetic field. (There are a set of nerve fibres in the stomach which are specifically designed to sense biomagnetic energy.) That sense perceptivity can be turned outwards in certain circumstances, so that the Reptilain mind could become aware, via the magnetic field, of the physical environment. This is important, because it is the Science explanation for assorted "Religious" and "Spiritual" Paradigms, such as Eastern and Chinese Subtle Anatomy Psuedoscience.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Brain+waves+Theta&btnG=Search

The Tree of Life
Is A Qaballah or Esoteric Judaism Reality model which describes essentially a bell curve, and potentials for phase alignment. The Tree can be used as a map to place over the entire body, as a map to place over the Torso, or as a map of states of consciousness assuming state definitions for the Neo-Cortex.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Tree+of+Life+Qaballah&btnG=Search =

The Tree of life is NOT a modern Psychology Schema, it comes from Esoteric Judaism. However, it is so incredibly useful that it is hard to forego mentioning it. The most useful application of the Tree comes as one considers that the Brainwave States of consciousness are the macrofield of states of consciousness, there are finer and finer differences between exotic States. (It might also be noted that at any given moment, the brain has all four types of brainwaves, the question is only which set is dominant.) Malkut represents Beta States of consciousness, the mind engadged in the world of the senses. Yesod Represents Beta States verging off into light alpha states, the states of reverie before actual transition into sleep. Tiferet represents the actual realms of dreams and the sea of swirling collective unconscious symbols and symbol/meme locations. Da'at is the boundary point of Delta States, and Keter is of course, Theta Condition. This is the middle pillar or the tree, the two side pillars give us intermediate states between the main states of consciousness. Netzach and Hod, for instance, represent Beta-esque Alpha conditions and Theta-esque alpha conditions.Geburah and Chesed represent Alpha-esqe Delta Conditions and Theta-esque Delta Conditions. Chokmah and binah represent Alpha-esque Theta conditions and Delta-esque Theta Conditions. The assorted paths represent state transitions.

http://www.libralion.com/tree1.htm http://www.spirit-alembic.com/kaballah.html

Totemic Mythic ArchitectureT.M.A.

 * Again, a bit more can probably go in about psychonautic perspectives on hallucination. I'll work on that later or tomorrow.  --Heah talk 03:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

PsychoNauts attempt to understand Hallucinations as communication from the psyche. To do this requires an elevated understanding of subliminal symbolism, particularly the Imagerial/Dreamspeak code of the Mammalian Brain and Occipital Lobes.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Totemism&btnG=Search

Prometheuspan 23:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC) This is particularly important in conjunction with dream journaling, lucid dreaming, and eventually, lucid visualization. If you are going to get the occipital lobes to have a lucid conversation with the Neo-Cortex, the Neo-Cortex is going to have to learn to speak the language of the Occiptial Lobes.

There are two main ideas out there about Tarot. One idea states that Tarot was invented in Italy circa 1300. The people supporting this theory are very adamant, but the theory doesn't hold water with Shamans for a vareiety of reasons. Tarot is a mythological Alphabet, whose very structure mimics the structure of the experiential sorting patterns of the Mammalian mind. In this sense, Tarot not only probably predates the 1300s, it probably predates human Civilization as such, including verbal communication. (I could also go on and on about how the Roman Catholic Agenda tried to kill off all the shamans, and of course their tools and information, for instance, Tarot, and that the first opinion is really a case of the victors rewriting history, but since we aren't tackling Tarot yet, I'll leave it alone....lol.)

Tarot Represents 40 state of matter (element) variations, or, by use of polarities, the basic possibilities for "set and setting." (minor arcana.) The Major Arcana represents the basic developmental cycle; ie, the "Fool" is approximately equal to an "Infant." The "Face Cards" are again an "Element" derived exploration of the main possible types of personalities.

I should point out that I could generate a treatment of the Mythomorphic aspects of Tarot which nobody save an expert would realize was Tarot based. I'm not sure wether that would be a plus or minus for POV politics.

