Talk:Quatuor pour la fin du temps

For the end of time
I recently read a book entitled "For the end of time" which debunks a lot of myths concerning this piece. For example, according to Messiaen's own accounts, the premiere at Stalag VIII A occured before an audience of several thousand, but according to eyewitness accounts, the building housed only about 400. Apparently, Messiaen had a penchant for embellishment.

I'm going to have to grab a hold of it again, as it has been a while since I've read it. Until then, I would highly recommend it to anyone out there interested in the piece.

--bleh fu talk fu  13:44, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Spinoza1111 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)This rage to "debunk"...how tiresome.

Spinoza1111 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Perhaps there was standing room only as prisoners of war, Nazi guards, and local civilians crowded into the room to hear something other than the crash of bombs.

Spinoza1111 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)This rage to "debunk" is essentially the spirit abroad which is destroying Lebanon while the President of the United States snarfs Cheez Doodles.

Spinoza1111 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Please don't presume to read one goddamn book and believe yourself demythologized.

Spinoza1111 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)The illusion is that you can be in a space free of myth.

Spinoza1111 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)What you have posted is really revelatory only of some sort of Oedipal issue with high Modernism.

Spinoza1111 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Furthermore, a penchant for embellishment is a good thing in a musician.

Um....

Edits for style & formatting
I made some (mostly non-substantial) edits (diff): I hope all these seem sensible / helpful. &mdash; Turangalila talk
 * Obviously from the diffs, I did some formatting stuff, folded the score into the references sect., & added a ref & some external links.
 * I moved info on the instrumentation & duration up to the lead. I think that's the standard per WPClassical Music.  (if it's not it should be :-) ).
 * I made some other edits for issues with: bible citations; wikifying; confomity to WP:STYLE & the music sub-guide; clarity; repetitiveness; & consistency of presentation--esp. in the "Structure" section.

Structure section
The "Structure" section still bothers me quite a bit; particularly the prose descriptions (the parts I've left un-bolded). There's the claim at the bottom that "movement descriptions are translated from the score," but it's unclear whether this just refers to titles & instrumentation, or all the other stuff too. I don't have access to the score currently, but I doubt it would contain text like
 * "...this "stillness" in the piece is not only to freely interpret the "sadness" of the abyss that is "Time", but also to enforce Messiaen's breakdown of the listener's personal feeling and interpretation of musical pulse."

I've certainly never seen a score with that kind of text, except maybe a Norton Critical Score...I can't figure out whether these descriptions are quotes from Messiaen himself, from a commentator like Rischin or Pople, or just the rhapsodic opinings of a WP editor...or (most likely) some hodgepodge of all three? If it's quoted it really needs to be cited.

The section has some valuable info, but as a whole it has the whiff of either POV/OR or a copyright violation. I don't currently have access to the sources in question, so could somebody with such access have a look and see what needs to be cited/rewritten/deleted? Thanks &mdash; Turangalila talk 08:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

English title
The primary title of this work in the English WP should be "Quartet for the End of Time", with a redirect to the original French title. Not the other way around. No? -- Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   01:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Cello missing a string?
Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read about it, but apparently the cello for the (prison camp) premiere was missing a string, and Messiaen wrote the cello part so it can be performed on a "three-string" cello? Is that true? Notable? -- megA (talk) 22:16, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

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I think this article is wrong about the link to Fête des belles eaux
I'm not a wikipedia editor and I don't know how all this stuff works. Just some randomer trying to help.

What I can tell you, however, is that "Louange à l'Éternité de Jésus" is not a rearrangement of "L'eau" from Fête des belles eaux. It is actually a (very blatant) rearrangement of Oraison, a different piece for Martenot.

I just noticed this from listening, I hope it helps. Also feel free to ignore me if there's a reason I'm wrong or a source that explains this link or something.80.189.249.76 (talk) 06:48, 25 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Hello and thanks for taking the time to write your comment. I am by no means a Messiaen expert, but I am pretty sure Oraison is just another name for that movement from Fête des belles eaux, in which case you are correct and so is the article. I note that there is no reference to support the statement about the arrangement, a statement that is made repeatedly in several articles, including ones in French. A solid, scholarly reference would be highly desirable. jmsofia (talk) 16:09, 25 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Hello again. I listened further and it appears you are correct. I was thrown off as the Fête des belles eaux version has an extra section at the start. This would explain the lack of information I was able to find on Oraison. Apologies for the bother and many thanks for your response. 80.189.249.76 (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2021 (UTC)