Talk:Quebec diaspora

Old discussion
--Soulscanner 10:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC) The second exodus article is not neutral at all.

I reinserted the very relevant text on the Second Exodus that was removed by: User:Mathieugp 06:50, February 1, 2007 - Note the text is based, without copyright infringment, on the information from the Government of Canada's CBC News website as seen in the references provided. Phinius T2 17:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This is totally ridiculous. There is no "first" and "second" Quebec exodus. You are literally making something up. These are two different phenomenons. In the worst case, there should be a disambiguation page. Better would be to properly name what some partisan media have named the "Anglo Exodus".


 * The subject of the article is the Quebec diaspora, created by the exodus of the 1840-1930 period. This is a diaspora because the said migrating population left Quebec, Canada for New England, United States.


 * The Canadians who, in the 1960s-1980s period, moved from one province (Quebec, Maritime provinces, Saskatchewan) of what they considered their country to another booming province (Ontario and Alberta) of what they also consider their country are not a diaspora. That would be the first diaspora in the world that does not experience integration into a new, foreign society.
 * The sentence "according to Statistics Canada (2003), since 1971 saw a drop of 599,000 of those Quebecers whose mother tongue was English. [4]" is pure lie. As I pointed out in this talk page, the Website of the CBC contains a factual mistake on this. In the said talk page, I wrote "The CBC source contains a factually wrong statement which Phinius T2 repeats in this article. It says "The same stats show that the population of those whose mother tongue is English has dropped from 789,000 in 1971 to 190,000 in 1996." That is such bad journalism it's not even funny. Anyone can see for themselves on StatsCan that the number of Quebecers who claimed English as mother in 1996 was 614 372 and 557 040 in 2001. Talk about misinformation!" This factual error remains a factual error today.


 * The subject of the "exodus" of Quebecers to Ontario, in the 1960s-1980s period, in a great number English-speaking, deserves to be fully covered in its own article. The English-speaking Quebecer article already contains the beginning of an article on this but it is only showing a part of it. The stats on the interprovincial migrations (in and out) for all Quebec residents, Francophones, Anglophones and Allophones, by home language and native language are available on line here: http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/ressources/bibliotheque/sociolinguistique/oqlf_faslin_01_f_20050519.pdf
 * The can probably be manually compiled from the Website of Statistics Canada as well. -- Mathieugp 23:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved anglophone exodus to an anglophone exodus page. Moved title back to French-Canadian diaspora to avoid this kind of confusion and because referenced source clearly refers to French-Canadian emigration to New England; emigration happened in Ontario too!--Soulscanner 10:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. The intended subject was that of the Quebec exodus, which of course was in the majority the fact of the Franco majority. The phenomenon of course aftected all the population of Quebec. Most of the literature focuses on francophones and was written by francophones. The stats are for all Quebecers who left, not just francophones (there was no Canadian census asking for mother tongue of course).
 * 2. The references I added were in English and used the expression "French Canadian". Most of the recent French language works speak of the émigration québécoise, the diaspora québécoise :
 * Yolande Lavoie, L’Émigration des Québécois aux États-Unis de 1840 à 1930, Québec, 1981
 * 3. When properly translated, diaspora québécoise gives Quebec diaspora :
 * Franco-Americans, in The Canadian Encyclopedia
 * 4. Indeed, the emigration happened in Ontario too. The current Franco-Ontarian population of half a million was constituted by the emigrations of Franco-Quebecers to Ontario during that time. Ontario was also a transit destination, i.e., from Quebec to Ontario, then from Ontario to New England. There was also a strong movement (called "the shuttle" in Franco-American culture) back an forth between Quebec and New England. The father of my grand-father was born in the United States and emigrated to Quebec.
 * 5. The focus on strictly Francophones was not the intended subject. Hard banned User:A. Lafontaine seems to be the one who moved the article from Quebec diaspora to Quebec emigration which lead to the confusion. We should actually rename back to Quebec diaspora. -- Mathieugp 03:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * He shouldn't be making unilateral moves like that in the first place, especially in light of his strong POV and the sensitivity of naming issues. Laval 07:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Unwarranted tagging
User:Boffob had inserted a "weasel" tag without explanation which I removed. He immediately inserted a "story" tag, again without giving an explantion. This is his 'opinion which I disagree with and his explantion is required here. D. C. Thomas 21:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I did give an explanation in my edit summary. From the "had had roots for centuries" to the "economic powerhouse", the "so-called allophone", the entry is overly poetic, sounds emotionally involved and is not neutral. It is a tone issue mostly, a bit too lyrical towards the anglophone inhabitants. It's an inevitable issue with historical/political articles relating to Quebec, because a number of editors from either perspective try to insert, sometimes subliminally, their own POV (painting their own side as victims while portraying the opposing side as abusing their power, sometimes through weasel words).--Boffob 22:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Your explanation is not an explanation but a personal opinion without foundation that is not acceptable in Wikipedia. The use of "had had roots for centuries" and "economic powerhouse" are absolute facts. Appending "so-called" to Allophone is quite proper because it is a contrived word by the Quebec French-language media stemming from the debates and public demonstrations over Bill 22 and originally was directed at the vociferous opponents to the proposed Law in the Italian-Canadian population, particularly in St. Leonard. Over the years this contrived expression evolved to a lumping together of a multitude of ethnic groups as all being "Allophone". Many people find that distasteful and in fact it is only a "so called" term imposed on others to set them apart from French-speaking Quebecrs. What I object to, is that you obviously do not respect the feelings of minorities and have made unsubstantiated changes in numerous articles without following proper Wikipedia procedures -- and common courtesy. D. C. Thomas 00:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Plus, your "edit summary" statement that "it puts all previous economic growth solely on the English side" is not a fact and again, you don't give facts to support your opinion. D. C. Thomas 00:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OK then. I shall dispute the neutrality of the article (that's not a third revert, but a new edit in good faith). The tone is waxing poetic and paints the English and Scot Quebecers as the only contributors to the building and economic history of the province: "Those anglophone Quebecers [...] where 18th century English and Scots-Quebecer immigrant entrepreneurs, and their descendants, had built the business infrastructure that allowed the province to keep pace with the growth in the United States and turned Montreal into an economic powerhouse and the finance capital of all Canada". This attribution is misleading and clearly not neutral. Hopefully you understand that this tag should stay until the dispute is resolved.--Boffob 00:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, you express an opinion without providing facts to support it. And, by the way, at least I tried to do something by doing a bio for Rodolphe Forget, someone, I must point out, whose name you deleted without explanation from the List of Montreal business people‎. D. C. Thomas 00:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me put it this way then. The first part of the article does not go into the history of the French-speaking community in Quebec and how those who left for New-England were the descendants of the brave and hard-working men and women who first settled the place. In fact, it doesn't say a word about the history of that community at all. Why? Because it's unncessary, overly lyrical and POV. That's why the Anglophone exodus section shouldn't do this either.--Boffob 01:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Anglophone Exodus
While it is true that there have been migrations of French-Speaking Quebecers throughout history, these warrant a separate article from the Anglo-Quebecer migration which took place in the second half on the last century. Please consider the following article: Interprovincial Migration by Language Groups Province of Quebec, 1966-1991.

