Talk:Ra'anana

I moved this POV paragraph here: -- Zoe
 * Raanana's story is the story of the establishment of Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel, a story of Zionist fulfillment, a struggle for the country's independence and its establishment as the State of Israel. A story of a small settlement, which had 300 residents at the end of the War of Independence (1948), and today it boasts approximately 70,000 residents.

(moved from article)
Vonfraginoff 21:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Ra'anana's Child Welfare Department has recently been plagued by a small group of possibly as many as 10 fathers who have decided to make the city a target of a misguided campaign to get more access to their children than the courts have allowed them. This group constantly uses this entry in wikipedia as well as other public outlets to try and make it seem like they're a large group of mistreated fathers when in fact they're no more than a few whiners (who happen to know about wikipedia. Note how many times this entry has been changed by them in order to reflect the agenda of a group which would have no place in any regular encyclopedia's entry for a city.  The group's main outlet run by one of the father's is the agenda based new-raananalist whose link is below . Note in the edit history how many times this small group has abused the city's entry in wikipedia for their own politics. No doubt by tomorrow this entry will have been removed and replaced with the father's usual propoganda but if you read this entry while it's up then see how fast they change it.


 * 1. There are thousands of men in Ra'anana who are divorced and are denied equal access to their children. 2. These fathers have every democratic right to express themselves in each and every forum which is relevant to their being denied equal access to their kids. 3. Loving, caring and responsible fathers who have had their children taken away from them and complain of the pain that they and their children suffer from are not: "whiners." www.apa.org/releases/custody2.htmlTo have callously stated this illustrates a complete lack of feeling, empathy for both the dads and their kids daily suffering. Ra'anana and every city around the world would be better off if both moms and dads spoke out on behalf of and worked as a team for their children. 4. Yes, I am proud of my role as a children's rights activist, no less than serving my country as a reserve officier in the Israel Defense Forces. 5. The above entry was never removed. Again, this statement shows an inherent feeling of paranoia. But the posters do need to sign their comments or risk having their comments deleted according to Wiki policy. 6. The deep emotional and mental suffering that children experience when separated from their parents is hardly "propaganda." www.childrensjustice.org/sharedparenting.htm 7. If a mother is vengeful and angry and runs to the family court (only a small minority of moms are this destructive) to obtain a restraining order, one must realize that it is not the family courts which decide how much time dads are allowed with their children - it is the child welfare department of the city which makes recommendations to the court. This places the responsiblity of child custody at the front door of every city hall in Israel. The mayor and child welfare department have the power to unite father and child, rather than separate. IsraelBeach 08:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Facts
The Jerusalem Post and the Israel News Agency have reported, at least twice, on Ra'anana's documented gender bias practice in their child welfare department. Sara Silber, a respected child psychologist in Ra'anana has gone on public record as to these archaic practices. Ra'anana's new mayor appears to be taking action on this issue, as I and child psychologists have met with him and senior staff members of the child welfare department. Other issues for which Ra'anana has suffered from include the building of tall commercial structures within the city. And questions about the quality of water and if residential buildings in Ra'anana can withstand an earthquake. I am not bashing the City of Ra'anana, as I believe this city is one of the best in Israel but neither will I allow "whitewashing" of serious issues that the City of Ra'anana faces. A city can only improve when we address the problems it has, rather than ignoring them. The above story about Ra'anana does not contain one pimple, not one blemish as if Ra'anana lived in a vacuum. As if Ra'anana was a utopia - for which it is not. Wiki does not accept sterile, clean advertisments of people, places and things. And yes, the groups.yahoo.com/group/newraanana/ NewRaanana Yahoo community forum, with over 1,300 members, supports free speech and children's rights. You will not find NewRaanana deleting facts as is found in this Wiki article. It states above: "newraanana was formed as a reaction to israelbeach getting scolded for unjustly badmouthing a fellow Raananite's business in public." This is totally untrue as IsraelBeach had purchased imported packaged food from a store in Ra'anana which did not bear any expiration dates. (I still have the package for anyone to examine). As such, he and his child became sick. IsraelBeach complained to the store owner who took no action to remove the expired food from his shelves. IsraelBeach and others then tried to post an alert on another community list regarding expired food. The Yahoo list owner refused to post the warning. NewRaanana was then born. A community list which would serve the good interests of all Ra'anana residents and not the agenda of one Yahoo groups owner who actually lives in another town! A community list which does not allow personal attacks as Raananalist does. Lastly the mentioning of any legal action against my ex-wife (and any other personal gossip about any other couple in this Payton Place) has nothing to do whatsoever with the City of Ra'anana and does not belong here. And if one is to go so low to try to use my family against me, (which can only hurt my children) then please document where her name is mentioned when you state that her name has "been dragged through the mud". I have respect for my ex-wife, the mother of my children and resent any undocumented accusations. Let's focus on Ra'anana - the good and the bad - not about destructive gossip regarding my or anyone elses personal family life. I also suggest that anyone who edits this page ID's themselves according to Wiki policy.IsraelBeach 07:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The paragraph in questions does not belong in an encyclopedia entry about the city of Ra'anana. At best, this is local news: of interest only to a local minority, irrelevant tomorrow. Save your diatribe for local forums. --Woggly 10:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As such "local news" i.e.- environmental issues are discussed in such cities as New York City - human rights, the practice of gender bias in governmental departments, earthquake infrastructure protection and water quality are not defined as mere "diatribes." IsraelBeach 11:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * New York City: 8.1 million residents. Ra'anana: 80 thousand residents. Vive la difference. Only one of the many reasons why local events in New York city make international news more often than local events in Ra'anana make Israeli news. Plus which, your beef with the city of Ra'anana doesn't even seem to have made news in Israel (show me articles from national sources like Ha'aretz, Ma'ariv, Yediot Aharonot or even Ynet and I may reconsider). I suspect this is precisely why you are so intent on including the information on Wikipedia: you'd like to see the topic get more recognition SOMEWHERE. However, Wikipedia is really not the place to promote your agenda. Topics should first make the news, then enter wikipedia - not the other way round. --Woggly 11:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As taken from my personal page, I state that I have the utmost respect for Ra'anana's new, pro-active Mayor Hofree. He listens and responds to the public. He has my full support for facing the many challenges that he inherited from the past mayor. As to demographics, city population numbers are not relevant when discussing local problems for which any city faces! Ra'anana's problems have been addressed hundreds of times in both the local and national media. Do you wish to discuss Uzi Cohen for starters? My only agenda for Ra'anana is to see it grow in a healthy and prosperous manner for all of its residents, including our children. IsraelBeach 12:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Israelbeach. It can be AIDS, poverty, poor quality of education, political corruption or unemployment it matters not if you come from New York or Ra'anana. It matters that the problems get solved. And Uzi Cohen was just the tip of the iceberg regarding what faces Ra'anana. Woggly should take her head out of the sand and begin by performing a search on YNET for Uzi Cohen. Bonnieisrael 13:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Whoa there. Did I say anything about Uzi Cohen? Did I say anything about earthquake infrastructure or water quality or AIDS or poor education? Adraba, add these topics, expand and improve the article, if it's encyclopedic and well written I'll applaud you. However, you have yet to convince me that there is anything unique that the plight of divorced fathers in Ra'anana is a significant feature of the city. In an article so short that it doesn't even mention Uzi Cohen, devoting an entire paragraph to the matter of fathers' rights creates the impression that this is a big issue in Ra'anana (as compared to any other city in Israel). It really is not. I brought up demographics because New York is so huge, that it's virtually a country, and municipal matters in New York are therefore of greater interest to the rest of the world. Regardless, I do agree that municipal issues in a small city CAN be relevant on a city's wikipedia article - but not when there's only one issue described in great detail, while other issues seemingly don't exist at all. The paragraph is disproportional. I would delete it again, but I suspect that Israelbeach would simply use the sockpuppet Bonnieisrael to circumvent the three revert rule and revert the article again. I don't have patience for this kind of silly edit war. --Woggly 17:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Woggly, do you know how to use Google? Go to www.Google.com and perform a search for "gender bias ra'anana". You will find this article from the Jerusalem Post lnx.andreabocelli.org/phptxt/thread.php?topic_id=2643among many others. Woggly you state that you help write the etiquette for Wiki - so then why the personal attack against Bonnie? I have an applauding degree of admiration for Israelbeach, his efforts in Wiki, his efforts for Israel and his highly commendable, sincere efforts to provide both mothers and fathers with equal access to their children in Ra'anana. Is that asking too much? Israelbeach, for all the flak he gets speaking up for kids belongs on the Ra'anana City Council with a salary. Davidstone 17:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Sockpuppets of the world unite! Actually, what I did was go to www.google.co.il and perform a search for "שירותים סוציאלים רעננה" and other key phrases. You are welcome to direct me to some articles other than the Jerusalem Post article which is about a bias in Israeli government in general, not specific to the city of Ra'anana. --Woggly 17:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

