Talk:Punisher/Archive 1

Merger
Note: Some of the material in this article has been copied from The Punisher. See the edit history of that article for attributions. &mdash;Paul A 01:53, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Oppose merger. I'd also suggest severaly cutting down Punisher: MAX, which is so minutely detailed I doubt it's of encyclopedic use — it's too overwhelmingly obsessive to help a person not versed in the Punisher, and reads not like an encyclopedia article but a fan site. The level of detail may also violate Marvel copyright, in the manner of several quashed books and websites about TV shows and movies. -- Tenebrae 21:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Changing my vote to Merge, since most other comics-character articles include alternate versions such as Marvel's "Ultimate" universe. (Note that while some MAX comics are in mainstream continuity, others, such as the Nick Fury miniseries, reportedly aren't. Don't know where Punisher MAX falls.) This would also address the lengthiness and over-detail here, by condensing the material to fit within a section. -- Tenebrae 18:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge - Cut Punisger: MAX down and merge it. Someone more familiar with the subject may want to do this, but I will do so if need be. --Chris Griswold 00:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge -I have to agree merge it, makes more sense to me to have everything all together Danrduggan 15:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose but edit Punisher Max. There is lots of precedent for the multiple titles of characters having separate entries, and given that Punisher Max is such a departure from other depictions it has a pretty strong claim. Obviously there will be crossover in some of the material in both articles but that too is standard elsewhere. However the Max article is full of unimportant detail and plot information and all that stuff needs to be severely edited out while more real world details, such as a timelines of publication, could be added. Hueysheridan 17:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Oppose merger. If we merge Punisher MAX into Punisher we should merge here also all articles listing issues with division to series and descriptions what would probably create wikipedias biggest article as there are about 20 articles like that. Some of them done pretty well like The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe. I don't get why to merge those articles together, one is about whole punisher character/phenomen and other one is about specific series of issues. (thanks for notice Hueysheridan) Jakilcz 22:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge - This isn't alternate continuity, is it? If so, I would say go ahead and keep it, but trim it. If this is main continuity there's no reason to keep it, just continue the same Punisher article, noting the changes in the character due to the MAX imprint. --Newt ΨΦ 22:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge and severely pare down. Wikiproject Comics' worst impulse is for enthusiastic plot breakdowns to the point of minutia. I have no problem with plot synopses at all (I've discovered several wonderful comics titles based on them) but no more than a few sentences are needed, and certainly not an issue-by-issue recap. This isn't ComicBooksWithoutPity.com . -Markeer 13:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose there should be enough room for both

Merge and trim. We don't need blow-by-blows here. And if there are sub articles, we can make an infobox: Punisher Storylines and go from there. -- Ipstenu ( talk | contribs ) 16:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

With the total votes on the page at 7-2 in favor, I'm gonna call this one a CONSENSUS TO MERGE. CovenantD 16:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose I don't think it would add any value to the site by merging the two articles. The history article, as mentioned above, is entirely too mired in minutia, and the plot selection is very arbitrary. It isn't really a history of the character at all, but rather a detailed recap of several story arcs.

RPG stats
I removed the following from the article because I really don't think RPG stats belong in Wikipedia. Since large numbers of these "vital stats" sections have been added to various articles, I'm using Talk:Strength level (comics) to discuss this issue in general. Bryan 08:00, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)  Also, copying such detailed RPG stats would be a copyright infringement. Wryspy 06:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Vital Statistics

 * Name: Frank Castle
 * Occupation: Vigilante
 * Hieght: 6'1
 * Wieght: 200 lbs.
 * Eyes: Blue
 * Hair: Black
 * Intelligence Level: Above Normal
 * Strength Level: Peak Human
 * Endurance Level: Peak Human
 * (sometimes enhanced by body armor)
 * Stamina Level: Peak Human
 * Speed Level: Athlete or Greater
 * Agility Level: Athlete or Greater
 * Reflexes: Peak Human
 * Special Skills, Abilities, Paraphenelia: The Punisher has at his disposal all manner of conventional and state of the art weaponry. Frank Castle is a master of many forms of unarmed combat, armed combat, and is a phenomenal marksman.  The Punisher's arsenal and resourcefulness have made him infamous to organized crime.

