Talk:R.A.B./Archive 1

Facts
There is the British politician RAB Butler - which could lead to the obvious dreadful pun (any HP fanfic writers wishing to use this idea can have it).
 * Fact:

As we know Hogwarts to be located in Scotland, is it not more likely that it was actually Rab C. Nesbitt?--82.3.32.73 23:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * In Response:

If RAB is indeed Regulus Black his identity will be revealed in the Dutch translations of hbp. The dutch translator has translated the Black family name into Zwart(= Dutch for black)in the previous books, therefore his initials would become RAZ. The Dutch translation is expected at the end of August. -- 22:00, 21 July 2005 YR
 * Fact:

Assumptions
R.A.B. thought there is only 1 horcruxe. It means he had a different source than harry had. nevertheless, from the moments I saw the initials I thought it would be Regulus Black. It would also fit the plot-since Harry will defintly go to his inherited house. I believe that if he won't find the locket in there, he would probably find it with mundungous, or with one of his costumers.
 * Assumption:

I think RAB may be a former Death Eater, he calls Voldemort,"Dark Lord"
 * Assumption:

It should, of course, be noted that RAB must have had some knowledge of how the trap was set, as he apparently was able to either re-create the potion Dumbledore drank, or flout the whole trap itself. Also, the 'I' instead of we isn't definite evidence, as it 'I' may have stolen it after someone else drank the potion for 'me'.
 * Assumption:

Kreacher Theory
-I think it should be noted Kreacher could have accompanied Regulus to get the locket. He would obey his master's orders to keep giving him the potion (which may have been deadly, Regulus knew he would die soon after and Dumbledore was in pretty bad shape afterwards) and I doubt Regulus would consider him a partner in this act, and as such not bother to say "we" in the note he left. --203.61.125.41 20:16, 21 July 2005 (UTC)david
 * Theory:

Speaking of Kreacher, I would like to comment on the "Two people" theory that he was involved in retrieving the original locket. It is possible that he went with Regulus Black, and was instructed either to drink the potion or force Black to drink the potion. Since he is considered "property" and sub human, it makes sense not to mention him as an accomplice. If he was made to drink the potion, it also makes sense that he would have been denied water for his thirst and therefore the Corpses in the water would not have been activated. (there is no sign of burnt body parts on the island where the basin is.
 * Theory

Just some thoughts...Shifter55 22:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Borgin & Burkes Theory
Maybe it was either Mr. Borgin or Mr. Burkes, from that store in Knockturn Alley. Both have extensive knowledge of Dark objects, seeing as how they own a pawn shop specialising in things the stores in Diagon Alley would never stock. Though I doubt they are actually Death Eaters, they do have Dark sympathies, and one or even both of them could be responsible for the swap. Only hazarding a guess, but it's possible.
 * Theory:

Knockturn Alley... Borgin & Burke's... Dark Arts shop... First mentioned in Chamber of Secrets... Former employer of Tom Riddle from which he disappeared under mysterious circumstances... Two owners whose last names fit the profile... The place that facilitated Voldemort finding his heirloom locket... Things that make you go hmmm.
 * Theory:

The first name of one of the shop owners is given, and it doesn't fit. Can't remember which.
 * In Response:

Caractacus Burke. Could be Borgin, though.
 * In Response:


 * Borgin was scared of Draco Malfoy, I'd doubt he'd want to face Voldemort.

Regulus Black Theory
I think it should be mentioned that J.K.R has a style that she does not introduce non-important characters in her books, nor make mention of an event without it having a deeper meaning. This brings up an interesting point in book 6 about how Mundungus randomly appeared and was selling items from Black's house. Only to dissapear when Harry confronted him. My theory is that one of the items he took was the locket mentioned in book 5 that none of the OoTF wizards could open. It might be the same one that was suppost to be in the basin in book 6. Also, its def Regulus Black, there isnt going to be any new characters, and again a little of his back story was put in book 5 for no reason, other then to forshadow his larger part in book 6 and 7. --22:23, 7/22/05 Shifter55
 * Theory:


 * In Response:

I wouldn't be so sure; there are many other characters we've heard about who we only know by their nicknames. As for JKR's introduction of Regulus, it's those little things that create character elements for people like Sirius, and don't 'definitely' point towards any plot in the future.