Tarot is just >one< example of a mytho morphic architecture. Prometheuspan 23:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Dream Journals
A very important tool for the Psychonaut, A dream Journal acts as the starting point for the PsychoNaut to create a personal encyclopedia of their own symbolic internal dialogue.

Prometheuspan 23:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC) At first, there is almost no way for a person to gain Alpha access of any depth. The order of operations here is Dream Journaling, Lucid Visualization, Lucid Dreaming, Lucid Hallucination, because those are the steps one has to take to get from a to z.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Dream+Journal&btnG=Search

Lucid Dreaming
Some might say that Entheogens are EASY, If you want something HARD Try Lucid Dreaming. The Results are the same, but one has a very different cost.

Prometheuspan 23:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC) I agree with Heahs assessment that this is not a thing to say in an article. It is adressed actually to you guys, rather than the client users. Lucid Dreaming, despite what the article says, is really a pretty much accepted field of inquiry for Modern Psychology, and a completely real phenomenon. Lucid Dreaming may be very difficult or next to impossible prior to extensive dream journaling, this is something that is rarely covered in Lucid Dreaming treatments. I believe in working from what is currently feasable for an individual, through to the next stage, in baby steps. Prometheuspan 23:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

To a Psychonaut, Lucid Dreaming is a prequel to Psycho actives, setting a stage for them to learn self/ trip control. A person who is in control of their dreams can similarly learn to control their Hallucinations.

Prometheuspan 23:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Okay, I'll go for that. I might take out an option to spruce up the lucid dreaming page.
 * I think the article has about as much as it should have about dreaming. And, by the way, I've had plenty of lucid dreams- for a while, at least a couple a week- but at some point i got a girlfriend, and my mind was on different things as a lay in bed before sleeping.  i guess its been a good six months since i've had one, and it's definitely something i have to start working on again, as i'm again sans girlfriend . . .  --Heah talk 03:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The thing that is missing is linking Lucid Dreaming and the other techniques in their order. It isn't a big deal how much content we have here if content goes otherplaces, obviously. The question is putting this detial into the macro map; fitting material in with the brevity you are using so well. Again, there is a process here which primarilly involves increasing the lucidity of communication between the occipital and frontal lobes. Entheogens help us to do this because they increase or change brain activity and thus get past the normal hemisphere noise filters. Symbology, Lucid Visualization, Lucid Dreaming, and Lucid Halucination exist in the same sort of order as math, algebra, calculus, and statistics. Each is a skill step that enables exploration at the next level.

Sleep Deprivation
Sleep Deprivation teaches a Psychonaut control over their own State of consciousness. When we sleep, we go through the four brainwave patterns. Delta condition is deep rest, and Theta Condition is Physiological upkeep, and healing. Most people never experience a waking condition other than a Beta state. This is unfortunate, because Alpha, Delta, And Theta States are difficult to be in while still awake, but if you can manage it, you can use the mind in remarkable ways most people can't.

Prometheuspan 23:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Sleep Deprivation can be a very difficult path, but it is the surest path to a waking Alpha condition. As one becomes more and more sleep deprived, one drifts while awake into Alpha States. This happens at about the third day, and makes staying awake all that much more difficult. About the fourth or fifth day, microsleeps become common, and this means that while awake, the person is actually jumping off into Theta condition momentarilly. By allowing and paying attention to this as it happens, the PsychoNaut can learn from the inside what the State transitions themselves consist of, and this in turn can enable them to induce state transitions via an act of will. By the 5th or 6th day, a typical sleep deprived person will begin to experience waking Theta states, in the form of Hallucinations. (Theta state, in one definition, is simply that moment at which the ego boundary dissolves and the subliminal mind loads its information into the conscious mind via the imaginal stage.)