Supervillain?
"The Punisher was a novel character in mainstream superhero comics when he debuted in 1974 in that he was willing to use lethal force to accomplish his aims, without actually being a supervillain." Wasn't he per se a "supervillain", since he was an antagonist to Spider-Man?


 * Not all superhero antagonists are necessarily villains - there is, for instance, a long and noble tradition of two superheroes meeting for the first time and spending most of the issue beating each other up before realising/deciding that they're actually on the same side. The Punisher's first appearance belongs to this tradition: he goes after Spider-Man because he's been tricked by the issue's real villain into thinking that Spidey is one of the bad guys. --Paul A 06:51, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Other notable appearances?
Should the bibliography mention stuff like his appearances in Damage Control, Captain Marvel, or the Earth X sequels? DS 12:36, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Revenge / Punishment
"he not only takes his vengence on the criminals who slew his family and those who ordered the hit but all criminals full stop."

I'm not sure about this. Castle repeatedly states that he's not doing this for revenge, that it's for punishment.

I think this paragraph should be amended stating that while the basic theme/premise behind the Punisher is one of vengeance, the Punisher himself does not feel that his actions are out of vengeance, but out of a desire to punish those criminals who might otherwise get away with their crimes. Something like:

"The Punisher can be seen as the revenge genre taken to an extreme as he not only takes his vengeance on the criminals who killed his family but all criminals full stop. There is no final villain as is the case with many revenge sagas, the Punisher's war with crime continues without end. The Punisher himself does not acknowledge that he engages in his war against the criminal underworld as vengeance for his deceased family.  Instead, the Punisher decrees to himself that he chooses to continue the War in an effort to punish the criminal elements that might otherwise never be brought to justice." --Thenedain 05:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Opinion and the same links
Why does Punisher War Zone.com have two links? When one link takes you too both the site and the forums? And why does The Punisher War Zone say it's the number 1 site??? That's opinion, not fact. And why is a fan site listed on top?

English, people
Some of the spelling and grammar in this article has been atrocious. I've done what I can to clean things up, but I'm sure it'll resurface in time. - AWF

I've edited the first two sections, but the rest is a mess. And that took an hour. Eesh. -PD


 * Added a cleanup template. Halfway into the "Character history" section, the spelling, grammar, and prose deteriorates noticeably. If I have time, I might try my hand at helping clean it up, but there's a lot of work that needs to be done on this article.
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 12:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Did a ton of work on the "Character history" section, but I'm still not happy with some of its organization. I'll probably come back later to work on it a bit more.
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 05:37, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It appears that someone is systematically undoing the edits that are being made. Your thoughts? -PD
 * I haven't noticed this happening and I have this page on my watchlist. What edits are you talking about specifically? Cheers.
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 06:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed possibly non-notable information from Ultimate Marvel version section

 * He is later seen trying to kill a bank robber, but is stopped by Spider-Man, who also catches the criminal.


 * That story (Ultimate Spider-Man #61) didn't sit well with Punisher fans. The Punisher is seen screaming his head off and shooting his guns and almost killing others like some maniac. Many fans complained that the Punisher was purposely written out of character, simply because the writer didn't have a liking for the character.

I removed this from the "Ultimate Marvel version" section because it didn't seem very notable. We can't include every comic that fans didn't like. Unless there was a real uproar over this, or this was indicative of a greater trend, I don't think it should be included. If someone can come up with that information and add it to what was there, then, by all means go for it. But until then, I think I'm going to keep it quarantined here on the talk page. Cheers.

-- Hinotori(talk) 06:15, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, it was me eho added the info about his later appearance in Ultimate Spider-Man, where he fought a bank robber equipped with some kind of flying suit and was stopped by Spidey. Someone else written the part about fans not liking the story. I think the piece about the action should be left. It is, as far as I know, the only Ultimate Punisher appearance since he was imprisoned. So I think one line is not too much for this, as it is important to note, that he managed to escape from the prison. If he will continue to apperar of course this one little fact will be not significiant, but so far it is the only thing we have exept the Ultimate Marvel Team Up story. Cheers

Oh, one more thing. I think it should be noted, that Punisher doesn;t have his own Ultimate Punisher comic book, and that he only appeared as o guest in Ultimate Marvel Team-Up next to Spider-Man (who can be called the host of this serries) and Daredevil. I would be good to mention also that Frank and Jillette weren't just "caught by the police" as it is written now, but, that Castle fought Daredevil and was knocked out by interferring Spider-Man and that delivered by him to a police station. I could do it myself but I'm afraid that my English can be not good enough to play with bigger parts of text.


