Talk:Quantity surveyor

Comments
Why on earth has the entire entry been revised? The articles were just fine! It could have been merged or amended not deleted and replaced. I now have no idea what a QS really does, this whole page is now so vague. Where does a QS work? Whom does one work for? Does one work on space missions or for the military? I would suggest that the large majority of people visiting this page are trying to find out exactly what a QS does and their potential roles within company's. Possible due to considering pursuing it has a profession. How does one even become a QS? It fails at even the most basic of level. It is presented in a way that suggests that all QS's are independent (a contractor or work for a firm) and offer their services. How about QS's that works for a Contractor on a salary for example? Future services expected? QS's are already performing over half of these services! Is there a hidden agenda here?

--Observationmachine3000 (talk) 02:25, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

The Quantity surveying article seemed to be fine. Since the article to include about post contract aswell, which QS does. Post contract: ( Following are the involvements for post contract ) 1. Appointing the sub vendors / GC for projects 2. Vendor management 3. Site monitoring 4. Site measurements 5. Billing 6. Certifications

The Quantity Surveying article seemed fine to me. No need to clean up - very informative —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.60.206 (talk) 17:59, 18 January 2007

Quantity Surveyor
References on this page are biased towards the UK. The profession today is not as obscure as it once was which is evidenced by the international use of quantity surveyors. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors while a UK based organization has significant international membership and is promoted as a "global" organization.

The list of external links is good and generally refers to Professional Associations representing quantity surveyors in various countries around the world.

The "Pop Culture" section while somewhat amusing is of no relevance to understanding what a quantity surveyor is or what one does.

121.208.81.7 09:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The article introduces Private Quantity Surveyor then doesn't say anything about it. It then talks about Consultant Quantity Surveyor - is this the same thing?
 * Yes, but it would more commonly be "Professional" than "Private". --DavidCane (talk) 23:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

 * The following is an archived merge discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The consensus was not to merge.

Oppose: Whilst a Cost Engineer and a Quantity Surveyor have much the same role (estimating and valuing construction work), the two articles should not be merged. The Cost Engineering article is about the process, and the QS article is about the particular history of the Quantity Surveyor. Cost Engineering is just one of the activities that QSs undertaken.

The Cost Engineering article does need to be rewritten in a less theoretical way and should be widened to remove the focus on AACE International.--DavidCane (talk) 23:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC) Oppose: For the reasons stated above; cost engineering is a task undertaken by the quantity surveyor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.203.108 (talk) 19:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC) Oppose - Although thought should be given with a merger to/with Building estimator. Exit2DOS2000  •T•C•  04:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The Institution of Civil Engineering Surveyors (ICES) focusses purely on advancing the art and science of civil engineering surveying, which includes education, training and membership for Quantity Surveyors (Commercial Managers) and surveyors working in the geospatial field (Geospatial Engineers). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.206.27.163 (talk) 19:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that this merge proposal can be closed now as there's been three opposes since it opened nine months ago and no supports.--DavidCane (talk) 00:16, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

= What is a "Cost Engineer" anyway? =

Looking to the Merriam Webster's 3rd International Unabridged Dictionary, I find the definition of "Cost" in this context to be " an item of outlay incurred in the operation of a business enterprise (as for the purchase of raw materials, labor, services, supplies) including depreciation and amortization of capital assets — and I find the definition of "Engineer" (again in context) to be a person who is trained in or follows as a calling or profession a branch of engineering (as civil, military, electrical, mining, structural, or sanitary engineering) —  in some jurisdictions legally restricted in technical use to a person who has completed a prescribed course of study and complied with requirements concerning registration or licensing OR  a person who is trained or skilled in the technicalities of some field (as sociology or insurance) not usually considered to fall within the scope of engineering and who is engaged in using such training or skill in the solution of technical problems

Given that cost estimating and associated responsibilities (scheduling, earned value, progress reporting et al) is generally not considered to be a branch of engineering, but is most often recognized as being a subset of "project management" (reference AACE's TCM Framework and PMBoK Guide) and given Project Management is NOT a profession (Zwerman et al, 2004, Giammalvo, 2007)I think it safe to eliminate the classical use of the term "Engineer" in relation to costs. Which leaves us the second definition of "engineer".

