Talk:Rǫgnvaldr Óláfsson (fl. 1164)

Harald who?
I have a question also raised at Talk:Kings of Mann and the Isles: Does anyone know why Ragnall I Haraldsson, apparently the brother of Godred II Olafsson aka Godred the Black, is not Ragnall Olafsson, or who the Harald is supposed to be? Ben  Mac  Dui  20:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Weird. Look at the article's history. It seems to have started out as an article for the Ragnvald that was Olaf the Black's elder-brother (even though the article originally said "younger brother"!). Everything seems to have gotten muddled up in part because of the complex numbering system that editors were using a couple years ago. There was an Ragnvald Haraldsson that killed Olaf the Red in 1153 (Ragnvald's father, Harald, was a brother of Olaf). So it's like the article has become a mixture of three different men (even though it only consists of one sentence!).


 * The ODNB article on Godred the Black doesn't mention Ragnvald Olafsson reigning as king. It doesn't actually mention Somerled reigning as king either. It says that after Olaf the Red's death, Godred returned from Norway, "having done homage to the king of Norway, was acclaimed as king of Man and the Isles, and ruled the kingdom until his death". Have you got access to the ODNB, I can email you the three bios that someone sent me a while ago, that way we'll be on the same page.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It's getting more confusing, User:Againme just made "Ragnall V Olafsson" yesterday. So what happens with this article?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If you send me the articles I'll have a look. 09:35, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I just sent you an email.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:03, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The ODNB helps resolve this by calling him Godred's half-brother, although the name used here would pre-suppose that somehow Godred's mother Affreca had another marriage to a "Harald". Surely much more likely that they had the same father? More research needed. Ben  Mac  Dui  12:57, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems to me was they likely had the same father too. There's a previewable book on GoogleBooks called Handbook of British Chronology. It's got a list of Manx kings, and on page 63 it mentions this guy, in brackets, as an illegitimate son of Olaf. It doesn't give him a numeral at all, but it give's Godred's son the numeral "I", and further down the line Olaf the Black's son of the same name the numeral "II". If we regard this guy as "king", then it goes against that particular book's numeration of the Ragnalls of the Crovan family. The title "Ragnall V Olafsson" is ridiculous to my eyes. I'd like to get rid of the conflicting numeration systems in the titles and just difference these guys by patronyms. We've got three languages to choose from. We could title this guy's article "Ragnall mac Amlaíb", and rename Ragnall V Olafsson to "Ragnvald Olafsson" or "Raghnall mac Amhlaibh". It'd be better than using hybrid names like "Ragnall Olafsson" and "Ragnall Haraldsson".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed about the general principle. I think the numerals may be a specifically Manx thing that don't really work for the wider "kingdom", even if they do for Man itself. It might be good to have a system of some kind, rather than ad hoc choices. Worth raising at Talk:Kings of Mann and the Isles? Ben   Mac  Dui  09:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I had another look around and the only additional info I could find was at www.qualtrough.org/history/Kings-of-Man.pdf, which just calls him "Reginald". I can only assume that the sole source of primary information is the Chronicle of Man in which he is referred to as Reginaldus. No sign whatever of a Harald or Haraldsson. We now have a Rognvaldr Oláfsson and I am reluctant to use Ragnall mac Amlaíb as his father is much better known as Olaf. "Reginald" is, I think, absurd. Suggestions: On balance I prefer (5) as the best of a bad lot. It uses the Norse name, which McDonald prefers for all of them in this period, avoids an unusual usage (King of...), and he may never have been crowned in any meaningful sense. There is a precedent of sorts in the admittedly clumsy Amlaíb mac Gofraid (died 941). Ben  Mac  Dui  17:30, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Rognvaldr, King of Man
 * 2) Rognvaldr (fl. 1164)
 * 3) Ragnall, King of Man
 * 4) Ragnall (fl. 1164)
 * 5) Rognvaldr Olafsson (fl. 1164)
 * Better still,
 * Rognvaldr of Man per the similarly obscure Ruadhri of Bute. Ben   Mac  Dui  12:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * At least on GoogleBooks the terms "Rognvald[r] of Man[n]" seem to refer to Ragnvald Godredsson. We'll never win. I like number 5 the best, but I don't have any problem with "Rognvaldr of Man". I think we could use a template like this for the latter title
 * As long as we make it immediately clear that this article is about a different man than the latter Rognvaldrs we'll be ok. There are heaps of templates here: Template:Distinguish.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Just realised that Richard Oram in Domination and lordship: Scotland 1070-1230 uses "Rognvald Ólafsson".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I've gone and changed the name to "Rögnvaldr I Óláfsson", since there is already a "Rögnvaldr Óláfsson", who I have renamed with "III". Kjhskj75 (talk) 14:59, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Ragnalds
Ragnald of the Isle of Man is a dab page with these entries:


 * Ragnald I Godredson (1000–1005) (see King of Mann and the Isles)
 * Ragnald II of the Isle of Man (see Lord of the Isles)
 * Ragnald III of the Isle of Man, reigned in 1164 while the island was an independent kingdom
 * Ragnald IV of the Isle of Man (d. 1229) reigned 1187–1226
 * Ragnald V of the Isle of Man, reigned 1248–1249 while a vassal of Norway

We now have as articles:


 * Rögnvaldr I Óláfsson - currently this article, ex Haraldsson
 * Rögnvaldr III Óláfsson - plain old Rögnvaldr Óláfsson until recently.

