Talk:Queen Sofía of Spain

Titles
I am wondering what her titles were from her marriage in 1962 to her husband being designated Prince of Spain in 1969. And after 1969 until 1975 (when Juan Carlos became King), was she Princess of Spain? Just trying to get it right because as of now, her titles section claims that she has been HM The Queen since 1962, and that is not correct. Prsgoddess187 13:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm not really sure, but I think that because Franco was still alive Spain hadnt really transitioned back into a monarchy yet, so im guessing that she was just Princess Sofia. But it could have been that she was The Princess of Spain, although it would probably be difficult to find out. For now I'm just going to fix the date that she became queen, and for now until someone can tell us, im just going to put her as Princess Sofia, from her marriage to her husbands ascension. Mac Domhnaill 00:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. It would make sense for her to be titled Princess Sofia, so until someone comes up with evidence one way or the other, we can leave it at that. Thanks. Prsgoddess187 01:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

title
someone has changed her title from Princess Sofia of Spain to Infanta Sofia of Spain. As an Infanta and Princess are not the same thing, an Infanta is by birth right not by marriage. Mac Domhnaill 19:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The titles are fairly congruent and in older publications are interchangeable in regard to countries such as Spain and Portugal... Also in German they are mostly called Prinz von Spanien and Prinzessin von Spanien. I do believe, however, that infante/infanta should be used. Charles 16:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I am Spanish and inside Spain she is called Queen Sofia of Spain, and before come queen, Princess Sofia of Spain, not Infanta.

Halogroup H
I am not a molecular biologist. Would someone care to explain to me what Halogroup H is?


 * check out Haplogroup H (mtDNA). It's the most common European mitochondrial haplogroup. - Nunh-huh 17:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"Of Greece and Denmark"
There has been a mistake in Queen Sofía's maiden name. Many people referred to her maiden name as princess of Greece and Denmark but the official website of the Royal House of Spain (www.casareal.es) named her as Princess of Greece only, you can even visit the website of the Greek royal family (www.greekroyalfamily.org) and read that they never mention Denmark or call any member of their family as prince or princess of Denmark (you will find Queen Sofia's biography too). The mistake comes as the Greek royal family had descended from the Danish royal family. Queen Sofía's mother Queen Federika was princess of Hanover; so Queen Sofía could be called properly as princess of Greece and Hannover, but the Spanish royal house only name her as princess of Greece.


 * According to a royal website, this apparently is how the Danish title still survives in her family: "They still bear the Danish title because King George I never renounced his rights to the Danish throne when he assumed the Greek one, though he did defer his succession rights and agreed that his younger brother's would supersede his. What view the Danish Court and government take of the Greeks' use of the Danish titles is not clear" Does anybody have a solid citation for this?Mowens35 18:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Anon user, you are wrong regarding the Hanoverian title... Those only descend in the male-line. The Danish titles descend in the male-line as well, which is why all Greek royals are also Danish royals. Prince Philip is of the same family and was born a prince of Greece and Denmark. Because the Spanish don't mention the Danish title doesn't mean that it is non-existant. Charles 19:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I would think that mentioning the Greek title only is just shorthand for the Spanish court, but, yes, that doesn't mean it is non-existant. Her sister, Irene, certainly uses both Danish and Greek titles.Mowens35 19:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

All greek royals share the title "of Greece and Denmark". This was a stipulation laid down by King Christian IX when his son Prince Vilhelm accepted the throne of Greece. See the book "Kings of the Hellenes: The Greek Kings, 1863-1974" by John van der Kiste --Mpokane 15:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Correct observation Mpokane. When Prince Vilhelm (George I) assumed the throne of Greece, his father wished him to have a fall-back position. He possibly feared a repetition of the deposal of King Otto. The Danish monarchy has no problem with the Greek part of the family, but the Greeks have no claim to the throne since Queen Anne Marie gave up her claim to it when she married Constantine. In Danish, a distinction is made between a Prince(ss) to Denmark and a Prince(ss) of Denmark. Only the first category can inherit the throne. The other title is regulated as well, but a prince(ss) of Denmark has no claim to the throne. Regarding the status of Constantine and Anne Marie; Queen Margrethe II consistently refer to the couple as "King" and "Queen", although her visit to Greece a few years ago seems to suggest that she has accepted that Greece has become a republic, so her use of the royal titles must be a courtesy. But the links between the two families remain strong and all descendants of George I will, from legal point of view, hold the "Prince(ss) of Denmark" title, including Queen Sofía. But again, this title has little actual content. Valentinian T / C 22:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that the Greek Royal Family lost their rights to succession in Denmark via their male-line descent when the succession was limited to the descendants of Christian X in 1953. Charles 22:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly, the Greeks hold the title "Prince(ss) of Denmark", not "Prince(ss) to Denmark", and Denmark's 1953 law of succession applies to Constantine II. Anne-Marie naturally held a strong claim to the Danish throne herself, a claim which would be inherited by her children, but she surrendered these rights upon marrying Constantine, and this also applies to her descendents. Valentinian T / C 14:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Why the table of Greek monarchy? Sofia is Queen of Spain, the well table is Spanish monarchy.