From RfC

 * This issue should be covered in Single parent, rather than here. That article is need of a more global view. -- E ivindt@c 19:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * EivindFOyangen, thank you for interceding here. Woggly would never know the pain of having your children taken away from you only because you were a male. Not being able to make them breakfast or read a sweet bedtime story. There are many other issues confronting the residents of Ra'anana and in following your lead for RFC, I have published this page on groups.yahoo.com/group/newraanana/ NewRaanana, trusting that others will discuss current commercial zoning laws which allow skycrapers to be built in Ra'anana, public transportation on Saturdays and the enforcement of health and trade laws on stores which attempt to sell expired food. There is much more to Ra'anana than gender bias discrimination in it's child welfare department. Ra'anana is truly a beautiful and enlightened city. A town where secular and religious Jews practice tolerance and understanding. Beautiful as a result of it's residents and their effective interaction with Ra'anana's mayor and city council. Let's hear from others on other issues! IsraelBeach 20:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * All of the above is very interesting fiction except for one fact. Someone did not have the guts to sign their name to the above comment. There is no accountability. Therefore, according to Wiki guidelines, "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references." Verifiability I will delete the above comment within 24 hours if the writer does not ID themselves. Lastly, whoever cares to see the "infamous imported food package" which bears no expiration date, which made my children sick - please contact me. It's nice to get away from gender bias discrimination and discuss how a few import food stores in Ra'anana accept "dumped food" (returned to the manufacturer after it's expiration date and exported overseas and sold without expiration dates. Does this belong in Wiki? Yes - under the word fraud and food poisoning. IsraelBeach 21:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Verifiability is not relevant to comments on a talk page. There is currently no Wikipedia policy that states that people leaving comments on talk pages must identify themselves. You can check the history of the page and see who left the comment (a new user going by the name of user: Kfceater), and if you feel you have a problem with this user, there are plenty of options for addressing your problems. If, however, you choose to ignore these options and delete the above comment, I will revert and RfC you. Also, please stop these silly ad hominem attacks. The fact that I am not a divorced father does not affect my ability to judge an article about a city. --Woggly 22:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Please cease all personal attacks - discuss issues pertaining to Ra'anana
Woggly, before you even begin to think of judging the editorial merits of what copy belongs to a city, you should cease your personal attacks. Calling Bonnie and David "Sockpuppets" is not becoming of an Wiki adm! Furthermore, please read the Wiki guide to Talkpages Tutorial_%28Talk_pages%29 where it states: "You should sign your comments by typing a special code for just your username, or another special code for your username and a time signature." As an adm, you should be aware of these basic facts. Lastly, I am pleased if this talkpage attracts more people into Wiki and we find Ra'anana residents and the world public discussing such topics as lack of expiration dates on food packages and public transportation in and around Ra'anana on Saturdays. When we stop learning, we die. To all newbies to Wiki - enjoy! IsraelBeach 22:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Kfceater, while it is true there is no policy obliging you to sign your comments with your true name, it is expected as a matter of etiquette that you sign with your wikipedia user name. You can sign and datestamp by typing four tildes, thus: ~ . I'd also like to say that your arguments are weakened by the fact that you bring up irrelevant outside information. The two of you are clearly involved in some personal conflict that has nothing to do with wikipedia. I care not one whit who said what on which Ra'anana forum that has nothing to do with wikipedia. Your custody battles and food poisoning traumas have nothing to do with the article under discussion, and should not be brought up here by either party. Please conduct your personal affairs elsewhere. Lastly, I see no need to respect any user whose sole contribution to wikipedia has been to participate in this argument. I judge these users to be sockpuppets. Use of sockpuppets is pathetic. I will now remove the offending paragraph from the article in question, alert other adminstrators to the situation here, and wash my hands of this idiotic affair. Gentlemen, truly your energies could be better spent promoting your causes at the city council, than fighting over a paper-tiger paragraph on wikipedia. Shabat shalom. --Woggly 12:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This page is supposed to be discussing the city of Ra'anana. Instead, unsigned users are posting personal messages of hate against Israelbeach, David and myself. Wiki clearly states in it's policy that all messages should be signed or be removed after providing time to the posters to place their signatures next to their posts. I have removed some of the unsigned posts which add nothing to the substance of the City of Ra'anana. Furthermore, Woggly, I do not understand your clear abuse in name calling and vandalizing this page. You throw a rock and then run as you state: "I will now remove the offending paragraph ... and wash my hands of this idiotic affair." You are an adm, you should be setting an example! As Kfceater objectively states: "I'd also like to say that your arguments are weakened by the fact that you bring up irrelevant outside information." Please keep this discussion on the City of Ra'anana, it's good and bad, not personal conflicts which detract from this article. Bonnieisrael 16:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit war
There has been an edit war going on regarding the apparent gender bias. I don't know anything about this situation, but I tend to agree with Woggly for the simple reason that there are no verifiable sources presented. There is a link to a www.israelnewsagency.com/israelfathersgenderbiascustody8890309.html story from the Jerusalem Post, but that only mentions Ra'anana once, in the very last paragraph. I'm not sure what fact that source is supposed to verify, but I think that better sources need to be provided in order for this information to be included in the article. jaco ♫ plane 06:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Do we have any evidence this stuff was in fact published in the Jerusalem Post?Geni 06:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Is Israel News Agency a reliable source? --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 06:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The Israel News Agency is an Israel Government Press Office accredited news organization since 1995 which has and continues to work with the Israel Government Press Office, the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, the Israel Defense Forces and the Prime Minister's Office. Copy from the Israel News Agency has been and continues to be used by major media outlets worldwide. A simple search for the Israel News Agency on Google and Google News will illustrate thousands of news and feature stories read by over 60 million readers. The Israel News Agency uses hundreds of reliable governmental and commercial sources in it's stories. Please use Alexa.com if you have any doubts. Thank you. IsraelBeach 06:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have just performed a search for the Israel News Agency. What appears is a story that they carried from yesterday's Weekend Edition of The Jerusalem Post - a cover story describing IsraelBeach's contributions to the Anglo community in Israel. www.israelnewsagency.com/anglosisraelinternetgroupsforumsjerusalempostleyden480422.htmlThere is no credibility lacking here. Nancetlv 13:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Just from reading the article, it seems to me that the first sentence may be relevant if verified, but the later commentary by and actions of a psychologist is not something that belongs here. perhaps the psychologist was a renowned professor at the leading university who is the spokeperson for a coalition of notable protesting organizations? but an individual citizen psychologist giving unsolicited commentary and suggestions is not newsworthy, much less encyclopedia-worthy. Appleby 06:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Gender bias in child custody cases