 * Ahh ok. That's a LOT more information than what was there originally. I'd consider that notable in its entirety, but it needs to be added in coherently. I'll try to go ahead and do so when I have a few moments free. Just to clarify, youre saying that Frank and Jillete weren't actually caught by the police but were brought to the police station by Spiderman who had knocked them both out, right?


 * Thanks a lot for clarifying. :)
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 02:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I think It's story from Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 6,7 and 8. There was typical Daredevil vs. Punisher fight. None of them wanted to kill another but Daredevil wanted to persuade Frank not to kill criminals and Frank wanted Matt to leave him alone ;-) They met one time and then another. Daredevil started talking to Punisher that, what he does is not good (as in normal Marvel) when Frank was pointing his gun at Jillette. Suddenly out of nowhere Spider-Man swung in and knocked out Punisher with o kick. Daredevil told him to take Frank to the police and pursued Jillette who had started to flee. So it was probably Daredevil who brought Jillette to justice. I know that rewriting the whole story makes no sense. But! There are several important things:

- Daredevil and Punisher are fighting - as in mainstream Marvel. The roof scene even resembles a scene from Welcome Back Fran miniserries (I think it was issue #3) but here it is Punisher who loses the fight.

- wrting that Punisher was just caught by normal police is a bit dishonouring for him ;-) It would seem that he is not too good really. Beeing stopped by two super-powered heroes is another thing (even if they hate each other and one behaves like an idiot)

- when he next apears in Ultimate Spider-Man, it was issue 50-sometning I think (the first story about Carnage) it is clarified that also Spider-Man does not agree with his methods. So, despite that in Ultimate world Daredevil and Spidey are not friends, both of them will probably try to stop Frank when he escapes from prison next time. I'm not sure if you are able to get these UMTU issues (great artwork BTW).

This thing about liking or not liking the scence from USM when Frank is fighting the bank robber... I think that it's normal that Punisher's fans didn't like it :-P He appeared on one page, on 3 or 4 pctures maybe and was rather easily stopped by Spidey. It's strange that he was shooting carelessly all the time, but I think that we can not base any characteristic profile on this scene. Remember that in past he was also often shown as an idiot who shoots even peaople crossing the street in wrong place. I just think, that as it was the onyl subsequent appearance of the cahracter it should be noted.


 * Whew. Ok, I added much of that information back in. Tell me what you think. :) Two more things you could perhaps help clarify (since you seem to know a lot about the series :D).


 * 1) What happened between when he's "laying on the ground bleeding," and when he kills the two crooked cops (David and unnamed dude)? Does he kill them immediately, while wounded? Or does he recover first and then goes after them?
 * 2) Secondly how did he get out of prison (escaped? parole?) and how did he kill the other two cops (Nick and Bruce)? How long did it take for him to find Artie?


 * Thanks for your help so far!
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 18:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Great job you've done changing my mumbling into some readable language.

And now the answers:

1) To tell the truth, I don't know. I've never read the first issue of that story. I only read in the Net that he attacked inamtes during a meal when they were talking about Spider-Man or Daredvil. I'm not sure if he killed any of them, but probably he did (he's The Punisher anyway ;-) ).

2) He was talking with his lawyer who left some stuff on the table. I think it was paper clip and plastic cup or somethning like that ;-). I don't know if his escape is seen but we can suspect that he used this stuff to free himself. As I said I did'n read the first story but I'm not sure if there is any info about how he killed the first guys and was arrested. The whole story is told by his ex-partner to Matt Murdock in a retrospection. Just after telling the story he is killed by the Punisher who shoots through the window. I'm not sure about the order of the events, but I think that then he's got a talk with Daredevil on o roof. Finally he shoots in the direction of Daredevil, but it is explained by Murdock that he must have wanted to miss, as Daredevil's powers don't allow him to dodge bullets. Another guy is shot with a shotgun on a parking in front of a pub, just after the gou attacked someone for saying a good thing about Punisher. I thnk, that Frank dragged the guy out. Then he told something and shot him. Then there was the final scene with Daredevil and Spider-Man. Spider-Man attacked Puniher because he was aiming at Jillete's head.

