Talk:Queen of Mauritius

1968-1992?
Seems like a companion article Monarchy in Mauritius is in order, to cover the period prior to becoming a Commonwealth Realm, when Mauritius had a monarch, but it wasn't of Mauritius, since Mauritius was a dependency, not independent. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 00:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * No; because Mauritius prior to 1968 was a Crown Colony; i.e. it was British territory, not a sovereign independent state. Thus; it had no 'monarch', let alone'monarchy'; and didn't until 1968. Prior to 1968; Mauritius was just a territory of a foreign power. After 1968, it had its own Queen, titled 'Queen of Mauritius'; it just happened that the Queen of Mauritius happened to be simultaneously Queen of the United Kingdom (and several other countries) in a personal union. Colonies and dependent territories do not have monarchs or any other type of Head of State for that matter because they are not sovereign entities in their own right. Therefore, any page regarding a non-existent 'Monarchy of Mauritius' prior to 1968 would not only be a content fork, it would be a whole load of original research as well. (Because Mauritius did not have a monarchy prior to 1968.) Mauritius before 1968 no more had a 'monarch' than Puerto Rico has a President or French Guiana has a President. -- JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:28, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Which is why I said a companion article called Monarcy in Mauritius. Since the various monarchs (King of France, King of UK/Queen of UK) were part of the monarchal system to which the dependent territory of Mauritius was part of. Which is why we have articles like Monarchy in Ontario, where Ontario is not a sovereign state either. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 22:15, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

-No; but it is a federal state, because Canada is a federal country. Each of the Canadian provinces shares the sovereignty of Canada; which is vested in the monarchy, and thus each has legally its own crown (as do each of the Australian states too), in a federation under the (not physical) Canadian Crown, which is a very different concept from that of a crown colony, which is a non-sovereign territory that does not have its own crown, let alone its own monarchy. None of the Crown Colonies, nor any of the British Dependent/Overseas Territories have ever been part of the 'monarchical system'; whereas the Canadian Provinces and Australian states most certainly are. There is also the legal concept of 'the Queen in right of Ontario', whereas there was never a legal concept of 'the Queen in right of Mauritius' prior to 1968 (though there was 1968-1992), and neither is there for any of the current British Overseas Territories. The Queen of the UK is not, for example 'Queen of the Falkland Islands'; nor is there such a concept as 'the Queen in right of the Falkland Islands' There is no 'sovereign' of any of these territories in their own right, and to speak of a 'monarch' of them makes as much constitutional sense as having an article dedicated to a non-existent 'Monarchy of Lancashire' for example.