The gender bias accusation stuff doesn't really belong here. Gender bias in family law is a huge issue, and there's nothing particularly special about Ra'anana in that regard. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 06:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Josh, you are correct that gender bias discrimination is a huge issue. It's also a very huge and sensitive issue in the City of Ra'anana which has the highest divorce rate of any city in Israel! In addition, one of the senior members of Ra'anana's Child Welfare department recently stated: "Children do not belong with the father, it is the mother who is supposed to care for them." This gender biased comment was taped by me. Who is responsible for child custody in Israel? It's not the family courts. The family courts only act on the recommendations from the City Child Welfare Department. Who is responsible for the Child Welfare Department? The mayor and city council! So as we can see, it may be a national problem in Israel with an archaic Knesset Custodian Law going back to 1962 (it is now being reformed in the Knesset) but it is a problem which has it's very roots in city government itself as the city makes the recommendations to the family court. As private citizens, family psychologists and I have from Ra'anana have met with Ra'anana Mayor Hofree to discuss these problems. The mayor was very responsive and coordinated meetings with senior staff of Ra'anana's Child Welfare Department and the City Councilperson responsible for Ra'anana's Social Welfare Department. Gender bias discrimination when it affects our children's mental and emotional health is no less a factor than environmental, transportation, corruption and employment issues which confront Ra'anana and other cities. If Wiki's entry of New York City can discuss problems of gender bias discrimination www.nytimes.com/2005/05/08/magazine/08FATHERS.html?ex=1145851200&en=1317d7e0e3d23fdf&ei=5070crime, unemployment and pollution in the "Big Apple" then gender bias discrimination can be discussed as a more than relevant news topic when it applies to Ra'anana. Lastly, the Jerusalem Post's story on gender bias discrimination in custody cases uses the alias of a "George". That "George" is me and the real city is Ra'anana. George represents thousands of fathers in Israel who protest against both local and national government institutions regarding gender bias discrimination www.israelnewsagency.com/israel_fathers_children_custody_courts_jerusalempost84460410.html If we chose to ignore the tears of our children as they are separated from their fathers' love and care as news stories, then we may as well be callous to all social issues. Yes, this story belongs under gender bias, but it also belongs under every city and town which ignores the issue where citizens have openly protested. There have been several news stories in local Ra'anana newspapers, in addition to national media here in Israel on this topic. As such, I will scan these local stories written in Hebrew and place them on the Web for all to see. As you state: "nothing particularly special about Ra'anana in that regard" - it is because you do not live here. You do not read the local press. I can't fault you for that. Lastly, when a respected Ra'anana family psychologist, Sara Silber, is noted on her Wiki article for speaking up against a "sick welfare department" in Ra'anana and provides the mayor and the Ra'anana welfare department with concrete plans for improvement, this is news. It should also be stated that Silber is not working against the city, but rather trying to work with it for all of Ra'anana's children. Josh - what issue can be of greater importance to a city than the welfare of the children who live in it? Best wishes. IsraelBeach 07:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I live in Ra'anana. I work in Ra'anana. And I would like to see ALL of the news which affects Ra'anana in this article. As the article stands without any comment regarding gender bias discrimination, water quality, environmental zoning issues, it appears as nothing less than a pristine advertisement. Pleased that Beach is speaking up. There should be more dads and concerned residents like him! Nancetlv 13:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The disingenuity and self-serving aspects of this are breathtaking. Sara Silber, is noted on her Wiki article for speaking up against a "sick welfare department"  -- great argument, Israelbeach, except you yourself created the Sara Silber article, and you yourself put in the Ra'anana reference. You've just proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that your interests are not bettering this encyclopedia, but rather, furthering your own political and social cause. That's not what Wikipedia is for. If Nancetlv wants "all of the news about Ra'anana", Nancetlv should go to a town website about Ra'anana; that's not what Wikipedia is for either. It's not your local news feed or your local campaign site either. And most important -- the point that Israelbeach and all of his supporters don't seem to understand at all: Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Wikipedia is not for propaganda, self-promotion, or advocacy of any kind. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 14:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see how the fact that Sara Silber has a Wikipedia article written by Israelbeach is relevant. If there is a controversy in Ra'anana regarding this issue and there are reliable sources that can be provided that are specific to the Ra'anana situation, then I see no problem with including this in the article. However, I have yet to see such sources. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, but you should also assume good faith. jaco ♫ plane  16:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Gender bias discrimination is not "soapbox" material. It is hard news which damages our kids. This news, as Beach correctly stated, can be found in both national and local newspapers here in Israel. I believe that our local newspaper "Kol Ra'anana" is what Beach intends to scan and upload. This will provide the substance here that many seem to request. Then again, we can just leave the Ra'anana article as it is - with no criticism. Is that what Wikipedia is about? Davidstone 17:27, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is about providing relevant, verifiable information. Any criticism on any subject that cannot be independently verified using reliable sources has no place in Wikipedia. jaco ♫ plane  17:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Here is "relevant, verifiable information" from the Israel News Agency which has an article in Wiki. www.israelnewsagency.com/israelmondadcustodydiscrimination8870402.htmlNow I suppose you will attack the credentials of the INA! This not about "providing relevant, verifiable information" for a few here - it is more about control. That is a very sad comment on how a handful of Wiki "editors" view Wikipedia. It's ego over substance. I trust that other Wiki adm will get involved in a more professional and objective manner. Davidstone 18:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? Where have I attacked the credentials of the Israel News Agency? I think you will find I have never done so. I think it is quite an acceptable source. The only thing I have done here is point out what Wikipedia's policies are. Frankly, I don't care for the tone of your comments, which imply I am somehow attempting to "control" this discussion. I deny your accusation that I have not been professional and objective, and I challenge you to demonstrate any such behavior on my part. Regards, jaco ♫ plane  18:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Woggly your point is taken. I would prefer not to use what I call sock puppets. However as you say I know the person with who I'm dealing on a local level and it is based on that knowledge that I have chosen not to identify and thus expose myself to the vindictiveness I have seen practiced on others who have disagreed with israelbeach in the past. In any event the issue at hand is not a personal one between israelbeach and myself but a general question as to whether an entry about a city should be subjected to ANY individual's personal political ax. I DO believe as a resident of Raanana that it's my place and right to voice objection to having such a slight practiced on my city's homepage. The ONLY issues we should be discussing here is whether 1) with all the issues facing Raanana this specifically is so burning and so defining an issue that it should be the only thing mentioned on its wikipedia page. 2) If it is the only issue is it written from an objective point of view by any measure? Especially coming from a source who is a leading crusader for father's rights in Israel