Ah! Punisher made a cameo together with many other heroes in the Ultimate Marvel Team-Up Super-Special. When Peter Parker gives says his homework in front of the class there are depictions of the heroes he had met before that illustrate the current part of the lecture. There are daredevil and Punisher holding a shotgun depicted on one of the pictures. In the same issue we can also see Kong - Peter's classmate, who is not apparently the brightest guy in Ultimate Marvel universe, disguised as the Punisher when giving his speech (the homework's topic was about Super-Heroes). It seems that the Punisher became some kind of a celebrity in this Universe, as in one the Ultimate X-men there is a teenager who has a t-shirt with Punisher's skull on it. The guy also had posters of Spider-man and X-men in his room so it can be just an in-joke. On the other hand this issue is quite serious. So it seems, that you can buy Punisher T-shirts in Ultimate Marvel Universe ;-)

One More thing. Punisher also appeared in X-Men the animated serries.. but only had a cameo, and it was a hologram or something in some kind of fighting simulation. He was depicted as in Spider-Man cartoon - he had a... a piece of material you wear around your head to look like Rambo (sorry, don't know the word...) and some kind of futuristic big gun.

I'm not sure if an info about forecoming Punisher cartoon can be reliable. Look at the page about Spider-Man the animated serries for the censorship and limitations creators of serries had to cope with. They couldn't even use real guns! Policemen were armed with some kind of laser weapons! The same was with X-men. I think that if this policy didn't change Punisher cartoon would be rather impossible. OK, cheers, I hope that it will be helpful.

Sorry for any lacking "e"s or any other letters, my keybord isn't working as it should do... Good Luck.

One more thing. The criminal who bribed the cops was the Owl, who is a Darevil enemy in normal Marvel Universe. He is descriped by Frank's ex-partner as "a kingpin wannabe".

And one more thing about cartoons: "Kraven was a hunter in Spider-Man: The Animated Series. (...) In Duel of the Hunters, he was called by Crawford to cure Spider-Man from his disease, until his hunt was intterupted by Punisher, who wanted to kill Spider-Man. In the end, they work together to cure Spider-Man" this part is copied from Kraven's wikipdia page. It was, a far as I know, the first appearance of Punisher in the serries.

Re: My revert
72.245.34.187, this is the second or third time you've undone many of my changes. If you have a problem with them, discuss them here before undoing them again. Let me explain why I reverted them back.

1) No offense, but your english and prose leave a little to be desired. I made many changes to improve the readability and flow of the article. Pasting your text back in right afterwards without editting them in smoothly makes the overall article disorganized and occasionally repetitive.

2) Much of the content is unchanged. I don't know if you even read my changes, but if you had, you would notice that much of the information you provided is still intact. Thus, when you put back your text, the same information is often presented twice (e.g. his not-quite relationship with the assassin).

3) Some of your text reflects a somewhat biased perspective. Remember, this is an encyclopedia. While a lot of your comments are interesting (your comparisons to the Fantastic Four and Flash in particular), they're often provided in a sensationalistic, if not pro-Punisher way. While such writing may be at home in a marketing campaign, I don't think the prose fits well with the format of an encyclopedia. Regarding those examples in particular, I don't even know if that's entirely true. Yes, the Punisher is an anti-hero who is different from many altruistic superheroes, but the concept of anti-heroes is not a new one (hence why there's a name for it). So saying that he's entirely unique is a bit of a stretch.

Another section that's particularly biased is that on the Vietnam War. Saying that a generation was "lied" to is a POV. We have to preserve NPOV.

4) You removed the template regarding the merge. As far as I know, that issue hasn't even been addressed here yet. I think the suggestion is worthy of being discussed first, before removing the template entirely.

Again, please discuss the changes here before putting them back.

-- Hinotori(talk) 14:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
That's starting to sound like fucking ass bullshit. So nobody at all can add anything else anymore??????? Your right and everybody else is wrong???? Is that how it is now?????