I think that its also important to point out that while most people have never experienced waking alpha, delta, or theta consitions, everybody experiences all four states every night while asleep. Denying that natural cycle forces the mind to compensate by pulling the conscious mind off into those altered states of consciousness.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Shamanism+Sleep+Deprivation&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+Sleep+Deprivation&btnG=Search

Sensory Deprivation
A very important Tool, especially for use with low Power Entheogens. For some people, Total Darkness in a cave is more than enough to Alter their state of consciousness. Alpha condition is to some degree a physiological response to darkness.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+Sensory+Deprivation+Chamber&btnG=Search

Trance Technologies; Generally, Any system or paradigm which helps people to attain altered states of consciousness, and, Specifically, the unusual abilities or capacities people exhibit once they have learned how to enter altered states of consciousness. (Speed Reading, Hyper Focus, Sport Focus or "Flow", Meditation, personal therapy, lucid visualization, mental simulation, epiphany, enlightenment, and so forth.)

Come from any Religion, Any Culture, Many different Sciences, and Multiple perspectives. However, in the modern era, most people can't escape the waking Beta condition except by sleep. Many facets of the dominant paradigm depend upon keeping the general population stupid and caged in a Beta state. Republican Political Science and Sociology, for example, are so nonsensical that its obvious to the educated mind that first they think of a way to make money, and then they generate a justification for it. Modern versions of pop Christianity set up the Church as a Spiritual intermediary. Trance Technologies allow direct personal acess to a real spirituality without intermediaries. For these reasons and others, the dominant paradigms worst potential enemy is a functional Psychonautics. Herd Mentality Groupthink Propaganda Politics Religion

Instinct, Memory, Symbol
Three areas of the brain have an interesting relationship with each other. The Reptilian Brain stores instinct, which is very similar to Maslows' Hierarchy of Needs The instinct drives us to act, which creates Memories in different regions of the Brain, but mostly in the Mammalian Brain. Symbols then form a Top Bar over that up/down line, forming a figure T. The Neo-Cortex processes most verbal Linguistic information, but the occipital Lobes process images. These aspects of self end up relating within the Psyche, and PsychoNautics primary concern is to increase the efficiency of that internal dialogue.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+sensory++Deprivation&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+Instinct+Reptilian+brain&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+Memory+long+term+short+term&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+Symbol+occipital+lobes&btnG=Search

motion, communication, fore thinker, planner
Motion is primarily handled by the Brain Stem and the Reptilian Brain, Communication is handled by the Neo-Cortex and the Mammalian Brain, thinking ahead is handled in several places, but mostly in the neo-cortical region and in the Temporal Lobes this again creates a set of relationships between areas of the brain.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+motion+motor+control+brain+area&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+communication+social+brain+linguistics&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Psychonaut+fore+thinker+planner+NeoCortex&spell=1

Egotism

 * This and the following two subsections are covered in the article. --Heah talk 03:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

From the PsychoNauts perspective, the greatest sin of Egotism is that over identification with the Ego mind eclipses other regions of the brain.

Ethnocentrism
is the field function of Egotism; The Egoic principle projected into ones group, culture, or society. Ethnocentrism is the logical fallacy, and rationale, behind Fascism and Totalitarianism PsychoNauts are particularly interested in this because the Schema we have from any one paradigm are too weak standing alone to make PsychoNautics possible. It is only by combining many different points of view, and integrating many different perspectives that one can become a successful PsychoNaut.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+egotism+shadow+psychology&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+Ethnocentrism+shadow+psychology&btnG=Search

Pack Psychology
Is important to PsychoNautics because Groupthink has a knee-jerk reaction against Eclectic thinking, And PsychoNauts are thus forced in many situations to defend themselves from attack.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Psychonaut+pack+psychology+wolves+apes+sociology&btnG=Search

Cogency
Is important not only for defending what we do as PsychoNauts, but for creating a lucid handling of ones own personal paradigms. Think of it this way; You get what you put into the software you probably didn't realize you wrote for your brain.