the above issues are relevant to wikipedia policy regardless of who raises the question. If I were trying to push an agenda myself (why isn't there more on special ed/the city security tax etc.) then it would be an issue of conflicting agendas. All I'm asking for is to keep things balanced and fair which I believe israelbeach's paragraph in this instance violated in every way (all other conflicts with israelbeach and myself irrelevant to this issue)

As for the question raised here by jpgordon as to the validity of the israelnewsagency as a source I would note that while israelbeach's resume notes quite clearly that he is himself the editor of said newsagency he conveniently totally fails totally to mention here that he IS its editor. As its editor, pointing to it as a reliable source for what is or isn't newsworthy in order to support his own claim borders on the absurd. It shows nothing other than that as its editor HE thought it was newsworthy - not that anyone in Raanana agrees with him or even cares about father's rights. Even davidstone's backup comments in support of the israelnewsagency (as if the existence of an entry for the agency makes it any more credible a source for its editor to use as backup material to support his claims) doesn't prove anything other than that david and israelbeach are 2 people who read israelnewsagency and are using it as "proof" of valid source material in this argument.

Regarding nancetlv's comments about the article being too "pristine" otherwise then fine - include ALL the issues plaguing Raanana as a fair impartial editor and give ALL sides of the argument. As it stood with israelbeach's addition all it was was an advertisement for a marginal father's rights group with the city's point of view omitted and apparently no other isue on Raananites minds than father's rights. This is true even if israelbeach does as davidstone prophesizes and uploads kol raanan (and I must say I'll be impressed if david is that good at reading israelbeach's mind - a talent which would ALMOST lead one to wonder if they weren't the same person!) a paper which it must be noted relies on being about 2/3 advertisements and has been known to offer articles in exchange for advertising thus calling its neutrality into question (at least for me). A ten page article in kol raananan (just one of the local papers incidentally) would still not make the disputed paragraph any more balanced or prove that its the ONLY issue belonging on the Raanana page. I hope my signature gets added properly this time :- ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kfceater (talk • contribs) 18:19, April 22, 2006


 * Again, a hit and run without a signature. Please ID yourself and please stop the personal attacks. Thank you. Davidstone 18:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * David, thank you for your kind support. Jacoplane is correct in his desire to have "relevant, verifiable information" in all of Wiki's articles. Jacoplane, I work no different when editing a story on the Israel News Agency or on any other media. Please find a new link in the article www.israelnewsagency.com/genderbiasdiscriminationfatherschildrenraananaisrael.html directed towards another Israeli media news outlet, one for which I do not edit or report for. Lastly, I am commenting on only one issue confronting the City of Ra'anana - others can speak out on a wide variety which remains out there. I must point out again that the present mayor of Ra'anana and the new director of Ra'anana's Child Welfare department have promised to take action on this issue. Let's pray for our children's sake, that these are not empty words. Lila Tov or good night from Ra'anana, Israel. IsraelBeach 21:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Moved from article page

And so once again you have put up the piece you were asked to remove. This time with sources. fair enough if the sources were unbiased. However they are

1)A Jerusalem Post story (refer to Israelbeach's resume for history of working at that newspaper) with a fellow named George who Israelbeach already admits is an alias about himself. 2) a story from a local hebrew paper I've already discussed with a lead quote in English from israelbeach himself and a headline summary reading "a number of fathers demonstrated" - not tens, not hundreds but "a number." Even if it was more than the 3-5 someone told me they saw at that demonstration (and I'll grant that I wasn't there myself so maybe there were more) even the hebrew story doesn't suggest that this is a major issue for all Raanana (the demonstration actually took place in a court outside of Raanana which is where such things are ruled on and which is why it's not specifically raanana relevant) much less that it's the only issue of any importance either for Raanana of a month and a half ago when it was published or Raanana of today.