MA: R.A.B. JKR: Ohhh, good. [All laugh.] JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory? MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. JKR: Have you now? MA: Uh-oh. [Laughter.] JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. MA: And perhaps, being Sirius’s brother, he had another mirror – JKR: [drums fingers on soda can] MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius’s mirror — JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.] MA: Let the record note that she has drummed her fingers on her Coke can in a very Mr. Burns-like way. [Laughter.] 
 * Relevant Interview (Speculation):

Lilly & Mundungus Theory
Mundungus raided the house of a dead friend. He probably also raided the Potter's house as well. Harry might need to track him down to find something from there. Kreacher and Regulus is brilliant! So is the idea of Mr. Borgin or Mr. Burkes! The idea of it being one of the tortured kids was cool but a bit more of a stretch if you ask me. I just want R.A.B. to stand for a title that Lilly Potter had. (like Snape had T.H.P) - Rob 7/22/05 4:12
 * Theory:


 * In Response:

Lily couldn't be R.A.B because she would have to defy Voldemort a fourth time and that would have meant Voldemort would have disproved Harry as the boy mentioned in the prophecy. And the letter refers to Voldemort as the Dark Lord and Lily wasn't a death eater so she wouldn't have called him that.


 * In Response:

We learn in HBP that the prophecy was only valid becasue Voldemort believed it was so, which disproves your first point. However, your second point remains valid and true.


 * In Response:

Actually, the Potter's house was completely destroyed, so that leaves almost no possibility that Mundungus raided it. It seems out of character for Lily Potter (Evans back then?) to write such a note; if she knew anything she would have alerted Dumbledore, who was revealed in Prisoner of Azkaban, to be in their confidence.


 * In Response:

Mundungus could have gotten there first before the opinion that everything was destroyed was even formed. Dumbledore certainly didn't know everything the Potter's knew or Sirius would never have gone to jail. Lilly could have figured out the Horcrux thing and just came back from doing it the day before she was killed before having the chance to tell anyone.


 * In Response:

Even if mundungus could have gotten there before the opinion was formulated, how would that have helped? The house would still have been completely destroyed by the Avada Kadavara, unless you think that it wasn't actually destroyed by the AK, but after, which is quite a stretch as Sirius was there shortly after, while the weeping Hargid removed the baby Potter from the ruins of the house.


 * In Response:

A locket can survive the complete destruction of a house! Maybe Mundungus has a magical item that immediately informed him when valuable things were "available" to be stolen.

No R.A.B Theory
My guess is: There is nobody with the initials R.A.B. This is only a last security trick of Lord Voldemort. Making the Finder believe its only a fake, he could save it from a potential destroying. And secondly: If Voldemort can split up his soul, why didn`t Dumbledore find another way? Perhaps not only extreme evil, but also extreme goodness and love can produce a horcrux. Believing in the Snape even as he was murdering himself was beyond imagination. And as there was no other item perhaps the Fake-Locket is the horcrux of Dumbledore?
 * Theory:

Those who are "good" feel that death is "but the next great adventure" and would not wish to flout death so, and I doubt one such as Dumbledore would choose that miserable spectral existance instead of "passing on." The arguments against your prediction are the same against Dumbledore and Sirius coming back as ghosts.
 * In Response:

Making the finder believe it is a fake is out of character for Lord Voldemort, whose arrogance led him to believe that no other knew about the cave or his Horcrux. He would not have openly declared that he had Horcruxes. Also, Voldemort would have only valued Slytherin's locket enough to pour his own soul into it.

Why do you think that this is out of character for Voldemort? He obviously thought that heavy protections on the cave and Horcrux *were* necessary, since that's what he set up. A protection scheme involving multiple levels only makes sense, and there's precedent in the series: the protections that were set up for the Philosopher's Stone. As Hermione noted there, a lot of very powerful wizards don't have a lot of common sense; a protection that depends on subtlety/trickery rather than raw power would be an effective addition.
 * In Response:

For "R.A.B." to be merely a ruse is at least as plausible as that it's Amy Benson, whose *only* qualifications are that she has two out of three initials and was victimised by Tom Riddle. Even Amelia Bones is a better candidate than Amy; at least she's known to be a competent wizard who's fought against Voldemort.