Ethics
PsychoNautics is very concerned with a variety of Ethical issues, because the way that the Psyche ends up working, It is difficult or impossible to obtain waking Trance States until the issues of the Shadow are resolved. In this sense, PsychoNauts build the ultimate Ethical system for themselves, and it might even be said that the defining characteristic of a Psychonaut is instead that they are solving the Shadow of the Collective unconscious internally.

Lucid Visualization
AT high levels of Alpha State Performance, The mind is capable of generating better movies than Hollywood ever will, (At a fraction of the cost.) Simulation modeling and assorted Engineering feats become possible as a person learns to use the "Dreaming" Facility while awake, and with the Neo-Cortex in control, instead of the Reptilian Brain or Limbic System.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=+visualization+Lucid+psychonaut&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=+simulation+visualization&btnG=Search

Alpha Inductive Meta-process
Hypnosis Self Hypnosis Delta Inductive Meta-process
 * 1. Stilling the Internal Dialogue
 * 2. Grounding and Centering
 * 3. Resolving the Mammalian Shadow
 * 4. Resolving the Reptilian Shadow

Theta Inductive Meta-process
of transmission of dream content from the Alpha mind to the Neo-Cortex. Because in essence, the Science that supports Shamanism understands that there is no "Magic", There are simply other resources of the Human animal that are not normally accessed by the Neo-Cortex.
 * 1. Theta States are sustained by Musical Internal Dialogue
 * 2. Theta States are normally encountered in sleep at them moment
 * 3. Theta level mind is the "Shamanic" Or "Psychonautic" Goal,
 * 4. Including (most usefully) perception of magnetic fields within a Five foot radius.

The Sleep/Waking Control Vector
as a Sleeping or waking State. Normally we don't experience anything other than Waking Beta States and Sleeping other States, but this is Due to three primary factors.
 * Any one of the Four Main States of Consciousness can be experienced
 * 1. Hemispheric filtering to prevent cognitive meltdown
 * 2. Social Conditioning
 * 3. Fallacious Belief Systems

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=somnambulism&btnG=Search

Psychology of PsychoNautics
What would make a person decide to explore their own mind?

What is the interest? What would drive a person to go to such lengths?

Shadow Psychology
PsychoNautics is concerned with Shadow Psychology because it is difficult if not impossible to obtain waking Trance States if the standard conflicts between areas of the mind have not been resolved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)

shadow_(psychology)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=Shadow+psychology&btnG=Search

Shadows mirror
Sometimes called a Scrying Mirror. Written and read reports of assorted Shamanic experiences were slightly misinterpreted. In order to induce an Alpha State as an accomplished Psychonaut, one looks backward with the force of attention at the Filter Cloaking mechanism itself.

Karma
From the Shamanic Perspective, One of several forces of Nature, which tends to work to apparently organize what would otherwise have been Chaos.

Neuromuscular Electricity
Neuro Muscular Electricity

and purposes and via an assortment of chemical processes.
 * 1. The Body generates its own Electricity for a variety of reasons
 * 2. Electricity is used as one part of the Electrochemical Communication system of nerves and Neurons.
 * 3. The Body also uses electricity as the driving force behind muscular flexing Muscles

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=+NeuroMuscular+Electricity&btnG=Search

Electrolysis Photography
A form of imaging, not technically a real photograph, in which a target is placed on a magnetically active plate, and Magnetic field activity is transformed into an image. This is important to PsychoNauts because it proves the PsychoNauts Hypothesis that there is a "Subtle Energy".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=Electrolysis+Photography&spell=1

Bio-magnetics
The Field of Science which studies the magnetic Fields that are created by Organic Creatures.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=Biomagnetics&spell=1

The Sensory Apparatus of the Reptilian Brain...
The minds force of attention is split into two primary directions by the Brain; Neural net, as it senses and operates by sensing itself.
 * 1. Outward, into the physical senses of sight, sound, taste, and touch,
 * 2. Inward, into the sense perceptions of the much more complicated