Once again israelbeach offers his own story as "proof" that this is a burning issue in Raanana to the omission of all others. We are to believe that a person visiting wikipedia is there looking for the town's history and an ad for father's rights and that's all that matters for a balanced non-biased point of view of the issue and representation of the town's concerns. And these quoted articles are supposed to demonstrate that israelbeach is giving a "balanced view" which is why it's ok for him to continually repost the irrelevant paragraph whatever any moderator might think. Fine I'm not going to take it down israelbeach - that's for the moderators to decide - if you want to defy them to their faces that's your call. But why do this nonsense at Raanana's expense?

Noone is denying that fathers should get to spend time with their kids. And I'm sure that under "child custody - Israel," "courts" and other such entries israelbeach can contribute tens of fascinating pages on this issue. But Raanana's city entry is not the place for it. Everyone else here has agreed with that except for David, the one who miraculously leapt to the conclusion that you must be planning to use a particular article published in the local weekly a month and a half ago. Truly amazing for him to correctly "guess" israelbeach was going to do that... Kfceater 22:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Who are you to decide: "Raanana's city entry is not the place for it." You just took down two independent news sources. That constitutes vandalism to an article according to Wiki policy. Nancetlv 22:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * er .. no. The section I took out from the article and pasted above is clearly a personal statement / comment by the user concerned and, indeed, is signed as such, so should be here on the talk page. So far as the section (re-)introduced by yourself you are adding information which - setting aside the validity and verifiability questions already raised by others - is actually not directly related to the geographical/historical status of the town concerned, but is actually about a different subject alltogether which *happens* to be happening in that location (alledgedly). As such is should be written into an appropriate article (existing or new) and properly wikilinked. --Vamp:Willow 23:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The section you deleted had a news source scanned onto it. That news source is in Hebrew. Do not judge the link by a personal statement and the translation placed above it - judge the link / news source by the news copy which was scanned (images)and placed below it! Thank you. Nancetlv 23:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't make my decision based on the references thereof, but of the nature of the content and the article it had been inserted in to. The fact that something was in Hebrew was not relevant to the information added. It may well be that the content you - and a number of others who may be connected to you - is important and encyclopaedic, but it isn't right for that page (imho, but there you go). --Vamp:Willow 23:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I thank Wiki for granting my request to protect this article. Let's talk objective fact. Ra'anana, as any other city has its share of problems. Gender bias discrimination, which has been documented by two independent news sources and a respected family psychologist Sara Silber in Ra'anana, is one of them. If we can discuss environmental, crime and unemployment issues in Wiki when it pertains to New York City then why not discuss the problems which confront Ra'anana? As the article stands now it is nothing less than a "pristine" advertisement for a Utopian city.  That is not reality. We need to address gender bias discrimination in Ra'anana and all other issues which this city suffers from. And we have many other issues such as water quality, earthquake infrastructure protection, cellular radiation coming from antennas, and zoning laws - protecting our environment from tall cement structures from overshadowing us. Or we can simply stick our heads in the sand. I thank Israelbeach and others here for not accepting a "whitewash" of the problems for which the residents of Ra'anana suffer from. If we ignore these problems, then we have no right to complain in the future. Ra'anana is only a beautiful city, an example to other towns in Israel due to the fact they we and those before us addressed the many challenges which were and are still before us.Nancetlv 23:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Nance, thank you for protecting this article. It gave many of us a chance to get some sleep ;> Nothing can create awareness better than illustrating that Ra'anana has a problem when the world public comes to it's page here and sees that the page is locked by Wiki because of a "dispute." This is very bad for Ra'anana as it shows that they have something to hide. As a public relations professional who loves Ra'anana I would suggest that Ra'anana admits that they have a problem and are looking into it. Which is actually the truth. To move on. All that some of the adm requested here for and rightfully so were "relevant, verifiable information" which was placed in the article. Not one, but three independent news stories regarding gender bias discrimination being practiced by Ra'anana's child welfare department were posted and then deleted.www.israelnewsagency.com/genderbiasdiscriminationfatherschildrenraananaisrael.html Now what if these were stories about water quality or corruption or environmental concerns? Would they have been posted? Yes, as these issues are posted with many cities which are included in Wiki. <I>So why is Ra'anana different? </i>Why do we have people here more concerned with censorship than solving the many problems we that we face. Lastly, I will address only one issue in Ra'anana - gender bias discrimination - others can and will contribute other issues here which are relevant. Ra'anana represents what is best about Israel, <B>censoring news stories</b> about Ra'anana is not one of them. The public has a right to know! IsraelBeach 08:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Just performed a search for "wikipedia gender bias city" to compare what other cities listed in Wikipedia suffer from. The City of Ra'anana now comes up # 1 under gender bias discrimination in child custody cases. Is this what we want the world to see? Some of you can try to censor news stories about gender bias discrimination in child custody cases in Ra'anana, but it will be for all to view when performing a simple search on Google! Some of you may have forgotton that Google is just a little bit bigger than Wiki ;> So I ask of you all, if gender bias discrimination is not allowed as a relevant topic for Ra'anana, what is? Who decides which problems are to be viewed on Wiki regarding the City of Ra'anana? I and many other dads in Ra'anana promise that this issue of gender bias discrimination in child custody cases will not be swept under the rug. No one has the right to take away our children solely based on the premise that we are men. IsraelBeach 09:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, you've now made it clear that you intend to use Wikipedia as a soapbox. This is not acceptable, and as such your attempt to use the Ra'anana article as a soapbox will now be considered vandalism. Please be aware that a request for comment has been filed regarding your behaviour; it would be a good idea for you to respond to the charges there. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 15:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * No Israelbeach has no intention of using Wiki as a "soapbox" as he has clearly stated. But again, Jpgordon is making a personal attack another Wiki editor here rather than attacking the problem! My solution: major cities have several sub-sections which include transportation, history, economy, education and politics. Place the issue of gender bias discrimination and the three news links it contains into this category. Bluegrasstom 16:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