The questions that arise would seem to be
 * 1)  is the dab page accurately identifying individuals?
 * 2)  are these appropriate common names?
 * 3)  if they are not, what should we call these articles?
 * 4) are the dab page descriptions accurate?

1) Is the dab page accurately identifying individuals?
 * a) Ragnald I Godredson is presumably Ragnall mac Gofraid
 * b) Ragnald II of the Isle of Man might be Ragnall mac Somairle, although the edit that created these numerals also added this article as a see also.
 * c) Ragnald III is currently Rögnvaldr I Óláfsson
 * d) Ragnald IV is Ragnvald Godredsson
 * e) Ragnald V is (as you would expect?) now Rögnvaldr III Óláfsson

2) Are these appropriate common names?

Not in my view. I am not aware of relevant historical sources using this nomenclature.

3) What should we call these articles? In a perfect world there would be agreement about language use but there isn't and I for one can't be bothered making a (most likely doomed) call for consistency. Its a complex period in an area where several different languages were used.

a) I think the dab page should list:
 * Ragnall mac Gofraid
 * Ragnall mac Somairle (assuming it is he)
 * Ragnald III - see below
 * Ragnvald Godredsson
 * Ragnald V - see below

b) We need to disambiguate the two Rögnvaldr Óláfssons. See immediately above for discussion of Rögnvaldr Óláfsson no 1. Ben   Mac  Dui  19:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Some options, with the earlier Ron first.


 * 1) Rognvaldr, King of Man
 * 2) Rognvaldr (fl. 1164)
 * 3) Ragnall, King of Man
 * 4) Ragnall (fl. 1164)
 * 5) Rognvaldr Olafsson (fl. 1164)
 * 6) Rognvald Óláfsson  [without the 'r' per Oram]

and


 * 1) Rögnvaldr Óláfsson
 * 2) Ragnall mac Amlaíb
 * 3) Rognvaldr Óláfsson (fl. 1249)

- Actually a case can be made for 2 more Ragnalds (making 7): Ragnall ua Ímair (listed in Powicke:Chronology) and the Ragnald Haraldsson who murdered Olaf I Godredsson in 1153, and who may be considered to have reigned for a short while.

Generally in cases like this we should avoid roman numerals (which are an anachronism anyway) - we just have to find a way to give them all different unambiguous names. Kjhskj75 (talk) 23:17, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree about the numerals. I think that main 'Ragnald of the Isle of Man' dab page does more harm than good at the moment. I think the best way to differentiate these two particular 'sons of Olaf' above is through dates. So a patronymic and either a floruit or death-date. Since it's not entirely clear when the first Ron died "(fl. 1164)" could be his date; and since we know the second 'Ron' died in May 1249 "(d. 1249)" could be his date. I don't know which form of the name to use; we could use any of them. In a case like this the date is more important I think.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * OK - how about:
 * Rognvaldr Olafsson (fl. 1164)
 * Rognvaldr Olafsson (d. 1249)


 * I don't mind diacritics in the articles although I find them a nuisance when searching for the article, but I am not attached either.


 * Quite happy for Ragnall ua Ímair to go on the dab page. Ragnald Haraldsson isn't mentioned at Olaf I Godredsson, so probably not a red link. Ben   Mac  Dui  08:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

OK by me. Which language form should be used? Note that the "r" at the end of Rognvaldr is just a grammatical suffix, like "us" in Latin, so should be dropped unless you want the Norse form. With English you have a choice of Ragnall, Ragnald, Ronald or Reginald. I prefer Ragnald. Kjhskj75 (talk) 16:54, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I like Rognvaldr since it's closest to the standard Old Norse form.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, Rognvaldr it is unless more views are expressed soon. Ben   Mac  Dui  07:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

OK I have now gone and changed them according to your suggestions. Kjhskj75 (talk) 20:58, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

It might be best to try and sort out the Ragnalds first [&] there are various other articles with similar names. These include:

Olaf Guthfrithson
The dab (Olaf Guthfrithson) page lists:
 * Amlaíb mac Gofraid (died 941) - moved to Olaf III Guthfrithson with this diff
 * Olaf I Godredsson
 * Olaf the Black

Have not yet notified relevant talk pages - but it might more sense to have the discussion at the dab page anyway as this has nothing to do with Rögnvaldrs of any hue. Ben  Mac  Dui  07:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Discussion now live at Talk:Olaf Guthfrithson. Ben   Mac  Dui  20:10, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Godred Olafsson

 * Godred II Olafsson Ben   Mac  Dui  19:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)