Talk:Qays–Yaman war (793–796)

Naming
I'm not sure the current naming "civil war" is sourced, and more importantly it doesn't correspond to the situation in the 8th century Bilad a-Sham province of the Caliphate (now Palestine, Israel and Jordan). It was a relatively desolate area of the Islamic Empire under Abbasids with marginal tribal clashes of Abbasid-affiliated and less affiliated Arab tribal elements ongoing since 793 (often named as "war"). Nevertheless, "civil war" was certainly not corresponding to the situation, as it had no effect on neither the entire Sham province nor the Caliphate, so there was no "civil war". Mudhari Revolt is perhaps much more suitable as a page name.GreyShark (dibra) 20:35, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree that civil war may not be the best option, considering that other than the Palestine Exploration Fund, the sources don't use that term. Not to get too off-topic, but looking back through the sources, it appears that I confused this tribal war with a conflict in the region in 788 that was described by Moshe Gil as a "civil war". In fact, the current content in this article about the devastation of Bayt Jibrin, Gaza, etc. seems to have occurred in the 788 conflict, which was apparently related to an anti-Abbasid uprising by a Transjordanian Jew named Yahya ibn Irmiya and its suppression by the Abbasids. The destruction and massacres by Bedouin marauders at the monasteries also appears to have occurred in 797 (Linder, pp. 24-25). The latter may have been directly or indirectly related to the 796 inter-tribal conflict. I will sort out all of this here and in the related articles shortly.
 * As for your proposed name, unfortunately, when I added that name to the article I did not cite the source I used for "Mudhari Revolt", and I can't find its usage anywhere. It wouldn't make sense to replace one OR title with another. However, looking through the sources, it seems that the proper name for the 793/796 conflict was "War of the Watermelon" or "Watermelon War" (Levy-Rubin, p. 65; Linder, pp. 22, 25). Gil (p. 283) simply refers to it as the "war of the tribes", but points out that it was apparently started after a northern tribesman stole watermelons from a southern tribesman. I think we should name it what the majority of the sources refer to it as. Since there's already an article called Watermelon War, we could distinguish this article's new title with "(793-796)". Thoughts? --Al Ameer (talk) 23:29, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * thank you for the detailed reply! I agree with most of your points. If "Mudhari revolt" is not sourced, perhaps we can go also with the generic "Qaysi-Yamani War (793-796)"; "Watermelon War (793-796)" is plausible, though less preferrable on my behalf as it fails to make a proper description of the conflict. Regarding 788 rebellion by Yahya ibn Irmiya and 797 Bedouin raids - perhaps new articles to be created. Let's collaborate on this.GreyShark (dibra) 09:11, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with "Qaysi-Yamani war (793–796)". We could keep "War of the Watermelon" as an alternative name. I'm not yet sure if we should create a separate article on the 797 destruction, because the sources in the article appear to be conflicted on the dates of these events (with Levy-Rubin and Kedar saying the Euthymius and Chariton monasteries were attacked before "finally the suffocation of twenty of the monks of Mar Saba on 20 March 796", while Linder says the attack on Mar Saba occurred on 19 March 797 after the attacks on the other two monasteries). Until we could clear this up, I think the attacks on the monasteries should remain in the "Aftermath" section of the article or another section since all the sources seem to be relating the tribal war with the attacks. As for the revolt of Yahya ibn Irmiya, I had never heard of the event until now. One shortcoming with writing about Irmiya's revolt, unfortunately, is that according to Gil, information about it is limited to the "somewhat detailed account" of the historian Ibn Asakir, with no other sources. Apparently, a Christian source describing the destruction of Bayt Jibrin, Ascalon and Gaza "as a result of the civil war in 788" seems to corroborate Ibn Asakir's account (by the way, I'm still not sure if the destruction of those cities occurred in 788 or during the 793-96 wars). Wish there were more sources for these events. As of now, the only secondary source I have found that deals with Irmiya's revolt is Moshe Gil. If you or anyone could find any RS that deal with these events, I think we could start an article about Yahya ibn Irmiya or his revolt. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, i'm moving then the article to the new name with your consent per WP:GF, since it doesn't seem that there are any more editors interested in this topic. Keeping all else as discussed. Will check on more sources on this period in the region.GreyShark (dibra) 19:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)