Talk:Puankhequa/Archive 1

In at the very deep end
Hello. While reading up on the SOIC, and especially when I started writing about the Grills, there was a name of a Chinese man that kept popping up everywhere. Since I saw that there was a red link to him I finally realized that it would be easiest to start writing an article about him in tandem with the Grills so I would not have to look up the same pages twice. But, as you can imagine, this article is way, way, way out of my comfort zone, so I'm almost afraid to present it to you! It must contain so many laughable mistakes, sorry... For starters I could not even make a draft page since I do not know which spelling of the name to use, so I made a second sandbox for it. Hopefully you can help me with this. Here are some of my concerns:


 * There is a red link Puankhequa（潘启官） at the Thirteen Factories (I do not know if there are more red links in other places) but I am very unsure of keeping this spelling. It does not correspond with any of the sources where he is mentioned. As a best guess I have used the spelling from the documents and letters in the correspondence with Grill. I'm just guessing that he did not mind this spelling since it is repeated time and time again. Also, one name seems to be the family name and another similar, his own. The link to the contract in ref no. 5 should be useful in sussing this out.


 * There might be things that do not belong in an article (refs to primary sources that I put there to facilitate the search for the right spelling), too many ways to spell the name (they all come from one source or another, I thought it might be a good idea to collect them somewhere so that readers can see that it is the same guy) or maybe should be moved to some other article (like the facts about Afock, I put it there to emphasize that P did not come to Sweden since it is a very widely spread misconception). But anything can be pruned. I don't mind. Pruning is easier than adding.


 * There is a picture of P here that could be used as a fair use picture. Don't know if one is allowed to Photoshop it for a better perspective, but I can do that if it's ok.


 * The article is very much from the Swedish point of view, but once in the main I hope that other perspectives can be added to it. (And I seem to recall that you wanted the China trade covered from some different angle?) I found some other sources that I mention briefly.


 * I also hope that I remember the use of Chinese names correctly. In one of the refs the author is May-bo Ching. Is it correct to write "|last=May-bo|first=Ching"? Or should it be the other way around?

Anyway, it's a start, and now I have someplace to put facts about P as I stumble upon them while writing the rest. Still a lot left to do on the Grills and this first (almost) draft can rest safe and sound here if you have other things than this to do. No hurry. All the best, w.carter -Talk  22:41, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

And thank you for correcting my language at Supercargo. It is very instructive to read, contemplate and learn from your edits. You are almost becoming my "most read author". Cheers, w.carter -Talk  13:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

This is as far as I get with this gentleman. I have read a bit more in the English books and included what I could. There are so many intrigues in one of the books about Chinese bureaucracy, something I know nothing about, that I could not fully understand, so I left it out. That part is for someone else to write. I have written everything I could find in the Swedish books along with even more ways to spell his name. There are some Chinese characters for his "real" name at ref no. 3. I could not copy them since they are in a Google book. Looking forward to hear what you have to say about the whole thing. Best, w.carter -Talk  21:48, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Good work ! This is shaping up nicely. Comments that match your order:
 * The rules on naming people like this are found in Chinese Style Guide and Chinese Naming Conventions. While we normally use pinyin, (which would be Pānqǐguān), in this case because he lived at a time before pinyin existed, the alternative romanisation of Puankhequa is OK. I know it looks horrible, but there are sources out there (see this). Unfortunately, the water is further muddied as he was also known as Pan Youda (潘有度) and Zhixing (致祥) (which was his courtesy title or zi). Don't forget, with the hongs, the trading name stayed the same even when the boss died (so we have Puankhequa I and II at least).
 * See closing comment below.
 * The picture is tricky - if you claim it as fair use the argument will be that it's public domain because of its age and that other pictures are available without having to use a copyrighted one (see here).
 * Don't worry about the Swedish focus for now - that will change over time.
 * Ching May-bo is the correct order with surname first. But this appears to be a Hong Kong name and they use Western ordering - the clue is in the "May", it isn't a pinyin syllable. Go by what it says on the book's dust jacket.