Two People?
What about RAB meaning two people, like R____ AND B_____? Dumbledore did say there had to be two people. The word 'I' is used 7 times. Superm401 | Talk 05:09, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theory:
 * In Response:

Actually it is three people. Turn the book upside down. R.A.B. upside down is a drawing of three pictures. The first being a side profile of a dog-badger/Hufflepuff (reading it rightside up is the "B"). Amelia Bones is the "B" she was in Hufflepuff and murdered in person by LV.

The second picture is a bird looking straight out at you-eagle/Ravenclaw (reading it rightside up is the "A") Haven't figured that one out yet.

The Third picture is a snake coiled around a stick/Slytheryn (reading it rightside up is the "R") Haven't figured that one out yet.

The Three People - Bold textBones,R and A. Bold textyet to be discovered.

A friend and I both checked these pictures out when we read this theory. Right away we saw the snake and the eagle. However no matter how hard we looked we could not see a dog/badger in the upside down B. Infact we both saw another bird, by covering up the last two letters you can see it. So it is possible that it is two birds and one snake. We have yet to figure out what a second bird could mean, or any of the animals for that matter but we will contuine to research it. But we would be happy to hear anymore ideas on it if anyone has any...69.40.22.45 02:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)merrick21

The Locket
There is a locket briefly mentioned in "Order of the Phoenix", it is said that among the things cleaned up was a locket that none of the orders members could open (curiously this is mentioned with no real purpose). While this fits into the style of J.K.R, she does mention things that later have greater meaning, there is a problem. The locket that was described in HBP, was distinctive with an elaborate "S" design, the way it is described eludes that anyone who looked at it would know that it was valuable .. as was the case when it was sold to B&B's... he could tell it was very old magic right away.
 * Theory:

It is possible that the locket was disguised or changed since it changed hands and fell into Tom Riddle's hands, but this doesn’t seem likely as it doesn't fit into his persona of being arrogant about his powers.

Also, in OOTP, it talks about how Kreacher would stay in the background and covertly take items that he thought were important... hoarding them in his little living space. It could be that he saved an item that is important like a locket.

Response: Both lockets are described as being *heavy* and *gold*---point in favor of the Slytherin locket being at 12 Grimmauld Place. Perhaps they didn't pay a lot of attention to it when they couldn't open it---with all the junk that was in the house, what's one little locket?
 * o)

Disprovals of Other Theories
Page 127 of Order of the Phoenix has Amelia Bones' full name, Amelia Susan Bones. We can rule her out for being R.A.B. - Jibbley 19:52, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Disproving the theory that Amelia Bones could be RAB with a first name starting with an R.


 * Disproving the theory that Amy Benson later became a witch:

It should be noted that if Amy Benson ,one of Riddles victims in the cave, later became a witch(with a first name starting with R) Wouldn't Dumbledore have also been looking for her the day he invited Riddle to Hogwarts?

Response: Not all witch and wizard children get into Hogwarts. For the longest time, Neville's family was unsure if he would get in. I would imagine that the schools only take the best and brightest each year. Amy's talent (if she indeed became a witch) may not have been apparent until later in life. OR what if she is a Muggle who devoted her life to tracking down Tom Riddle? We know he did something to frighten Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop in the cave (the every cave where he later hid the Horcrux) and they were never quite the same. What if this caused her to be more open and sensitive to magic?

HOWEVER, that does not mean that Amy was not a witch- she could easily have been a year younger or a year older than Tom Riddle, and as such she wouldn't have been taken in with Dumbledore. Alternatively, if her birthday was quivering just around the start of September then she may have been in different 'school years' at the orphanage than she would be at Hogwarts (since they probably won't use the same precise date), so even if she WAS the same age as Riddle then she might not have been invited to Hogwarts at the same year as him. ALSO, Amy may have been a muggle who spent her life tracking down Riddle.
 * Second Response: JK has made it clear that ALL people of magic talent get invited to Hogwarts, that was the point of Helga Hufflepuff- she wanted ALL people who can cast magic to be accepted (which was her 'quirk' that set her apart from the other founders of the school). Neville's family were afraid he wouldn't get in because they thought he might have no magic in him at all, they thought he might be a squib (heck, Neville alone should prove that they aren't taking the best and brightest each year).


