Talk:Pub names/Archive 1

Comments
This article is still very partial. I am also convinced that there must be a better format for this material. --TheoClarke 03:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * It's a start. Three other popular names  (off the top of my head) that you may want to add to the list are The Plume of Feathers, The Checkers and the Horns.  David D. 20:46, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Duly added. --Theo (Talk) 23:20, 24 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, The Eagle (or Spread Eagle), The Eagle and Child, The Swan (or White Swan), The Saracen's Head (or Turk's Head), The Green Dragon, The White Lion, The Black Horse, The Nag's Head, The Coach and Horses, The Hare and Hounds, The Horseshoes (often Three Horseshoes), The Horse and Groom, The Waggon and Horses, The Plough, The Bell (or Bells), The New Inn, The Ship, The Pineapple, The Rising Sun, The Star (or Seven Stars), The Anchor (often Blue Anchor), The Peacock, The Bull (often Black Bull), The Green Man, The Crossed Keys, The Blacksmith's Arms (or some other specific person's arms), The Railway Tavern, The Lincolnshire Poacher, The Cat and Fiddle, The Bear and Ragged Staff, The Pig and Whistle, The Fawcett Inn, The Grapes, The Golden Lion, The Blue Boar, The Dog and Duck, The Cock, The Lamb And Flag, Dukes (Duke of Wellington, Duke of York), The Angel, The Greyhound, The Globe, The Travellers' Rest, The Hole in the Wall.


 * Chains: The Rat and Parrot, The Slug and Lettuce, The ... and Firkin, All Bar One.


 * plus more or less famous old pubs: Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese, The Cittie of Yorke, The George, London; Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem, The Salutation Inn, Nottingham; Ye Olde Fighting Cocks, St Albans; The Old Ferry Boat, Holywell, Cambridgeshire; The Skirrid Mountain Inn, Llanfihangel Crocorney, near Abergavenny; The Clachan Inn, Loch Lomond; The Bingley Arms, Bardsey, Leeds; The Eagle and Child, Stow-on-the-Wold; The Man and Scythe, Bolton. Need I go on?


 * Links -, , , , ,


 * I need a drink. -- ALoan (Talk) 29 June 2005 19:08 (UTC)

The Chequers
I'm not sure the origin of the name The Chequers is correct, although many pubs so named do tend to have pub signs based on heraldry or chess boards. A less well known, though more likely origin for the name is in relation to the Wild Service Tree or Chequers Tree (Sorbus torminalis). The fruit of the Wild Service Tree, which are also called chequers, were used as a flavouring for beer before the introduction of hops. See for example the description at the bottom of this page]. -- Solipsist 13:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Additions and alterations
The Canterbury Tales is not a novel. Its a poem or a series of tales told in verse. It also begins in a pub - The Tabard in Southwark. (Johnny Mac L25 - The Woolton Literati)

I am adding and rewriting many of the derivations of pub names so I better introduce myself. I am Mark Andrew Pardoe (pica pica) and I have researched and lectured on the derivation and history of pub names over the last ten years. I thank those who have gone ahead and hope they will not be angered by my work. Of course I am willing to enter into any discussion and correspondence concerning pub names; in fact I will be greatly interested in what others have to say.

Cheers, Mark


 * I have just done a little bit of tidying and POV removal. Nothing major.  I like the way this article is starting to develop.  I've also added the origin of the Swan With Two Necks as a pub name. Hope that meets with everyone's approval. Duncshine 12:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Whatho Duncshine, Thanks for your help. It's probably a good idea to keep my sence of humour under control! Mark --Pica pica 22:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ha ha, no worries. I'm the same, have to force myself not to add facetious comments. I keep meaning to sit down and go through this article, adding some more relevant pub names and filling in more detail on others.  Just a question of finding the time.  Keep up the good work! Duncshine 08:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Whatho Dunshine, You've got me again with the Robin Hood. I can't get anything past you! --Pica pica 18:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * And it makes me seem like such a miserable swine! Keep up the good work, though, please! BTW: Looking at this article, I think it needs a bit of an overhaul. The category headings seem a bit higgledy-piggledy to me.  What do you think? Duncshine 09:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