I moved the page from Queen Sofia of Spain to Queen Sofía of Spain, but the talk page was left behind. I didn't know what else to do, so I added a merge request.--Cúchullain t/ c 20:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It should be noted though, that Greek Royals still have a claim to British Throne. This exclude Queen Sofia, because she married to a Roman Catholic, and she converted to Roman Catholicism herself. Spanish Royals have claims to British throne if their religion is not catholic. Shame on that, because I am a catholic living in UK. --w_tanoto 08:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"Princess of Asturias"?
According to the Juan Carlos article, and other sources, he never held the Asturias title in his life, either officially or as a courtesy. He was Prince Juan of Spain for many years until he added his second name and became known as Prince Juan Carlos -- again, according to his article. He was made Prince of Spain in 1969, but not Prince of Asturias, again which his article notes. So therefore, Sofía was never Princess of Asturias.Mowens35 12:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Princess of Spain
What happened in 1969 that she went from Princess Sofia of Spain to The Princess of Spain?Cjrs 79 05:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Spanish government gave Prince Juan Carlos the title Prince of Spain, indicating his favorable position as the prospective heir to the throne after Franco either stepped down or died.Mowens35 17:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If the title was given to Juan Carlos, it means that before that it didn't exist. The title was always Infante and Infanta of Spain. Charles 17:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reinstated the changes because the title is relevant to their claim to the throne. It was only on 1976 when Don Juan de Borbon, the Count of Barcelona, relinquished his historical rights to the Spanish throne on his son Juan Carlos. Feel free to get rid of the Princess consort of Asturias, as she has never held the title. --Asturs (talk) 01:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The title Prince(ss) of Spain is important enough to be mentioned in the article, but there is no need for a succession box because the title was not born by anyone before or after Sofia. Besides, it looks really awful with so many red links. Surtsicna (talk) 19:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Umh, well, we could add some yellow links so we could have a reference to the Spanish flag. Still, point taken. Another question, I have never hear before that the title of Prince of Spain was Sofia's suggestion to Franco. Can anyone throw some light into it? Many thanksAsturs (talk) 15:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Franco wouldn't let Juan Carlos have the title of Principe de Asturias as to do so would imply his father was king. When he was designated as Franco's successor in 1969 it was felt a title was required and Sofia using the example of her own family in Greece suggested that an appropriate title would be "Principe de Espana". See Paul Preston biography Juan Carlos page 238. --Mpokane (talk) 17:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Vegetarians category
Queen Sofía is not a vegetarian, as she eat fish. I delete the category. --84.79.215.124 02:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well the category "spanish vegetarian" is still there. She should be categorised as pescetarian. (just realised she has a lot in common with me)--w_tanoto 08:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The Privilege to wear white
I made some changes to the notes about wearing white. I corrected the grammar and the (incorrect) link to Isabella of Castile. It is still possible to link to Isabella through this new link, so nothing's lost. Dakno 03:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Queen Sofia, MD?
Does anyone have references to confirm the following quote from the article?

and then studied pediatrics, music, and archeology in Athens

If she "studied pediatrics", she must have gotten a medical degree first, right? Mip | Talk 17:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The Queen of Spain does not hold any university degree ( and, both in Spanish) --Karljoos (talk) 21:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

