Talk:Queen Elizabeth Way/Archive 1

Googlemap links
I have clicked on a number of the googlemap links (for pictures of the interchanges), and they were way off. They all went to the same location in eastern Toronto, about 10-15 km from where they should have been. I guess they will need to be checked and corrected. 69.158.8.239 23:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If you correct them, please instead use coor d. --SPUI (T - C) 20:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Freeway / Highway

 * "The Queen Elizabeth Way (commonly referred to as the QEW, Q, QE, or Queen-E) is a vital 400-Series freeway in Ontario, Canada."

I don't know if freeway is really the correct term to be used here, perhaps highway. The wiktionary says that a freeway is a highway with "full access control", while a highway is "A multi-lane, high speed thoroughfare connecting major population centers." Thoughts? --Stephen 00:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The QEW has full access control.-- Ibagli ( Talk ) 03:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

YES! YES! YES!
I found proof of the 451 designation: --NE2 21:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

QEW was planned as 402?
I don't think so... have a look at. 400, 401, and 402 were all designated at the same time, either 1952 (which is what other unreliable sources say) or 1953. Before then, the 400-series numbers were not used. --NE2 14:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * All three were designated in July of 1952 according to From Footpaths to Freeways (by the DoH). Highway 400 was on July 1, when it was opened to Barrie. Presumably the 401 and 402 were numbered at the same time. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  20:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Shield?
What does File:Expression error: Unrecognised word "qew"|70x100px|alt=Highway QEW shield mean?
 * Its a coding error in the template, because the QEW is an odd highway that uses letters instead of numbers. I'll see if I can fix it. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  17:27, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * All done. Should show up now. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  18:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Queen Elizabeth Way
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Queen Elizabeth Way's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "2010 mapart": From Ontario Highway 405:  From Ontario Highway 406:  From Ontario Highway 400A:  From Ontario Highway 20:  From Ontario Highway 420: </li> <li>From Ontario Highway 137: </li> <li>From Ontario Highway 2A: MapArt 2010</li> <li>From Ontario Highway 403: </li> <li>From Lincoln M. Alexander Parkway: </li> <li>From Ontario Highway 402: </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 08:17, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Plains Road
There used to be an exit at Plains Road in Burlington that should be added to the exit list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.128.63 (talk) 02:37, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

QEW ALT SVG Shield Done
This one is now done as well:. Should it be included in the infobox? If not where in the article should it exist? Haljackey (talk) 21:05, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There's also this one made by reversing the colours of the shield in the infobox, but the other one looks much more like the real thing: http://i.imgur.com/1gnXF.png Haljackey (talk) 21:07, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering which pantones are the correct colour... The blue on yellow is the shield along the highway and the yellow on blue is the trailblazers on nearby roads pointing to the highway though. -  Floydian  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  23:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And just because you made it, you don't have to stick it somewhere in the article. The picture was a better illustation than a graphic. Why don't you use it as a trailblazer on an exit list rather than the yellow one in connections from other highways like Hwy 420? Secondarywaltz (talk) 23:42, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, how would you suggest that could be done? Haljackey (talk) 01:10, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't know how to explain it any better. If this is a trailblazer sign, which is found on connecting roads and highways and not on the QEW, perhaps it would be appropriate to use it on the exit lists in those articles instead of the yellow sign. What am I not saying here? Secondarywaltz (talk) 19:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think he's asking for the technicalities of doing it. Most of the time it is handled by jcon. I'll let you try to interpret it and find where it goes (hint: its a subtemplate of jcon, but that should be easy to find), and if you get lost I'll point you in the right direction. If you're making custom sc4 lots you're ready to tackle the complex mistress that is the wikiparser! ;) -  Floydian  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  00:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is purely a concept of how this can now be used. I just don't think the graphic needs to be randomly stuffed into the article replacing a perfectly good photograph showing the sign in use. Secondarywaltz (talk) 22:34, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

