Talk:RPG Maker/Archive 1

Fansites
Tons of people are adding and removing many, many fansites. It is beginning to be a fight about whos fansite stays on the list and whos doesn't. I think that fansites should be removed all-together, and only the official RPG Maker sites should stay on the wiki. Who agrees?

Custom Battle Merger
See reasons listed on talk page for Custom Battle System --Noah Smith 01:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and merged the articles. I also cleaned it up a little bit while I was at it. It simply didn't really require to have its own article, so I used the snowball clause to move it without further consent. --Michiel Sikma 09:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Notable Games
Well, this has certainly gotten out of hand lately. "A Blurred Line"? Sure, that is a notable RPG Maker game because it is one commonly held to be at the forefront of the available library. But as for any of the other "notable" games, I have to call foul on their location within this article. Wikipedia is NOT, I repeat is NOT, an advertising site nor will it be made into one in the foreseeable future. Every single person who comes to this page does not own the right to advertise their unreleased and unnotable games. Furthermore, a link to a GW page of the title in question will not suffice for an article over the title and unless these are placeholders, I suggest removing them.

Basically, a general moratorium on what is "notable" and what is not should be reached before anything else is added to that particular section of this article.

Charles M. Reed 06:10, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia; not a place to advertise material. Other than Legion Saga, The Way, A Blurred Line and Laxius Power I can't say I've seen any of those other games mentioned as high examples of RPG Maker 2000 capabilities. They should be either removed, or a convincing case made for their inclusion. Qjuad 20:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Whether you like it or not, notable games have been made with the console RPG Maker series, so please quit taking them down. Both the console and PC series are made by enterbrain, I dont know why you guys are so hell-bent on removing any mentions of the console RPG Maker series that gets put up.

-I think that either everybody can have their game up on this wiki, or noone can. For any of the games on here, sure, they are very good, but, they are still basically 'advertisements'... and to most people it wouldn't seem fair to have those games up there but not there games. It is, in this case, a matter of fairness. So I think, they should be taken out, and instead, the people who want to see projects can look at the links and all the websites. Guest


 * RPG Maker is unique in that discussion of it pretty much requires the things made for it. Just like how you'll find games mentioned in the articles of every video game console, the noteworthy games made for RPG Maker software should be mentioned in their articles.

Valkysas 03:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So why not let EVERYONE put the game that they think is the best on this page... wait... they can't... because the list would be huge!! Once again... 'Notable' is an OPINION. Good/Bad games is 100% OPINION! Some people may think The Chairman's Quest sucked... and that another game not in the Misao Awards or listed here is the best. It's all OPINION. So either let people post the best games in their opinion on this wiki, or let noone post the games. Besides, if someone wanted to view a project, they could go onto one of the websites with tons of projects and check a couple out. No reason to have games that not everybody thinks are good on here! Guest


 * The whole 'notable games' should be either nuked, or moved to it's own topic, prefably the prior. Games like A Blurred Line and The Way Are, yes, very notable, but they don't belong here.  Wikipedia is not an advertising servive, and this whole 'notable games' bit is just asking for trouble. SaderBiscut 03:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What I find interesting is that the only trouble we're getting is coming from people telling us how much trouble we're gonna get. Abyssal leviathin 17:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Proof They're Notable
...Can be found here. All the games on the list have won Misao Awards, and the Misao Awards are the de facto "official" awards for excellence in the community.Abyssal leviathin 03:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Two of the three Console RPG Maker games included in the article have won contests held within the console RPG Maker community, Remote Control even winning EGM's RPG Maker contest back in 2000. The one that hasnt is still one of the most incredibly popular RPGM games for the playstation. As for definate proof... since I happen to run one of agetec's official endorsed RPG Maker sites: the RPG Maker Pavilion, I can easily whip something up that will take care of that. Surely no one the least bit reasonable would argue with "notable games" picked out by a website that agetec themselves consider an official site. which happens to have been online for over six years now. I'll have the proof set up tomorrow, and then give links. peace. Valkysas 04:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As I promised, there is an officially endorsed site verifying the console games listed under "notable games". go to www.rpgmpavilion.com, and click on the RPG Maker 1 Information page.Valkysas 18:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that just because they won some wierd non-heard of award like the 'Misao' Award doesn't mean that they should be allowed on this wiki and they wont allow other games. A game that you think is 'Notable' is your opinion. Someone else might think another game is 'Notable' and the games on this list are NOT Noteable. Yes, they are good... but 'Notable' is a matter of opinion. Anyone who wants to see projects will have to look at the links section and look at some of the websites! Guest


 * RPG Maker is unique in that discussion of it pretty much requires the things made for it. Just like how you'll find games mentioned in the articles of every video game console, the noteworthy games made for RPG Maker software should be mentioned in their articles. And the Misao awards are quite well known.Valkysas 03:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no PROOF they are notable. These 'Misao awards' I have googled seem like it is a small website, where some people play every single game made on RM creators [which is not possible], and then put the best/worst games in there awards section. Does this mean that they are legimate? No, not one bit! A game being notable or not is 100% OPINION! I could think that blurred line sucks, and this other game that isn't even on the list or in the misao awards was 10x better then it. It's all OPINION. Guest


 * Wikipedia entries are filled with "notable" entries that you aren't complaining about. just put "notable" in the search box. and yeah, all that is "opinion", but it's an opinion that is agreed upon by general consensus of the communities involved. I cant speak for the PC RPG Makers, but the notable games listed for the console RPG Makers listed were chosen by the community at the RPG Maker Pavilion and the RPG Maker Magazine, sites that are officially endorsed by the US publisher of the series, agetec. They're here for a reason.Valkysas 06:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

These games are hardly notable, I've never heard of them before and have been using RPG Maker for years. I think the entire notable games section should be deleted, or at least replaced with the games featuring on the official site, http://www.enterbrain.co.jp


 * then you must not be very active in the community. Enterbrain's page showcases JAPANESE games only, and there's no quality requirement for a game to be featured on their page, so many of them are garbage. I'm only active in the console RPG Maker community, and even I have heard of and played the PC RPGM games listed in the article. Valkysas 21:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with the first guy who said 'These games are hardly notable'. They are not that great of games... the 'Misao awards' are not one bit official. And like he said, these games are hardly notable! So the Notable Games section will be removed... since no matter HOW you put it, it's always an opinion... 'Notable Games' ... 'Misao Awards'... not official... not a fact... just opinion... so it will be most likely removed [that section].


 * One person cannot decide such a major change on their own.


 * If it is an obvious matter of UnOfficiality and totally Biased AKA Opinion work, then it is obvious that these matters of opinion need to be removed.


 * As it was mentioned before, many other wikipedia articles have "notable" sections, including almost every video game system. RPG Maker is essentially a platform in itself, so I see no reason why they should be removed. if the RPG Maker notable games section goes away, you had better do away with the notable game sections for every single video game system article as well.75.7.199.93 04:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok... why not? Admins can, I'm sure, 'prune/delete' all 'Noteable' sections using their admin abilities and what-not. Sounds like a fine idea to me... to get rid of the biased information and if anyone wants to see a game or something, they have to look in some of the websites at the bottom of the page. Sounds like a perfect idea to me. Now all we need is an admin to do that hmmm...


 * Look, this isn't about a few people's opinions. The games lsted here are significant because they are widely popular. This isn't just an opinion of one or two people. The Laxius Power games have over 100,000 downloads. ABL has around 32,000 on one site alone. While I don't know exact numbers for Legion Saga or The Way, but I'd imagine they would be just as high if not higher.


 * These games also aren't just popular, they are often credited by members of the community as being inspirations for their own games. They have influence.


 * Then consider the comprehensiveness of the article. I know that if I unknowingly stumbled across an article about an "RPG Maker" I would wonder just what RPGs of significance had been made. Why make Wikipedia's readers spend hours hunting down info on other sites that rightly belongs in the article?


 * The way I see it, there are three reasons to keep these games here. Each one, I feel, is strong enough in its own right to justify the inclusion of these games in the article. They are:
 * All the games are widely played and widely acknowledged as community "greats."
 * These particular games have wielded a lot of influence towards future RPG Maker games.
 * The inclusion of the games in the article makes it much more informative and comprehensive on this subject.


 * we shouldn't delete the notabl games section, but it's seriously troubled if it runs completly off of some 'miso awards' that most have never heard of... (btw, they are biased and I would not have found them if they had not been called to my attention by some one in the system)    DEJUISMASTER

Abyssal leviathin 20:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are semi-popular. But, not everyone likes it. And no, these are not the 'greatest game ever'... I have seen many that are better. I know no situation where people have gotten 'influence' from these games to create other games. They are not that 'great', even though they are popular. And I quote myself:

So why not let EVERYONE put the game that they think is the best on this page... wait... they can't... because the list would be huge!! Once again... 'Notable' is an OPINION. Good/Bad games is 100% OPINION! Some people may think The Chairman's Quest sucked... and that another game not in the Misao Awards or listed here is the best. It's all OPINION. So either let people post the best games in their opinion on this wiki, or let noone post the games. Besides, if someone wanted to view a project, they could go onto one of the websites with tons of projects and check a couple out. No reason to have games that not everybody thinks are good on here!