"She is the only queen consort in Europe to be royal by birth."
Hmm...what is that supposed to mean? It is very vague. -- Jack1755 (talk) 16:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe it is supposed to mean that she is the only queen consort in Europe who was born into a royal family. Given that Queen Anne-Marie of Greece and Queen Anne of Romania are also European queens consort who were born into a royal family, I'm removing the sentence. Surtsicna (talk) 16:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Neither Anne-Marie of Greece nor Anne of Romania are active Queen Consorts. In fact, Anne of Romania married King Michael after he had been deposed. Of all extant monarchies, Queen Sofia is the only queen consort to have been born into a royal family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.1.172 (talk) 22:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Britian
Queen Sofia is Second-Cousin is Prince Charles of England. Sofia's father is King Paul. King Paul's father is Constantine, Constantine's brother is Prince Andrew. Andrew's son is Prince Phillip. His wife is Queen ELizabeth the Second who is the mother of Prince Charles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.222.154.151 (talk) 01:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Title
There seems to be a general aversion on Wikipedia to using "Queen" etc. in article titles, so should this be moved to "Sofía of Spain"? There are a number of discussions going on already. PatGallacher (talk) 10:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would strongly support such move. There is absolutely no reason to have this article titled Queen Sofía of Spain while the article about her husband isn't titled King Juan Carlos I of Spain. It should be either King Juan Carlos I of Spain and Queen Sofía of Spain or Juan Carlos I of Spain and Sofía of Spain. Besides, dropping Queen from the titles of articles would also make categorisation easier. Surtsicna (talk) 13:22, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I also think this page is wrongly named, but I rather move it to Sofía of Greece and Denmark. All the articles about Queens consort of Spain are named in this way: Maria Christina of Austria, Mercedes of Orléans, Maria Christina of the Two Sicilies, Maria Luisa of Parma, Maria Amalia of Saxony. etc. The same withs Engilsh (Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Mary of Teck, Alexandra of Denmark...), Swedish (Louise of Battenberg, Victoria of Baden, Sofia of Nassau...) or Dutch (Emma of Waldeck and Pyrmont, Sophie of Württemberg...) consorts. --Paliano (talk) 10:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

This article was moved without consensus. There is no automatic presumption in favour of maiden names, see WP:NCROY. There is currently a discussion at Marie of Edinburgh which has some bearing on this issue, I suggest putting all moves of queens consort on hold until this is completed. PatGallacher (talk) 16:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Requested move
It is not normal to have "Queen" in the title. PatGallacher (talk) 19:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I would've gladly supported the move if her granddaughter wasn't Sofía of Spain as well. I would support similar requests (such as Queen Silvia of Sweden to Silvia of Sweden) but this case is not as simple as others are. Surtsicna (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The queen could still be the primary meaning. PatGallacher (talk) 20:44, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

This is a borderline case, but on second thoughts, in view of the information which has been brought to my attention, I withdraw this proposed move, although I still think "Sofía of Spain" should redirect here. PatGallacher (talk) 23:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't understand the problem. It's entirely in line with guideline WP:NCNT. See other European examples: Queen Paola of Belgium, Queen Sonja of Norway, and Queen Silvia of Sweden. Dr. D.E. Mophon (talk) 17:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Titles decorations and arms
there are a lot of decorations, list moved to List of titles and honours of Queen Sofía of Spain as main mebers of the British and Spanish Royal Families --Galico (talk) 17:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Queen Sonja of Norway which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move, she no longer Queen
Since she is no longer Queen of Spain due to her husband's abdication, I believe the article should be moved to Sofía of Spain. Impru20 (talk) 11:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * She is nevertheless styled Queen Sofía of Spain. Her daughter-in-law is the Queen of Spain. If the article is to be moved, it should be to Sofía of Greece and Denmark (compare with Sofía de Grecia). After all, her legal name is Sofía de Grecia, and it would bring the article into holy consistency with articles about other former queens of Spain (her predecessors). Surtsicna (talk) 22:47, 23 June 2014 (UT


 * Neither Sofía nor Letizia are or were ever styled "Queen of Spain". That title can only be used by a reigning queen under the Royal Decree 1368/1987 that regulates the titles and styles of the Spanish royal family. Both Sofía and Letizia are simply titled "Queen" (without the designation "of Spain"). To differentiate between the two, Letizia, as the consort of the current King, is normally referred to simply as Her Majesty The Queen (Su Majestad la Reina) whereas Sofía is referred to by her forenname as Her Majesty Queen Sofía (in Spanish, Su Majestad la Reina Doña Sofía). Sofía retained the courtesy title of Queen and the style of Majesty following King Juan Carlos's abdication under the Royal Decree 470/2014, which amended the Royal Decree 1368/1987.187.73.191.2 (talk) 00:08, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree that Sofía of Greece and Denmark would be more appropiate for her, as well as to avoid confusion with her granddaughter Sofía (which is also styled Sofia "of Spain"). Impru20 (talk) 23:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

