Talk:R. A. B. Mynors/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 08:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Happy to review the article.

Summary

 * GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Comments to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I would include more details of his death, his legacy and his honours, as the lead section should “stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points.” (see MOS:LEAD).


 * I've restructured the lead and added a section on his legacy and recognition. Modussiccandi (talk) 23:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Specific comments:
 * Link classicist; Latin.
 * The link to medieval manuscripts should only link to ‘manuscripts’.
 * Unlink critical editions (already linked in the previous paragraph).
 * …Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. - small u in Universities.
 * ...the plurality of classical texts is derived. - I’m not clear what this means.
 * Most Latin and Greek texts have come down to us in the form of medieval manuscripts. That is what is meant by 'derive'. A minority of ancient texts have been preserved on papyri, which is what is meant by 'plurality'. Still, I agree the wording isn't ideal. How about: 'from which most classical texts are reconstructed'? Modussiccandi (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ... both of Britain's ancient universities. - ancient is relative (and vague), consider amending to ‘England’s two oldest universities’ or something similarly specific.
 * After his education and beginnings… - was he not educated elsewhere as well? Beginnings is vague, what beginnings are being referred to here?
 * Yes, he was educated at Eton as well — I will add this to the sentence. Beginnings refers to the first major period of Mynors' career: he was a student at the college and became a fellow immediately thereafter. His move to Cambridge in 1944 signals the middle part of his career. Perhaps, early stages of his academic career is more specific. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I would amend Balliol College to 'Balliol College, Oxford'.
 * I would remove the brackets in the article where possible, e.g. from 1944 to 1953.
 * Amend best-known to best known.
 * ...critical editions of… - consider amending to ‘critical editions of the works of…’.
 * The last sentence is puzzling – was he not considered such a classicist before or after his death?
 * What I intended to say is that, after his death, commentators were united in describing him in this way. He reached this status only after his textual work in the 1960s, so the statement would not have been true in, say, 1955. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I would add the information about Mynors’ spouse, birth place and death place to the infobox.
 * There is a link for ref 1 (Guardian) here - a subscription is required, so the template  is needed if you add the link.
 * ✅ Thanks for the tip.
 * Amend best-known to best known.
 * ...critical editions of… - consider amending to ‘critical editions of the works of…’.
 * The last sentence is puzzling – was he not considered such a classicist before or after his death?
 * What I intended to say is that, after his death, commentators were united in describing him in this way. He reached this status only after his textual work in the 1960s, so the statement would not have been true in, say, 1955. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I would add the information about Mynors’ spouse, birth place and death place to the infobox.
 * There is a link for ref 1 (Guardian) here - a subscription is required, so the template  is needed if you add the link.
 * ✅ Thanks for the tip.
 * There is a link for ref 1 (Guardian) here - a subscription is required, so the template  is needed if you add the link.
 * ✅ Thanks for the tip.
 * ✅ Thanks for the tip.