 * You know what? I now fully agree with you. I was against it, but not anymore. chalk up another vote for getting rid of them. Anything that is challenged so often obviously needs to be strongly reconsidered, and the removal of this section just keeps coming up. 75.7.199.93 02:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

To claim that a game is not notable just because not everybody likes it would be like to claim that a major political figure is not notable because not everybody agrees with his/her views. These games are both influential and wildly popular. While it's true that happen to dislike all of the "noteworthy" games listed for various reasons, I agree that they should stay, because of their technical acheivements and widespread popularity. Covarr 05:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A major political figure is official. Something like a RPGMaker game that got a 'Misao Award' is totally unofficial. ;)


 * Official is in the eye of the beholder. This is true even in politics. The legitimacy of many leaders elected or otherwise has been rejected by members of the populations of various societies. And for an example of influence, check out Love and War by Admiral Styles. His games' Read Me explicitly states he was inspired by both ABL and The Way. And LaW won some Misao awards. They may not be official, but they carry some "oomph" in the community, regardless of your minority opinion. Abyssal leviathin 00:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * They carry no 'oomph' as you speak to me, and many people I know. Most of these games still have a lot of work they need to be done before they are 'extremly good' or, as you put it, 'carry some oomph' or 'notable'...

So far the only argument you've been able to give is that because you don't like them, they aren't notable and shouldn't be on the page. I've got some news for you: the world does not revolve around you. What you do or do not like does not decide notability: the opinions of the thousands of people who enjoy these games does. Grow up. It's not a big deal that these games are on the page. It makes the page more informitive. Deal with it. You're just being a troll and a pest and you're wasting everyone's valuable time. Abyssal leviathin 02:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no reason to make it JUST the 'Misao awards' I know a bit about these guys, they are pretty biased... AND to note, Dark Kunu's Throne is Notable because it brought hundreds of fans, even though it's not one of cchristian's best things (it's not even good for him, he held back) but because he found the program [RPG2000] and made a game with it all the ring's (TruePunkery, Look at this!, All the fax, GameDesign.com, the standardized organization for game designers, ETC.) started noticing it, and started either maing games with it or later making thier own utilities...  theese 'Miso awards' Mean nothing!!!  if we're gonna make them our standard we might as well use 'Look at this!', and Doomworld.com too!   dejuismaster


 * The Misao Awards are influential in the community, so no they don't "mean nothing." And if this Dark Kunu's Throne or whatever is so influential why aren't you adding info about it to the article instead of griping here in the talk page?

An can you give me a link to this stuff? I googled "Dark Kunu's Throne" and got nothing. I googled cchristian rm2k and got nothing. I even googled to find out whatever the heck TruePunkery is and got nothing. Are you just making crap up for the sake of arguing?

Abyssal leviathin 21:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It comes down to this - Misao Awards are totally biased. Either have everyone's game on here, or noone's game. And In all of the huge RM2K/3/XP forums and sites I have been to, I have heard nothing about Misao Awards, and noone has ever talked about them. Think again before you say that it is influential. Maybe to you it is, but to many, many others it means almost nothing.

Your "all or nothing" argument doesn't make sense. As for the Misao's being biased, do you have any evidence for that? Abyssal leviathin 04:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Definition of biased: "favoring one person or side over another" Basically, an opinion. Something some people believe in but others don't. They are biased because some people have heard of them and think that they are great, while many others haven't heard of them, and some people just would not think the games that got these biased 'Misao Awards' are not that great at all.


 * Your argument makes no sense... at all. You're saying that somehow favoritism is shown just because some people might not agree that the games that get the award are good? If that's the case then every contest, competition or election is also biased and should be ignored by wikipedia just because of dissenting opinions on whether the results came out for the best. I think most Oscar winning movies are crap. Maybe wikipedia shold take down the articles on the academy awards. After all "some people have heard of them and think they're great" while other people think they're crap (i.e. me). Because the academy awards reflect opinon they are biased and should be removed from wikipedia post haste. Yeah, right. Abyssal leviathin 03:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "All the games on the list have won Misao Awards, and the Misao Awards are the de facto "official" awards for excellence in the community."

You said they were official. I disagree with you completely, and so do many other people. Many other contests are official, and are judged by multiple people. This is unofficial and judged by 1, maybe 2 people.

Don miguel?
I dont think the link should be redirected to Don miguel of spain. - Grundlegod 03:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Don miguel is russian... for anyone who don't know, don miguel is translator of rpgmaker into english and is the reason that it's here. -dejuismaster

Argument over legality
In defence of the people who do use the illegal translations, If Enterbrain and ASCII realized the full protential of distrbuing worldwide (not to mention the fact that anime has loads of fans outside Japan) they wouldn't need to be worrying about piracy, and then everyones a winner. Instead it is just coin, coin ,coin never fan,fan,fan.

(And they wonder why piracy is high)-Dynamo_ace
 * There's nothing in the article attacking them, just an acknowledgement that they are unauthorized and illegal. Let's keep this from a neutral point of now... -SA-

Sorry about that, just want to get it off my chest-Dynamo_ace

Well in my opinion, Dinamo does have a point.

Possible vandilism at 18 July 2005 22:59 GMT, problem has been corrected-Dynamo_ace

Second possible vandilism at 20 July 2005 15:45 GMT, the user is annoymous with a IP adress of 68.110.100.149. Can the annoymous user please realise that Wikipedia is a neutral, un-biased encyclopedia and therefore i cannot accept the last two edits due to the fact they appear to look like they were boosting their site.-Dynamo_ace

Similar vandilism at 13 August 2005 09:54 GMT, the user was annoymous with a IP adress of 24.98.153.204. If this happens again i will report to Wikipedia to either ban both IPs or to call for a lockdown of the article.--Dynamo_ace 08:57, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

I would like to comment that there's nothing illegal about translating it or distributing a patch that modifies the software such that it is in a different language; both certainly constitute fair use under copyright law. That said, actually distributing the program (as opposed to a patch) is very much illegal... The article could be editted to reflect this disparity, as the way it is worded leaves it slightly unclear. 129.21.124.58

Quote from RM2k Help file - "There seems to be a little confusion on this topic. First of all, possession of RPG Maker 2000 is lawful. RM2K falls within the same jurisdiction as anime fansubs. RM2K is a fansub of a program released only in Japanese. Unless ASCII personally asks Don to stop distribution of the program, there is nothing illegal about RM2K."

Check out http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/tkool/RPG_XP/eng/index.html I believe Enterbrain has wised up!

Yeah man uh... thats not new, I saw that 2 years ago, they paid Don miguel. he works for them a little..... --Dejuismaster 04:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

No, he does not work for them, and they never paid him. You dont pay or hire the person who damn near ran your RPG Maker team bankrupt. 75.7.194.96 06:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that he was never paid or worked for them. But what I have heard is that he did actually have their blessing in making originally translating the software. A fuss was never made about the english translation until ASCII became Enterbrain. I've also heard that rm2k originally sold very poorly in Japan, so to say Don Miguel almost bankrupted a company by distributing software in a language they had no intention of selling in is utter rubbish. Abyssal leviathin 20:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * He had thier blessing when he said he was going to release a PATCH. instead he pirated the software in full, and released it online. He lied, and used/uses the fact that they approved his proposed patch to justify his actions. They hate him, they always have, and they certainly always will. They e-mailed him constantly during the initial RM2K pirating, telling him to stop and he ignored them every time. RM2K sold horribly in japan because of him. the japanese were downloading his english translated version for free, rather than pay 100+ dollars for it. I have had many in-depth conversations with ascii and enterbrain about this (even with don miguel himself).


 * Educate yourself before you say that things you have no knowledge of are rubbish. I've been in this mess from the start, I have seen all sides of it and spoken to all involved parties. It most certainly is not rubbish.


 * I'd also like to know where you got the idea that RPG Maker 2000 was never to be released in english. It was planned for an english release. I know people who worked on the translation before it was suddenly stopped. 2K3 was set to be released in the US as well, and that software happens to have been completely translated, and it go so far that early packaging samples were created.75.7.194.96 23:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Misc. Discussion
63.205.212.167 removed official US site links and is hell-bent on advertising RPG Crisis everywhere possible, going as far as to sticking a blatant advertisement on the RPG Maker 2000 wiki.- Valkysas

72.140.2.218 keeps vandalizing the timeline section. any way we could get him banned? "Bill37212" is doing a damn good job removing his stupid remarks everyday though, thanks!Valkysas 20:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

RpgMaker 2000 is illegal simple as that
It's just like a copy of a psp iso it's illegal. And show my ip because with all due respect I couldn't give a damn. Also If ya wanna find me lookp me up.

Yes, because we'd want to look you up because you called it illegal... "How dare you"? ... By the way, that was an example of sarcasm, just so you know


 * I know it's sarcasm but I don't hate you for using something that I have no control over. This is best left between you two.