RFC Woggly
I have opened a Request for Comment request for comment on User:Woggly due to harassment which is clearly evidenced by her in a harassment campaign that she has organized on her talk page User:Woggly<BR> On this page one can witness how accusations of "being dangerous" to other Wiki editors and using sockpuppets were never confirmed before she accused me of these actions and others. Woogly, I cordially invite you to have coffee with me at the Gam Cafe in Ra'anana and discuss offline what issues you have with me and Wikipedia. Communication is the key to understanding and respect. Best wishes. IsraelBeach 02:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I respectfully decline. To be quite honest, I am afraid of what threatening behavior you may be capable of in person. I'd rather communicate with you only on the record and in public view. If you feel we can reach an understanding, you are welcome to continue this discussion on my talk page or on yours. By the way, you may have written an RfC, but you have not yet filed it. I would advise you not to file it, as it is clearly an unjustified RfC, intended solely to harrass and intimidate me. --Woggly 07:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You again use language which continues to disturb and intimidate. You openly accuse me of "threatening behavior" which is libelous and saturated with slander. If I had one degree of "threatening behavior" I would not have unsupervised visits with my young children nor would I serve a humanitarian officier (res.) in the IDF www.israelnewsagency.com/israelidfhumanitarian10048.html. Your apparent paranoia is evident in the RfC for which is now filed with Wikipedia. Your behavior, as illustrated and documented in my RfC is not becoming of a Wikipedia editor, let alone a Wikipedia administrator. As of today this will be for the Wikipedia community to decide. I wish you luck. IsraelBeach 08:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust Day
It is Holocaust Day in Israel today when we remember those we have lost in Europe, we should also remember the thousands of father's who have lost their children to gender bias discrimination in Ra'anana and other cities and towns around the globe. Is the suffering the same? Read here:www.israelnewsagency.com/genderbiasdiscriminationfatherschildrenraananaisrael.html Bonnieisrael 17:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Whilst acknowledging the very real suffering felt by those parents who are separated from their children through divorce, I feel that I really must object to comparing it with the Holocaust. To do so diminishes the Holocaust, and plays into the hands of those who would deny it altogether. And to add a point of historical correctness, the Holocaust didn't only take place in Europe. Many North African Jews were also killed by the Germans. See here for more details. Cymruisrael 09:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Palestinians talk about their so-called "holocaust" as others loosely use this word as a noun to describe suffering. Although many fathers have lost their children to narcisstic moms, nothing compares to the shootings, hangings and gassings performed in Europe, North Africa and here in the Middle-East for which over 12 million Jews, Roma (Gypsies), handicapped, Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others), Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals were murdered. "Holocaust" is a word of Greek origin meaning "sacrifice by fire." <I>There is only one meaning for the word Holocaust </i>and you can find it here: www.yadvashem.org Yad Vashem. IsraelBeach 13:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Resolving the issue - Avoiding personal attacks / Edit wars - Organizing the article
I believe that Bluegrasstom had an excellent idea in how to resolve this issue. Every city and town has its problems. The Los Angeles entry into Wiki states: "The city government has been perceived as inefficient and ineffective by residents of some areas" - so it not uncommon to have descriptions of cities and towns discussing the political challenges they face. Most cities and towns are very well organized into sections such as: - Contents

* 1 History * 2 Geography and climate o 2.1 Geography + 2.1.1 Geology o 2.2 Climate + 2.2.1 Environmental Issues * 3 Government o 3.1 Legal system * 4 Economy * 5 Demographics o 5.1 Census 2000 o 5.2 National origins o 5.3 Crime * People and culture o 6.1 Religion * 7 Arts and entertainment * 8 Districts and communities * 9 Politics * 11 Transportation * 12 Education o 12.1 Colleges and universities o 12.2 Schools and libraries * 13 Professional sports * 14 Media * 15 Telephone area codes * 16 Sister cities * 17 Trivia * 18 References * 19 External links

What is needed here is organization and compromise, not personal attacks and RfC's. We may have different issues, but we share a common goal: to see Ra'anana develop in a prosperous and healthy manner. It's our city, if we don't address the many problems, who will? Best wishes, IsraelBeach 05:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh please - now the holocaust?! The suffering's not the same because no one's suffering is the same as anyone else's - it's subjective. The only reason why anyone would ask such a question is in order to put holocaust and father's rights together to 1) subliminally connect the 2 in a person's mind and/or 2) make it relevant to a discussion on father's rights - a discussion which is out of place on Raanana's page to begin with. As far as objectivity goes I think that Bonnie has shown us (and how unusual to see a woman who's such a crusader for father's rights) that there's no level to which the father's rights people on here won't stoop to in order to push their agenda wherever and whenever they can regardless of relevance or even appropriateness. We've seen the article you refer to - israelbeach already posted it previously. So what? What does that have to do with the holocaust. If israelbeach's lovely little child has been sent off to a laborcamp or heaven forfend been gassed to death or abused in cruel scientific experiments then I must admit I hadn't heard about it and I extend my heartfelt sympathies to him. But if the comparison is supposed to be "families were separated during the holocaust and didn't see each other again for years" whereas in Raanana "fathers were separated for their children and were allowed regular visits" (which israelbeach has noted above are in his case even unsupervised). This is getting disgraceful. What next? a comment on the holocaust page of the wikipedia about father's rights? To what level can one sink? And of course it's already been resolved that the whole father's rights issue has no place on Raanana's page so its time to find someplace else to do your advertising. With all heartfelt sympathies for the father's pain (and maybe because of it) it's time to stop making a mockery of the issue through absurdity.

As for israelbeach's idea of separating things into sections on city pages - fine. You want to turn Raanana into LA go for it. But then for each issue write up a balanced report. Not what you had so far which was 1) a single issue of minor consequence relative to the general public of raanana's problems (what percentage of the city is made up of divorced fathers with rights issues - is it even 0.1 percent?! 2) a report on that issue told from one point of view slanted against the city and without even making an effort at being in any way objective or unbiased. Kfceater 10:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Pleased to see less personal attacks here. But I am warning Kfceater one last time not to use personal information in her posts, as that is harassment and I will without a wink create a RfC as <I>it directly affects my children</i>. <BR>FYI many, many women belong to the Father's / Children's Rights movement www.women4fatherhood.org Women 4 Fatherhood and encourage their husbands and ex-husbands to spend quality parenting time with their children in contrast to a very few narcisstic mom's who try to seperate father from child. But this is not a forum solely for addressing gender bias discrimination in the City of Ra'anana. And again, I must commend the present mayor and the new head of Ra'anana's Child Welfare department for taking time to examine these issues. We are here to discuss all that is Ra'anana. And when I have the time, I will take your suggestion of creating a template that addresses all topics. Kfceater beyond your consistent personal attacks, what are you contributing to the City of Ra'anana? IsraelBeach 12:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

