Talk:Pyrenean Mountain Dog/Archive 1

Best breed
My Great Pyrenees is the best dog I've ever had. 71.19.6.20 16:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Great Pyrenees, as with other dogs, will do exactly what they are bred and trained for. Pyrenean Mountain Dogs were bred to guard the livelyhood and families of the mountain shepards. This did not require a lot of running. However it did require intelligence and a certain amount of independence. Such as recognizing threats and taking whatever action was necessary to neutralize the threat, whether by force or by intercession. I have found my Pyr will most often just get between the protectees (goats usually, sometimes grandkids) and whatever is percieved to be a possible threat. No threats or growling or even confrontation, just gets between them and lies down, situation neutralized. Most intelligent dog I have ever owned(11).

- i doubt it. at least we were able to train our dog so she could roam unchained in our yard without escaping, and she obeyed her master. still a very intelligent and protecting dog
 * A fenced yard is a must with this breed. Unfenced, they will roam. A typical area for a Pyr to consider his domain is anywhere from 5 to 15 square miles.

-I also agree I have had two great Pyrenees' and they both could wander around without a chain without running away.

I have 2 Pyrs and they will be off in a flash if they are outside alone. If they are out with me, they will stay with me just fine. I do agree- a fence is a must. I also wouldn't recommend having 2 of the same sex, a male and a female do best together, otherwise there will usually be tension to see who is dominant. Trust me, I've have lots of experience with that! They are such intelligent dogs as well. I've never had dogs that are so observant, even watching birds fly, mine even watch when the ceiling fan is running! Great dogs, not for eveyone though, they require a lot of grooming, and a lot of patience!


 * Hey all. They are wonderful dogs but please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a forum. Please keep conversations on the talk page limited to discussions about edits and revisions to the article itself. Per WP:TPG, "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." Thanks! croll (talk) 20:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Hauling Artillery?
Can someone reference this? Spain was technically neutral during WWII and France was occupied by the Germans. Why would dogs have been hauling canon around the mountains? Machine guns I can believe - I have seen WWI photos of french and german troops hauling machine guns on small dog drawn carts (German Shepards and St Bernards IIRC). I walked extensively in the Pyrenees in 2006. great, friendly dogs - unless you get near their flock! Benvenuto (talk) 01:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Coat Length
I've run across references that great pyr's are divided into 'Show Lines' and 'Working Dog Lines'. It was suggested that working dog lines have a shorter coat, and show line dogs have a much longer coat. It would be nice to have this added once it is confirmed. Patternbuilder (talk) 03:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you all sure that the pic provided is not that of a Maremma Sheepdog? I know that the two breeds are related, but this dog doesn't look much like my Pyr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.254.186 (talk) 12:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