See Queen Paola of Belgium, for an example of why this article shouldn't be renamed. GoodDay (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * What's there to see? Is there an explanation in that article as to why the current title of this article is the best one possible? Surtsicna (talk) 07:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * It's precedent setting, for how to name former queen-consorts. PS: Meanwhile, an article title that should be changed is Queen Anne of Romania, but that's another topic :) GoodDay (talk) 10:20, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Then again, see Category:Spanish royal consorts for a precedent on how to name Spanish queens. Surtsicna (talk) 11:22, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a precedent for Spanish former queen/king-consorts. Sofía is the only one who bears the style "Queen" in her article (with the exception of Anna of Austria, Queen of Spain, but then that is in order to differentiate her from other people called Anna of Austria). Impru20 (talk) 18:02, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Best to open a full-fledge RM & see how it goes. Afterall, there'd only be 2 possible outcomes. Futhermore, with the recent spell of abdications, it might be good to seek a criteria for spouses of living former monarchs. GoodDay (talk) 19:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Photo of Her Majesty
Hola Surtsicna His Majesty's eyes are like that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerson10 (talk • contribs) 23:46, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Queen Sofîa's Middle Names
Would it be possible to see some sourcing on Queen Sofía's middle names (Margarita Victoria Frederika)? Neither of her siblings have them, and I don't see any other Greek Royals (Philip, Marina, etc.) who have had them. The only ones I have seen with multiple names were hyphenates (Maria-Olympia, Constantine-Alexios). I've also read that you are only allowed to be baptized with one name in the Greek Orthodox church. Just looking to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks! JasonBux (talk) 20:37, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't have any info about Sofia specifically but I can provide some general info for you. Greeks don't typically have middle names because the Western cultural practice of assigning middle names simply didn't take hold in Greece. Instead, Greeks continue to follow the Eastern (i.e. "Byzantine") tradition of assigning a patronymic to the child. For example, a child named Periklis Kazantzis with a father named Dimitris would be "Periklis Dimitriou Kazantzis". The Dimitriou patronymic is implied; it is not normally written or stated. The only time you would see it written is on a passport or some other government document, and even then it might not appear as part of the person's name but rather as a separate item. As for the Maria-Olympia and Constantine-Alexios double first names, this is an uncommon but acceptable practice. In such cases the church would use both first names for the baptism. 69.165.138.227 (talk) 03:47, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The three middle names "Margarita Victoria Frederika" were added to this article on 10 May 2006 as the final of 11 entries of anonymous User:201.145.181.107, all made to this article except for one edit to that of Juan Carlos I of Spain. Although the edits are sensible and do not appear to have been obvious vandalism, no footnote or source for any of the edits was provided, including the middle names. Therefore it is difficult to determine whether or not, when the names were deleted as "dubious" after the comment at the top of this section was posted on 14 July 2014, but were then re-inserted with a source dated 15 June 2014, if that belated source merely mirrored English Wikipedia. In other words, it is quite possible that the 2014 published source took the information from English (or some other) Wikipedia, which took it, inadvertently, from the 2006 post of User:201.145.181.107. Without a verifiable external source for these middle names that pre-dates 10 May 2006, it is now probably impossible to trust that this information was ever properly sourced. Neither of the two official Spanish decrees published in the Boletín Oficial del Estado conferring chivalric orders on Doña Sofía in 1961 and in 1983 mention any given name but "Sofía". Both the 1964 (p. 33) and 1997 (pp. 20, 101) Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Füstliche Häuser give only one name, "Sophie" (in German) for the subject of this article. As of now, therefore, the middle names are sourced in the article -- but unreliably so. FactStraight (talk) 06:12, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

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RFC: Intro & infobox title
Should the intro to this article begin with Queen Sofía of Spain & the infobox heading be Sofía? or not. GoodDay (talk) 21:04, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Survey