Ref 2 (Gotoff) - I have amended the work cited and reference here. I would suggest the remaining citations follow a similar style, as at present the References and Works cited sections have missing information, are hard to verify, have an inconsistent style, and use ibid. (see Citing sources and WP:IBID). Happy to help with editing the references if you want, as it helps me to review the article if they are sorted. I find it useful to write out the works using Template:Cite journal, Template:Cite news etc. as found in the Templates tab of the editing area.
 * Thanks for the suggestion. I have converted all references in accordance with your example. Feel free to correct mistakes in the references should you find some. I will address the rest of your comments later. Modussiccandi (talk) 14:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks sorted now. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:54, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Other comments:
 * ... in the South West. - this would be a confusing phrase to many readers, I would consider amending to something like ‘in the south-west of England’ or something similar.
 * Link Anglican.
 * ...sister of Ernest Musgrave Harvey, Chief Cashier of the Bank of England from 1918 to 1936. - is imo off topic, as information about the career of Mynors' Uncle Ernest is irrelevant to the article.
 * Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Musgrave was merely a senior banker, and need not be mentioned here. I would include Mynors' mother by amending the paragraph to say "His mother was Margery Musgrave, and his father, Aubrey Baskerville Mynors, was an Anglican clergyman and rector of Langley Burrell in Wiltshire, who in 1908 had been secretary to the Pan-Anglican Congress."
 * ✅ Thanks for the clarification. I've now adopted your suggestion.
 * In 1916, after being educated at Summer Fields School in Oxford, Mynors was accepted at Eton College as a scholar. - consider improving the prose by amending to ‘He attended Summer Fields School in Oxford, and from 1916, attended Eton College as a scholar.’ or something similar.
 * Individuals should be introduced when they first appear in an article, e.g. ‘...the historian Steven Runciman…’, not Steven Runciman.
 * Thanks, but other names to be treated in a similar way: (...with Cyril Connolly, Jack Westrup, Walter Fraser Oakeshott, and Richard Pares,...; ...a close co-operation with Richard William Hunt and Neil Ripley Ker.; also David Keir, and V. H. Galbraith). Amitchell125 (talk) 06:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ My apologies for not picking this up. I've now added description for all the individuals in the article. I chose not to introduce the people mentioned in the last paragraph of the Corpus Christi section since it says in the text that they are all Latinists. Modussiccandi (talk) 13:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As most of this section is not about Mynors’ early life at all, I would consider renaming the title.
 * Especially the latter introduced Mynors… - this needs copy editing to improve the prose.
 * I would add an image of Treago Castle (e.g. the one in the article Treago Castle).
 * ... and lived together in their ancestral home after Roger's retirement. - not found in Ref 4 (Winterbottom), only that they were close brothers.
 * Ref. 4 (Winterbottom 1993, p. 393) says the following: "Having for some years camped in the adjacent stables, they finally moved into the big House [at Treago] in 1970, together with Roger's mother, who lived for another four years, Humphrey, and Humphrey's wife Marian."Modussiccandi (talk) 00:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, missed the wood for the trees again. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Especially the latter introduced Mynors… - this needs copy editing to improve the prose.
 * I would add an image of Treago Castle (e.g. the one in the article Treago Castle).
 * ... and lived together in their ancestral home after Roger's retirement. - not found in Ref 4 (Winterbottom), only that they were close brothers.
 * Ref. 4 (Winterbottom 1993, p. 393) says the following: "Having for some years camped in the adjacent stables, they finally moved into the big House [at Treago] in 1970, together with Roger's mother, who lived for another four years, Humphrey, and Humphrey's wife Marian."Modussiccandi (talk) 00:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, missed the wood for the trees again. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ... and lived together in their ancestral home after Roger's retirement. - not found in Ref 4 (Winterbottom), only that they were close brothers.
 * Ref. 4 (Winterbottom 1993, p. 393) says the following: "Having for some years camped in the adjacent stables, they finally moved into the big House [at Treago] in 1970, together with Roger's mother, who lived for another four years, Humphrey, and Humphrey's wife Marian."Modussiccandi (talk) 00:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, missed the wood for the trees again. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Link fellowship; Bachelor of Arts degree (BA) (Bachelor of Arts), not BA on its own.
 * ... the Hertford, Craven, and Derby scholarships. - unless these scholarships can be linked to their own articles, they shouldn’t be linked to anything else.
 * Link to classics, not Classics.
 * Unlink continental Europe, as most readers are familiar with the term.
 * The sub section titles appear to be inconsistent – I would amend them to ‘Balliol College, Oxford’; ‘Pembroke College, Cambridge’ and ‘ Corpus Christi College, Oxford’.
 * The first three sentences about his scholarships and his period as an undergraduate are all concerned with his education. I’m not sure they belong in a section about his career.
 * I've renamed the section to "academic career" and the preceding one to "early life and secondary education". Given the continuity of his studies and early career at Balliol, I would prefer to keep these in one section. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ...he experienced a highly successful time as an undergraduate. - don’t most undergraduates? I’m unclear as to whether this is necessary, unless it is meant to clearly link with the list of his peers.
 * The idea was to show that Mynors was part of an exceptional cohort of Balliol undergraduates. I thought this would help to contextualise the intellectual milieu of his early years at Oxford. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Already at this early time, Vergil was at the forefront of his teaching. - clarification needed here - what early time is being referred to, and what does Vergil being “at the forefront of his teaching” mean?