Some have ventured to say that there "was no" Anglophone exodus. Yet, here it is clearly proven by statistics that twice as many Anglophone Quebecers left the province during this period as Francophone Quebecers did. This is severely compounded by the fact that Anglophones make up about 10% of Quebec's population. So, the English migration during this period is much more important both in relation to the Francophone migration and in relation to the Anglophone community. It must be thought of in relation to the Anglophone community rather than to Quebec as a whole. The importance of this exodus must be recognized: 450 000 Anglophones leaving, out of a population of perhaps less than one million at the time. Compare this to the 220 000 French Quebecers who left, out of a population of six million! Even more compelling is the fact that, factoring in both English and French migration into Quebec, the net loss of Francophones was just 40 000 over this whole period, compared to a net loss of nearly 300 000 Anglophones. Furthermore, these newly arrived Anglophones tend to be, in my personal experience, from Ontario, the rest of Canada, or the US, and not returning Anglo-Quebecers. They therefore have little connection to Quebec's English community and often shun it in favour of the Francophone culture that they consider more appealing or mysterious. There are Americans who have lived in Montreal for years, assimilating into the French community and hardly knowing about any Anglo-Quebec one. The reason is simple: these newly arrived Anglophones come from an Anglophone majority, and English holds no special fascination for them.

Anyway, the point is that these new arrivals may or may not truly count as members of the Anglophone community in the same way that native-born English Quebecers do. However, either way, there has been a real, undeniable, and dramatic exodus of English speakers from Quebec. The reasons for this English migration are different than the reasons for Francophone migration, and the exodus cannot be attributed to economic booms in the rest of Canada. Rather, the exodus happened for socio-political reasons, and the economic boom elsewhere in Canada made it all the more possible for these people to leave. An Anglophone Exodus article is necessary to properly describe this occurence, which is distinct from the various Francophone migrations which have occured throught the years.