 * Yes as the other living former queen consorts do. See Queen Paola of Belgium (for example). GoodDay (talk) 21:27, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I do not see why the article about the former queen of Spain should be inconsistent with the articles about other former queens of Spain and consistent instead with the article about the former Belgian queen. Surtsicna (talk) 21:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The others are dead. GoodDay (talk) 21:34, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, let me rephrase it a bit. Why should the article about the living former queen of Spain be inconsistent with the articles about the dead former queens of Spain and consistent instead with the article about the living former Belgian queen? Surtsicna (talk) 21:38, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Because they're both living. GoodDay (talk) 21:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You are going in circles instead of explaining. I am asking you why 2 women being alive is more important than 25 women being queens of the same country. Surtsicna (talk) 21:50, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not up to just you or me. That's what the RFC is for, to allow others to give their input. They'll either agree with you or me. As for your question, it's to create consistency with other living former queen consorts. GoodDay (talk) 22:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You are again not explaining why consistency with other living former queens is more important than consistency with other Spanish queens, living or otherwise. One would expect such an explanation since you are the one proposing a change. Surtsicna (talk) 22:20, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I already explained it. You're merely not accepting it, now stop Bludgeoning me. GoodDay (talk) 22:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No. The proposed change would in no way improve the lead or the article. See also MOS:FULLNAME and 24 other articles about Spanish queens consort. Starting it with "Queen Sofia of Spain" necessarily leads to redundancy in the lead (defining Queen Sofia of Spain as queen of Spain) and/or casual misogyny (defining the subject as someone's wife). Surtsicna (talk) 21:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Misogyny? Is that the reason you're opposing the proposed change? GoodDay (talk) 14:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a reason. Surtsicna (talk) 17:59, 13 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No on the basis that consistency within Spain is more important. As far as I can see common name supports this and the point about casual misogyny is well made.  Note to GoodDay, if you check my talk page I was invited here by a BOT as I volunteered to review history articles, I don't want to trigger any "chills" :-) -Snowded TALK 04:54, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We should be consistent with all living former queen consorts. But, as mentioned before, I always accept the results of any Rfc, no matter what the result. Note, if the result is to stay with the current intro (and infobox heading) here?, then I wouldn't oppose bringing the other living former queen consorts into line in that style. Besides, Paola is nearly 83 & in increasing poor health & upon her demise, her article title will likely be changed. GoodDay (talk) 13:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No, as Surtsicna points out this is consistent with other Spanish queen consorts. Vici Vidi (talk) 08:38, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * But it's not consistent with other living queen consorts. GoodDay (talk) 14:12, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No per opposing arguments. ~ HAL  333  23:23, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Chose as you wish. But many sources call her Queen Sofia or just Sofia. GoodDay (talk) 12:57, 7 August 2020 (UTC)


 * No, the most commonly used name in references and consistency within a country are more important than consistency with living examples from other countries. Different countries have different monarchies! This does not need to be consistent with the current Empress of Japan just as it does not need to be consistent with the current Queen of the Belgians. &lt; Atom ( Anomalies ) 04:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What is she called in Spain & international news, then? Queen Sofia, or just Sofia. GoodDay (talk) 12:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Letizia has no "former name". Her name has not changed once since she was born. The official website calls her "Su Majestad la Reina, doña Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano". It would be very constructive if you stopped peddling the story of a "former name". As I have told you, Spanish women do not change their name upon marriage. Surtsicna (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Why then, have you not opened an RM on that article? According to you, it's named wrong. GoodDay (talk) 13:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The international sources I've come across like Royalty news, call her Queen Sofia. GoodDay (talk) 13:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
If the trend continues towards no, then I'll have to make changes to the Queen Fabiola of Belgium article. GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

, &, should we then open an RM on this article's title, if it's considered to be wrong? GoodDay (talk) 14:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have not seen anyone suggest that the article title is wrong. Surtsicna (talk) 18:35, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You've no objections, to the lead & infobox heading being Sofía? GoodDay (talk) 20:00, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think anything is wrong here, it is just a matter of consistency. Vici Vidi (talk) 06:44, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

"Sofía of Spain" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sof%C3%ADa_of_Spain&redirect=no Sofía of Spain] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:54, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Is she officially Queen Mother?
Hasn't Sofía been given the official title of Queen Mother? Surely some of our users with Greek or Spanish heritage must have seen something on that? SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)