 * ...at Durham,… - link to the university, the cathedral or the city?
 * Redundant words - Mynors' interest in medieval codicology… - ‘in medieval codicology’ is unecessary; also I would remove It was only…; ... the likes of…; …,near the end of his tenure at Balliol,…; and As such,....
 * ✅ I've removed some of these.
 * Mynors thus became uniquely placed… - it’s not clear to me why his relationship with Fraenkel made his position unique.
 * ✅ The point is that Mynors, who was very much a scholar of the traditional British bent with a strong emphasis on primary sources, was one of the earliest Oxbridge classicists to come under the influence of the more professional German style of scholarship which Fraenkel practiced. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand about Fraenkel, but it's the 'uniquely' I'm not clear about. Were there no other academics also in a position to "to exhibit the virtues of both the British and the German tradition" during this period? If there were, uniquely is wrong. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, the same might have been true of some other Oxford classicists of his generation. I think "well placed" will convey the same idea. Modussiccandi (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Soon after his return to Balliol, British involvement in the Second World War led to his being employed… - as the war started the following autumn, consider amending to something like ‘A month after the outbreak of World War II, he was employed by…’ or something similar.
 * Mynors' employment at Balliol lasted from 1926 until 1944, a time during which he taught… - could be edited down to ‘At Balliol, Mynors taught…’, as the rest of the information is already present in the article.
 * Already at this early time, decades editing his complete works, a significant part of Mynors' teaching revolved around Vergil. - amend Vergil to ‘the poet Vergil’ (linking Vergil); the sentence also needs to be copy edited to improve the prose.
 * The first sentence requires a citation, as does Mynors spent the winter of 1938 as a visiting scholar at Harvard University..
 * ✅ I've added citations from (Winterbottom) to both sentences.
 * ...the great Wittgenstein expert… - great needs to be cited (or edited out), to avoid it looking like an editorial comment.
 * Ref 12 (Gotoff) doesn’t appear to verify the text in the third paragraph.
 * Could you elaborate on what exactly doesn't appear in Gotoff? On p. 310 Fraenkel's transfer from Germany to Oxford is mentioned, so is his influence in transforming Mynors from a sophisticated amateur (gentleman scholar) into a professional classicist. I don't suppose that the statement that Fraenkel was an exponent of Germany's professional academic system would require a reference, though one could be found if needed. Modussiccandi (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Apologies for not being clearer: ... the highly professionalised... - this would need to be cited; and (which most British classicists were at the time) would too. The text says: The two men remained close friends, as evidenced by the affectionate name ('Uncle Ed') used in Mynors' correspondence., but Gotoff only says "they hit it off", and that Fraenkel was a dinner guest (on p. 311, not p. 310). They clearly were friends, but providing evidence of this using the name 'Uncle Ed' can't be done using Gotoff, and I would not connect the two ideas.Amitchell125 (talk) 21:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. The first two bits are not central to Mynors' relationship with Fraenkel and might as well be cut. I see your point about "Uncle Ed". Given that the nickname is not per se relevant, I think it is best to keep the statement that they were friends from Gotoff and to get rid of "Uncle Ed". I'll make some changes to this section, do let me know if there are still issues with it. Modussiccandi (talk) 00:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The use of significant in the article (in this section and elsewhere) seems rather vague. Is it always needed?
 * ✅ Agreed, I've removed/replaced some of them.
 * ... after seeking refuge from the Third Reich. - needs rephrasing (as surely he didn’t just seek refuge from the Nazis, he got out of Germany).
 * He exerted a strong influence in transforming Mynors… - the prose here needs to be improved.
 * ✅ I've added citations from (Winterbottom) to both sentences.
 * ...the great Wittgenstein expert… - great needs to be cited (or edited out), to avoid it looking like an editorial comment.
 * Ref 12 (Gotoff) doesn’t appear to verify the text in the third paragraph.
 * Could you elaborate on what exactly doesn't appear in Gotoff? On p. 310 Fraenkel's transfer from Germany to Oxford is mentioned, so is his influence in transforming Mynors from a sophisticated amateur (gentleman scholar) into a professional classicist. I don't suppose that the statement that Fraenkel was an exponent of Germany's professional academic system would require a reference, though one could be found if needed. Modussiccandi (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Apologies for not being clearer: ... the highly professionalised... - this would need to be cited; and (which most British classicists were at the time) would too. The text says: The two men remained close friends, as evidenced by the affectionate name ('Uncle Ed') used in Mynors' correspondence., but Gotoff only says "they hit it off", and that Fraenkel was a dinner guest (on p. 311, not p. 310). They clearly were friends, but providing evidence of this using the name 'Uncle Ed' can't be done using Gotoff, and I would not connect the two ideas.Amitchell125 (talk) 21:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. The first two bits are not central to Mynors' relationship with Fraenkel and might as well be cut. I see your point about "Uncle Ed". Given that the nickname is not per se relevant, I think it is best to keep the statement that they were friends from Gotoff and to get rid of "Uncle Ed". I'll make some changes to this section, do let me know if there are still issues with it. Modussiccandi (talk) 00:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The use of significant in the article (in this section and elsewhere) seems rather vague. Is it always needed?
 * ✅ Agreed, I've removed/replaced some of them.
 * ... after seeking refuge from the Third Reich. - needs rephrasing (as surely he didn’t just seek refuge from the Nazis, he got out of Germany).
 * He exerted a strong influence in transforming Mynors… - the prose here needs to be improved.
 * He exerted a strong influence in transforming Mynors… - the prose here needs to be improved.
 * He exerted a strong influence in transforming Mynors… - the prose here needs to be improved.