 * Hi. Thanks for the friendly introduction. Did you even read my comments above? One of the major issues is that the information is already IN there. If you have a problem with something in particular, talk about it instead of wildly making accusations. For the record, MORE THAN ONE PERSON has reverted your changes. In other words, most of the people here, as far as I know, appear to prefer the version I've editted. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying you should provide a defense for your changes before literally undoing the work I did. I kept your information and streamlined the article to the best of my ability; it has nothing to do with "me vs you."
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 15:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Help Wikipedia by expanding it.
''That's starting to sound like fucking ass bullshit. So nobody at all can add anything else anymore??????? Your right and everybody else is wrong???? Is that how it is now?????''

I'm with him or her on this. That's what it seems around here. Nobody esle is getting to a change to put in anything else. It's just all you. It is a you vs me. Or "us" vs you. Anything anyone else has to say or put in is taken out just like just becuase you don't like it. It looks like someone is palying favorites.

Indeed
''That's starting to sound like fucking ass bullshit. So nobody at all can add anything else anymore??????? Your right and everybody else is wrong???? Is that how it is now?????''

Indeed. That is fucking bullshit.


 * I hope you're aware that your ip and time of post is logged each time, so everyone knows that you and only you made all of the last 4 edits on this talk page. Unless of course, you're talking to the voices in your own head, in which case I suggest registering an account for each of them. Cheers.
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 17:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Warning!!! Warning!!! Warning!!!
You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. This false information. Anything that you would to put or say in will be taken out due to the fact that people hear will not agree with you.


 * So I can go to any article I want and insert giant ascii penises if I feel like it because I'm "expanding" the article? No. Anyone is allowed to make edits to Wikipedia but for the good of the encyclopedia as a whole, not to further a personal agenda. That means that you have to discuss disagreements with other people, not ramrod your changes in because you think your edits are better than anyone else's. Consensus is a goal here at Wikipedia (the link is to guideline; please read it). On a sidenote, so is civility (this is a policy), something which your rants here clearly lack. Please READ the guidelines and understand them before making ridiculous claims like the above. -- Hinotori(talk) 15:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Nice to know
''Warning!!! Warning!!! Warning!!! You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. This false information. Anything that you would to put or say in will be taken out due to the fact that people hear will not agree with you.''

Thanks. I won't come back here again.

Mergers
OK, WHY do we possibly need Brown Shoes insane creation, The Punisher v7? There is no need for this (poorly named) page to be separate from Punisher. None. And the whole History of the Punisher isn't needed separate either. Dyslexic agnostic 07:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC) Dyslexic agnostic 07:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The whole history page is as follows... "Then on Monday Frank Castle went for a walk in the park with his dog. Then on Tuesday he shaved.  Then he took a...".  Please.  Superman and Batman have nowhere near this level of detail, and those are far more significant characters than this one.


 * I definitely agree regarding The Punisher v7. I'm a little more hesitant about History of the Punisher, but, for the most part, I agree on that count as well. It might be possible to pare it down a bit, without making it a skeleton carbon copy of what's included here, but then again, I don't think a lot of the detail is necessary. I don't think we need much more discussion for the first. I'll try doing the honors if I have time and no one objects shortly. By the way, regardless of the irrationality of a user's submissions, please remember to be civil. Cheers.
 * -- Hinotori(talk) 10:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge the former, but leave the latter (the history) alone. Its large enough to warrent its own article and merging it back into the main Punish article would only serve to make it bloated.--KrossTalk 04:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with this approach - there are an awful lot of Punisher entries some unnecessary and some replicating data in other entries. As a side note there is also some other discussion on sorting out other Punisher entries over on the list of The Punisher comics talk page which could also do with input (Emperor 15:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC))

I agree with this. In a number of other articles relating to comics, the other storylines/one shots dealing with the character are mentioned in the main title, whereas larger histories are placed elsewhere. --Thenedain 05:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

More than one person here
You think he and she is the only one who uses the compueter here. We may use the same computere but that doesn't mean it's the same person.

Hahahah!
They think it's the same person...hehehe!


 * Frankly, I couldn't care less if it's the same person or not. It's pretty amusing that you first said, "I agree with him or her," and now it's "We" and "he and she." What happened? Did you suddenly remember what gender you were? Let's cut the crap and get to the real issue ok? If you (or your imaginary friends) disagree with something in the article, you can refer to the topic above and discuss them like an adult. Or you can continue to play charades like a child and probably get blocked from editting Wikipedia ever again. Your call. -- Hinotori(talk) 17:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)