picking and owning a guardian dog
I owned Maremma / Pyrenees and used it to protect pigs and house. My experience in picking them is waiting for the one that stays away, last one to come out as a pup. The younger you can get them the better, unless they are with the type of animal you will put them with. Things to understand about this bread is they DO NOT like change, if you move pens frequently it confuses them if an animal belongs in a certain place they like to keep them there. We found them to only get pushy if say the horses charged the fence the dogs would bark and run at them to stop the offense also if the pigs came in the yard the dogs used their size to push at the pig barking in the ear accelerating if the animal did not respond, nipping the ear until animal responded appropriately. Our guardian dog was loving and protective of the baby pigs, having as many as 10 babies of assorted sizes sleeping on and around the dog. They like to do a perimeter check daily so walking them on their boundaries is helpful to keeping them home. They can be very intimidating to people because the way they treat wayward animals is how they will treat people who appear to not belong in your property. Eg. when we had to move off the farm we were hesitant to lose our dogs so we had them in a big yard when people would loiter in front of our place they would run over barking put their shoulder against the person pushing until they moved on. This was frightening to people who did not understand the breed. In the end we had to give the dog away to a working farm .We had the same problem with the working retriever dogs that have a purpose do not like being dormant. If you want to have a guardian dog as a pet you MUST spend a lot of time with them initially so they understand their role in your family they guard what they perceive to be their pack so whatever you give them they belong to and they do not transfer owners easily. If they are the right mix with your need you will NEVER find a better dog. Melboden (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melboden (talk • contribs) 16:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC) they are the biggest white dogs in the history of man kind! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.229.70.181 (talk) 23:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The great Pyrenees
I think they need to add the TRUE Character. The Pyrenees dog doesn't sit idle. They like to move about, not "Watch the world go by." They are very protective about their property, but they won't stand up for their owner in a fight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.27.68.247 (talk) 00:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually the one of the Basque terms for them translates to "The doormat dog". Pyrs spend most of their time conserving energy and waiting for something to happen. When an Animal Planet crew came to my sisters ranch to record Pyrs "at work", they had trouble getting anything usable until a passerby came near the fence with a dog. Until then, it was like watching paint dry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.215.219.87 (talk) 23:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. They are by no means inactive dogs but they do conserve energy while remaining on watch. they are definitely not sheep herding dogs, the Pyrennean farmers use other types for this, the GP are strictly guard dogs. PS unsigned contributions count for nothing here please sign your contributions with four tildes (~) Benvenuto (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Recent unreferenced/unsourced changes
Regarding the recent edits to this article, particularly the addition of material without reliable sourcing or references, please see WP:REF and WP:SOURCE - material should not be added to articles unless it can be verified. Without verification of the material that is added to Wikipedia, the content contained within this wonderful encyclopedia degenerates to blog-like opinion pieces rather than a collection of solid, informative articles. As for it being "general knowledge", that is also not allowed on Wikipedia - please see WP:OR. Regarding the information that was added in those edits, I would personally refute the claim that Pyrs need to be "sheared in hot weather". Rather than being the cause of skin problems or increasing the risk of heat stroke, the Pyr's long coat protects them from harm from the sun. Shearing their coat increases the risk of sun burn, heat stroke, skin irritation and general discomfort from sunlight. I own a Pyr, and live in South Australia - the dryest state in the dryest and hottest country on the planet - and would never "shear" her. Clipping, however, can drastically improve their comfort in summer, as can regular grooming and ensuring their coat is clean and unknotted. This is information that has come from both breeders and vets - i.e. people who know what they're talking about. If you can source or reference the "general knowledge" information that was previously added, then by all means re-add it. But please don't add information that is unverified, especially information that is not, as it turns out, general knowledge. ABVS1936 (talk) 08:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC) Completely agree. As a long time Pyr owner, breeder and rescuer (we have had over 200 rescued Pyrs come through our property) I can categorically state that Pyrs don not NEED to be sheared in hot weather. An experiment the I participated in at UC Davis showed the skin temp of a Pyr was cooler than that of a short haired black Lab partially due to the double coat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.118.196.162 (talk) 00:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

-- I agree. I e-mailed the President of the Pyrenean Mountain Dog Club of the UK and he said not to shave / shear them as it protects them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.238.234.25 (talk) 06:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Description
"All white dogs are not preferred by top breeders for many reasons. White dogs in most breedings are less frequent. It's not unusual that breedings that result in a high incidence of all white puppies do not have the required jet black pigment on the nose and eye rims. These breeding lines are therefore, as a rule, not desirable in well-bred stock." This section is not sourced and from my experience, not true. Currently most show rings contain all white or mostly white Pyrenees. The current trended is away from heavy markings. Thoughts on removing this?BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 03:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. It was unsourced, contradictory, and a little bit too opinionated, in my opinion (ha). &mdash; anndelion    &#10059;   07:43, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I concur with your "opinion" lol÷BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 02:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Weight

For the umpteenth time, stop editing the weight section without providing source material. Just because you knew someone that had a Pyrenees that they claimed weighed X lbs, doesn’t mean the dog actually did. . It is extremely common for people to overestimate the weight of Pyrenees due to the coat. Males over 120-130 lbs are generally considered obese, out of standard and have difficulties “doing their job". Pyrenees are designed to be a large but FAST MOVING dog with endurance to cover large territory, and overweight dogs cannot do thisBigWhiteFireDog (talk) 03:15, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

BARKING
It is their job to inform the predators that they are on the job. "The Complete Pyrenees" has an article that describes the shepard as sleeping well at night because he can hear his Pyrenees barking. The bark is not the incesent barking of a back yard dog, but rather he will bark a few times, stop and listen, and go back to sleep. An hour later, he will be in another area of the pasture, bark a few times, stop and listen. If he hears something, he will go chase while barking. If he corners a mountain lion (personal experience here), he will bark and continue to bark until some one comes and handles the situation for him. The Pyrenees is not a back-yard, in-the-city, type of dog. He will drive the neighbors nuts. Even in his sleep, if the Pyrenees hears something, he is likely to bark while still half asleep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.214.103.234 (talk) 16:19, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The Pyrenees is a dog that barks. This is not something that can be trained out of them.