More to the point; what would be the purpose of such an article? The Queen did not hold a separate throne and crown in right of Mauritius from her role as Queen of the UK prior to 1968 (so therefore, she wasn't Queen of Mauritius prior to 1968.) like she did after 1968, so what is the point in creating an article about it? It also reflects a fundamental misunderstanding about how monarchies work and how they relate to the concept of sovereignty. Prior to 1968; there was no monarchy in Mauritius; either 'of', 'in', or anything else for that matter. It was simply British territory, and before that Dutch and French territory, and could not conclude treaties with other countries, declare war on other countries, join international organisations, cede or annex territory or anything else a sovereign country can do, which Mauritius, and by extention the Queen of Mauritius (as all treaties, declarations of war, etc. in any; yes,any monarchy are concluded in the name of the monarchy and in theory by them) certainly could in the period from 1968 to 1992.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Royal Standard
The Queen had a personal flag for use in Mauritius. See the flag on the front of the Queen's car here, here and this video during her visit to Mauritius in 1972. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Ormond (talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I am unable to see anything at any of those sources about a royal standard. DrKay (talk) 14:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The third picture at this source here clearly looks like the Royal Standard. Peter Ormond (talk) 15:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It is only visible at the first link in your post at 12:38 by clicking on the image and expanding it. It was not obvious that you expected me to go to a page of images and click on every one of them until one of the images proved to be relevant. DrKay (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * We may have to call it a flag. It is not clear to me whether it is a royal standard or a personal flag. In the UK, the two are different but the ones used in the non-UK countries look like a mish-mash of the two concepts. The encircled E is a personal motif used on a personal flag. A royal standard is a banner of arms. This flag is a banner of arms defaced by a personal motif, so is it a banner of arms or a personal flag or both or neither? DrKay (talk) 15:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The Royal standards of Canada also follow the pattern of a banner of arms defaced by a personal motif, and are referred as Royal standards. Peter Ormond (talk) 15:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Only on wikipedia. If you look at the sources listed in the article, they are all called "personal flags". DrKay (talk) 15:47, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Capacities
When the Queen visits foreign countries she may do so in single or multiple capacities. For example, in 2010 she addressed the United Nations as 'Head of State of the United Kingdom and 15 other Member States, as well as Head of the 54-member Commonwealth'. When she visited the United States in 1959, it was 'her first, and only, foreign visit' in her capacity as Queen of Canada. She occasionally makes private foreign trips. I see no evidence in the sources provided that her visit to Mauritius was in her capacity as queen of Mauritius as opposed to her capacity as queen of the United Kingdom, or all the realms, or as head of the Commonwealth, or as all three, or a combination, or none of them. DrKay (talk) 07:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

What about her use of her personal flag in right of Mauritius, which was designed for that visit?

If she was visiting in her capacity of Queen of the UK, she'd have used the Royal Standard of the UK, surely?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know. But the official website seems to think that these are personal flags that represent her personally not the country and that they are only used when she is in that country. DrKay (talk) 19:52, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

They certainly seem to be used in exactly the same way as the Royal Standard is in the UK, as well as in arms form at the top of the windshield of the car in which she is travelling.

Queen Elizabeth II's Personal Flag, (the blue one with the 'E' cypher alone within a wreath) represents her personally, whether in a commonwealth republic, another monarchy not in a personal union like Malaysia or Eswatini, or in a commonwealth realm that does not have a specific flag designed for her in right of it, and of course, de facto, it has come to be used in her role as Head of the Commonwealth at Commonwealth Heads of Government Meetings, although it is not de jure her flag in right of that particular role.

Also, at least the Canadian flag has been used to represent her in her role as Queen of Canada: at the remembrance ceremonies held in France to celebrate the anniversary of VE day, her Canadian flag was flown, as she was specifically representing Canada on this specific occasion, and not the UK.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think your claim in the last paragraph is unsupportable, but you may have just got confused with a ceremony at Vimy. DrKay (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

A nation's parliament can only be opened by its head of state. Mauritius was a Commonwealth realm that time, with the Queen as head of state. And the fact that she opened the Mauritian Parliament in Port Louis in 1972, is clear indication that she visited as Queen of Mauritius. And if she'd come as Queen of the United Kingdom, she would have used the UK Royal Standard, or if as Head of the Commonwealth, she would have used her personal flag.

An except from the article Flags of Elizabeth II: the [personal] flag started to be used in place of the British royal standard when the Queen visits Commonwealth countries where she is not head of state and for Commonwealth occasions in the United Kingdom; it came to symbolise the Queen as Head of the Commonwealth.

So, the fact that she used a distinct Mauritian standard clearly states that she visited as Queen of Mauritius.

Peter Ormond (talk) 06:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia isn't the place for personal opinions. Per Verifiability and No original research, all content must be explicitly supported by Reliable sources. DrKay (talk) 07:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This video from Associated Press (which is considered a reliable source), at 1:22, says "just a very excited crowd of Mauritians, greeting their head of state". (This video is of the 1972 visit) Peter Ormond (talk) 07:15, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * So? There's no doubt she was the Queen of Mauritius. We need sources that support or refute the contentious material not the material that all the sources and every editor is agreed on. DrKay (talk) 07:33, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

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