israelbeach, please cut the empty threats - they didn't work on me in the past, didn't work on woggly here and won't work in the future. Yours accusation of harassment and bringing in of personal informatiuon about your children is nonsense. YOU'RE the one who constantly drags your poor children into this conversation. The only reason a reference to a child of yours entered the conversation is because YOU'VE set yourself up in this conversation as the prototypical father. As such I used your child (could have been male could have been female) as a prototypical child in answering your alterego Bonnie's holocaust post (the one in which she cheapened the holocaust and made the father's rights crusade look absurd). The fact that I chose to use a female pronoun rather than a male means nothing. After all you choose to refer to me as "she" in your post here and in fact have no idea if I'm a she or a he. I assure you I have nothing against your children - I think there are few people on here who feel as sympathetic towards your children and what they must go through as much as I do - though perhaps not for the same reason you sympathize with them...That said, if any of your children felt insulted here for some reason you may assure them that no offense was meant to them and that I offer them my sincerest apologies. As for what I do for the city, the answer is I do a great deal as evidenced by the dozens of emails and face to face displays of appreciation I receive on a regular basis for my service to Raanana. The fact that I refuse to expose myself to the vindictive little attacks I have seen you practice on those who have dared to take issue with you doesn't mean that I don't help Raanana's citizenry, Anglo and Israeli on a regular basis. What do YOU do for Raanana other than rail against its single mothers and cause bad feeling among the anglo community with the "print anything you like however damning or inflamatory to another" attitude of your city list? The fact that like woggly I have the sense not to play your second grade games of "what are you - chicken?" and reveal my identity to "prove" I'm not afraid of you has nothing to do with my contribution to this fine city  But your questioning my identity and contributions to Raanana, as with your "wounded pride" regarding supposed "attacks" on your family are an irrelevant smokescreen in this discussion anyhow which is a question about whether a city wikipedia place is or isn't the place for a minor barely municipally related issue presented in a one-sided manner and backed up with articles published by or written about yourself. That's the ONLY question anyone here has to consider - no matter how many times you try and cloud the issue with irrelevancies. I could be Yigal Amir and it still wouldn't make the father's rights diatribe you keep trying to keep up on the city page under the guise of a "balanced report" any more relevant to this wikipedia page. Anyone looking at this page (well other than your 3-4 alter egos as I'll diplomatically refer to them since woggly's already called them what they are) will see that immediately. Kfceater 17:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That's quite enough of that. I strongly suggest you delete that last diatribe; it's inappropriate, borders on (if not crosses the line of) personal attack, and isn't helpful for the development of this encyclopedia, which is the only thing that matters around here. Anyone wishing to act out their personal psychodramas on Wikipedia really should find another venue. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 17:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * jpgordon Thank you for addressing Kfceater. His and Woggly's personal attacks do nothing to resolve the issues here, only serve to alienate those who wish to move forward. Four notes:


 * I am noones alterego and it has been suggested that we meet over coffee. This warm move to resolve issues was turned down.
 * Never involve personal information or innocent children in these discussions - according to Wiki policy that is harassment.
 * Israelbeach created and co-moderates NewRaanana, a community list of over 1,400 members. His unselfish contributions to Ra'anana are more than notable.
 * The fact that you hide your identity in contrast to Israelbeach weakens your arguements as they are then void of credibility and accountability. I agree, "Anyone wishing to act out their personal psychodramas on Wikipedia really should find another venue." Let's move forward and take up the positive, creative ideas put forth by Bluegrasstom Bonnieisrael 21:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I meant that for everyone. Personal psychodramas include attempts to liken family court disputes to genocide. Keep the personal stuff off of here. Completely. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 22:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I more than totally agree with User:Jpgordon statement that "Personal psychodramas include attempts to liken family court disputes to genocide." Even though the loss of a child is severely traumatic www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,44183,00.html resulting in many suicides, it is still not genocide. IsraelBeach 00:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

jpgordon - I'm more than happy to keep personal issues off here. As I already explained my using of israelbeach as an example in the reply to "Bonnie" was as a typical "everyfather fighting for father's rights" which israelbeach has been trying to set himself up as during the whole discussion. It certainly was NOT aimed at israelbeach personally or any member of his family who were uninvolved in that discussion. I've already apologized above for any misunderstanding that might have arisen there.

You're right that there are many entries in wikipedia where people's personal court battles and family traumas ARE relevant. Perhaps as a single person narrative they're even relevant even if the point of view presented is totally unbalanced. However a city page is certainly NOT the place to be dealing with a single Raananite's issues or even that of a tiny percentage of said population - especially when all other city issues are excluded and nothing else but history appears on that page. israelbeach STILL has yet to prove that the issue he raised was relevant to the page - especially as it stands as solely a history page - or that his report on it was anything short of grossly unbalanced and slanted against the municipality and not even making a halfhearted ATTEMPT of keeping to wikipedia's goal of balanced and objective reporting.

As for israelbeach's feigned innocence above that "We are here to discuss all that is Ra'anana" I would submit to you that while that is true of the DISCUSSION page where different people submit different views it is certainly NOT true of the DEFINITION page (where israelbeach originally tried to forcibly keep on his unbalanced attack on the city) where an objective point of view is supposed to be maintained. If israelbeach wanted to JUST keep the father's rights issue on the discussion page, as he seems to be suggesting now I'd never have said anything in the first place. MY objection is that he tried to forcibly pass it off on the city's definition page replacing his attack on the page anytime anyone tried to take off his biased paragraph and even threatening woggly when she made a decision to remove it. So if israelbeach just wanted to discuss different viewpoints why did he forcibly maintain his paragraph on the definition page (as evidenced by this page's history) instead of bringing it up as a discussion topic? Kfceater 13:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Solution to the above has been mentioned and endoresed by myself. I agreed to create a template for the City of Ra'anana on Wiki which would include all details of the city in a more balanced manner. Let's do it together! Shabbat shalom, IsraelBeach 22:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally Bonnie says above "I am noones alterego and it has been suggested that we meet over coffee. This warm move to resolve issues was turned down." In fact if one checks the history of the conversation the only place where meeting over coffe was mentioned was above where israelbeach says

"On this page one can witness how accusations of "being dangerous" to other Wiki editors and using sockpuppets were never confirmed before she accused me of these actions and others. Woogly, I cordially invite you to have coffee with me at the Gam Cafe in Ra'anana and discuss offline what issues you have with me and Wikipedia. Communication is the key to understanding and respect. Best wishes. IsraelBeach 02:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)"

I don't see anything here about bonnie meeting for coffee with anyone - the invitation is issued by israelbeach in the singular. One might almost wonder if 1) bonnie is trying to make "her"self look good by inventing a supposed attempt to resolve things peacefully over coffee despite never extending an invitation in this discussion or 2) "Bonnie" (aka israelbeach) is telling the truth and simply forgot that the earlier invitation was extended under the name of Bonnie. Now I know which one i believe but I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions. I will remind you however that as a result of woggly's accusation that Bonnie was a sock puppet woggly was attacked with a (IMHO) bogus RFC endorsed by israelbeach and bonnie (if "and" is the appropriate term). And sorry israelbeach/bonnie - I'm not accepting you coffee invitation under any name with "either" of you as I'm not interested in exposing my identity to you. You can say it's fear and underhandedness and I'll say it's caution. I think many would agree that the above noted example of one identity taking credit for what was extended under a different ID is valid enough reason to stay clear of anyone making a claim under either ID. By the way the signature doesn't seem to be working here so let me just note that it's kfceater writing shortly after my last posting lest I get accused of neglecting to sign 84.94.110.99 14:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As you don't ID yourself, I will not respond to a "ghost. To an Israeli in Jerusalem hiding behind an IP address located in Amsterdam.

