Talk:Pwn/Archive 3

Debate Forum Restored
It appears coneslayer and a few other contributors are intent on reverting the pwned usage to ONLY gaming use. I do not consider myself an authority on gaming, nor do I care about whatever the word means in gaming circles. It has evolved, as language does, to become a word in common use in other places, debate forums being one where it now occurs regularly. I don't particularly care if the purists want to keep the word somehow restricted to gaming, but the fact is, Wikipedia does not serve as a final authority for the gaming community to their exclusion of all others. Wikipedia is SUPPOSED to be comprehensive. Eliminating an entry because it doesn't conform to your vision of reality serves no purpose for the general public, it limits knowledge, it gives a foreshortened view of the world, and it lessens the experience that is Wikipedia, for other users.

I don't want some kind of flame war over the inclusion of pwned as a debate tool, but I will not sit idly by and watch someone irresponsibly attempt to "burn the books" either. If you don't like the way I posted the explanation of pwned as a debate tool, edit the section, but PLEASE, stop reverting this article to some neolithic purist gamer pissing ground where gaming and ONLY gaming references are allowed. i4 07:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Whoa...could you tone done the venom a little? I will be removing the section you added, not because I necessarily disagree, but because you provided no sources for it. The article starts out by saying, "a term used primarily in the Internet gaming culture", not solely in gaming culture.  Whether it's in a game or on a forum, the term still refers to soundly defeating an opponent.  --Onorem 11:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, since the usage is newer, there is not a plethera of discussion or reference available as there would be for a usage going back ten decades or so. That's the price of documenting new trends.
 * You are incorrect. I provided 2 sources for my statement that it is used in debate in the fashion in which I posted. It was coneslayer who reverted the page and eradicated the source references. If you go back and look at the original version prior to his 10/23/06 reversion, you'll see 2 sources linking directly to the useage in debate as examples.

As someone who has participated heavily on that particular forum, wouldn't my own experience qualify as a "knowledgable source"? DUH!. It's neither the only debate forum where it's used nor the one where it's used most often in that fashion either. What does it matter if the term is or WAS primarily used in gaming? As I stated earlier, language is constantly evolving. I'm sorry you refuse to recognise the usage as it has evolved but that doesn't make it untrue.

More links to examples of usage;

pwned:

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=342869&page=5&highlight=pwned%21 see post #82 http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=383177&page=2&highlight=pwned%21 see post #26 http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=37474&t=341492&highlight=pwned%21 see post #11

OWNED!:

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=248005&page=2&highlight=pwned+owned see post #29-#31 for discussion on the merits http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=120439&page=3&highlight=pwned+owned see posts #41 - #54 for comparatives

Can we put this silly debate over sourcing aside now?

My statements are not filled with "venom" as you suggested. While I don't game, I have nothing in particular against those who do. What I AM aware of is the fact gamers consider themselves a "seperate culture" in the world of the internet and sometimes exhibit some rather proprietory behaviors. This is an example of such. Whether YOU happen to agree with my entry or not, you have no right to simply dismiss it without checking the references. THAT is elitist behavior. Perhaps you should check yourself, before assigning labels to others.

I pose this question. What harm is done by having the usage included?

I pose a second question. If the usage, as stated, fails to grow in use or dies away in the future, what is to prevent someone from coming in next year or in a couple years and then removing or changing the reference to one of being archaic and no longer in use?

Failure to thrive didn't make the dinosaurs any less real. Your refusal to recognise the usage is analogous to saying because there are no T-Rexes in the 21st century, we refuse to acknowledge that any dinosaurs ever existed.

Again, I refer you to the purpose of Wikipedia. It is to be a COMPREHENSIVE source, not an exclusionary one. Stop playing the "pwned!" game with it. If this were a debate, a SINGLE usage would already confer upon me a "pwned!" over you since I can and have already linked to the usage in current practice. It exists, you lose AND are supporting a known falsehood.

Should you continue to wage this battle, you run the risk of being OWNED! - as someone who refuses to see the reality placed before their eyes in hard print and defends a position that is plain for anyone to see is not only wrong...but you are being willfully stubborn in continuing to perpetrate a falsehood.