"The Pyrenees is not a back-yard, in-the-city, type of dog." Not true. There are hundreds and hundreds of "in-the-city" Pyrs. We have placed/sold pyrs to people in apartments, condos, detached homes, cities, suburbs and very rural farmsteads.It's a matter of training, conditioning and working with neighbors. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

That is true BWFD, I have a Pyrenees in a townhouse, and while she will bark LOUDLY sometimes, it is more manageable than the small yappy dogs IMO. Although she's also a lot more timid than most Pyrenees, I think. 71.246.202.253 (talk) 03:09, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Caution in using source materiel if you are also not familiar with the breed.
Please use caution when using the Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds [D. Caroline Coilde 2005) as it contains several factual errors and even myths. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 19:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Coilde has a PH.D in veterinary science, and I've never known her to write "factual errors and myths". In fact, the majority of information available agrees with her. -- T K K  bark !  17:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Her educational background is irrelevant in this case. The book cited is unsourced and contains factual errors about Great Pyrenees.75.45.102.114 (talk) 21:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Hot Stop talk-contribs 07:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Great Pyrenees → Pyrenean Mountain Dog – The current title is US-centric, the proposed title makes it clear that we are referring to a breed of dog, the current title could be interpreted as referring to the actual mountains. The Wikipedias in most other European languages have titles similar to the proposed titles. PatGallacher (talk) 00:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose the name change, propose an "also known as". The breed is known in the US and Canada (where the majority of the breed resides) as the Great Pyrenees and no one that I have ever met, nor that has ever commented here has mistaken Great Pyrenees for Pyrenees Mountains. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 17:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support This is a French breed, not an American breed, and the Fédération Cynologique Internationale - the governing canine organization for continental Europe, and by extention France - refers to the breed as the Pyrenean Mountain Dog. -- T K K  bark !  17:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose This is the English Wikipedia, and we should use the most common name in English. My understanding is that in both American and British English, Great Pyrenees is far more common. Google says 10,500,000 results for the current page title, with only 596,000 for the proposed titled, meaning the article would be less findable by readers if we moved it. Steven Walling &bull; talk  00:12, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

General non-breed specific, unsourced advice in a breed specific site
This is in reference to this edit: "Great Pyrenees are quite susceptible to injury when placed in a crate, such as for transportation. Removal of their collars while training to be put in a crate or being kept in a crate has been recommended to avoid serious injury or death"

It's in this series of edits and undo's 21:29, March 18, 2014‎ Donner60 (talk | contribs)‎. . (13,629 bytes) (+80)‎. . (Copy edit to recent addition; presume the meaning has been preserved and entry is accurate; no source at this time but you tube source removed as inherently unreliable) (undo | thank) 20:54, March 18, 2014‎ Kampbyll (talk | contribs)‎. . (13,549 bytes) (+160)‎. . (Undid revision 600257717 by Fraggle81 (talk)) (undo | thank) 20:38, March 18, 2014‎ Fraggle81 (talk | contribs)‎. . (13,389 bytes) (-160)‎. . (Reverted 1 good faith edit by Kampbyll using STiki) (undo | thank) 20:28, March 18, 2014‎ Kampbyll (talk | contribs)‎. . (13,549 bytes) (+160)‎. . (→‎Upkeep) (undo | thank) 19:25, March 18, 2014‎ Donner60 (talk | contribs)‎. . (13,389 bytes) (-251)‎. . (Reverted 1 edit by 68.70.3.116 (talk): Wikipedia is not an advice site; improper link. (TW)) (undo | thank) 19:19, March 18, 2014‎ 68.70.3.116 (talk)‎. . (13,640 bytes) (+251)‎. . (→‎Upkeep) (undo)

This keeps coming back because someone, possibly one of the editors or a friend just had this happen to their dog. I know this because one of these people posted it to several Facebook Pyr groups shortly after it happened to their Great Pyrenees then it showed up here.