To combine the two definitions to be consistent with standard use of the (American) English language, we have a person who is trained or skilled in the identification and quantification of an outlay incurred in the operation of a business enterprise (as for the purchase of raw materials, labor, services, supplies) including depreciation and amortization of capital assets not usually considered to fall within the scope of engineering and who is engaged in using such training or skill in the solution of technical problems.

Based on the restatement of "Cost + Engineer" grounded upon the two dictionary definitions, I find using the term "Cost Engineer" to be redundant with other terms (quantity surveyor, cost estimator) which better and (IMPO) define the functions normally associated with the subset of project management normally referred to as "project control" (or project management office- PMO) more accurately than using the term "Cost Engineer".

I suspect the original purpose of the founders of AACE (and the global parallel organization, the International Cost Engineering Council (ICEC) was to try to "claim" cost estimating and related functions (Project Controls? Scheduling/Programming?) as "turf" of the engineers. (See Andrew Abbott for more on this)

Bottom line- I think the term "cost engineer" should not be included in Wikipedia on the grounds it does not fairly or accurately describe anything more than a job title within some organizations.

Projectdoctor (talk) 07:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Cost Engineering well established
We understand that there is a school of thought that Cost Engineering, Quantity Surveying or any other collection of varied skills is not a "profession" ala law, medicine etc.; however the idea that cost engineering is just a job title that is unworthy of an encyclopedia article is completely off base. Cost Engineering is also not a subset of PM; the TCM reference clearly delineates that it is not. CE is a unique field of practice with a common syntax, an integrated methodology, and with representative bodies around the world, AACE being a prominent one, and ICEC being an overarching association of associations. One of the newest formed, the China Cost Engineering group, includes over 70,000 members. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkhcanoe (talk • contribs) 13:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi JKHcanoe, While I can understand and appreciate the emotional nature of this topic, let's put the emotions aside and focus on the facts.

1) The "bible" or foundation of the cost engineering is Jelen's (and Humphrey's) "Cost and Optimization Engineering, 3rd Edition. http://www.amazon.com/Jelens-Optimization-Engineering-Kenneth-Humphreys/dp/0070536465

2) Essentially, "cost engineering" is based more or less around a single academic course, often found in Civil, Industrial and Process Engineering- "Engineering Economics". (See Engineering Economy, 14th Edition, by Sullivan, Wicks & Koeling; or similar titles by Blank, Tarquin, Eschenbach, Thuesen and Fabrycky)

3) Having been a member of AACE since the late 80's/early 90's, the membership in the organization has remained more or less stagnant at 6,000 for the past 18 years.

4) There are ~6,000 AACE members and lets assume they are all from the USA (which they are not, but let's make that assumption to make the calculations simple.) There are what, 290,000,000 million people in America? So that makes what, 0.002% of the population practice cost engineering? And you claim there are 70,000 Chinese cost engineers, out of a population of 1.6 billion. So that makes 0.004%.

If you are willing to accept that cost engineering is nothing more than applied engineering economics combined with certain aspects of project management,(i.e. CPM scheduling; Earned Value; Risk etc) and if there are fewer than 0.005% of the population who practice what is known as "cost engineering", then what factual argument can you put forward which justifies trying to establish cost engineering as anything more than a job title?

BR, Dr. PDG, from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.115.117 (talk) 05:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This is something like Institute of Quantity Surveyors Sri Lanka. Their website indicates that the membership is 75 in 2009. (students are 575 in numbers). Sri lankan population is over 2 million. Accordingly the QSs in Sri Lanka is only 0.0038%.

But this is not the reality. Thousands of Sri Lankan QSs are working in Middle East. Most of them are in professional levels. Those QSs are not accounted in IQSSL records.

I think this is common for the entire world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.43.213.97 (talk) 08:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Unsigned, I am not sure what your point is. My question was not about the number of Quantity Surveyors, (which has been established as a profession through the Royal Institute Chartering process) My concern was that the term "cost engineer" because it has no rational basis in the English language AND it does not have the same recognition that Quantity Surveyor has around the world, that AACE drop the name Cost Engineer and adopt instead, Quantity Surveyor, or, if they are unwilling to change the name, at least recognize and accept that what we (cost engineers) do is substantially the same as those tasks performed by QS. Given RICS has recognized the CCE as being equivalent to being a RICS member, (mutual reciprocity) lends even more support to my argument that cost engineer should be merged with QS.