I am reverting to my original posting. i4 19:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In my eyes, this section is vastly over-long and mostly irrelevant. If I understand you correctly, you are adding this information to demonstrate that pwn is not used solely in gaming circles any more. That's fine, though the article already says this, much more concisely, in the early lines like "The term has become ubiquitous in Internet circles and is often used outside of gaming contexts." The context of the usage is the same: to point out that somebody has been beaten. Rufous 01:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You are incorrect. I provided 2 sources for my statement that it is used in debate in the fashion in which I posted.
 * No. You provided 2 links to a messageboard...not reliable sources.  Please read Avoid neologisms, specifically the section on reliable sources.  It states, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term."
 * As someone who has participated heavily on that particular forum, wouldn't my own experience qualify as a "knowledgable source"? DUH!.
 * You may be a knowledgable source, but you are not a reliable source as far as Wikipedia is concerned.
 * What does it matter if the term is or WAS primarily used in gaming? As I stated earlier, language is constantly evolving. I'm sorry you refuse to recognise the usage as it has evolved but that doesn't make it untrue.
 * Are you seriously asking why the origins of the term matter for this article? /boggle. I don't refuse to recognize the evolved usage.  I refuse the idea that the article needs 5 paragraphs to document how Pwned is used on a specific forum.
 * Can we put this silly debate over sourcing aside now?
 * No. The debate can continue until you actually provide a reliable source. You can link a million times to "The Podium" and it won't make a difference.
 * This is an example of such. Whether YOU happen to agree with my entry or not, you have no right to simply dismiss it without checking the references. THAT is elitist behavior. Perhaps you should check yourself, before assigning labels to others.
 * Please assume good faith. My edits have absolutely nothing to do with my feeling I'm some part of some separate culture.  I would appreciate if you didn't accuse me of having other motives.  And what labels exactly did I assign to anyone?
 * What harm is done by having the usage included?
 * Whether or not it's harmful really isn't important.
 * Again, I refer you to the purpose of Wikipedia. It is to be a COMPREHENSIVE source, not an exclusionary one. Stop playing the "pwned!" game with it. If this were a debate, a SINGLE usage would already confer upon me a "pwned!" over you since I can and have already linked to the usage in current practice. It exists, you lose AND are supporting a known falsehood.
 * I think if you'd take some time to read up on Wikipedia policies, you'd understand why I removed your section. You'd also understand that I haven't been in any danger of being "pwned". (/roll eyes) Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Not everything that exists deserves to be here.  Verifiability, not truth, is what is important.  --Onorem 03:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Pwned. 68.156.179.110 20:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
I noticed a few things that look a lot like the page has been vandalized, so I'm gonna be bold and fix it. ... one of these days, maybe I'll even create an account. XD —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.192.124.97 (talk) 00:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

Nevermind, someone else got to it first. 63.192.124.97 00:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC) the same unsigned user

Lots of vandalism especially on weekends. Just like leet and 1337 and owned. -- ThreeDee912 22:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Welsh Pronunciation
If you look up Crwth, a Welsh instrument, the 'w' is pronounced like 'oo', as in tooth. From this, it can be said that the 'w' is the vowel in the word, and so should be pronounced 'poon'.

161.225.129.111 13:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, if there were some reason to believe that pwn was Welsh. -- Coneslayer

Degrees of pwnage
Was there a particular reason why the section on degrees of pwnage was removed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Heliomance (talk • contribs) 13:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC). >_> there was a gap of about five seconds between me editing and realising I forgot to sign it. Heliomance 13:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it was unsourced and looked purely like original research. --Onorem 13:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Heliomance 13:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts, the whole article is technically original research. While the section as it stood probably wasn't great, a section on how it can be modified to produce extra emphasis would probably be good. Or would that better go on the leet page? Heliomance 20:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree that the whole article is technically original research. I do believe that there is still too much original research in the article. That would indicate that the article needs more cleanup. It would not be an excuse for adding more original research, either here or at leet. --Onorem 13:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The very nature of the subject is such that it is extremely difficult to have it as anything other than original research as there are no citable sources. Personally, I think IAR is appropriate.Heliomance 14:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is difficult to find good sources for the page, but I don't think that means we should ignore rules regarding verifiability and original research. I would personally rather see the entire page deleted then have it opened up for every 1337 gamer to come in and leave their own random interpretations of the term. If the next guy's definition of the degrees of pwnage differ from your version, who's gets to stay?  --Onorem 14:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You have a valid point. In that case I may create a humour page for various leet conjugations and suchlike, and put the old section there as it was amusing. Heliomance 19:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Its from World of Warcraft
In one of the quests a NPC says " Great Job, you pwned him ", It was an error meant to type own instead of pwn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.137.231 (talk • contribs)
 * Can you find a reliable source that agrees that's the origin? --Onorem 00:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt that's the origin of the word.. WoW was released in 2004 and in my experience, the word was in use before that too. Of course, when the word became popular it started to appear in many places.. - Simeon87 12:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Pwn is almost universally agreed to have been around long before WoW. It would still be good to put that example into the article, albeit not as an origin story, if you could take a screenshot of the NPC saying that. Heliomance 14:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

-I agree.

Pwned in other languages
This article is available in Italian, Portuguese and Norweigan. Does that mean that Italians, Portuguese and Norweigans pwn each other too? --Candy-Panda 09:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * English is a fashionable language; hence Italian, Portuguese, and Norwegian gamers with a rudimentary command of English probably adopted this word as fashionable jargon. English gamers use über, a German word, as fashionable jargon, too. As for whether those gamers pwn one another, of course: gaming crosses language barriers, and so do silly words. Rintrah 11:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Explanation
As it stands, the article's expanation of the term is obscure, as it assumes that all readers will know about U.S. adolescent slang. --Mel Etitis ( Talk ) 17:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the term is gamer slang—equally likely to be used by someone from England, Australia, or Canada. Its origin is in own, and is most fervently used in the 1337 vernacular. The former gives it its meaning; the latter gives it a life of its own. It's a pointless word. Little brats use it for their trivial amusement; see the article's edit history for examples. Rintrah 16:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * People need to stop randomly debating this... look, its a lot older than most of you seem to realize, and some of the earlier purported and documented cases are not even from gaming, in fact they are from other internet usages such as IRC. Lets actually stop debating the original use of the word because it won't be found.  Also, lets keep the self serving snide remarks out of this if we will?  Thanks. --  Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 05:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Xbox Live Rumor
Isn't it a rumor that pwn originated as a typo on xbox live?-TheVofSteel
 * Although pinpointing the origin has proven to be difficult, there is no question that the term originated well before xbox live existed. Rumors don't belong here unless they've been reported on by multiple reliable sources. --Onorem 02:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Xbox live???? idiot, everyone knows it came into existence during the Quake era.