 * Disproving the theory that Regelus Black was told how to get the locket by Voldemort:

Hello,

Black could not have been "close to Voldemort and told how to get the locket", as the letter mentions that R.A.B. "discovered" it. The book also mentions that Voldemort does not pursue close relations with his Death Eaters, and anyways, Voldemort would certainly not have confided something as important as his Horcruxes with anyone. Moltovivace 09:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * In Response:

You're right, he was not told how to get the locket. This does not mean he wasn't close to Voldemort (or rather, as close to Voldemort as anyone can claim to be, since he has no intimate relationships of any sort). He would have needed some information to learn of the existence of the Horcruxes in general (as well hints, perhaps, to the locket's location). He also needed superlative magical skills (possible in the dark arts?) to access the locket. If Dumbledore, who has been repeatedly called the Greatest Wizard of the Age, experienced so much difficulty in finding the locket, and, as another writer mentioned, needed Harry's help to keep drinking it, who was powerful enough to surpass him in this respect? Madeline 02:10, 19 July 2005 (EST)


 * In Response:


 * The letter mentions that R.A.B. discovered the secret of He-who-must-not-be-named's immortality, not the locket. It could also very well be the case that He-who-must-not-be-named did not confide his innermost secrets with any of his followers, an act of sheer stupidity. There could be another wizard whose name hasn't been revealed yet who stole the locket. It could be Black, or Bones, but for now, let us put the matter out of our minds. Sp@rkplug 21:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, had Regulus Black been the one to steal/discover the Horcrux, would he not have been important enough to be personally killed by Voldemort? ( said by Sirius in OotP)
 * Sirius assumes that Regulus wouldn't have been important enough to have been personally killed by Voldemort, but Sirius doesn't know taht for sure.


 * What about the potion? Are you going to forget that? Prehaps the horcrux wasn't as secure, but some one with enough brilliance saw how to trick Voldemort into weakening himself(that'd make his day...) and finding that he'd been robbed!


 * Voldemort would not do anything to weaken himself. He would drag some poor Death Eater in there with him, force him to drink the potion (maybe even by the Imperius Curse), and then grab the locket.  Heck, he might even kill the poor shmuck and turn him into an Inferi to join the rest of the corpses around the little island.  Voldie cares far too much for himself to do anything, at all, that might weaken him, at least on purpose.PantherFoxie 00:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Regulus Black theory
It's possible that R.A.B. is Regulus Black as many have suggested. Was a locket that could not be opened mentioned in Order of the Phoenix? {correct me if I'm wrong}.If it is indeed Regulus Black then he would have to have retrieved the locket at the time of Harry's birth {He was supposedly killed}. In the fear of being incorrect-It's a possibility.
 * Theory:

We know that there was an Alphard Black (he was the uncle who left an inheritance to Sirius)...could Sirius's brother possibly have been Regulus Alphard Black??? It's almost too obvious, though.
 * In Support:

I know I added this comment today about including the Regulus Black = R.A.B. theories and I still believe that uncited speculation has no place. However, I've been thinking that Superm401's attempts to add a properly-cited Regulus Black theory in the following edits are a good way of presenting this most popular theory. It might prevent a lot of anons and other folks from adding this theory without any citation, and it is, after all, properly cited (and from official channels, no less). The Regulus Black theory is, from what I've seen, the most popular theory for the identity of R.A.B. I'd like for his edits to be restored if we can come to a consensus. What do you think? I'm headed to bed now but I'd definitely like to see both sides of the fence in this discussion (especially Superm401, as the original author of this). --Deathphoenix 07:33, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment:

I agree, I think that's the best way to deal with it. I also think that the in-depth mention should be removed from the horcrux page, as I mentioned there, and it's possibly appropriate to mention it's the leading fan theory with an external link to an in-depth discussion elsewhere (in addition to the Rowling interview). -- Guybrush 17:30, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * In Response:

It is only logical to add the most plausible theory to the article, since this is, in all truth, a needless fork of Horcrux or Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince anyway. If there is to be an article about "R.A.B.", then all notable information should be included. --Sn0wflake 01:12, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * In Response:

I have introduced the information to the article as neutraly as possible and with the magazine articles I have read pos-HBP release in mind - which all point to Regulus as most likely to be R.A.B.. --Sn0wflake 01:22, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * In Response:

This version still has the "most fans believe" kind of speculation that we've been trying to avoid. I'm going to restore Superm401's edit, which still speculates, but has a citation as a response from J.K. Rowling. --Deathphoenix 21:39, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * In Response:
 * Done, but with minor changes. Feel free to edit this as you wish, but try to keep the speculation (and "most fans believe" kind of text) down to a minimum, please. --Deathphoenix 21:44, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The thing about the regulus Black theory is that it is the only theory which people have come up with which has a significant amount of credibility from things written in the books. The list above tries to mention other possibles but does not get across the feel from fan posts, where there are thousands of posts, roughly half saying it is Reg, and half saying why it is probably not one or other of the rest. Reg is absolutely definitely intended by JKR to be prime suspect, but it is possible she has slipped in a non-obvious surprise to add interest to book 7 after everyone has decided it must be regulus.
 * Comment:

He had a rich uncle whose name began with A. Classic black-family thinking, name son after rich uncle. He had access to family house which has now gone to Harry. JKR has said that one reason Order of the phoenix was so long, was simply to allow harry to visit places necessary in subsequent books. There was a locket. It got lost. Sirius did not recognise it, despite it being in a glass case in his family drawing room. Mundungus was nicking stuff, he has reappeared in HBP with no obvious explanation except to remind us that he has taken stuff from Grimauld place. There was a nutty house elf who would have been obliged to help Reg and then keep his mouth shut. Regulus was a death eater who fell out with Voldermort and (presumable) got killed, reason unknown. Reference to 'dark lord' in note suggests it was written by one of his (former) supporters. It has been implied that he joined because he was a fanatic pure-blood supporter. It has been suggested that the secret referred to in the note might be that Voldermort was a half-blood himself, thereby disillusioning Reg and making him fanatically opposed to Vol instead. A character who we know quite a bit about, but who has not really done anything yet. JKR likes surprises, so she would love another character turning from the bad to the good. No one at the end of the book thought that RB might be Regulus Black, brother of Harry's godfather. They could have checked his initial in 5 minutes. Either that would have clinched it or cancelled it at once...so obviously JKR did not allow them to do this. Lots of stuff. No other character has anything like the number of hints. I think this is supposed to be the easy puzzle to work out. Give it a bit of time and this will be the cast-iron favourite and have to be explained in the article in a reasons for/reasons against regulus format.Sandpiper 22:37, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm
Doesn't Rab Butler, a prominent 20th century British politician, at least warrant a mention somewhere on the page? 140.247.243.183 05:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

erm, no? Sandpiper 21:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Even Handed Explanation
I have just reorganised the page to make it an explanation of the importance of RAB and what has been happening to try to identify him (or her). The page only has two candidates for RAB, and in the interests of precision and correctness, should have more. However, any nominations for RAB should have some serious justification based upon known facts/actions in the books which make them possible candidates. Any additions should not contain complex argument, but straightforward facts. Alternatively, if there are book references suggesting someone is not RAB, then that would be appropriate too. Sandpiper 23:52, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Nominations based on "facts/actions in the books" are original research, which is prohibited by Wikipedia policy. I have removed all of them. Superm401 | Talk 04:41, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * If you cannot list characters actions under wiki policy, then every single article on fiction would have to be removed. Editors always make choices about which actions of a character are important to the plot, and which are not (and can be left out). This is essential to writing any such article, and is accepted practice. There is usually a consensus outside wiki which guides their choice, as is the case here. There is nothing here which has not been extensively analysed outside wiki, with the conclusions which are being reported. This whole subject has been the focus of very much more independant research elsewhere than is normal for any book. Despite my tone, this is not a beauty contest inviting people to make their own suggestions, it is inviting them to do what wiki editors normally do, to collect external facts and add them to an article. Sandpiper 15:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I quote wiki: No original research,

'However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research", it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.'

In this case, the article is seeking to collect and organise information from the primary source, which is the harry potter books, and in particular half blood prince. This is not 'original research' in the meaning of the wiki policy, as it says. Which parts of the article are not drawn from the source material, or reports of widely held views about RAB? The point about extending the article and inviting anyone to add other possibilities, is to ensure its completeness and openness in reporting the actual circumstances: both in references from the work (if any relevant points have been missed out, purely a factual collecting exercise), and in reporting of ongoing public debate. Evidence of the debate's wide interest is already included, in that JKR was even asked about this point a few days after the book was published. The first section seeks to explain the ongoing public debate and its conclusions in an even handed manner. The second to list relevant extracts from the book, arranged according to the characters to whom they relate. None of this is original, although it is certainly incomplete. Sandpiper 15:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)