 * Let me know when you've finished writing this as it could do with a copyedit - this would also be the time to prune anything that doesn't need to be there. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 05:20, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you . Good to hear that I did not make a total mess of it all. I will get right on fixing things as far as I can. About the picture you linked to: Thanks for finding it. It's tricky to search for pictures when the spelling is unclear or mostly out of my reach (Chinese). Looks like this is the "perfect revenge" for all the Swedish I've thrown at you. :) Is it free to upload on Commons? If so I will use it. And if I ever get to Göteborg I can take a picture of the painting myself and upload it. Things in Swedish museums are free to photograph and upload for anyone, but photos taken by people working in the museum (such as my example) are only free up to a point, . I have been lectured on this by the good people at Commons.


 * When writing about these two families/trading houses/firms I can see why Puankhequa and Jean Abraham Grill got along so well. They were very much of the same breed and ilk. Writing about them at the same time certainly gave me a better perspective on the whole thing. Best, w.carter -Talk  08:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Alas no,, the picture does not appear to be free - the website is showing a big fat copyright notice. I think that a photo for the article can probably wait for your trip to the museum. Now, if you want a real challenge, you could translate this into Swedish - only kidding  Philg88 ♦talk 09:13, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Nice try... w.carter  -Talk  09:39, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

All done for now
So,, some changes are made and I think it is ready to be copyedited. Notes: To think I started out here at the EngWiki thinking I was only going to translate articles about Swedish artists! Little did I know... Cheers, w.carter -Talk  18:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Names pruned down to the Chinese ones, which I hope you can sort out further. Swedish misspellings kept for the sake of other researchers, but banished to a ref.
 * Afock just mentioned in passing. I will put that info in a more appropriate setting at the SOIC, where it belong in the "intrigues & bribes" section.
 * The digitized archives are now in the External links. Unfortunately, in the best (Nordic Museum), it's impossible to link directly to specific documents. Would you be so kind as to serve as "test lab rat" and see if you can find the tidbit in the maze by using the instructions I have given at the link? If the info is insufficient, I can correct it. If you click about in a similar fashion on other things among 12:J.A. Grills privata affärer ("Private affairs of J A Grill") you will find other documents in English and Latin that you might enjoy reading.
 * The two maps, the one of Canton and the close-up, may seems like overkill to you since you know the place so well, but there is a method to my madness. I have read about the "two-walled city of Canton" but until I saw this map I just thought that there were double walls around the city, like at a European castle or something. This map clarified things for the first time. I also wanted this map since it correspond better with the ones (copyrighted : in my books that the map at the Thirteen Factories.
 * I included a ref about the Hoppo since readers might have a hard time locating this "name" otherwise. A small humorous note: The Swedes had trouble calling him "Hoppo" since the word is too similar to the Swedish nickname "Hoppe". The nickname literary means "Jumpy" and is a common name for pet rabbits owned by seven year old girls. :) Hence: Hoppe. Imagine if he had known...:)
 * And since I have written it, a CE is of course imperative...


 * Hey, nothing wrong with hopping rabbits. I'm sure that there are lots of similarly named pets in England. However, "Hoppo" was used incorrectly all along by the foreign devils. It's a corruption of Hubu (户部), which means department of imperial household revenue whereas he was actually a customs (haiguan; 海关) official. So now you know.


 * I found the document referenced in the external link no problem.


 * The copyedit is now done and the Puankhequa is ready for a move to main space. It's a really nice article, well done and thank you. Philg88 ♦talk 07:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination
There must be projects, fr which this article is relevant, please add, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Template:Did you know nominations/Puankhequa