Several points. 1) This is not common at all. In fact, in 50 years in dogs, this is the first time I have heard of this particular accident involving a crate and I am around crated dogs a lot both in rescue and in the show world. Transporting a dog without a collar is not good practice for several reasons. 2) The line "Great Pyrenees are quite susceptible to injury when placed in a crate" is nowhere even close to true AND is unsourced. GP's are no more or no less susceptible to any kennel/confinement injury then any other dog and again, crate injuries are rare. Yes the single accident was a tragedy but this paragraph has no place here and I plan on removing it unless good reason can be shown otherwise BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2014 (UTC)BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 03:34, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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What domesticated?
Why is this article using "When domesticated..." ? All dogs are domesticated per definition, they are not wild animals. Hafspajen (talk) 23:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I changed that to say, "when kept as house pets". Pyrenees kept on pasture generally shed their hair naturally by rubbing against bushes and being licked by goats and sheep. White Arabian mare (talk) 23:00, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

When did that entry occur as that isn't true in the slightest? Goats and sheep do not lick dogs. Need to look at that source for sure BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 23:50, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know who added that statement in the article originally, but goats and sheep will lick their guardian dogs, sleep next to them, and climb on them (when the goats/sheep are young and small, the dogs don't seem to care, though they do protest if an adult rears up or gets too close.) I guess most people haven't seen it because they haven't been around goats. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 21:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I have been around Pyrenees and other LGDs pretty much my entire life, raised sheep, and own goats. They do not lick the dogs nor have I seen this ever or know anyone else that has. Source please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigWhiteFireDog (talk • contribs) 16:32, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
 * This video shows a goat licking a dog. It's not a Pyrenees, obviously, but the goat and dog seem friendly towards each other. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 21:27, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

That is unusual behavior and if you notice, it really isn't "licking" of the kind that would remove hair. There is something else going on. comment added by BigWhiteFireDog (talk)

What kind of training is needed for a Great Pyrenees
My cousin has a two-year-old Great Pyrenees female named Nanny and I am going to help train her but can you train a great pier knees just like any other obedience training particularly good canine citizen test training. Do I just do the same training? LittleAndy12345 (talk) 16:29, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but Wikipedia talk is not the place for that question. you can go to my profile and using the left-hand column, email me and I will help you. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 18:02, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Category: Rare dog breed
Where I come from these are not at all common. Of course, in certain counties of Wyoming (in sheep or cattle country) that might be entirely different. I don't know if there is any professional or editorial consensus on how rare is "rare." Reasonable minds could differ. That being said, being over inclusive in categories is no great sin. Conversely, being under inclusive is, IMO. So I would err on the side of inclusion, rather than exclusion. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 21:53, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I know I'm in a fairly rural area in the South and they are pretty popular (I have two), but I doubt they are common in urban areas because of the size issue of a big dog in a tiny house/apartment. I also don't know about other countries, except France. So I'd lean toward keeping the category unless we can prove they aren't rare. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 23:07, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * According to the American Kennel Club the breed currently ranks 67th for registrations. Of course, that does not speak to world-wide "rarity", and I also know that these rankings change over time. Breeds fall in and out of favor; popularity ebbs and flows like the tide.  Great Pyrenees AKC. In part the size of the breeeding population could be a factor.  See Rare breed (agriculture). 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 12:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Part of the issue is that there is no standard for being classified as "Rare" nor is there a valid way to know popularity as AKC registrations and dog show participation are falling. In the US west, they are now more likely to be working dogs and we are seeing more Pyr-Turkish LGD crosses for sale and in rescue so does that count also?BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 16:37, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Major POV Problems
One comes away from this article thinking they have read a loving tribute to GPs written by and for those that admire them. That's not a good sign. Wikipedia articles should present objective facts, rather than extol this breed for its elegance or any other virtue some might ascribe to it. This misguided agenda has found its way onto this discussion page as well. Wikipedia is not a public forum. Discussion pages are meant specifically/exclusively to address issues with articles. That this breed of dog might be someone's favorite is completely irrelevant where writing/revising an objective encyclopedia article is concerned. If some of you would like to strike up a conversation about your personal experiences with dogs, please do it elsewhere. Mdleonar (talk) 16:20, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It appears that most of the content of the "Description" section was improperly borrowed from some breeder's guide, as that is what it reads (and is improperly formatted) like. In fact, a Google search turns up these pages: AKC.org, PyrNet.org, pet-expo.com, StarMountPyrs.com, most of appear to be extracts from A publication of the Great Pyrenees Club of America, rev. 1992. Complete outright removal might be called for. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I have never seen an "objective" description of a dog breed anywhere. If you get to know a dog well enough to write about the breed, you've already fallen in love with the dog. To quote Dale Carnegie's book "How To Win Friends and Influence People," a dog's job is to love his or her owner. Providing facts such as size, history of the breed, etc., is fine but readers also want to know the behavior and temperament of a breed. For example, every breed is described as "intelligent." Well, there are different types of intelligence! Golden retrievers can be trained to do tricks that no Great Pyrenees would have interest in, but my Great Pyrenees has better social intelligence than a Golden retriever. And if I say that Great Pyrenees are one of the best companion animals, it's true, although there are different types of companions. For a backcountry skier a Great Pyrenees is the best choice of companion animal because if you're buried in an avalanche your Great Pyrenees will dig you out and save your life. For a little old lady who doesn't get out much a toy poodle might be a better choice.--TDKehoe (talk) 19:08, 1 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Then appropriate descriptions would be that "the GP is able to pick up on social cues..." and that "it is a suitable companion for a xyz BECAUSE...", not the existing description which reminds me of Bella describing Edward. Also, the temperament section suggests that every GP is male. The Gait section is a bit too flowery and the Temperament section contains very little information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.116.44.98 (talk) 06:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Have attempted to improve quality of article by removing a lot of the information which reads as if it has been copied verbatim from a dog breeder's website. Resolved as much useable info as I could into a number of paragraphs explaining dog's physical appearance.  Ditched everything else, a bit slash and burn, but much of what was there was a very technical description of how these dogs should be judged in competitions, and was completely unsuitable for a wiki article. Article could now do with someone with some knowledge of the breed's history, temperament and current workplace uses taking a look to see if there's something they can add. Lordofmarzipan (talk) 21:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree! Nice work :) 121.214.48.59 (talk) 06:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Not too bad at all. Thank you. Only issue I have is with the statement on here "someone with some knowledge of the breed's history, temperament and current workplace uses taking a look to see if there's something they can add" as knowing a great deal about the breed, etc, and being able to reference it are two different things. One reason I have not made major edits is that the common reference material is often incorrect but going off of years of experience is prohibited. I made some minor deletions but will do some digging through various publications to find sources for further changes (if any are needed) BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 21:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * @Lordofmarzipan @BigWhiteFireDog I have some issues with the History section. I am adding a comment under a new talk section for History. But for this section, regarding temperament, it is difficult to describe temperament in ANY breed, due to the extreme variation amongst individuals in instinct, and in the nurture of those instinctual drives. A prime example is the discussion on this page of the suitability of GP for urban or suburban life. As a breed, they are not particularly well suited to small lots with no livestock to protect. However, many GP, and today, perhaps even most, are living happily in exactly those circumstances. Mbuell72 (talk) 19:38, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