More comments to follow. The list is growing, but are mostly things that are easy to sort out. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi I've put Mynors' photograph from the British Academy in the Infobox, it's been uploaded correctly for single-use only in this article. Please replace it if you find a photo you want to use that is public domain. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Link Cyril Alington; palaeographical (Palaeography).
 * All of the second paragraph from “The marriage onwards…” is off topic.
 * Encouraged by Eduard Fraenkel,… - just ‘Encouraged by Fraenkel…’.(minor point).
 * Redundant words: His new post – new; ... fill the vacant… - vacant, and ...His previous duties – previous.
 * Consider putting In 1944 at the start of the sentence and not the end.
 * I would amend Though the move to Cambridge meant a significant advance of his academic career, he soon… to ‘The move to Cambridge meant a significant advance of his academic career, but he soon…’.
 * Unlink research students ('research' is already mentioned in the text, and the link doesn’t lead where you would expect it to).
 * A first attempt was made in 1949, when he ran, without success, to become master of Balliol College. David Keir was elected in his stead. - Consider amending to something like ‘In 1949 he applied unsuccessfully to become master of Balliol College, but the historian David Keir was elected in his stead.’.
 * The extensive duties of his university post left little time… - amend to ‘His duties left little time…’ to avoid the unnecessary repetition.
 * ...the activities of the college. These circumstances led Mynors… - ‘the activities of the college, which led Mynors…’?
 * Encouraged by Eduard Fraenkel, Mynors took up an offer to fill the vacant Kennedy Professorship of Latin… - Ref 12 (Gotoff) doesn’t appear to link Fraenkel with the offer from Oxford.
 * Indeed, I've added a reference from Winterbottom to back this up.
 * ... a 'fundamental error'. - I would make it clearer in the article that these are Mynors' words, not Winterbottom's. Double quote marks needed, incidentally.
 * Though the move to Cambridge meant a significant advance of his academic career, he soon came to contemplate a return to Oxford. - Ref 7 (Nisbet) doesn’t seem to mention this.
 * Again, I've added a reference from (Winterbottom).
 * The extensive duties of his university post left little time… - amend to ‘His duties left little time…’ to avoid the unnecessary repetition.
 * ...the activities of the college. These circumstances led Mynors… - ‘the activities of the college, which led Mynors…’?
 * Encouraged by Eduard Fraenkel, Mynors took up an offer to fill the vacant Kennedy Professorship of Latin… - Ref 12 (Gotoff) doesn’t appear to link Fraenkel with the offer from Oxford.
 * Indeed, I've added a reference from Winterbottom to back this up.
 * ... a 'fundamental error'. - I would make it clearer in the article that these are Mynors' words, not Winterbottom's. Double quote marks needed, incidentally.
 * Though the move to Cambridge meant a significant advance of his academic career, he soon came to contemplate a return to Oxford. - Ref 7 (Nisbet) doesn’t seem to mention this.
 * Again, I've added a reference from (Winterbottom).
 * ... a 'fundamental error'. - I would make it clearer in the article that these are Mynors' words, not Winterbottom's. Double quote marks needed, incidentally.
 * Though the move to Cambridge meant a significant advance of his academic career, he soon came to contemplate a return to Oxford. - Ref 7 (Nisbet) doesn’t seem to mention this.
 * Again, I've added a reference from (Winterbottom).
 * Again, I've added a reference from (Winterbottom).