heraldic badges
The entry Horns, connecting that sign to the white hart of Richard II, implies that antlers are meant, which is surprising. If it means the kind of horns that hunters blow, what has the hart to do with it? —Tamfang 08:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The royal arms of Scotland featured a red lion long before Robert II, the first Stewart king, so it's misleading to call it a Stuart symbol. (The Stewart coat of arms is Or, a fess chequy azure and argent.) And what does that mean, anyway, "James I decreed that the Red Lion be displayed throughout the kingdom"? That it was now an element of the royal arms of England, or something else? —08:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

puns questioned
The suggestion that the names Dew Drop Inn or Hop Inn are puns seems to me to be totally erroneous. The Drop of Dew (also a pub name) is a traditional way of referring to alcoholic drinks, especially spirits (mountain dew, collecting the dew from the barmaid's apron), while the importance of hops in the brewing process hardly justifies the less obvious interpretation of it as a pun. The appeal of pub names to those who like to offer 'explanations' is very great. Elephant and Castle is emphatically not a corruption of Infanta de Castille, and there is no reason to suppose the Goat and Compasses is a corruption of God Encompasseth Us. As always, areas of uncertainty attract those who like to stamp authority, no matter how baselessly.(Tomwootton (talk) 08:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC))


 * (Please add new sections at the bottom, using the '+' button.) On the other hand, it would be going too far to say that the pun value was never a consideration in adopting a name such as Dew Drop Inn.  —Tamfang (talk) 17:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Moved from Public house
Some of this could be merged into the article where appropriate.  SilkTork  *YES! 23:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is a list of categories:
 * relating to its location: The Three Arrows, The Cross, The Railway, The Church
 * reflecting local trades or related to the pub's clientele: The Mason's Arms, The Foresters, The Square and Compass
 * ironic descriptions of the pub itself: the smallest pub in Britain is called The Nutshell
 * local sporting activities: The Cricketers, The Fox and Hounds, The Fighting Cocks
 * a noted individual: The Marquis of Granby (see below), The Earl of Derby, The Emma Hamilton
 * an historic event: The Trafalgar, The Royal Oak
 * often incorporating the word 'Head'; The King's Head, The Queen's Head, The Sultan's Head
 * alluding amusingly to everyday phrases: The Nowhere Inn Particular (now closed, see picture), The Dewdrop Inn, The Drift Inn (known locally as the "stagger oot"), Down The Hatch, The Occasional Half
 * with a royal or aristocratic association: The Royal Standard, The King's Arms, The King's Head, The Queen Victoria, The Duke of Cambridge, The Anglesea Arms
 * with the names of two objects that may or may not be complementary: The George and Dragon, The Goat and Compasses (humorous corruption of the puritan phrase "God encompass" of the 1600s in England), The Rose and Crown, The Dog and Handgun, The Elephant and Castle, The Crow and Gate, The Rummer and Grapes.
 * The surname of its landlord, particularly in Ireland: O'Neill's, Tí hAnraí (Henry's house).
 * with names of tools or products of trades: The Harrow, The Propeller,The Plow, The Wheatsheaf
 * with names of items, particularly animals, that may be part of a coat of arms (heraldic charges): The Red Lion, The Unicorn, The White Bear.
 * with reference to history of the local area, for example The Strugglers in Lincoln refers to how people being publicly executed by hanging would struggle for air. Ironically the famous executioner Albert Pierrepoint was landlord of the Help the Poor Struggler at Hollinwood, near Oldham, for several years after World War II, and had to hang one of his own regulars, James Corbitt. Also Ye olde Trip to Jerusalem, (Nottingham, 1189), refers to its role as a resting place for the knights of King Richard I on their way to the Third Crusade.

Pub Task Force
Anyone interesting in working for a while on improving the pub articles? Sorting out the stubs. Organising the categories. Creating a Pub InfoBox. Drawing up some kind of notability guideline, and checking that pub articles are meeting the guidelines. Drawing up a Style guideline. Working on the editing of the main articles - Public house,List of public houses in the United Kingdom, Bar (establishment), etc. Considering how to integrate all the drinking establishments around the globe. Perhaps create a new parent article: Drinking establishment. I've started working on the pub articles, but I would really like to work with other people to bounce ideas and keep within consensus. Check in at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Beer, or respond here or drop a message on my talk page. Cheers!  SilkTork  *YES! 23:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Platform 13
Is a hotel bar opposite Birmingham New Street Station, which has its platforms numbered 1-12. Since it's not a pub strictly speaking I haven't put it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.228.174 (talk) 15:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Nelson

 *  Lord Nelson: Quite a common name (in various forms) throughout England but especially in Norfolk, where the admiral was born.