I know your identity, but according to Wiki policy I will not reveal your personal details. You request the truth from others yet you attempt to hide your own details! IsraelBeach 22:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

If you don't respond it's because you can't respond because you've been caught redhanded using a doiuble identity. Furthermore anyone reading what I wrote will see that I noted that the signing function was giving me problems and so I was identifying myself within the body of my posting. Finally if you think I'm in Jerusalem (and that even after I've repeatedly noted that I'm a Raananite) then you clearly haven't a clue who I am (my sincere sympathies to whoever it is you've deluded yourself that it is) and this is just one more of your endless attempts to intimidate people such as the RFC you lodged against woggly.

However even if you did know who I was you're still smokescreening. My identity is irrelevant to the conversation. ALL that's relevant is whether or not you should be posting irrelevant biased information on the city page under the guise of "objective reporting." It's a question you've been asked often here but have yet to answer because you'd rather discuss father's rights and how everyone is out to get you and harass you rather than admit you were out of line posting such a grossly slanted article and forcibly encroaching it on the city definition page.

There's really no reason for you to respond to me or for me to censure you israelbeach. All I ask is that you either 1) leave the Raanana page as a page about Raanana's history and leave any mention of local city problems to the discussion area where it belongs. Then anyone interested in local divorced father's rights (which is not me) can argue here to their hearts content OR 2) mention father's rights on the main page provided you a) discuss it in an objective and unbiased point of view giving both the fathers' and courts rights as per wikipedia practice of keeping things balanced and b) discuss it as one of numerous subjects of city concern taht you review in like unbiased manner on the city page - cellphone antennas, city zoning etc. etc.

The ONLY problem I have with you (in wikipedia anyhow...) is when you present a single highly biased article on the city's definition page by itself to make it appear as if that was a major Raanana issue and your advertisement represents "facts" accepted by everyone and undisputed anywhere. As long as you choose one of the 2 very fair above options for presenting your fathers rights issues I have no problem with your posting it. The first option (that of keeping it on the discussion page only where it can be seen by visitors who want to discuss local issues yet not be on the main page as defining the city seems to me a very fair and sensible compromise which requires zero work on your part and doesn't require anyone to meet with you for coffee under any identity... Kfceater 18:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, excuse me one moment. You are confused about what article talk pages are for. You said, anyone interested in local divorced father's rights (which is not me) can argue here to their hearts content -- this is wrong. Talk pages are for discussing articles and how to improve them. They are not forums, chat boards, or anything of the sort; they are not for discussing Ra'anana's local issues, or your various personal agreements or disagreements. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 18:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * To end the accusations of "sockpuppets" or that Bonnie is me and vice-versa, you can write me at jlwiki @gmail.com where I will provide you with both BonnieIsrael's and my phone numbers. You can then ask us while on the phone the phone to post something. But I doubt you will do this for it will only illustrate that you are soley interested in continuing personal attacks, not improving content at Wiki. As for being objective and really trying to reduce if not eliminate personal attacks here, I thank jpgordon for doing an outstanding job. IsraelBeach 05:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

jpgordon I am happy to stand corrected on this matter. I was basing myself on israelbeach's earlier suggestion that the raanana definition page is a place that is for discussing "all that is Raanana" which noone disputed. While I would agree with you that even the discussion page shouldn't be the place for discussing political agendas and fathers rights I had assumed that since noone contradicted him there that that statement was acceptable to you all. In any event if the discussion place isn't the place for debating father's rights issues then the definition page CERTAINLY isn't the place and israelbeach's attempts to keep the issue on the definition page by force are out of place. as for israelbeach's offering of his phone number - no thanks. As far as I can see all these offers of meeting are mere maneuvers to find out who I am and I'm not walking into that trap for reasons already previously expressed based on my experience with israelbeach. In any event this is all a smokescreen with israelbeach trying to turn things into a personal issue. As jpgordon has pointed out this is NOT the place for people's personal attacks whether against individuals or the city but is solely about the city of raanana's wikipedia definition and making sure it follows the high standards guidelines set down by wikipedia for balanced and relevant analysis. Therefore just assume that I'm anyone from Ze'ev Bielski to Eli Pimstein writing this - it makes zero difference. All that matters is whether the points I'm making are valid according to wikipedia guidelines. israelbeach has been desperately trying time after time to steer the conversation away from this onto issues of personal attacks, harassment, and family issues despite its being the city page and what may go on it and how that must be presented being the ONLY relevant issues here. ALL I ask of jpgordon and others is to determine whether or not the paragraph israelbeach forced onto the definition page belongs there or not. If it doesn't then tell israelbeach so since he'll never accept it from me and has already put out an rfc against woggly for daring to argue with him. Kfceater 10:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It's over
Observation: It appears that not a single established editor has supported the Father's rights insertion, and that it is only enjoying support from new editors focusing primarily on this issue. The onus, on this front now, is being placed on the pro-Father's rights mention group of editors to establish the above. This talk page has been misused with much offtopic digressions, without responding to the question of notability of the organization in the context of city article conventions. Conditional unrpotection: I am unprotecting the page; any further insertion of the passage without adhering to the above terms will be viewed as disruptive, subject to blocks and reversions as vandalism. Any gross misuse of this talk page for discussions which go outside of its scope &mdash;as a medium to improve the article&mdash; will likewise be seen as disruptive. Thank you. El_C 00:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Unless the organization in question has accomplished something truly noteworthy relating to Ra'anana, it cannot be mentioned in this article. If it's an especially noteworthy Father's rights organization in Israel &mdash;in national terms&mdash; then and only then can it be mentioned in the Fathers' rights article, under an Israel section. But such a mention needs to involve a balanced overview of the issue in Israel.
 * 2) All further attempts to include the organization without establishing the above clearly, will be viewed as a form of advocacy.