QEW begins as Highway 451?
Where is the source on the QEW beign Highway 451? I have never seen that on any MTO documents. I have seen the QEW listed as the elusive hwy 1 before however. --24.103.215.190 02:08, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Documented sources directly from the MTO - I'd post their name, but I don't want to unless I have permission. There were other 450-series highways, though they ferry routes.  Also, G1 drivers have been pulled over on the QEW and been told to get off the highway, with the OPP citing that the QEW is Highway 451, therefore a 400-series highway and forbidden for G1 drivers.  Ontario has never had a Highway 1, and probably never will.  There is some speculation that Highway 1 was originally supposed to be the routing of Highway 2 from Windsor to Toronto, and then Highway 2 from Toronto to the Quebec border.  In the end, the entire route was numbered 2.  Snickerdo 02:32, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * The argument that the QEW is forbidden to G1 drivers therefore it must be a 400-series highway makes absolutely no sense. Both the Conestoga Expy and DVP among others are not 400-series highways and are restricted to G1 drivers.  I have read a lot of MTO documents, and have seen Highway 1 come up plenty of times, yet I have never seen any reference to a Hwy 451.  I emplore you, please cite your sources, if the QEW is indeed known legally as Highway 451, I cannot possibly imagine why you would have to hide where you found this information--24.103.242.178 07:50, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * That G1 argument was actually told to me by a police officer. As for information, here it is...
 * http://www.thekingshighway.ca/faq.htm
 * http://www.thekingshighway.ca/intro.html
 * http://members.aol.com/Hwys/OntHwys/OntHwys400-QEW.html
 * As well as Internal documents from my contacts at the MTO, which can't be posted for obvious reasons. The QEW is Highway 451, end of story.  You will not find any information that says the QEW is Highway 1.  'Highway 1' was going to be Highway 2 from Windsor to Toronto, but they ended up lumping it in with Highway 2 for competition reasons. Snickerdo 19:23, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * If these are your references POST THEM, everything that is not common knowledge must be referenced. Of course, not awknoledging that the QEW is also Highway 1 proves to me at least that you are not reading some very common MTO documents.  The QEW is listed as Highway 1 in the AADT data for example.  --24.103.242.178 05:38, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Highway 1 in the AADT Data? No way.  Unless you prove otherwise, that comment is totally false.  At least I have some other well-respected websites to back up the correct claim that the QEW is Highway 451. Snickerdo 20:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've been doing research trying to get to the bottom of the Highway 1/Highway 451 situation. I owe you an apology, as it is in fact true that the QEW is listed as Highway 1 in MTO traffic count reports. The information I have are older DHO milage reports that list the QEW as Highway 451, along with a number of other 450-series highways (one was the Wolfe Island Ferry, others were bridges, etc). The Highway 1 listings are newer than 451, so this could be a simple matter of bookeeping, or the fact that 1 has replaced 451 as the official secret designation, or whether they both co-exist together. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the YahooGroup called Canroads, but we're discussing it there right now and hoping someone can get in touch with the MTO to get an offical answer once and for all. You're welcome to join if you like. Snickerdo 02:06, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

DYK
Congratulations! That's the only hook for a road article I've ever thought worth clicking on. Johnbod (talk) 23:54, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Colloquial: "The Queen E"?
I've never once heard of the QEW referred to as the "Queen E" and I've lived in the GTA for almost 40 years. Maybe I've just missed it? If I had heard it, I might have thought it referred to Queen Street East. In my opinion the colloquial ("used in ordinary or familiar conversation") name of the highway is just "QEW" as that's what most refer to it as in traffic reports, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.187.236 (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I've heard QEW, QE, and Queen Lizzy, but never Queen E. Grande (talk) 19:03, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Update : See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Queen_Elizabeth_Way/archive1&redirect=no. Seems to be more of a Buffalo term, but it does have sources. Grande (talk) 19:09, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard it, but it is in many a source. Queen Lizzy is kind of new to me as well. To be honest, I don't think it should mention any of them in the lede, since they're all just variations of the same thing. "The Queen Elizabeth Way, often abbreviated and pronounced as the QEW, is..." would be an ideal lede clause for me. Thoughts? -  Floydian  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  23:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that only the commonly used initialized version should be mentioned in the lede. "Lizzy" is her daughter and is doubtful. What you offer here might be missinterpreted to mean pronounced like "cue" instead of the individual letters "Q.E.W." Secondarywaltz (talk) 01:19, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments
I had planned to review this at FAC, but it was promoted. Here are my comments:


 * Lede
 * I doubt the last sentence of the first paragraph is important enough to include so prominently in the lede
 * "Lakeshore Road". You refer to this three times in this manner and twice as "Lake Shore Road" or "Lake Shore".  They are all historic uses.
 * "grade-separated intersections known as interchanges" I don't think there's time for gee-whiz in the lede. I would simply call them "interchanges" or "grade-separated interchanges"  The reader has likely been on a few ... thousand.
 * "throughout the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s" perhaps "beginning in the 1950s". The date given soon after of 1975 provides an adequate terminus.
 * "renamed" is that the proper term? Not "redesignated" or "resigned"?
 * Name etc.
 * "sometimes referred to as the Queen E" then shouldn't that be placed in the first sentence of the lede as an alternate name? I ask because it seems out of place in this passage that otherwise refers to events that occurred around 1939.
 * Was there a reason for the change of signs in 1955? Elizabeth wasn't Queen consort after 1952, after all.
 * Monuments: aren't there monuments in the median in St. Catherine's, where the skyway takes off towards Niagara?  I think I read that these were at one time accessible, but have long been impossible to get to. If you have any info, it might be worth a mention.  I seem to recall an article on them, possibly in The Globe and Mail.
 * Route description
 * "directionally-signed using cities" picky picky Fort Erie is not a city (you call it a town later on). And I'm not aware of a city named Niagara.  Was that intended to designate Niagara Falls or the region?
 * "A customs booth is located between the bridge and the freeway, where a toll is charged to Canada-bound drivers." Not at customs, the toll booths are beyond customs.
 * "From there access is provided to nearby Highway 3 and the Niagara Parkway. Through customs," From where? I'm reasonably certain you can't get on/off before the toll booths, which are certainly run by the Peace Bridge Authority.  Question: will the plans to move US customs at the Peace Bridge into Canada (if they ever work out the details) have any effect on the QEW?
 * "Niagara-bound drivers can follow Highway 405 to Lewiston, New York." it might be worth mentioning that much of the traffic (especially commercial) gets off here for the shorter route to the New York State Thruway's main line.
 * "skyways" Why italicized?
 * "several design restrictions were not considered" this seems a bit opaque.
 * " three historic overpasses" if they are historic, you should more clearly explain why.
 * " the freeway exits Niagara Region" missing "the"?
 * "becoming concurrent with Highway 403 through Burlington and Oakville." You said in the lede through the Regional Municipality of Halton. Are these the same?
 * "where a second structure is currently under construction." a bridge? What good is that if you can't expand the highway?
 * History
 * Is Autobahn properly capped and unitalicized?
 * Do we have costs for the QEW's construction? Deaths? Anything else on the design?  I know for the Pennsylvania Turnpike the median strip was supposed to be accessible in places for picnicking etc. Was it the same with the QEW? Was it a Depression-era public works project designed to get people back to work?
 * "several groups of collisions that summer gradually persuaded the public in support of the new highway" I'm not sure what a "group of collisions" is, but there's also a problem with the rest of the sentence. "persuaded the public in support"
 * Skyways
 * "the W.E. Fitzgerald" I imagine this is a ship. It should be italicized.  I don't think it is worthy of a redlink as a ship, though its attempt to take to the road might be notable.
 * "The damaged crossing" better, "Damage to the crossing"
 * Leslie Frost is linked on second use, and it is probably not necessary to refer to him by title and full name both times.
 * "The $20 million (in 1963, $153000000 adjusted for inflation) structure was officially opened by Prime Minister John Robarts" You should break up the large figures with commas every three digits. And wasn't Pearson PM then?
 * 1960s etc.
 * "a unique rotary interchange of which it was the only example in Ontario" some redundancy in the description, ironically enough
 * " equivalent of 42 km (26 mi) of two-lane roadway." wouldn't it be more logical to express this in terms of lane-miles?
 * "and was the demise of one of two major features along the route." I'm not clear on what this means.
 * 1980s
 * "Planning for a second parallel structure began a decade later in 1983.[65] In July of that year, Transportation Minister James Snow broke ground for the new bridge." Well ... that strikes me as very fast planning, if they could begin it within 1983 and break ground the same year in July.