 * \... erm, there's no real issue I was trying to be a smartass o_o 4.235.205.6 00:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

What the hell?
XD. How the hell is my game, Music Box, on the notable games list? Last time I checked I never released it. I think "notable" should be erased from "Notable Games made with RPG Maker."
 * =P I added any game that had an article. I was actually tempted to put my game, which is about ten hours in development :) Deckiller 00:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Just testing everyone's patience

 * Fixed. You should know better. --coldacid 17:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Merging with RPGMaker 2000
The RPGMaker 2000 article adds little new, and is the only RPG Maker program to get its own article. Therefore I suggest that these two articles be merged. --coldacid 16:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * All set. Deckiller 03:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Merger Proposition

 * See Talk:A_Blurred_Line

I propose that this section be enlarged, and some of these lesser known games weeded out. For A Blurred Line, The Way and a few others, there can be subheadings containing short summary of the articles. I would like to start out with A Blurred Line, as it is probably the most prominant RPG Maker game, and then maybe we can make our way to The Way and others. Please discuss. --imaek 21:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Having information on what makes these games notable is a great idea. I just hope that while weeding out less important games, people don't forget that this wikipedia entry is for all RPG Maker games, including 1, 2, and 3 for consoles and dont remove everything listed about those, which I've noticed has been a bit of a tradition here.

I'll bring in some more people from the console RPG Maker community so that the console RPG Maker games can be selected and removed by people who have actually played them, and know about them. Valkysas 03:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll go ahead and merge the articles A Blurred Line, The Way, and the one I created a long time ago, The Weapons of Ganildan. I'm a major mergist, and I completely agree.  However, I'll mere all information first, and let you guys modify it from there. Deckiller 17:23, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't merge Laxius, because it featured a fair amount of development (I want to make sure that it is completely agreed before merging developer articles). Deckiller 17:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this wasnt such a good idea. people have now decided to just list any random game, even those that don't exist yet. Wasnt it supposed to be "notable" games only?Valkysas 06:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah; perhaps we shouldn't list any games. Period.  After all, we don't list fanfiction on the site. Deckiller 12:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * it was a good idea, but then people started coming in just to promote their upcoming games. notable games need to be games that everyone in that given community has played, games that break barriers, innovate like none other. if they want to have info on their upcoming games on wikipedia, they should just start a new entry, not hijack this one. its hard enough keeping this entry clean with the rampant vanadlism aleady. Maybe it should just go back to just having a list of games (without descriptions), because pretty much everything on that list deserved it's place on there. What does everyone else think?Valkysas 18:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * -=nods=-. Fan fiction/fan work is not allowed to feature its own sections/articles anyway, so we should just bring it back to a simple list. Deckiller 19:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the detailed info on RPG Maker games needs to go, ASAP. more people are adding just random games that arent even out yet. they're using this article for advertisement purposes, which just isnt right. Unless anyone objects, I'm reverting the "Games made with RPG Maker" back to the old "notable games" list on monday.Valkysas 18:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, go ahead; I just merged them together in hopes of removing them with one swipe, myself. They don't belong here (except for MAYBE external links and/or a list). Deckiller 20:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I like to have that section enlarged with the epic-3part-game 'Laxius Power' http://www.laxiuspower.com/ As well that the best german version games from here http://www.rpg-atelier.de/award.php are also mentioned since there are (even if few) games in English as well. [anonymous]

Gaming Ground Zero
While Gaming Ground Zero (formerly known as Gaming Overworld and The Heresy Academy) has received its share of criticism and controversy over the years due to its policies regarding copyrights, exclusive materials, and later incarnations of RPG Maker (not to mention its message board's closed-door policy), shouldn't it get at least some mention on Wikipedia's RPG Maker page? Like them or hate them, the GGZ staff has released some quite notable games that are curiously absent from the list here. Exile, Kindred Saga, Elcothied, Tabernacle, Shichimenchouken, Dragon Warrior IV: Renaissance, Crossbone, Chocobo Panic, and Yoshi's Maze Mania, to name just a few. Many of their staff members are talented artists as well. While I am fully aware that Gaming World (probably the most popular English-language RPG Maker site) is bitter enemies with GGZ, and much of the information in this Wikipedia page was contributed by people with ties to Gaming World, let us not forget Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. If Adolf Hitler can get a more or less objective biography on this site, why can't Gaming Ground Zero?

Signed, Some nameless nutjob


 * Gaming Ground Zero WAS in the links. I dont know who removed it, but this page is constantly vandalized.Valkysas 03:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm a moderator of Gaming World. Although it's true that members of the forum seem to bitterly dislike Gaming Ground Zero, there is no reason to not mention them. I myself also disagree with their way of operating their site, as they seem to systematically revoke access to their site to certain people. There's no doubt, however, that they're a notable site in this small community. It would actually be best if someone were to write a section on their controversy, even if this would make the article more prone to vandalism. If there are any members of Gaming Ground Zero who want to talk to me about this, please leave a message on my talk page. --Michiel Sikma 17:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Gaming Ground Zero is a very nice site so I did add it to the external links ^ ^. It is actually a better site then a few of the links in that list...
 * Chocobo Panic and Yoshis Mace Mania are made by a german Artist from RPG-Ateleir, not from GGZ. GGZ just has the right to put it on their side, the same also goes for Velsarbor, for example.

Sample Maps
Who made them? I'm just curious because they look really nice, not your usual RTP maps.
 * ... Enterbrain?Valkysas 04:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Not who made the graphics, who put together the map, I mean. Unless, of course, you're saying Enterbrain made them?
 * I did, part of a game which never got released. Actually, where never really was a game to begin with. Just that map, and it's not even finished. See Image:Rtpmap.png for how the full thing looked. I'm glad you like it! --Michiel Sikma 21:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Dude, that's awesome. Will you ever finish it? What chipset did you use? --Connor2005 22:40, 06 March 2006 (GMT+0)

RPG Maker Magazine
I don't believe that RPG Maker Magazine is anything official. If they are, then please cite sources to prove that they are. They look like yet another RPG Maker site to me. --Michiel Sikma 22:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's kind of hard to cite conversations we had in private with agetec. you can go to rpgmaker.agetec.com and see that they've linked it from their main site though, just like the pavilion. Me and Ixzion are the leaders of the console RPG Maker community, so please try to take our word when it comes to matters involving it.Valkysas 01:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I thought I mentioned up there that I am legit. As Valk said, you could confirm it with a visit to Agetec's official RPG Maker site. Ixzion
 * I'm sorry, but I think that these are not satisfactory responses. I said that it should be proven that this site is anything official, because Wikipedia is not a place for untrustworthy information — it's not a place for link spam, or a commercial outlet. Sources must be verifiable. The link cannot say that it is the official English RPG Maker magazine if there are no sources to back this up; otherwise, the link is using Wikipedia for its own promotion, which is against official policy. --Michiel Sikma 07:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * (Note that I do see the link on rpgmaker.agetec.com, but this still does not make your site the "official magazine".) --Michiel Sikma 07:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How exactly are we supposed to prove it? Look, I'm the webmaster of the RPG Maker Pavilion, which has played the role of agetec's official site since august of 2000. I'm also agetec's forum administrator, which can be checked by going to their forums. and I am telling you, the RPG Maker Magazine was named as an official site, by agetec's David Silviera and Mark Johnson. Do you know anything about the console RPG Maker series, or it's community? no? so why don't you trust me on this then? I sure as hell don't know anything about the PC RPG Maker community, so you dont see me going around trying to debate things that it's users put up here.Valkysas 10:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I just created link topics on agetec's own forum that list the mag as an official site, and stuck them to the top of the forum. in other words; I am agetec's forum administrator, who posted the link and labeled it as an official site, on agetec's own forum. Agetec appointed me as their forum admin, it is my JOB to be informed in these matters, and to make sure the information I provide is 100% accurate. I JUST VERIFIED IT. if this STILL isn't proof enough for you, you're just trolling.Valkysas 14:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Direct link to the verification: http://p068.ezboard.com/fagetecfrm3.showMessage?topicID=1965.topicValkysas 14:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that it might have seemed like I was trying to troll. That wasn't my intention. It's true that I don't know much about the console RPG maker community, but I asked you this simply because content must be verifiable; I do usually assume good faith, but felt it would be more appropriate to not do so this time, specifically because the link section was used almost exclusively to promote sites that aren't noteworthy at all. But you're right, you are officially sanctioned. Thanks that you took the time to make this clear to me. --Michiel Sikma 20:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

"The Weapons of Ganildan?"
This is under "Noteworthy Games." Considering I've never heard of it, I suggest it being taken down, unless of course it is noteworthy, though if it I find it strange that I've never seen nor heard of it.
 * Hey, it's just as noteworthy as the other games. Honestly, there shouldn't even be a mention of fanon games on an encyclopedia. Deckiller 01:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Considering the nature of RPG Maker, the games made with it do belong in an encyclopedia entry, to show just what the software is capable of as well as how serious the scene around it is.Valkysas 21:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, that makes sense, I suppose. I just thought the games actually had to be a large influence in the game-making community.
 * To answer your question, I've never heard of it in my life. Has anybody? It's imperative that we don't let that section turn into a linkspam paragraph again. --Michiel Sikma 20:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes.. Now there is also a Rainbow Treasure article, but since it's Chinese it may be notable in their community.. But since it's foreign, maybe it should be placed on a chinese RPG Maker page? Maybe not, but..