 * His second stint… - 'second time' (or 'period')? Stint implies he was there for a fixed period.
 * I would avoid ... the backdrop… as an idiom (see WP:IDIOM).
 * I would avoid ... the backdrop… as an idiom (see WP:IDIOM).


 * I would start a new paragraph at On 17 October 1989,….
 * Link Hereford.
 * ...his own scholarly work… - why not quote some of Jancey’s words (from Winterbottom p. 395)?
 * ...his own scholarly work… - why not quote some of Jancey’s words (from Winterbottom p. 395)?
 * ...his own scholarly work… - why not quote some of Jancey’s words (from Winterbottom p. 395)?


 * During his lengthy career… - I wouldn’t include lengthy here, as being too vague. Ditto much in … much aided…; widely-read in ... the widely-read poets....
 * ... in his magisterial catalogues… - remove magisterial (see WP:PEA).
 * ...considered an accomplished editor… - considered by whom?
 * Link scribes; didactic (Didacticism).
 * ...optimistic and pessimistic readings. - I’m unclear about where this is referred to in Johnstone.
 * The detail about optimism/pessimism was actually from Winterbottom. I've added the appropriate reference. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Link scribes; didactic (Didacticism).
 * ...optimistic and pessimistic readings. - I’m unclear about where this is referred to in Johnstone.
 * The detail about optimism/pessimism was actually from Winterbottom. I've added the appropriate reference. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The detail about optimism/pessimism was actually from Winterbottom. I've added the appropriate reference. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Imo the first sentence isn’t needed, as the information in it is provided by the title and the following text.
 * ...all his former colleges at the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge… - is redundant and can, I think, be edited out.
 * ...recognised him in the same way. - I would replace recognised with ‘honoured’ or ‘recognised his achievements’.
 * Mynors was also an honorary member of several international academic bodies: the… - I would amend this to ‘Mynors was an honorary member of the…’.
 * Unlink Cambridge (duplicated link).
 * Mynors was also an honorary member of several international academic bodies: the… - I would amend this to ‘Mynors was an honorary member of the…’.
 * Unlink Cambridge (duplicated link).
 * Unlink Cambridge (duplicated link).
 * Unlink Cambridge (duplicated link).

The following links may be worth adding:


 * Durham Cathedral manuscripts to the end of the twelfth century


 * Oxford Classical Texts: C. Valerii Catulli: Carmina


 * Balliol College Archives & Manuscripts


 * Oxford Classical Texts: C. Plini Caecili Secundi: Epistularum Libri Decem


 * Oxford Classical Texts: P. Vergili Maronis: Opera


 * Virgil: Georgics


 * Thanks, checking the relevant policy for external links, it's clear they need to be a section below the main text, so I'll sort that out. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

On hold
I'm placing the article on hold for a week until 6 September, to allow time for the remaining comments to be sorted. Thanks for all your work so far! Amitchell125 (talk) 13:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, I've taken care of all the issues you raised. Regarding the links to Mynors' publications, I've integrated them into the article but I'm not sure whether I did it in the right way — so feel free to tweak if you take issue with them. Let me know if more work is required. Modussiccandi (talk) 13:37, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Passing now
The article is now at GA level, thanks and congratulations. it was a pleasure working through the review process with you. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The pleasure is all mine. Thanks for the speedy review process and all your advice on the article. Modussiccandi (talk) 13:22, 31 August 2020 (UTC)