 * "add a fourth leg" Not clear what this refers to.
 * "sell off or offload" "offload" seems a bit informal.
 * That's all I have.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:07, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd be more than happy to deal with these. I personally felt the article got a substandard review from non-highway members. It may take a few days, but I will let you know when I am done so you can reassess. For our convenience, I've changed your bullet points to numbers so I may respond without splitting your post. Cheers,  Floydian  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  01:56, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Lede
 * Disagree here. It's the only concurrency between two freeways in Ontario. I think this is key info.
 * Fixed. In Toronto there is Lake Shore Blvd, built mostly in the 1950s, whereas west of Toronto it is Lakeshore Road.
 * Done
 * Done
 * Fixed
 * Name and...
 * That is a common alternative name, but there are a handful of slightly different variations used interchangeably by drivers. A source with a list of the nicknames to add to this section would be handy, but not accessible to me at the moment. But, as mentioned in the above discussion, it's simpler to stick with the basics in the lede sentence.
 * Nothing significant. The shield shape (particularly the crown) was altered in 1955, so I'm guessing it was done as part of that as well as an overall move towards retro-reflective steel signage throughout North America. Don't have a source that says any of this though.
 * Negative. The Henley Bridge has the decorative stone work, but there isn't and never has been any on the GC Skyway. Might have been a locally-erected monument, i.e. the big globe at the southern end of the Burlington Bay Skyway that welcomes drivers to Hamilton.
 * Route description
 * Switched "cities" to "locations", which hopefully solves that.
 * Fixed
 * Fixed
 * I haven't seen any source mentioning that the 405 is the primary truck route, as I did easily with the 402 being the truck route as opposed to the 401.
 * Dunno... removed them
 * Yeah, not much I can do regarding the vagueness. I reworded it, which should hopefully make it concise.
 * Reworded
 * Nope... It's not "the Niagara Region", it's simply "Niagara Region"
 * Clarified
 * Indeed, a bridge. Other parts can be expropriated and realigned as need be, but those bridges are fairly confined.
 * History
 * Good to go
 * There are costs for certain projects here and there, but nothing consistent or summed up. The skyways were the only projects I felt would benefit for numbers. The article should mention that the reason work began on The Middle Road was as a depression-relief project. No picnic spots in the median, but there were originally trees and flowers in it and trees flanking the side of the highway, but they were removed when the route was widened after they realized that trees stop 60 mph vehicles fairly easily.
 * There were several weekends where multiple pileups happened in various places on Highway 8 (the main route between Hamilton and Niagara before the QEW), and one day called (IIRC off the top of my head) "Bloody Sunday" when several people died. As for the other part, would "persuaded the public in favour..." work?
 * Skyways
 * I think it is worthy of an article, although there is very little information regarding it. Needless to say, they should retire the "Fitzgerald" name for ships... they don't have a good track record :)
 * Done
 * Fixed
 * Whoops... Guess he was premier actually. Both fixed
 * 1960s etc
 * Fixed
 * I figure the average Joe wouldn't be able to comprehend lane-miles, and the source presents it as I have.
 * I'm trying to say that it marked the end of its existence... any suggestions here? I'm drawing a blank.
 * 1980s
 * It struck me as odd as well. Despite the wording of the source, I'm going to change it to "preliminary work".
 * Changed the three-legged interchange to one with four legs... not sure how else to even describe this in all honesty, heh.
 * ...Should have been "download", which is the actual term they used for this process.
 * That should cover it. A few of the points I've asked for your input, so I'll await that before making any changes to those. Cheers,  Floydian  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  22:00, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * figure this got lost in your watchlist somewhere, wanted to see if the changes I made were satisfactory. -  Floydian  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  23:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll get back to you as time permits, I'm a bit snowed right now.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