(Non-)noteworthy games
Will someone PLEASE start actively monitoring the Noteworthy Games section? This place has become a linkspamming repository. No more unnotable games must be added to this section, or else it might be better to put the entire paragraph in its own locked down template. --Michiel Sikma 11:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to trim all those crufty sections; I don't think ABL warrents detailed explanation on battle systems, when many official video games don't even have that sort of detail. Deckiller 17:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't really mind the excessive detail in that section. I'm really just worried about the fact that there are community games in the list that seem to be completely insignificant. I'm also going to remove Icecap Valley 2: Shadow of Darkness unless there's strong consensus to keep it. --Michiel Sikma 16:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I monitor it the best I can. I'm not involved with the PC RPG Maker community, so I dont know what exactly is notable or not under that category, and so I'm not fit to remove games from it. the only thing I can manage with any certainty is the console RPGM games added, which there are currently none of in the list. One was added, but I took it down since the game isnt even posted online for anyone to play. I'll be adding in a few noteworthy games made with the console RPGM series within the week. It'll probably only be the three or so games. Ixzion will probably add a few too. Neither of us will put anything on that list that doesnt belong though.Valkysas 18:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Non-noteworthy sites
I removed some sites, divided the section into official sites and fansites. I also added a notice saying that this is a list of the "most noteworthy communities" and gave a hard limit of 5000 members (of course, member count isn't always the most important factor, so exceptions are granted for Pavilion and Magazine). I hope that this will make people who want to add their non-noteworthy site to the list think twice, since their site would not conform to the profile. I hope that you agree to this decision and will help me keep the list clean of spam. --Michiel Sikma 15:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, if I removed your site, and you want it to be back in, then please tell me here why you think it should be in. The "hard limit" that I set at 5000 members is debatable and should only be used as general guideline to protect the section a little bit, and it's by no means a rule (that is commonly agreed on). --Michiel Sikma 15:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Removed Kobra's Realm from the external links after it was added back in by 68.47.155.174 (talk). See a diff. --Michiel Sikma 06:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)== Weasel template ==

I added the template to this article. The reason is that there are a lot of unreliable and unclear statements.

Such as: "This game was featured with many improvements to RPG Maker 2 (for the same system) but also had its share of flaws." — first off, what does "was featured" mean? Secondly, what is its "share of flaws"? From whose point of view does it have flaws? What are these flaws? Is it generally accepted knowledge that it has flaws? What can be considered to be a flaw? These is no certainty in this whatsoever.

Another example: "Events commands can do anything from making things move to making the shade of the screen darker." — this isn't exactly weasel wording, but it's close; they can do "anything"? Again, from whose point of view? You can't use RPG Maker event commands to load an external database or XML file. Nor can you use them to print non-default fonts directly to the screen. It's also impossible to draw new windows. There are many things that event commands cannot do, so the "anything" is completely false and should be edited to show that the encyclopedia is only referring to "anything" within the capabilities of the RPG Maker engine. There are more examples of these uncertainties.

I also added the tag to the top of the article because it contains spelling mistakes. The design of the article (such as the excessive usage of bold text) could also be cleaned up. I hope that the editors of this article understand my concerns. --Michiel Sikma 14:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There are mistakes all over this article. some parts are written as if the article is only about the PC RPG Maker series too. you'll see that anything talking about the PC version of the software doesnt even say that it's for the PC versions, which would make it easy for someone to think it's talking about the console versions too. almost all information in the article needs to be re-sorted, and re-written.Valkysas 17:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have copy-edited the article, and thus removed the tag.  I hope this is to the satisfaction of the community.  Additionally, I added some information about RPG Maker XP wherever it was talking about all makers in general. --Mewsterus 23:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Weasel Hunting/Corrected Information
I removed several "weasel" worded passages from the Noteworthy Games section, as well as descriptions of a few non-noteworthy games that hadn't even been released, yet. I added a brief description for Phylomortis as well, and corrected some erroneous information posted in regard to "The Way" -- namely that its panoramas were made with Maya. In fact, according to the game's author at the Gaming World forums, they were produced with Bryce 3D. An individual named "Maya" created the game's character portraits by editing the default RPG Maker 2000 portraits, which may have led to the confusion. --John Arlington, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Like I said on your talk page, thanks for these edits. It's true that Bryce 3D was used to create the images. That was my first reaction when I played it; I personally strongly disliked them, partially because it seems that it's just not possible to create even semi-realistic environments in that program (as graphic designer, I've used Bryce extensively, but stopped trying to make realistic landscapes with them since it's just too simplistic for this purpose). --Michiel Sikma 09:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your feedback! I similarly noticed it was largely Bryce-rendered from its screenshots, as it uses many of the Bryce default textures and trademark tree forms.  I tinkered around with Bryce a bit myself, and found that realistic landscapes were similarly difficult without external Photoshop editing.  Tinkering around with the scene's lighting effects and importing higher-resolution realistic textures can help, but it's far from Lightwave/Maya quality.--John Arlington, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Laxius Power controversy
The Laxius Power paragraph currently says this:

'' ===Laxius Power=== Laxius Power is a trilogy of RPG games created by Indinera Falls (an amateur RPG Maker 2000 user from France also known as "Damianzeking", "DZK" and "Indy") with the RPG Maker game engine. Most, if not all of the visuals and music in the Laxius Power series that did not come with the RPG Maker 2000 software were pirated illegally and without permission from existing games, musicians, and authors, and fail to credit the original sources in any way. ''

It's kind of strange that it says that. Yes, Laxius Power is controversial, but to put in such a bold and uncited statement (including bold text!) means that someone's been using Wikipedia to try and blacken a game he doesn't like. Note that I also think Laxius Power is worthless, but that's not what this is about. The article should be objective, and this section should be rewritten. --Michiel Sikma 07:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I had a look and removed the bold text, as it appears biased against Laxius Power that way, but left the statement as is, which is a fact -- albeit one that just doesn't reflect well on the game. The adjectives in the statement initially seemed biased due to their negative connotations, but those connotations (that it's bad to do something illegal, not credit a copyright owner's work, or take without asking) aren't present in the text; "illegally" is a factual adjective in this case, as opposed to "foolishly" or "disgustingly," which are matters of relative opinion.  I can't think of a more leniant way of re-stating it without bending/omitting the truth and making the article inaccurate, but I did change "pirated" to "taken," as illegality and lack of permission from the original author is implied through the term "pirated," and the original phrase more or less just restated facets of a word that most readers would inherently understand.


 * I agree about Laxius Power, too. Aside from being very large, it didn't have anything special going for it.  It was like an oversized RPG Maker sample game.  But apparently, that appealed to some people... --John Arlington, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * My point isn't that it should be rewritten. The point that I'm trying to make is that it severely distracts from the main point of the text to suddenly mention how it pirated resources. If a reader sees that, this will raise a lot of questions that aren't answered in the rest of the text. Such as what the community and the authors of those resources thought, or who they are in the first place. This should be resolved. If the article mentions something as controversial as that, it'd be best if there was a more detailed explanation about it. --Michiel Sikma 20:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps an independent section in regard to ripped/pirated resources within the RPG Maker article that discusses the matter further would be a better approach; something that's applicable to the community as a whole, rather than directed at one specific game. A few of the other "noteworthy" games, such as Phylomortis and Legion Saga, are just as guilty (moreso, actually) than Laxius Power in regard to pirating graphics and music, afterall.  John Arlington, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree to that. --Michiel Sikma 07:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

"The Program"
I think "The Program" should be retitled to make it clearer that it's talking about the PC RPG Maker series, because in time I would like to add information that is strictly about the console RPG Maker series, and not worry about people getting them confused.Valkysas 00:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Feel free to rename it to what you think is most appropriate. There wasn't really a need to ask. --Michiel Sikma 07:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

J'sJ: Just for reference
The section "Jay's Journey" was removed because of "personal advertising." I'm not adding it back, and I'm not even asking for someone else to re-add it, but I just want to state: for it to be personal advertising, would it not have to have been added by someone responsible for creating it? And since the only such person is the one currently typing this message, and I had nothing to do with its addition to this page, I wouldn't very well call it "personal advertising". Just, y'know, defending myself. --HeroicJay 04:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It was me that added it. And I'm going to revert it. Jay's Journey is just as "noteworthy" as A Blurred Line or Legion Saga, and a lot moreso than a few of these listed. As I stated in the piece, it is not, in fact, "fairly unknown", at least in the circles I've traveled in. And I believe that the game is especially noteworthy for the fact that it does so much with so little.

However, if you still see fit remove it after this, I'll let it be.

