Talk:Queen of Heaven (antiquity)

Untitled
Some long Jeremiah pre-Christian text kept showing up in Queen of Heaven, so I moved it here because it is more suitable to this period. However, I don't see the relevance of this long text in either article. Feel free to trim it away. History2007 (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Some sources - this article needs some work
Prophets and Daniel, Volume 8 By Athalya Brenner discusses Anat and others. Judith Hadley, the author of that paper also wrote The cult of Asherah in ancient Israel and Judah: evidence for a Hebrew goddessBy Judith M. Hadley. There's also the John Day book I've referenced. Dougweller (talk) 17:25, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Herodotus, spread of the worship of Isis after Alexander's conquest, etc
What Witt says about Herodotus is (p20) "For Herodotus Isis was apparently no more than a fertility goddess, identical with Demctcr (PL 7). Two centuries later, when she was taken across the 'Great Green' (as the Egyptians called th( waters of the Mediterranean) she acquired other attributes as hi: Pelagia.*3 Already in the Ptolemaic age she was known at Philae as Isis of the Innumerable Names.** Now, however, she wa< identified with all the purely anthropomorphic goddesses of the Graeco-Roman Pantheon." I'm not sure that justified "whose influence was so widespread by that point, ", this is not saying she was worshipped in any way that can be described as widespread.

On page 47 he writes "Arrian, who tells the story, ascribes the lay-out of the city to Alexander himself. In the plan besides a commercial quarter were included temples for the various gods, both those of Greece and of 'Isis of Egypt1. The specific mention of the Egyptian goddess is a reminder of the importance of Isis Pharia, whose shrine was to arise on the island famous also for its lighthouse in die Bay of Alexandria (Pis. ij, 60-62).7 The choice of such a site for the capital of a new empire showed consummate skill and imagination. Lying at the very heart of a domain that stretched from the upper reaches of the Nile in the south to the Danube in the north, Alexandria was immediately able to become not merely the world's trading centre but also the spiritual emporium of science, philosophy and religion. From the harbour where the Pharian goddess held sway, ships were to sail forth, some bearing her name, to the most distant parts of the Alexandrian Empire, helping in the world-wide diffusion of the Egyptian seaport's material and cultural wealth. "

And on p. 48 "wite s father, and who was herself depicted sometimes as Isis. It was due to the Ptolemies that the eastern Mediterranean became for a time virtually an Egyptian sea, that the gods of the Nile appeared along the shores of Asia Minor and in the Aegean, and that splendid temples were built on the holy island of Isis with its Abaton at Philae. The Ptolemies explored the Red Sea and, ultimately, like the Venetian Doges of a later age, sent their ships into the Indian Ocean. Trade links were established with the growing power of Rome through an important route from Alexandria to Puteoli. The faith of Egypt was thus effectively carried far and wide throughout the Mediterranean and even beyond."

I think that justifies the edit and the statements in the article Isis "after the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world"., and I don't see the justification for its removal with an edit summary " A simple search on Google books shows that Witt's book contains no such statement.". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 19:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Biblical Discussion
The section on the Bible is very limited and really deserves a separate article: Queen of Heaven (Bible). A disambiguation page could then be used for the three discussions related to this title. Grantmidnight (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Hebrew
As a Hebrew speaker, I don't think the reference in Jeremiah is correct. I am nearly sure that it should be pronounced "melecheth hashamayim" - meaning work (worship) of the sky, and not queen of the sky. This completely changes the meaning - Jeremiah is talking about pagan worship in general and not a specific goddess. If anyone is more knowledgeable than I am I would be glad to be corrected. Optimus05 (talk) 17:05, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Just for your information, reputable scholars would disagree with your conclusion, and they resolve the meleket versus malakat discrepancy(ies) by comparing early sources with historical evidence for the Queen of Heaven.. E.g. Charles Feinberg states, "Some fifty-two MSS and certain commentators prefer to read an א (') after the first syllable of מְלֶ֫כֶת (meleket, queen), giving the meaning of "work," i.e., the host of the stars of heaven, without a particularization of one deity. Apart from the context here and in 44:17-19, the fact that Ishtar was known by the Babylonian title sharrat shame ("Queen of Heaven"), goddess of the planet Venus. LXX is inconsistent in rendering στρατιᾷ (stratia, "army") here but βασιλισσα (basilissa, "queen") in the parallel passage in 44:17-19, 25 = LXX 51:17-19, 25," in the Expositors Bible Commentary. Eerdmans Bible Dictionary also links the 'Queen of Heaven' to Ishtar, stating "The LXX (Jer. 44 [LXX ch. 51]) and Vulg. (Gk. he basilissa tou aouranou; Lat. Regina caeli) show that MT Heb. meleket should be understood as a Masoretic distortion of malka "queen." Herbert Cohn agrees that a section of ancient Jewish peoples worshipped a female deity, and writes that they had worshipped malkat [Queen of Heaven] in the past. (JoRaj214 12:47, 23 March 2015 (UTC))

Thank you. I have also been looking a little deeper in to the subject, and reading medieval jewish commentary on the book of Jeremiah (Rashi, Radak, etc.). I found that they understand מלכת השמים in a variety of ways - the sun, a bright star, or worship of the sky (as I originally thought). In addition, the Targum Jonathan (an Aramaic translation of the Nevi'im) translates it as "כוכבת שמיא", literally "star of the sky". I accept the fact the these aren't exactly historical sources strictly speaking, however they are early sources (especially the Targum Jonathan) that should be acknowledged. I think that perhaps it should be mentioned at the end of the section about the Hebrew Bible that there are other ways of understanding the text. Optimus05 (talk) 17:42, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

(As requested, Optimus05). Each commentary is going to differ (e.g. by using source material a commentator might find helpful to his or her position). This may be considered a generalization; in your case without having read (that particular portion of Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki or Rabbi David Kimhi's work) it, I cannot discuss the portion you're referring to. Please quote specifics from your sources. Having said, that in my humble opinion, it is absolutely crucial to compare the word usage in the commentary with the historical usage of the time(s). In this case the geo-political and religious history of his society. Some would take the Targum Yonatan to refer to interpolation rather than a proper exegetical application. However, I'm not convinced of this, since I haven't read the specifics on that Targum. Yet, as I have mentioned previously the term "Queen of Heaven" was used in Jeremiah's society to refer to foreign deities. To place this meaning 'in' the previously mentioned references (Jer. 7:18, 44:17-19, 25) makes sense because it appears Jeremiah is referring to a female deity in specific (Jer. 44:19), the variance of the ״אײnot withstanding. JoRaj214 03:05, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

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Merge
Proposal to merge with Queen of Heaven Temerarius (talk) 02:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I'd disagree with that. While there may be some interesting connections with the two concepts (and I'm sympathetic to the idea that the Catholics drew upon this older idea), Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" is still considered as a separate concept from the ancient goddesses with that title and the articles should remain separate unless consensus changes. Mr. UnderhiIl (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

"Most biblical scholars tend to regard these goddesses as one, especially under the title 'Queen of heaven', but this view is considered to be very outdated."
The tail end of this statement is unattributed and without citation. I added the citation needed tag as I would like to see the source of this claim and an explanation for how it represents an academic majority. Mr. UnderhiIl (talk) 18:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)