Which is most common in Norfolk, the pub sign or the surname? Or both? —Tamfang (talk) 17:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The Labour In Vain
I'd like to include this, but don't think there is an appropriate category, I find this quite interesting:

The present sign is the innocuous replacement for one that became the centre of a storm a dozen or so years ago. As readers may remember, the original illustration was of a white couple trying to scrub the blackness off a black child in a tub. It was deemed by many to be in poor taste and potentially offensive, but there was an outcry when it was removed following a protest by two schoolgirls.

Brutal Deluxe (talk) 21:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

This is mentioned in Paul Corballis's book on Inn Signs and the picture of a black boy in a tub is a traditional inn sign and although the landlord probably did not intend it to be offensive, I think it is, especially as there must be any number of alternatives.--Streona (talk) 13:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Puns and Corruptions
I'm tempted to split this section: jokes like Dew Drop Inn and The Office are not the same thing as (purported) corruptions like Pig and Whistle. Opinions? —Tamfang (talk) 18:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm, but then where would Swan with Two Nicks/Necks belong? —Tamfang (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

"Ye Olde Tippling Philosopher"
Does anyone know the origin of the name of this pub, in Caldicot, Monmouthshire? I have sources stating it was known by that name by the 1840s, but with no explanation. There is a second pub with the same name in Milborne Port, Dorset, over 60 miles away. Is there a literary reason for the name, or any other known basis? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Black what?

 * Black Horse (Black Bess): usually named after the legendary overnight ride from London to York in 1737 by Dick Turpin.

This is somewhat confusing. Is the claim here that most Black Horses are named for Turpin's Black Bess? Or that there's a substantial number of pubs known by both names? —Tamfang (talk) 21:52, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

The Pigs
I removed this one:
 * Pigs, Edgefield, Norfolk, formerly Three Pigs, originally Bacon Arms.

It was recently added under "The pub itself", where it clearly doesn't belong. I don't see a section for Animals in general. Does it belong under Food or Heraldry? What Bacon family might be so honored, and what are their arms? —Tamfang (talk) 04:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Admiral Benbow

 * Admiral Benbow, Penzance: fictional home of Jim Hawkins in Robert Louis Stevenson's novel Treasure Island (1883).

I'm removing this from the Literature section, which is for real pubs named from literature. A list of fictional pubs would be asking for trouble. —Tamfang (talk) 17:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Racehorses?
I just added a sub-section under 'Animals' to cover pubs named after individual animals, for example the pub called after the foxhound Blue Cap. This made me think about the large number of pubs named after individual racehorses. Some are still fairly famous such as Arkle, Golden Miller; but there are also a number of pubs called after 'forgotten' racehorses, though you might not know it unless you saw the signs, e.g. The Windmill, The Happy Man. Should there be a sub-section for 'Racehorses' and if so, should it go under 'Sports' or 'Animals'? RLamb (talk) 08:11, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

miscellaneous edits
I haven't been here in a while, and I'm making a bunch of minor edits; summarizing them would be too much for one line.


 * Barley Mow: Barley is laid in a malting, watered and heated gently until the grain germinates. Cooking then kills the germination process, and the result is called malt. Malt is the ingredient in beer which gives it its sweet taste and colour. The mow is a stack.

I shortened this; no need for a detailed description of what is done with the barley after it is gathered in a mow.


 * De Hems (Dutch De Hems is a previous landlord's surname, it doesn't mean the windmill, as that would be "De Windmolen"), Leicester Square, London

Deleted. This formerly said that hems means windmill; we don't need a listing that says it does not mean windmill!


 * Dolphin: Many establishments carrying this name are many miles from the sea. Those that are not are generally named from an Anglicised version of the French "Dauphin". After battles between England and France in which England were victorious, the name "Le Dauphin" was purposely chosen for establishments to add insult to injury. These include "The Dolphin" in Wellington, Somerset which was named in honour of Wellington's victory at the Battle of Waterloo. Many locals could either not pronounce the French version, or were unlikely to use French expressions, and so "Le Dauphin" became "The Dolphin" as a popular name for public houses.

Shortened. —Tamfang (talk) 23:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)