-GG Crono


 * Okay, I did say I wasn't adding it back if it was removed, but as the IP that removed it was CLEARLY a vandal (take a good look at his edit history), I think I'm reverting it anyway. If a user that doesn't look like a vandal removes it, then I'll stand by my earlier statement that I wouldn't re-add it. --HeroicJay 01:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the game at first, before a vandal removed it after it was added back in by GG Crono. First off, something can indeed be advertising if it was added by someone who isn't the author. There are enough people who liked a game by someone enough to add it in an article such as this one, even if it isn't noteworthy. Secondly, I still don't think that Jay's Journey should be in here. This is a list that's reserved for the absolute most-played and most-known games in the RPG Maker community. I don't see Jay's Journey as one to adhere to that criteria. Sure, it might be well-known in the place you go to, but it isn't well-known at all in the larger RPG Maker communities. A search on the forums of Gaming World returns only two results for "Jay's Journey". If this game can be on the list, then realistically, a lot of other games can; that's why only the absolute most noteworthy games must be on that list.
 * Please provide proof that the game is indeed noteworthy. If this isn't given, I'll remove it again (soon). Wikipedia is NOT for advertising, and I will not let this article fall back to its old habit of being used as outlet for personal advertising. --Michiel Sikma 06:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Sunset over Imdahl
I removed it. It's popular, but it's definetly not noteworthy or as popular as the Way or a Blurred Line. Revert my edit if you want, but I feel that this change is for the better. M2K 01:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Teo's game was amazing, but kind of an Underdog. Keep in mind that noteworthy does not necessarily imply the fact it had a large fanbase; it could also be simply the fact that it's universally considered to be a very high-quality game that makes it noteworthy. But that's always very difficult to prove, especially in this small community, so I'd rather not have it in the article. --Michiel Sikma 22:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Just do me a small favor..
Whenever someone plans on adding a game to the "noteworthy games" section of the article, could you please post here first, so it could be discussed if it's noteworthy or not? I think that for a game to be mentioned it must be popular in many communities, not just one. Also, if anyone thinks that Pokemon: The Evil Inside 2 should be kept here, please state your reasons here... I just reverted the edits. M2K 19:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally I think Pokemon: The Evil Inside 2 would make a good addition to the noteworthy game section. It shows the ABS (I'm persuming everyone knows what an ABS in RPG Maker is) possibilities of RPG Maker. The already present noteworthy games are ofcourse great games, however none of them has an ABS system. Pokemon: The Evil Inside 2 shows has allot of different ABS systems and to my opinion has a really "noteworthy" gameplay. L33tj0s 21:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I do not feel that the game belongs here. Many RM2K games have ABS systems, and haven't gained excessive praise and longevity over the years, as have the three listed.  Just because a game does something a bit different and garners some praise in some circles shouldn't be enough, in my opinion.  I believe that the "noteworthy" Rm2K game section should remain strictly limited until something truly groundbreaking comes along that does several unique things, gains a massive fanbase, maintains a "bar-setting" status and popularity over a long period of time, and is superior in most regards to the thousands of RM2K games out there (otherwise, there are probably 40-50 RM2K titles that could be justified as additions, making the article long and cumbersome).


 * The Way series is a good example of the type of game that deserves being added, whether one personally liked it or not. It contains not only original, but smooth and 3D rendered visuals, a mostly original soundtrack, heavily edited face portraits, a fully-functional custom battle and menu system, many interesting gameplay concepts that aren't direct rip-offs of commercial RPG systems, several mini-games, manages to avoid most common RPG cliches, and presents a very well-written plot and character cast.  Its size and breadth is easily as big and detailed as a commercial RPG, and it has repeatedly won popular RM2K awards, is constantly being updated, and has a massive fan community.


 * While the same cannot be said of A Blurred Line or Legion Saga, one has to remember that both games came out very, very early in the RPG Maker community's lifespan, and were innovative and wildly popular for their day -- enough so to be considered marks in the community/program's evolution. Many games of similar quality to Legion Saga are made frequently nowadays -- almost on a monthly basis -- but at the current point in time, they just aren't impressive enough to make the cut as noteworthy.


 * --J.Arlington.


 * Pokémon the evil inside 2 is noteworthy since the intire game and gameplay takes place in an ABS enviroment. There isn't only one abs system but more close to 20 different types. Each bossfight has a unique abs system made for it. It has only custom-made chipsets which we're severly editted graphics from the original Pokémon gold/silver/crystal games. All characterset are custom made and fully animated (if a character reloads his weapon, it's an actual animation just to give an example). And not to forget the cutscenes the game is filled with, those are defenatly noteworthy by themselfs.


 * For those who haven't I suggest you play the game. Then tell me the gameplay of the game ISN'T unique. But you can't since no other full rm2k(3)game has the same gameplay. It's known in most RM2K communities, it received good reviews at gamingw.net and is often reffered to on the gamingw forums.


 * I mailed the author, he provided me with a direct link to the most reliable host. The website seems to be alittle outdated, the author said he'll update it this week with several links to the games. Here is the one he gave me for Pokémon The Evil Inside 2: Pokémon, The Evil Inside 2 Download (It will require a 45 second wait, but the download speed is pretty decent.)
 * L33tj0s 09:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The gameplay is good, but not really "unique." Colt wasn't the first person to ever use a ABS, nor was any other RPG Maker user. It was also not the first RPG Maker game to use an ABS.. Not even the first game to use one fully. I'm not saying it's not a good game, because it is a good game, but it's just not popular enough. I know it's pretty popular in the GamingW forums, and maybe a few other places, but not really anywhere else. If you go to any RPG Maker forum and mention A Blurred Line or the Way, though, almost everybody has played one of the two or at least heard of it. M2K 20:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, then I'll rest my case. I did place the piece I wrote on a seperate artical under the RPG Maker games catagory, I hope it's okay. Also I am very intrested in any of the other fully ABS game(s), was it also a shooting ABS or your typical Legend of Zelda gameplay? I'd really like to check out the games with a simular gameplay to Pokémon: The Evil Inside 2. If you could mail me some titles and possible download locations, i'd really apreciate it. Since the whole wiki idea is a bit new to me, you can contact me trough e-mail: l33tj0s@gmail.com or made leave a post/edit on my user discussion page. Thanks in advance.


 * Dispite the fact you guys didn't accept my views of a noteworthy game, I have to say you guys did a good job at creating and maintaining a RPG Maker artical.
 * L33tj0s 20:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The PTEI 2 article is all right with me, but some other people may not agree.. I can think of a few games with a shooting ABS, though, so I'll get back to you on that. M2K 20:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is a good game for being made with RM2K -- better than many others of its kind. However, I agree with M2K that it's just not popular or widely-known as of yet to be placed in the noteworthy games section.  Perhaps if it survives for a year or so and grows in terms of its fanbase and regard (as with The Way or A Blurred Line), then I would be more likely to support its place here.  There are, afterall, a few dozen titles one can pinpoint throughout the life of the community and program's use that can boast unique features, but that simply aren't considered by most to be overwhelmingly groundbreaking, or have massive fan followings.  Again, I say we give it some time and see whether the game sinks or survives.  --J. Arlington.
 * I see the point you guys are trying to make and can't help but agree. Perhaps the series will one day find a place here. M2K thanks for the edits on the PTEI2 page, I seem to have let some errors slip through. I'll be awaiting to hear from you on those other shooting abs rpg maker games.
 * L33tj0s 13:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Super Columbine Massacre RPG
This is probably the first and most popular Rm2k game to go into main-stream news. Who thinks we should add it? NOTE: My username is Jasonflare--69.139.36.194 18:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I do. For perhaps the first time in history, something RPG Maker-related is in the mainstream media. Super Columbine Massacre RPG definitely belongs among the ranks of A Blurred Line, Legion Saga, and The Way (and a lot more games that SHOULD be in that section), because let's face it, if that's not wiki-able notability, I don't know what is! (Besides, it has its own wiki page already.) And although I can't reveal myself, let's just say I'm the same "nameless nutjob" who posted that comment about Gaming Ground Zero months ago.