History
I will have to research this, but I am moderately confident that the History section is mistaken on at least two points. And, misleading or romanticized in general. In other words, it is more like a "fan" article than a rational statement of verified fact. In particular, the reference to GP being introduced to Australia at a farm in Hamilton is, I believe, entirely mistaken. I think someone confused two breeds of dogs when writing this. Regardless, both that assertion - and the assertion that Lafayette brought an example of the dogs to the US in the 1800's - are undocumented.

Additionally, I believe the whole history section to be highly romanticized. Although I do have to say this is very typical of "breed histories" you can find today, online, at least. I would edit, but at this point in time, I lack sufficient knowledge to do so. That may change. As I am hoping for some discussion from other editors of this or other dog sections, I will explain myself further.

Start at the beginning of the History section. Quote: The Great Pyrenees is a very old breed that has been used for hundreds of years by shepherds. End quote. I find this assertion essentially inaccurate, as "breeds" of dogs were unknown before the 1800's. Dogs were varieties of types, kept for function, not appearance. I believe my point is validated in the 6th paragraph. Quote: "In the mid-19th century, the breed was not homogenized. . ."

At least one of the references used (#12) is to another website (greatpyrenees.com), which website then uses primary references to establish it's claims. The references should be primary in this case. Much of the history here appears to be, lifted from that website. On the other hand, that other website, uses another primary reference from the early 1800's, that more clearly establishes a Pyrenean type of shepherd's dog that very much describes a dog similar to the GP we know today (from the "This and That" page on that site).

Worth noting is that the provenance of the anecdote referring to the 1675 adoption of a GP by the Dauphin is not clear. Where did this story come from? Was it the 18th century writings of M. Byasson, or was it from somewhere else?

Regardless, what we know is that the Great Pyrenees breed of dogs is descended from the shepherd's dogs that were used in the Pyrenean mountains. These types of dogs were selected and known for their livestock guardian abilities.

As things stand, I find the history section for the Great Pyrenees at dogtime.com to be more rational, and more "encyclopedia-like". Mbuell72 (talk) 21:09, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I have no idea where most of it came from, but the thing about Lafayette is in my copy of the AKC Dog Book. Mine is older, so I don't know if it's in the newer editions, but I could cite the Pyrenees chapter in the book if needed. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 22:46, 7 February 2018 (UTC)