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Freeman Interchange
''Work began in August 1991 to rebuild the interchange and add a fourth leg. The rebuilt interchange was opened on October 23, 1993;'' This was actually incorrect as the interchange was reopened in stages and wasn't complete until 2001. Suggest that we cite Ontario Ministry of Transportation - © Queen's Printer for Ontario, 2012.

the first sod for what would open as Highway 407 was turned that day. Awkward wording, prefer to state it more directly.

From 2003-04, a project commenced to widening QEW between Brant Street and Guelph Line from four to eight lanes, so the ramps to Plains Road were removed in favour of a new interchange with Guelph Line. I moved this further down as it wasn't directly part of the Freeman Interchange reconstruction. FobTown (talk) 15:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)


 * In 1993, the interchange opened with dead-ended ramps for the future "403". Before that it had the same configuration since ~1958. The ability to get on those ramps didn't happen until the 407 opened around '99. That seems like something that should be clarified indeed... but we can't use photos or thekingshighway.ca in general as a reference. Cameron Bevers hasn't received any external coverage like John Shragge did, so he can't be considered an industry expert (despite working for the MTO). I've also found mistakes here and there.
 * What wording do you suggest? They started building the Freeman to Dundas portion of the 407 in the early 90s, but the Bob Rae government stopped it and changed it from being part of Highway 403 to being part of the 407.
 * That makes sense. I likely stuck it there since the whole Burlington Skyway stretch was non-stop construction for 15 years.
 * --  Floydian  τ ¢ 15:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

All unsourced additions will be reverted
this is a featured article. All additions must be sourced, especially dates. The same goes for Highway 401, but I will deal with that once you finish your endless changes. Stop making major alterations to the article without a source to back up everything, and without discussing it. Outdated by a few years is better than unreferenced conjecture. Please bring the additions you want to make to the talk page... four eyes is better than two before making changes, and I have access to a physical library of maps and texts on Ontario highways that can likely reference the actual pertinent information you are looking to add. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 15:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)


 * If you have the sources available that would be greatly appreciated, as the brief descriptions don't do justice to the complexity of those construction projects. FobTown (talk) 23:26, 29 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Check out WP:BLOATED, WP:NOTEVERYTHING if you have not. When you are dealing with something the magnitude of the QEW - 140 km, 2 major bridges, at least a dozen significant interchanges - there is too much to cover every detail. I'd love to have an entire section on the Shook's hill interchange... with the 50th anniversary of the interchanges opening at the 420, 427, and Centennial Parkway, there are a boatload of Ministry photographs that will become public domain in a year or two.


 * Since this generally concerns recent construction, let's clean up the whole subsection. Which parts do you feel are missing details or out-of-date?




 * Personally, "which should allow for longer merging lanes since the convergence of Highway 403 and the QEW is an infamous bottleneck." jumped out of that at me like a weed in a manicured lawn. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 01:25, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree with "Highway 403 and the QEW is an infamous bottleneck" so it has been removed.
 * For the recent work section I added some detail beyond the generic "widening", including mention of notable projects such as twinning historic bridges, some politics such as cyclists safety, all while keeping it brief to avoid WP:BLOATED, WP:NOTEVERYTHING.
 * The Freeman Interchange was a big project in re-configuring the 1950s directional-T junction to its current form, such that none of the original remains, so we can include some more detail other than "add a fourth leg". Some of the changes described included making QEW the mainline traffic and eliminating the confusing left-hand exits. FobTown (talk) 15:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

"Built" and "completed" dates in lead
It's quite helpful with most articles (ships, voyages, cars, people, countries, etc.) to show a "begin" and if applicable "end" date in the lead sentence, e.g. "Apollo 7 (October 11–22, 1968) was the first crewed flight in NASA's..." This keeps the reader from having to hunt around the article to find it and to see if they have the right article. I suppose with roads it's typically more of a gradual process, but in this case the infobox states: "History	Built: 1931 – October 14, 1956". Would it not be helpful to say "1931 – present" or "offically opened 1956" or some such? Cheers, Facts707 (talk) 18:56, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd say if we were to do that (which is not the norm for any other highway articles, fyi), that the proper date would be either the commemoration by the Queen Mother in June 1939, or the official opening to Niagara Falls in August 1940. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 21:11, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your thoughts. I'll leave it in your capable hands. Cheers, Facts707 (talk) 14:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)