 * Maybe the same projects as listed at Howqua another of the Hongs mentioned at the Thirteen Factories. I won't do it myself since I am unfamiliar with the rating system. w.carter -Talk  20:34, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ Philg88 ♦talk 05:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Unclear
I don't want to bloat the DYK review with this minor points (who wants to be bloated?) so I'll put them here:
 * Puankhequa was the son of P'u-chai who originated from Changchow (now known as Zhangzhou); was it Puankhequa or P'u-chai who originated from Changchow?
 * By 1750, Puankhequa was a leading merchant despite twice being listed as the last of the six monopolists recognized by officials in 1755. If you are one of the six monopolists surely you are a leading merchant as there are only five people ahead of you at most. If he was twice listed as last of the six hotdog sellers I think the "despite" could stand, but "monopolists" suggests some major control of trade in Canton.
 * I've said at the DYK review that perhaps the article should be moved to his pinyin name, but there is also a case for moving it to T'ung-wen as it is really mostly about his trading activities and has quite a lot of information the trading activities of his son after Puankhequa I's death (I know, amazing isn't it? I'm demanding and indecisive.) Belle (talk) 10:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Belle.
 * The source states that the family originated from Changchow, so probably just the father. It is possible that the family had moved by the time Puankhequa was born.
 * I'll see if I can clarify the monopoly thing later today (when I'm at home editing under better conditions than now, sneaking a peak at work).
 * As for the pinyin, this has been addressed (there is a reason) here at the talk page but is now in the archives (look it up). Or ask he's our resident expert in Chinese matters. And I'll sort out the things attributed to the son. Best, w.carter  -Talk  11:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The article title is compliant with the relevant naming conventions as it stands (see the archive above) so there's no need for a move to his pinyin or any other name. Chinese hongs at this time used the name of their progenitor so the two are synonymous. Philg88 ♦talk 14:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi. Yes, sorry, I should have checked that archive first (but it is so hidden away and I'm so busy; busy, not dizzy; and unobservant that it was never going to happen). That raises another point though: if the hong is named after him what is the T'ung-wen name referring to? Belle (talk) 15:05, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Based on the Cheong reference, T'ung-wen was the trading name of the firm from 1736-1814, which then became Tung-fu and traded until 1843 (i.e. post-First Opium War and the Treaty of Nanking, which killed the Canton trade). Per WP:COMMONNAME, I don't think that is sufficient reason to move the article since there is far more coverage of Puankhequa than there is of the other names. Might be worth making the relationship a bit clearer in the article text.  Philg88 ♦talk 16:31, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi y'all! I am going to revisit all sources and try to fix (some re-writing is required) all the questions raised here or at DYK. Hopefully things will be much clearer by tomorrow. Until then, best <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC) (aka Your User in Sweden, coming to you live from Visby.)

Tricky this is...
So, hopefully things are a bit clearer, otherwise: Please don't bite the Newbie too hard.


 * I repeat P’u-chai’s name in the first line. There is no easy, elegant way of avoiding this (known to me). "Puankhequa was the son of P'u-chai" does not state which of the parent’s name it is. Not self-evident to people not speaking Chinese. Puankhequa had an eponymous son or don't worry about it


 * Names. Yes one person can have many different names depending on the situation. Ever read a Russian novel? Or watched Downton Abbey, To the Manor Born, etc.? If you have trouble with this person’s names, just wait until the next article (written in tandem with this) about Puankhequa’s Swedish trading partners The Grills… Muahahaha …. Oh yes Russian novels are hard


 * Philg88, I’m being bold and call "Puankhequa" his "trading name". It is the best way I can think of to describe the use of the name to a larger, non-Chinese, audience. (I’m trying to translate the meaning more than the fact. Remember "Swan maiden"?) If it is not ok, I am open to suggestions. Its the one that Google knows.... Madonna is Madonna


 * Being "listed last" did not mean he was "the least" it was just that his name was written last in a list of names of hongs whom the foreigners could trade with. The foreigners ignored this and traded with him anyway. It is tricky to get the words right in the article. Please correct if someone knows a better phrasing. As to "monopolists". The source says "six monopolists" and implies that each had his own monopoly (tea, rice, porcelain, etc.) But since this is not exactly written I can not write anything else than "six monopolists" in the article. I think its called an oligarchy when a few people have a monopoly of power


 * As to the "a lot of information on the trading activities of his son": Puankhequa is mentioned by name 32 times on the page, and several more as "him" or "he". The son Puankhequa II is mentioned 5 times. (Papa rules!)


 * Victuallers: In "Legacy" I’m puzzled by the slightly ambiguous meaning in "Since it was used by Puankhequa it has been divided.." Has it been divided because P used it, or after he used it? Since means after not because. After he died and over time his vast mansion got sub-let and sub-sold

That's all folks! :) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  20:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Comments in italics Victuallers (talk) 22:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Philg88, I can't help but think of this every time I read your edits. :) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  20:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * need to disambiguate that comment :) According to the linked article it means either that I solve problems by cheating or by thinking outside the box. Either way, shaping up nicely the article is and you'll soon be in receipt of your first shiny DYK. Philg88 ♦talk 21:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I Think you somehow managed to combine the two ways of solving it. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  21:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)