Talk:Queen of Hearts (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)

Untitled
Why is Lewis Carroll denominated as a "mathematician" in this article?


 * Because he was a mathematics lecturer at Oxford for 26 years - it was his principle occupation. Apepper 11:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone get a picture of the Queen of Hearts from the book (John Tenniel's illustration) and/or from the Disney cartoon? I think they would be more beneficial to the article than the current one of Miss Piggy as the QOH. I think both the original drawing and the Disney one are what most people remember.Rt66lt 17:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gotten one from the original book.Rt66lt 17:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

-In the 16 years since this request, has anyone attempted this?

John Tenniel inspiration for Queen of Hearts image
I've been told that Tenniel based his image of the Queen of Hearts on a stained glass window in Long Melford Church, Suffolk - I took a photograph of the window and this is below:

To my eyes, it is similar but can anyone provide a citation for this window being used? If so I'll add the image to the article.

Apepper 11:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * On a similar note, under the "Origins" section it says that Sir John Tenniel's illustration was "clearly" based on Queen Victoria, and that Dodgeson/Carroll intended it that way. I have no doubt that there are supposed to be overtones of Queen Victoria in there, but was it really Carroll's decision to make it so? I have no doubt that he had a say in what the illustrations should and should not depict, and which ones should appear in his books, but Tenniel was a celebrated satirist in his day, and I can't help thinking it was more his intention that adults should see the resemblance than Carroll's...

Not050 (talk)Not050Not050 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that under the "Origins" section that it should also be noted how the queen resembles the queen from the Queen of Hearts poem (the knave stole some tarts etc.). If I remember correctly, Alice quotes some of the poem during the trial in the first book. Pallid Sky (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Origins
We need a realible source for this addition:
 * The Queen probably symbolizes Queen Margaret of the House of Lancaster. During the Hundred Years’ War, also known as the War of the Roses, a red rose was the symbol of House Lancaster.  Their rivals, the House of York, had a white rose for their symbol.  This explains the gardeners' painting the white roses red.

I've seen several documentaries that liken the Queen of Hearts in the story to Queen Victoria, but I am unable to find any source (reliable or otherwise) that makes any connection to Queen Margaret. I agree the red and white roses in the story might be a reference to the War of the Roses, but I think we need a source before we start adding original research to the article.

Although I have heard/read about the Queen Victoria similarities, I've done some quick searching and haven't been able to find an online source to support this claim either.
 * The Queen is clearly a caricature of Queen Victoria, with elements of reality that Dodgson felt correctly would make her at once instantly recognisable to parents reading the story to children, and also fantastical enough to make her unrecognisable to children.


 * Her identity was hammered home for the purposes of popular culture in the 1966 live-action film, where she and the King of Hearts are portrayed without any attempt at fantasy, or disguise as to their true natures or personality.

I've temporarily changed the wording on the article page to be more neutral and to give other editors time to cite any sources they may have about either of these claims. If no reliable sources can be provided, I'm going to recommend that the entire section should be removed, lest we begin to invite editors to start adding every queen throughout history because "They both wore crowns" or "They both were married to a King", etc., etc. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 01:21, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if this qualifies as 'a reliable source' but there is an article by CW Giles, Punch, August 15, 1928 comparing the Queen of Hearts to Queen Margaret (and the Alice books to the Wars of the Roses.) You can see the relevant section of the article here: http://www.alice-in-wonderland.net/explain/alice808.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.214.128 (talk) 09:30, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Witch archetype
The character of the Red Queen and the Queen of Hearts are both better described as archetypes. Don't see that word here at all. Sadly this understanding is not directly proposed at all in this page. Robert Bly has an excellent lecture on the witch energy, Baba Yaga, and presents an encounter between a male encountering a witch and how to survive it. It would best be used to describe archetypes and especially these feminine dark archetypes- found in women of course, but also the source of significant concern in men- the care and maintenance especially! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4E02:9580:D9D4:6281:CF46:6AD5 (talk) 07:51, 5 November 2021 (UTC)