BR, Dr. Paul Giammalvo, Jakarta, Indonesia Dr PDG (talk) 14:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Notable QSs
I've removed the pop list of QSs from the main article - it of very tertiary interest. The list might have some validity if it was a list of quantity surveyors who were notable for developments in the field etc. but as it's claimed all these people are not notable for their QS work I can't find a strong justification for leaving it in. I've removed it to see what happens to the consensus on this and am copying it here for reference for now. --Joopercoopers (talk) 00:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a list of individuals that trained, apprenticed, worked or qualified as Quantity Surveyors.


 * Nasir Ahmad el-Rufai Nigerian politician
 * Ryan Waterson Scottish quantity surveying personality famous for his gold shirt on Loud Shirt Day — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.1.42.15 (talk) 23:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A. T. Babbs South Africian preacher
 * Adetona Gabriel Balogun First president of the Nigerian Institute of Quantity Surveyors.
 * Jon Bass footballer
 * Graham Beecroft radio personality
 * Stuart Boardley footballer
 * Paddy Bradley Gaelic footballer
 * Eric Broadley automobile designer
 * David Byng footballer
 * Alexander Cordell writer
 * David Scott Cowper yachtsman
 * Hugh Coveney Fine Gael politician
 * Colin Eglin South Africian politician
 * Asha Gill media
 * Bukar Ibrahim Nigerian politician
 * Roger Landes Military Cross
 * John Lymington writer
 * Nick McCabe lead guitarist
 * Fulton Mackay actor
 * Aliu Mahama Vice-President of Ghana
 * George Martin muscian
 * Edward Morrow Anglican priest
 * Adamu Mu'azu Nigerian politician
 * Charles Tilleard Natusch New Zealand architect and quantity surveyor
 * Bill Paterson actor
 * Phil Redmond screenwriter.
 * Jean Roy Canadian politician
 * Iain Russell footballer
 * Philip Welsford Richmond Russell Bishop of Natal.
 * Edward Skoyles researcher into tendering and building waste
 * Oliver Stonor writer
 * Neil Turner Labour MP
 * Blair Anderson Wark Victoria Cross
 * Niall McNulty Gealic footballer

I propose it is reinstated.
 * "very tertiary interest". Of tertiary interest to whom? If you are a QS training to be one, or thinking about QS as a career you might be well interested in knowing who have been fellow QSs.
 * Need for list. It is reasonable that every profession contains a list of people associated with it. The nature of QS as a profession is that it does not create the notable people found say in architecture or civil engineering. The present list is not ideal but is not uniformative. Indeed I suspect it is the one bit of the article which readers remember afterwards.
 * Similar lists are widespread on Wikipedia--lists of people linked by apparently tertiary aspects such as dying of the same medical condition, growing up in the same place or going to the same school, college or univeristy are widespread. Indeed, it is a list in effect of "QS alumni". Of course, ideally, one would want a list of QSs that are notable for being QSs, but the nature of the profession is that such people are few unlike in civil engineering or architecture.
 * Throwing the baby out with the bathwater. At least three of the list are notable for being QSs and deleting the list not only removes them but also the opportunity of further additions in the future as the wikipedia content on QSs is improved. Moreover a list merely of three individuals is insufficient for a proper list. In time this may change and the selection criteria can be tightened but you have to have a beginning from which such things can start.--LOUCHAN (talk) 09:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Another Pop culture reference
Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw mentions quantity surveying at the end of his review of Mass Effect 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.73.64.160 (talk) 05:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Gutted
I've gutted this entry, removing large swathes of copyvio text taken verbatim from Quantity Surveyor's Pocket Book and Willis's Practice and Procedure for the Quantity Surveyor. It's now pretty bare bones and lacking some context, so it needs work. I opted not to revert to an earlier version, since copyvio (from different sources) appeared to be present there are well. Hairhorn (talk) 00:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)