"List of RPG Maker Games"
Most RM games are non-notable in the broad Internet sense, but perhaps a list page (separate from the main "RPG Maker" article) would be an informative "Who's Who" in RM games. I'm not sure if this idea has ever been brought up before, but all over Wikipedia, there are lists of various (fairly insignificant) items with a central theme. It could work, you know? --Nameless Nutjob
 * This is actually a good idea, in my opinion. R id E  the Lightning ! 20:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

External Links --> Fansites section
I'd like to discuss the inclusion of a fansites section to the External Links of this page. According to #3 here, links promoting other sites are to be normally avoided. Although this is up to interpretation, I think that a link to a fansite only serves to promote it, and thus ruins the objectivity of the article. However, #3 here (I erroneously linked here in the edit summary), a single link to a major fansite is okay. I understand these are only guidelines and not official policy, but I do mean well.--DethFromAbove 22:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know you mean well. but RPG Maker is 100% reliant on the communities formed around it, completely unlike any other PC or console "game". it is USELESS without these communities. as for just one, which one? there's no single fansite that services both the console and PC software equally. the fansites are very important to RPG Maker, which I believe makes for a special case where they should be linked to here. However, I'm all for trimming the section down. RMXP.org and GW should stay for the PC RPG Makers. they're the biggest and have the most resources. for the console series, the only quality sites in existence are the pavilion and magazine (which are both officially supported and endorsed by the US publisher agetec), so both those need to stay as well. Trim the others off if you want, but until the majority of contributors to this section say otherwise, I'll keep reposting the 4 I mentioned above.
 * It's not your job - nor is it mine - to support RPG Maker by linking to the communities formed around it. Making it your job, and consequently other people's job who view and follow the fansite links, defeats the article's objectivity. This article's job is to inform, not to support. I don't think those site's hits come entirely from this article, either. Since we're going to get nowhere with this discussion with just the two of us, I'd like others' input on this, if possible.--DethFromAbove 00:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, my own personal view is that the fansite links are okay. I think that the 5,000 member rule does a perfectly good job of filtering out blatant promotion-seeking links. After all, when you have 5,000+ members you no longer *need* promotion. You've already got quite a few members, a few random stragglers from wikipedia aren't going to have a big impact. I think the lack of significant motivation to seek promotion is a good reason to assume that whoever added the link to a particular established site is trying to contribute something legitimate, rather than self promotion.


 * Deth, I also disagree with you about the article's objectivity being compromised by links to fansites. Most wikipedia articles have external links to places with more information, and that's what fansites *are*. Official sites are definitely good to have in the links, but I'd hazard to say that fansite links are actually *more* important to have. From my experience, official sites are little more than glorified advertisements, and often have miniscule content compared to their fan-made counterparts. Pokemon's official site comes to mind. Few of the official sites actually go in depth on how to use their product, and I don't think RPG Maker is an exception. Fan sites usually have significant libraries of articles and tutorials to do just that.


 * Considering that there are only eight links in the fansite section, two of which are officially endorsed, and one that's not technically even a website/community I think worrying about any negative impact they're having on the article is making a mountain out of a molehill. The wiki appears to be especially useful to the article; it gives readers a place to write about whatever it is about RPG Maker that they want without cluttering wikipedia up with articles about say "custom battle systems" and "Kamau." Hopefully people trying to promote their game will see that that wiki is amuch more apropriate choice for promotion than wikipedia is. - Abyssal_Leviathin


 * I'm in favor of the links as well. I'd go into further detail, but Abyssal_Leviathin said it perfectly.Valkysas 06:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll be removing the external link notice block thing at the end of the day unless anyone thinks this actually has to be discussed more. only one person is in favor of removing them, several people are in support of the links. we did this democratically, and the majority rules. external links stay.


 * Wikipedia is not a democracy. - deadkid_dk 21:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * (from the link above) "Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion" Thats what this was. a consensus among several people.

Laxius Power problems...again
I've noticed that the RPG Maker 2000 game, "Laxius Power," was added to the noteworthy games section via an extremely promotional fanlike description, using the terms "very well made," "excellent," and other such heavily-biased non-NPOV phrases to describe its storyline and design. I cleaned up the description and made it much more acceptable. If I remember correctly, this had been an ongoing problem with the separate Laxius Power pages (as well as those for other creations by its author) here, which were eventually all deleted. I suspect the same person who wrote them might have written the entry in question, but either way, it's fixed for the time being. --Ashkenazi 04:30, 31 May 2006 (PST).


 * Thank you for fixing that. it was a horrible mess.

Valkysas 01:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Anytime. ^_~  There seems to be a lot of that going around regarding Laxius Power, and not just here at Wikipedia.  I've heard of past incidents regarding dozens and dozens of rave reviews for it coming allegedly from the same one or two IP addresses at freeware sites like "Game Hippo" or "Home of the Underdogs" when they hosted it, so it's a good idea to keep an eye on entries surrounding the game to make sure things doesn't get out of control.  --Ashkenazi 05:30, 31 May 2006 (PST).


 * However this was never proven to be true. The rumor was allegedly spread by a LP hater.
 * considering how many times the LP entry here has been changed to an absurdly promotional work, I can believe the fake review thing.
 * Then I have to say you are a gullible person. You'd have to be blind or just purposefully closing you eyes not to notice the same guy ruined several times the LP entries (filling them with insults) and even suggested them for deletion. He is arguably the guy spreading the untrue rumors about LP.


 * Regardless of whether there's someone (or several people) out there who are working against the game, it doesn't change the fact that someone has *also* been violating Wikipedia's NPOV policies over and over again by putting blatantly pro-Laxius Power promotional material up here. I suspect it to be the same person each time, as it's always written in the same broken English, with the same types of spelling errors.


 * Just a comment. The LP fanbase is made of people from Europe, who are likely to use "broken english". 88.209.69.64


 * Having perused through the LP forums, I noticed that a majority of its fanbase, regardless of being European, seems to have a fairly solid grasp on the English language, with a few exceptions. Though it's not just the broken English that draws suspicion that it's the same person (or few people) -- it's the fact that the same promotional catch phrases are used over and over.  Two people who don't understand English that well are likely to make somewhat different mistakes in communication.  Also, one would think that if all of this NPOV-violating material was truly coming from several different individuals, at least some, if not most of them would have understood Wikipedia's policies prior to posting.  --Ashkenazi 07:30, 06 June 2006 (PST)


 * Now, I never said the Game Hippo claims were proven true (which is why I said "allegedly"), but as I have heard this from several different people in several different contexts, and given the similar nature of the Wikipedia Laxius Power incidents, I think a sensible person would be led to seriously consider similar outside accusations as being truthful, in whole or in part. For you to say that we're being "gullible" is, in fact, to turn a blind eye to the existing evidence.


 * If I recall correctly, the Laxius Power articles were corrected many times to clean up the same type of heavy bias that's appeared in this article, and were eventually deleted by an administrator, which leads me to believe that there must have been a pretty good justification for flat-out removing them. If anyone put insults in the articles, I didn't catch it while they were up, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were the target of vandalism.  That sort of repeated exhuberant promotion of a homemade RPG Maker game doesn't justify vandalism or insults, but it most certainly invites them.  It is unusual, also, that such repetitious NPOV-violating entries were never a problem for any of the other noteworthy RPG Maker games listed, even those with larger fanbases and communities such as The Way...


 * Actually, it's a fact that LP has a much larger fanbase and community than The Way. This is an example of bias in Wikipedia, as far as I can tell. 88.209.69.64


 * If you visit the communities at each game's respective sites (not including the temporary Laxius Power backup site), The Way appears to have a larger number of regular posters and legitimate, original fan contributions. In addition, the forums at The Way's website only contain boards for the most recent chapter in the series, rather than all of them, as with the Laxius Power forum.  Given a similar post count for each chapter in the Way series, if earlier chapter forums were not regularly deleted, the post count would be much higher.  The Laxius Power community, conversely, seems to consist of a smaller number of regular posters, some of whom simply post repeatedly in spam-like topics with irrelevant messages.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken, an inordinate percent of the LP community's posts came from an old forum section it had called "Spam Heaven," with topics containing literally tens of thousands of posts that amounted to nothing more than forum members reporting the time of day every few hours, or other such menialities, which say little for the size and breadth of the community.  There were more registered users at the permanent Laxius Power site, but most of them seemed to post once or twice, and then disappear.  In addition, The Way seems to have more original, legitimate fan contributions, whereas a majority of the "fan art" at the Laxius Power site appears to be re-colors or minor edits of the same few drawings done by the game's author himself.  Of course, even if I was wrong on legitimate community size, it wouldn't be an example of violating the NPOV non-bias rules, because I haven't made any statements regarding community size in the article itself.  --Ashkenazi 07:30, 06 June 2006 (PST)


 * Now, I know for a fact that there was a serious problem surrounding all of this at Game Hippo, and that the user comments function for the game was shut down because of it (http://gamehippo.com/search/search_title_1_6c6d71ff932055c63d649c0cf1f9b7d2.shtml) -- this much has been confirmed by the site's moderators -- but I can't say who, or how many people were involved, or to what extent. Interestingly, I remember a response written by Indinera Falls that was posted at Game Hippo refuting an accusation that he wrote the positive reviews, but that he himself agreed it was probably all the work of the same one or two people because the comments were all written in a similar manner.  --Ashkenazi 07:30, 06 June 2006 (PST).


 * More evidence of devious Laxius Power promotion: http://www.laxiuspower.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=64
 * Notice that "Damian," who is really Indinera Falls, is reminding his forum members vote multiple times (once daily, in fact!) for his website and games to top a popular list. This just leads me to further suspect the Game Hippo accusations of being true, and that the same person wrote all of the NPOV-violating Wikipedia entries over the past months, with the blatant intention of making it sound like ZOMFG TEH BEST GAME EVVAR MADDE!!!!!!!!!!111.  I heard this was how Laxius Power won so many popular-vote based Misao Awards, and frankly, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.