Glossolia
A form of Theta Trance Induction, used by Y'shua Ben Yeoseph (AKA Jesus Christ) Involving the use of musical tones and rapidly evolving harmonics and melodies, and in most cases, nonsensical phonetics, to overpower the verbal linguistic mind, and communicate with and thus awaken the Musical Lobe and thus Theta Access.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=Glossolia&btnG=Search

Subtle Anatomy
Ayurveda Chinese Medicine Chakras Meridians Strange Flows Aura

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=strange+flows+subtle+anatomy&btnG=Search

The Psyches Labyrinth
From the perspective of the PsychoNaut, Civilization is trapped in the Tarot Card of the Tower and lost inside of holding on to its paradigms as if they were substantial.

Psyche Labyrinth

Metaphysics

 * This is in there; a lot of stuff between this and my last post above is covered to the extent that it should be as well. (again, particularly the brain function stuff.)  --Heah talk 03:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

PsychoNauts are interested in Meta-Physics because it is another Paradigm that adds Schema relative to Obtaining Altered States of Consciousness.

Quantum Mechanics
PsychoNauts are interested in Quantum Mechanics because it is another Paradigm that adds Schema relative to Obtaining Altered States of Consciousness.

Ritual; Its useful functions

 * This and the next two things are covered as well. --Heah talk 03:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

(Generating social feedback loops)
 * 1. Grounding and Centering
 * 2. Cleansing and Purifying
 * 3. Setting Focus, Will, and Intention
 * 4. Exclusion of Negative thought forms
 * 5. The creation or Representational MicroCosm/MacroCosm Reflectivity
 * 6. The Creation of External Stage for Psychic Actions
 * 7. Syntax and codification for Induction Meta-process
 * 8. Communicating appropriate behavior to others.

Pack Psychology
In wolves, there are three main observed pack roles. They are;
 * 1. Alpha; The Leader, The Attacker, The direct pursuer.
 * 2. The Follower, The Henchmen, the Side pursuer,
 * 3. The outcast, the Hidden Wolf, Cuts off Escape Route

This behavior manifests in Humans in a more evolved way, and is the primary issue of the Reptilian Shadow.

Pack (canine)

Herd behavior

Herd Psychology
The practice of keeping people from having PsychoNautics knowledge so that they can be easily manipulated, Controlled, and Persuaded or Coerced.

Geek Psychology
In humans, The closest Equivalent to the Omega in a Pack structure. Geek Also, the only sane role to play, if you are going to get anything done intellectually.

Psychonaut? Enter the Matrix
Enter the Matrix

PsychoNautics is a very Point of View charged field because it combines all of the most sensitive aspects of both Religion and Politics, and (in some people’s opinions) has better answers to life’s assorted questions than either or both. PsychoNautics is considered by some to be a Cult in competition with Religion. While this is true in some senses, the reverse is true in that any member of any Paradigm group can be A PsychoNaut; the term is actually inherently non-denominational. PsychoNautics is also considered by some to be Left Leftist Liberal And while this may be true of Some PsychoNauts, it is not True Of PsychoNauts or PsychoNautics, Because PsychoNautics is actually outside of the Left-Right False Dilemma / False Duality.

PsychoNautics actually delivers what most Paradigms only promise; Real self help, evolutionary process, and personal Therapy. For this reason, PsychoNautics is a field which many in the establishment would like to Silence.

Sociology
Sociology is the study of Human Behavior on the larger Social Scale. PsychoNauts are interested in Sociology mostly because in order to make sense of the Psyche, one has to first make sense of ones biases, and assorted social and cultural influences.

Ecological Ergonomics
Entheogenic Chemistry

Entheogenic Metaphysics
The Shamanic View of Reality holds that the plants are doorways into our own internal reality. Entheogens offer a shortcut to altered states of consciousness, particularly the waking Theta condition which is extremely difficult to attain, and which can't be attained by Hypnotic means alone.