There is no need to call people idiots I think it was an honest yet misguided question.

Letter P as rotated cursive letter O
I got the impression somewhere that the p was a 13375p34k corruption of the letter o derived from the resemblance of a cursive letter o that has both a long lead in and a short tail on top and that is then rotated counterclockwise 90 degrees. Mrcaseyj 08:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Somehow I doubt that gamers particularly care about cursive script. Again, unless you can find and cite reliable sources, this is just a rumour and not a very likely one at that. Heliomance 15:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

i know alot of people who prononce it like Pawn, like the chess piece.
yeah the pronce section dosen't say anything about that, and its been a growing proble amungst the nerds at my high school lunch table. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.61.214.72 (talk) 03:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Well, "[pən]" is pretty similar to "pawn" in pronunciation. Admittedly, the IPA symbols don't give very clear indications of what the pronunciations are. Anyone feel like going through the IPA page there and giving perhaps rhyming words or at least real-English phonetic equivalents? Nique talk 03:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. Heliomance 13:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is urban dictionary refrenced?
If Wikipedia does not allow IMDB to be used as a refrence, urban dictionary should probably not be used either. Does anyone else have comments? - Hair chr  m  22:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Pwn came from pawn in chess
Hey

I was told that Pwn came from being check mated by a pawn in chess. This explains why it is used in a taunting manner, since being mated by a pawn is humiliating.

Anyone else heard this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.50.170.14 (talk) 17:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

My friends actually started using the term before I heard of it online. We were playing chess and my friend took my queen with a pawn. We of course had heard of Owned, and when he said I got pawned it kinda stuck as an inside joke. Was funny to see it was more universal than I knew.

122.148.193.244 07:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

PWN Stands For Something
A magazine from way back in time called Phrack World News —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.88.165.151 (talk) 18:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Yes, PWN stands for Phrack World News, and yes, that has been cited. However, there is no appearance of PWN being used as a verb in reference to the publication, as claimed in this Wikipedia article.  So, I have inserted a citation needed" after the offending sentence.  The referenced external link about Master Locks does not support the conclusion that PWN is the origin of "pwn" as a verb, so I have removed it. kostmo 04:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Coincidental similarity!
It has struck me that a Welsh slang term for beating someone up and fighting is 'pwno'. This is obviously not the origin of the term used today, but 'pwned' does indeed sound like an English play on the Welsh word.

Ycymro 21:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

alternate origin of "pwnage"
i was told that pwnage originally referred to a contraction of the words "pure ownage", this may have some relation to the "powerful ownage" contraction suggested earlier.

Pwnd or pwnt?
Would you say pwnd or pwnt? Like "I pwnd you" or "I pwnt you." Or is it pwned? Pwnet? Does anyone know?   Jedi_feline  |  Talk    06:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Often pwned or pwn'd. - Slow Graffiti 17:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

hmm another theory...
It could possibly evolved in part from "debt bondage", if you read that article it talks about "pawnage" and "peonage", aka calling someone a "peon" for not having a backbone. 70.176.230.110 21:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Wiktionary
This article has a clone on Wiktionary (same section titles). Indeed, I think the place for this expression is on Wiktionary, not here. I don't understand why there is this page on Wikipedia. Grasyop ✉ 11:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't delete this!
Pwn, and the synonym owned, doesn't deserve to be deleted. It would be like as if you're into deleting all leetspeak stuff here in Wikipedia. The word, in my opinion, although it's not the one used in proper/formal speech, is notable enough to be in here, so deleting it is unnecessary... Blake Gripling 11:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

PWN IS ON THE 2007 LIST OF BANNED WORDS, NOT 2006. SOMEONE CHANGE THIS NOW.


 * Please don't use ALL CAPS in the discussion boards, dude; and sign your post using four tildes, as in ~.
 * STFU N00B

Language Log
Language Log has a blog entry on the pronunciation of pwn. -- Coneslayer 12:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Other pronunciation
Pee-yond like "peoned". Very appropriate since it refers to how the mighty owns the weak like peons. Amazing that everyone misses this.

Superbad Misquote
Fogell is not referred to as the "anti-pwn" in the movie Superbad. Seth refers to Fogell as the "anti-poon" due to his awkward appearance and nasal voice. It clearly makes more sense than "anti-pwn", as the entire movie revolves around three teenagers and their sexual frustrations.

Aequanimus 01:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)