 * Frankly, every other site votes multiple times, just check their forums if you don't believe me. That's just part of the game. You seem so heavily biased against LP actually. And honestly, judging from your writing style and persistence, I am goddamn sure that this thing ain't no coincidence. You are the one who spread all the rumors about LP.
 * Frankly, that sounds like an absolutely baseless accusation, and speaks a world of desparation on your part. If anyone you encountered in the past raised a lot of the same points, I wouldn't be at all surprised, given the serial nature of a certain someone's ridiculous and embarrassing attempts at promoting this game, and at so many different sites.  Also, every other site at RPG Wolfpack doesn't cheat and vote multiple times -- just a few of them.  That doesn't excuse cheating, or make it any less immoral.  Just because some people do it doesn't make it okay, and just adds more circumstantial evidence.  Furthermore, if I was out to spread rumors, I could do it a lot more effectively than whatever you might have construed from my (and others) having to correct a certain someone's blatant, NPOV-violating and hilariously-persistent attempts at using Wikipedia as a basis for promotion.  It has not occurred with any of the other noteworthy games here.  You say I and some others here seem bias against Laxius Power  -- wake up call: whoever keeps up with the probably-phony promotions in improper contexts makes people dislike the product.  If it had only happened once here, it would be one thing, and assumed accidental.  It is the act of painfully biased, dishonest, and suspected self-promotion that you'll find people here dislike, because it's a forbidden activity.  It's not necessarily the game, itself.  If you look at my edit of the entry in question, I actually added a few noteworthy features to its description despite having to remove several promotional keywords to make it factual, more informative, and neutral.  Go ahead and keep it up, and it will keep on being an issue.  Follow the rules, and editors will leave you, the game, and the matter to rest.  --Ashkenazi 05:40, 08 June 2006 (PST)


 * This makes sense. For what it's worth, I do not entirely disagree with you. I also happen to know on good authority that some people are working against the game. This does not excuse self-promotion, but certainly invites it. My point is, there are two sides working against each other, and judging from the facts, I'm doubtful one of them is all evil.


 * I agree regarding the presence of both heavily-biased promotions and detractions. It's a war that stimulates the other side to engage in ridiculous activities.  I will suggest we shake hands and stop arguing on this matter, but rather, work together from now on to locate and do away with any instances of pro or anti-Laxius Power bias in the article itself.  This is, after all, what Wikipedia is all about. ^_^ Ashkenazi 05:50, 08 June 2006 (PST)


 * Agreed.

A Blurred Line Info
Since I'm part of the RPG Maker Community, I heard recently that ABL: Line's End, is going to be made in RMXP. Should I add it?
 * Is it true? If it's just a rumor, then no.Valkysas 06:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've heard this, also. I really think it's just a rumor. The only thing official is that it's till being made. I think Lysander86 wants to keep it a surprise. R id E  the Lightning ! 20:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Freudian Way
The whole analysis of The Way being a sexual journey wasn't serious. Cocoa kept saying that as a running joke, and I've heard of no one else that espouses the theory. I'm going to go ahead and take it out. Feel free to put it back in if you think the article needs it, but I'd like to see the proof that people actually think that. --Cronodude360 21:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The article made me wonder. It now informs that the theory is a joke.--Uberisaac 14:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Trimming down of the lists of noteworthy games
If a RPGMaker game is truly noteworthy, then it will have its own article, like Super Columbine Massacre RPG!. Otherwise, it needn't be mentioned in the article. We don't have articles on every single flash game even most of them are a lot more noteworthy than RPGMaker games. Wikipedia is not about what is big in some online community. Thank you. Mackan 11:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Added them back in. for a change that big, it needs to be DISCUSSED beforehand and agreed upon. not a decision for just one person to make.Valkysas 16:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That logic, Mackan, is... flawed. Horribly flawed. If somthing is noteworthy, we have an article for it, but if it is not noteworthy, we delete it? By extention, we'd have no data about anything, just a bunch of article titles, because if somthing were noteworthy enough to be included, an article of it's own would have to be made on it. All data in that article would have to be noteworthy enough to be its own article or it would be deleted as well.
 * Noteworthy is a weasel word If I've ever heard one, so it shouldn't be used at all, but deleating that data because you call it non noteworthy is also NPOV. It is, however, only fair that some amount of information about the final product of this program be included, more than just one. Thanatosimii 16:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If you really want to mention these games, make a new article called Major games made with RPG Maker or something like that, the extensive lists don't really belong in this article. Besides, the descriptions are poor and read like reviews, very unencyclopedic, and there seems to have been several fights/problems/discussions over what games to include. Since none of them are really noteworthy (which isn't a weasel word but one often used in Wikipedia guidelines to decide whether something is worthy of an article or not), the way you chose what one's should be included seems terribly random and asking for edit wars. I'm not gonna revert it but I think this page is governed by the RPG Maker community, and if you're in majority, that's a bad thing and you have a bias. I'm not part of the scene but familiar with the software as well as internet gaming and I think I have a largely unbiased view of what is of interest to this article and what isn't.Mackan 17:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Also,　please be more careful when you revert an article, some of the other changes I made improved the article quality without being controversial. You even removed the reference to Super Columbine RPG!, the most noteworthy RPGmaker game ever. Please act responsibly in your wikipedia editing. Thank you Mackan 17:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry about the mistake I made in reverting then. feel free to add it back. back on topic; if you're not part of the "scene" as you put it, who are you to say that these games are not noteworthy? Thats really a call that only someone actively involved in RPG Maker can make.Valkysas 18:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, you are mistaken, Wikipedia is based on verifiable information and that information is verifiable to everybody, not only the people involved in the RPGMaker scene.Mackan 01:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not mistaken. read the discussion page a bit better. we verified everything recently.Valkysas 01:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken when you suggest "Thats really a call that only someone actively involved in RPG Maker can make". I think it's apparent that's what I was responding to, yet you chose to put words in my mouth and respond to something completely else. Mackan 01:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That being said, after having read through the talk page I do wonder what you mean by "we verified everything recently"? Mackan 01:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Putting up links to your own homepage (suggesting it's officially endorsed because the official site links to yours is mistaken as well) on a list of games doesn't make the games noteable! You have an obvious bias and it's obvious you shouldn't edit this page at all. Please don't tell me there's a link to your site in this article which you put there yourself. I don't know how many guidelines you are violating.Mackan 01:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Pavilion is an officially endorsed site whether you like it or not. The site was designed in 2000 as such, with the executive producer of agetec, Mark Johnson, giving it agetec's official support. We have served as their main promotional element for the series, and we'd even be linked to in RPG Maker 3's manual as the official site rather than rpgmaker.agetec.com if it werent for domain name problems (in fact, the domain name problems we had are the only reason the site at rpgmaker.agetec.com even exists. the pavilion was actually supposed to be at that URL). I'm also an administrator at agetec's own forum, and thus its my job to know what's going on with the console RPG Maker games. Bias? Bias towards what? bias against what? Also, the pavilion listing notable games is just as legitimate as the misao awards are for the PC RPG Maker games. User:Valkysas|Valkysas]] 02:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd like to add that if there is a general consensus reached, i'll have no problem with the notable games list being trimmed down or removed. but whether it stays or goes is not up to one person alone. most people showed their support for keeping it as-is last time the issue came up, with only one wanting to get rid of it. This will likely be the same. lets see some people who actually know something about RPG Maker get on your side, okay? I personally dont think someone who doesnt know anything about RPG Maker should be editing this page, while you say someone who does know quite a bit about RPG Maker shouldnt be editing the page. How much sense does that make?Valkysas 02:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think, if any games are to be included, then the article must represent a global view and should include games made outside of the western RPG making community. I mean, there are no mentions of Japanese games made with RPG Maker even though the program is made in Japan? _dk 03:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, there is a japanese version of wikipedia, with a japanese page on RPG Tsukuru (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%84%E3%82%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB). I would think japanese games belong there, rather than the english page. Also, how would we determine what games are notable in japan, rather than "oh, we just happen to know about this one, and this one..."? I'm not against the idea, I'm just curious how we would manage such a thing. especially since they dont have big sites dedicated to hosting RPG Maker creations like we do, and instead everyone hosts their games on their personal sites. even finding japanese RPG Maker games is often a difficult task, especially for the console series.Valkysas 03:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe there were contests hosted by Enterbrain for RPG Tsukuru games in Japan a few years back....don't know if they still do now, I might have to go look for that. Also, the Japanese wiki page here already listed some sample winners. The problem is, again, selecting which to put on here since I don't think anyone here played them. Well, I haven't. _dk 05:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel there should be no descriptions of these so-called "Notable" games. External links to places with a list of games would be better practice. Wikipedia is a general interest encyclopedia, with gateways (external links) into detailed topics. &mdash; Deckill e r 05:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thats how the section originally was. I'd have no problem doing that again, but many people objected to it before.Valkysas 09:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * We need to define the term "noteworthy". Does it mean controversial? If so, then Columbine RPG is indeed the only noteworthy RPG Maker game (although Laxius Power does have its controversial sides too). But if we're talking about popularity, which IMO really defines a noteworthy game, then Laxius Power and Ahriman's Prophecy are miles ahead of Columbine RPG, with objectively much bigger communities and download totals.
 * The following policies, guidelines, and essays will help define notability: What Wikipedia is not, Notability (fiction), Notability, Deletion policy, and Fancruft. Those are usually a good place to start. &mdash; Deckill e r 08:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The console RPG Maker series has it's share of controversial games, such as Geroge W. Bush's Cocaine Quest, but I wouldnt exactly call it noteworthy.Valkysas 09:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