According to many Shamanic Societies, the Plants contain "Allies", or Spiritual agencies, which can act as guides on other levels of reality.

Most Shamans Do not believe in the concept of "Hallucination" in the traditional western sense. They believe that all sensory percpetions are real, but some sensory percpetions are of different levels of reality than the one we are in now.

The levels of reality Schema or concept is a very common one, but different cultures define those other levels of reality in different ways. Esoteric Judaism, for instance, used the Tree of life also to define levels of reality numbering at least 10, with the physical reality of western science being only one of those. Many Shamanic Societies have only one other level of reality that they refer to in one way or another as "The Spirit World." This illustrates the difference between some very complicated cosmologies, and some very simple ones, which exist along a spectrum of sorts in the study of World Shamanic Paradigms.

Entheogenic Protocols
Prometheuspan 00:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Shamans use Rituals and Entheogenic Protocols to maximize the experience that they get from Entheogens, and, to prevent problems and pre-empt hazards, such as addiction, overdose, or, fatality.

Some PsychoNauts may use ritual as one of their tools. Those Rituals and Practices may be designed as Near Equivalents to the Shamanic ones. One of the defining differences between Shamanic use and PsychoNautical use is that many PsychoNauts do not use any type of Ritual. However, it is highly advisable to use the Rituals and Protocols, because they exist for good reasons.


 * Marijuana
 * Mushrooms
 * Datura

(etcetera) Prometheuspan 00:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

"Opponents of the use of these substances tend to ignore their religious and spiritual use, and consider such claims as unsubstantiated fabrication, or mere justification of an inebriated and potentially dangerous state, and/or substance abuse." Prometheuspan 00:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Yes, and we wouldn't want them to be able to generate a valid case, so we ought to include enough non-Entheogenic Materials so that the conversation is framed as a legit, non-denominational self exploration path, rather than a lame excuse to use drugs. Prometheuspan 00:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

PsychoNautica
The frequency of use and type of use is highly individual. Some PsychoNauts are also neoshamans. Eventually, the individual often gains a sense or feeling of control over the entheogen they are taking.

Because their motive is primarily for personal growth by means of wider scope of mental perception, rather than social and leisure use, psychonauts usually resist over-use and respect the substances they take. Many psychoactive substances used as entheogens are not physically addictive (but may be psychologically addictive if over-used), and unlike crack or other drugs, there is not normally any spiral of dependency and/or harm involved. Personal reports on websites suggest psychonauts might typically use such substances between once every few weeks, to once or twice a year.

NPOV re: legitimacy & efficacy of psychonautic practice
This was added to the introduction tonight: "It should be noted that this is considered a dangerous practice, and is in no way recommended, nor is it anything resembling a proven concept for an increase in brain function. It is in many ways flawed and violates the concept of observation, as somebody who is under the effect of a neural disrupting substance is impaired in their perception of what is occuring both in their minds and bodies." I figured that something of this nature ought to be discussed before it actually goes into the article, so I took it out to repost here for discussion. What are your thoughts? The Chief 09:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The following assertions from above are all the opposite of the NPOV way of writing: "this is considered a dangerous practice", "is in no way recommended", "nor is it anything resembling a proven concept for an increase in brain function", "It is in many ways flawed and violates the concept of observation", "somebody who is under the effect of a neural disrupting substance is impaired in their perception of what is occuring both in their minds and bodies." Those views are delegitimating, one-sided, oversimplistic, and read like propagandistic writing serving to prop up the status quo Establishment-endorsed received view.  There is plenty of literature to mount a full attack against those asserted views and statements.  The pro-drug or nuanced and qualified counter-arguments, or opposing view, which is a not uncommon view throughout the literature, must be mentioned, to balance out and form a NPOV. MichaelSHoffman (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The original assertions were also "the opposite of the NPOV way of writing." Making undocumented and unreferenced assertions can get the material deleted. This article uses no references and can also be deleted. -- Fyslee / talk 14:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)