However, that is not to say that the Anglophone Exodus should not be included here. It is rather to say that this article should talk specifically about what its title describes: the diaspora of Quebec-born people, be they English or French speaking, living throughout the world and their achievements and struggles. There should be a separate Article describing how they got there: one for the Anglophone Exodus and one for the various Francophone Migrations (forced or not) that have affected Quebec (perhaps something like Quebec Migration, or something more specific since that would have to mention the Anglophone Exodus as it occured in Quebec).

Whatever the outcome, I would like to state my displeasure at some comments that I've read, not necessarily here but all over Wikipedia, which deny the Anglophone migration out of Quebec ever happened. In fact, it is proven statisitcally, not only in relation to Francophone migration (that is, twice as many Anglophons left as Francophones) but in relation to the English minority (that is, a huge percentage/nearly half of it). Further proof of the exodus: How do you think Toronto got bagels and culture?--70.55.60.176 15:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Gentlement the worst part of all of this is the grammatical and linguistic errors found in some of the key points made, as well as the unnecessary introduction of political bias. I have commented on this and made suggestions dans les deux langues officiels so that everyone can see the changes and that they are more balanced:

Il y a plusieurs gallicismes, erreurs grammatiques, opinions très fortes, et des autres problèmes dedans cette phrase:

ORIGINAL PARAGRAPH:

In the Anglo businesses, the executive jobs were reserved to a WASP boys' club. This was changed thanks to governement mesures and laws like Bill 101 in the 1960s and 70s. Understandably, many privileged Anglos did not accept well this loss of privilege. Those who did not want to accept that Quebec was a majoritarily French state (at 85%), left.

Je suggère ceci comme phrase complète: I suggest this as a complete replacement:

REPLACEMENT PARAGRAPH:

Amongst Predominantly english speaking businesses, executive level jobs were seen by many as been the exclusive domain of white anglo-saxon protestants or similar groups. Québec provincial legislation in the 1960's and 1970's aimed to alter this situation. Laws such as Bill 101 strongly promoted the use of French as the dominant language in the workplace. Unsuprisingly, many anglophone business executives as well as members of the extended english speaking Québec society were unimpressed by these new regulations and chose to relocate elsewhere.

Moi, je pense que c'est plus égale, et plus correct grammatiquement. Qu'est-ce que vous en pensez?

I find that this is more balanced, and more correct grammaticaly. What do you think about it?

Regards,

Cordialement,

Hubé

ventes@hube-gps.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.231.30 (talk) 07:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Dubious
I put the dubious tag because, while there's no doubt a number of anglophones left in the seventies and after, that population essentially cut all ties to Quebec, keeping none of the cultural elements that would distinguish it from the rest of the anglophone population of Canada, and as such does not qualify as a diaspora, in the sense of, say, the Italian diaspora and Irish diaspora.--Boffob (talk) 05:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Gonna stay away from that one; suffice to say it's a term that's curernt in Canadian historical wrir5ing and medai scripts et al.Skookum1 (talk) 05:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Francophones in the MidWest/Far West
I nearly put this as an inline comment, but it's a long issue:
 * --some of this would include American Metis, and I think the same is try in Missouri - though not by that name, and also Oregon/Wash/Montana/Idaho - in MT;/ID with native bloo, though not Metis in the usual sense; all though there as part of HBC/NWC operations, not French territory; also many Upper Canadian French who elft le pays bas wehn it became British/UEL/anglo,in MN and MI it makes perfect sense; there was some settlement there, adn teh french weren't shy of intermarraige with Native Americans oand also typically had large families. Upper Caanada was not as settled as Lower Canada during New France's time, but tehre was some settlement south of the Lakes and out around the MIssisppi; even an individual can leave a few hundred descdants in that time span...."significant" can still be fractional because identifiable. or self-identifiable; they are no doubt far outnumberef by Eastern  and Northern Europeans....`Skookum1 (talk) 05:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Eastern Townships / "Cantons de l'Est"
My reason for includeing htat, which I guess I shied frmo the full syntax on as it might have come across POV, was to point out that they are now dominantly francophone.Skookum1 (talk) 14:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Better image?
While I cannot say I dislike Mademoiselle Jolie's pretty face, on the contrary, I think there ought to be some other image we can use that would be more appropriate to the subject, like a photograph of a passenger train crossing the border or the neighbourhood of a major town known to have been (or to be) inhabited/built by Quebecers. -- Mathieugp (talk) 00:26, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of latest edit
The edit concerned Quebeqois emigration to France. There was no reference cited. In addition, untranslated French was key to understanding the edit--inappropriate for an English language encyclopedia. Further, the editor was banned 3 days after the addition for sock puppetry. Enough. Tapered (talk) 01:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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