'''Thats how the section originally was. I'd have no problem doing that again, but many people objected to it before.Valkysas 09:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)'''

Actually, I believe I still have the originals from when that took place. On track, since the term "noteworthy" seems to need a new definition, then why not make it "RPG Maker Community Noteable Games" to narrow it down to games that are noteable within the separate communities? Just a thought.--Ixzion 16:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

RPG Maker Wiki???
Should RPG Maker Wiki really be in there? The members stats are all of Wikia's members stats, so they aren ot truly the site's. I think only a ocuple of people actually go there, and it doesn't have that much content.--Unknown

The point of the RMwiki being there was to provide a place for RPG Maker "spin-off articles" to go where they wouldn't be cluttering up Wikipedia. Examples of the articles including "Kamau" and "CBS." Abyssal leviathin 04:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Even so, there is no real reason for it to be here. The Age of Empires Wiki does not belong int he Age of Empires article simply because it does nto contain enough onofrmation on it.--Unknown

Ruby Game Scripting System
Ruby Game Scripting should not redirect here. Ruby can be used to script a variety of games not just RPG Maker things.
 * Ruby Game Scripting System is RMXP's specific implementation and game API for Ruby. It should definitely redirect here. Unless of course you know somewhere else were the term "Ruby Game Scripting System" is used? --Casiotonetalk 19:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Any ideas on were to buy?
Has anybody got any idea were to buy the console versions of these for england. i live in england with an english ps2 so im not sure whether if i bought a american version it would work or not.so can anyone help find a site which sells english copies or american that can ship to england. i dont want to pay over £25 which is around $45 so please help. oh and 1 last thing. i have checked ebay and there not selling any apart form american ones which cost like £10 extra to ship over costing me like £35 which is around $ 70.


 * None have been released in the UK. Your PS2 wouldnt play a US version either. most console RPGMs are still around $30-$40 as well, even used.

The Chairman's Quest?
Is this game truly notable? M2K E  18:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

NO!

Major Changes Suggestion Including Seperate Articles
I would like to propose several major changes to the articles about RPG Maker here on Wikipedia. This current article is much to long, and is somewhat confusing in that various sections refer to RPG Maker, but not a specific member of the series. This article is already over the preffered size. Each RPG Maker is quite distinct, coming with newer functions, better graphics, and so forth. Leaving them all in one article is almost like putting all Final Fantasy games in one article. Here is my suggestion:

Articles to be created: RPG Makers - A guide to what RPG Makers are, which ones exist (such as the RPG Maker Series), and a little information about RPG Makers' history. RPG Maker Series - Contains general information about the series, including creators, translators, piracy information, background, and history. RPG Maker 1995 (RM95) - Tells about the graphics, options, gameplay, and distrubution of this version. RPG Maker 2000 (RM2K) - Tells about the graphics, options, gameplay, and distrubution of this version. RPG Maker 2003 (RM2K3) - Gives information about the graphics, options, new battleview available, the various versions distrubuted, when released, etc. RPG Maker XP - Tells about the scripting system, advanced graphics, etc. RPG Maker Games List - Brief descriptions and details about various noteworthy RPG Maker games. (also include the Playstation versions on different article, I just don't know much about these versions)

Articles that exist: Sim_RPG_Maker - About a Tactical RPG Maker, apparently also by ASCII.

This will make these articles clearer, more concise, easier to read, and can be easily organized. Information about 'noteworthy' games probably NEEDS to be put in a seperate article, because of all the clutter it creates on the main pages. I'm willing to put some of these articles together if you all support this idea.

(Note: I am very willing to put together most of this, and ensure that each article will be clear and understandable. I'll have plenty of time to do this, so if you all agree, then I'll go ahead and start. Also, please remember, if it doesn't turn out well, we'll just not delete this article immediately, until we see that it'll work out. I'm willing to revert things back if we decide it was better as it is.) Kopf1988


 * How about this: An RPG Maker (PC) article, for the PC games, and a RPG Maker {console) for the console games? Then the [[RPG Makers article can be moved to RPG Maker. M2K E  19:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with M2K. Abyssal leviathin 20:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I also like this idea. I could easily set up a page for the Console RPG Makers. I definately know enough about them. Valkysas 21:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * How's this look - RPG Maker Series. First users will see RPG Maker which will be a slightly modified version of RPG Makers, or possibly a disambiguation?. That will link to RPG Maker Series, which will include links to the PC version and Console version pages. Anything about the exact functionality of the various programs will be included on their seperate pages. I just thought it would be easier to keep them -all- seperate, because then we could easily detail the list of functions, advancements, advantages, and differences between each individual program in a very clear manor.

Should this be merged with "RPG Maker Series"?
This article contains mostly the exact same information as RPG Maker Series, so I think they should be merged. Anybody else? Covarr 17:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Please read the above talk section and you will see that RPG Maker Series is being created to reorganize the RPG Maker articles of wikipedia. All RPG Makers will be either getting their own articles, or they will be sorted into articles based on type (PC or console), and the list of noteworthy games is also going to be part of a seperate article. We are trying to clean up RPG Maker articles. Kopf1988 14:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So then the current "RPG Maker" article would go to the first Playstation RPG Maker (since it's title IS simply RPG Maker)? So we'd have articles for RPG Maker, RPG Maker 2, RPG Maker 3, RPG Maker 2000, RPG Maker 2003, and RPG Maker XP? The PC RPG Makers may be similar enough to share one article (the type-sorting you mentioned as a possibility above), but the console versions are 100% different engines and each would would have to have it's own article. So when should the conversion start? is RPG Maker Series complete enough yet to take this article's place?Valkysas 15:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not quite sure yet on that. I can easily have articles ready for all that we discussed, I just need to make sure to plan and organize it well. I don't want to get a bunch of jumbled confusion again, lol. I'll probably go through RPG Maker Series a little more tonight, and possibly start creating the new articles. If you look at RPG Maker Series, you'll notice the template that links to all the proposed articles. I think it would be hard to group all the PC versions together, since although they are similar, each one has an expansive list of new features and upgrades. Especially for RMXP, which has ruby and everything that comes with that. Kopf1988 05:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There. If you look through RPG Maker Series, you'll see all the links should redirect to the seperate pages. I don't know much about the Console Versions of RPG Maker, so someone is going to have to fill in the details. I can get to most of the PC Versions later. I started by using RM2K, though, and don't know much about 95. Also... should we move the fansites to a seperate article? Maybe combined with the 'notewothy games' article? Kopf1988 06:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I can organize the console RPGM communities to get to work on those articles. This does leave a question of what to do with this article now.Valkysas 15:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed fansite listing
The list was out of control, seeminly everyone with an RPG Maker site was adding their links to the list. It was blatant advertising. People were removing links and replacing them with their own, putting their respective sites at the top of the list, this was totally against wikipedia guidelines. 2 or 3 is fine, 20 or 30 is not.75.7.194.96 22:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * An external link to the most popular fansite is allowed, so in reality, there should only be one. In RPG maker's case, I think we can make an exception and keep 2-3. &mdash; Deckill e r 03:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I re-added the fansite links: they deserve to be here. However, I removed several of the blatant advertisements. Despite this there are still a lot of links, and I think you're probably right about there being too many. But since the article is being split along the console series/pc series line the respective fansite links for each page will be smaller and more acceptable. And I think we can remove the foreign language links. What good are they in the english language article? You're right that there were problems with the link section, but problems should be fixed rather than having a whole section deleted because of minor nuisances. Especially since the page is being divided anyway. Abyssal leviathin 16:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Re-added pavilion and mag links. both sites cover the entire console series, and so if other sites that cover all the PC installments are going to be listed on this page, they should be as well. None of the sites that were left on the list after all that "pruning" supported the console makers at all, and they deserve to be represented just as much as the Multi-PC RPGM sites.Valkysas 01:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. ^_^ Abyssal leviathin 18:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No matter how you put it, it all comes down to this: RPG Maker magazine isnt "official".


 * Yes it is. http://p068.ezboard.com/fagetecfrm3.showMessage?topicID=1965.topic On the official agetec message board, the forum administrator (me) listed it as such. I distinctly remember the conversations me, ixzion, and the highest of higher-ups at agetec had about the official status. its officially endorsed by agetec, you have no idea what you're talking about. Valkysas 01:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess they skipped the big topic. I mean, the site even has a header for itself. :p --Ixzion 17:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)