Talk:Rab Butler

Title
On reflection would Rab Butler be the more natural place for this article?

And do we want a category/list page for Politicians in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland who served in all three of the "top jobs" roles (Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and Secretary of State for the Home Department) by whatever snappy title we can come up with? Timrollpickering 22:20, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Category:Generally top-notch chaps, perhaps. Was he known as "Rab Butler", or just "Rab"? If the latter, perhaps R. A. Butler would be better. Proteus (Talk) 15:44, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * It's often pronounced "Rab" not "R. A. B." (as opposed to, say, A.J.P. Taylor whose initials are always pronounced individually), so I'd leave out the periods. He was often called just "Rab", probably because he was the only Rab about - similarly Winston and Enoch were often referred to without surnames as it was pretty clear who was meant, but "Rab Butler" is probably the best that combines his surname with his best known name and was often used to describe him. Timrollpickering 19:24, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * It just strikes me as odd, that's all (because of the repeated "B", I suppose, making me analyse it as "Richard Austen Butler Butler). But then I suppose we have Jeb Bush, so why not? Proteus (Talk) 00:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The analogy to Jeb Bush seems appropriate. BTW, how many men have held all three positions? Besides Butler, I can only think of James Callaghan and John Simon. Men who have held two of the three include Jack Straw, John Major, Kenneth Clarke, Geoffrey Howe, Douglas Hurd, Roy Jenkins, John Anderson, Samuel Hoare, Winston Churchill, Arthur Henderson, Herbert Morrison, Reginald Maudling, Selwyn Lloyd, Reginald McKenna, Austen Chamberlain, Charles Thomson Ritchie, Herbert Henry Asquith, William Harcourt, Hugh Childers, Robert Lowe, George Lewis, Lord Palmerston, Lord John Russell, Lord Liverpool, George Canning, Lord Goderich (Ripon), Robert Peel, Stafford Northcote... john k 01:05, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Off the top of my head I can only think of those three, though if you throw in the ther big posts of Lord Chancellor and Prime Minister as well then the list of politicians who've held a lot of top jobs gets interesting.


 * Of the one's who've held two posts, you might want to add Harold Macmillan but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.


 * If no-one's any objections I'll move the page to Rab Butler in 24 hours. Timrollpickering 18:41, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

For two, you also get Lord Grenville and the Duke of Wellington (although that's only because he was caretaker "Secretary of State" in Nov-Dec 1834, meaning that he was technically Home Secretary as well as Foreign Secretary. Adding Lord Chancellors wouldn't make a big difference - most Lord Chancellors went on a different track, starting as Solicitor General, then to Attorney General and finally Lord Chancellor. Biggest exceptions I can think of in the 20th century are Lord Haldane, who had been Secretary of State for War; Lord Cave, who had been Home Secretary; the aforementioned Lord Simon; the two Lord Hailshams, who held various notable posts; and Lord Kilmuir, who had also been Home Secretary. In the nineteenth century, I have difficulty finding any who held other cabinet level posts, although men like Lord Eldon and Lord Brougham had enough influence with just being Lord Chancellor (in very different ways in the case of those two, obviously). john k 20:04, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I strongly dislike the term "Rab Butler" because of the tautology involved. It would be better to refer to him in the title as 'Richard Austen "Rab" Butler", and then to use '"Rab" Butler' or '"Rab"' for shorter designations. I'm minded to change it, unless there are contrary views expressed. Hyuey 12 February 2006 14.22 (UTC)


 * There already have been "contrary views expressed". Proteus (Talk) 15:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I rather agree with Hyuey, with a redirect from Rab Butler. And can't someone find a photo? Deipnosophista (talk) 10:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the article should be moved to "R. A. Butler". "Rab" feels too informal.--Johnbull (talk) 21:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wab?
What's the deal with "Wab or Hawold"? Is it vandalism or a trancription of a speech impediment? If the latter, a reference or elucidation would be good. 203.221.18.161 11:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Salisbury's speech impediment. Quite widely-quoted in accounts of the incident, though I can't trace where it started - presumably the memoirs of somebody who was in the Cabinet at the time.


 * Kilmuir's memoirsMissingMia (talk) 14:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

signature
How else would he have signed himself? W C Fields?

Speech anecdote deleted
I deleted the following:
 * He was an increasingly successful public speaker. At one dinner party in June 1957, he began a speech with the words: "An after-dinner speech should be like a lady's dress - long enough to cover the subject and short enough to be interesting.".

This is only notable if Butler is the one who came up with the joke. He's not; I just heard the line spoken in The Courtship of Andy Hardy (1942), and presumably it's older than that. YLee (talk) 19:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Picture
Picture is awful. Can we get a better one? Drutt (talk) 19:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Great Offices of State
Please see Talk:Great Offices of State for a query about how many politicians achieved the same as Butler. Timrollpickering (talk) 20:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Butler and Macmillan
The article states "In January 1957 Eden resigned as prime minister, and did not give advice to Queen Elizabeth II as to who should succeed him." This is incorrect, and has been rebutted in the past. Eden (by then Lord Avon) wrote the following on 27 November 1970 to Sir Michael Adeane to place a proper record in the Royal Archives.

"I notice that Mr Macmillan's memoirs recently serialised repeat the statement first made in Lord Kilmuir's memoirs, that the Queen did not ask my advice about my successor. Mr Macmillan adds that neither did I volunteer such advice. These statements are incorrect. Her Majesty followed the constitutional procedure and asked me my advice as to her choice of successor. As I consider that all communications between the Sovereign and her Prime Minister are confidential, I do not propose to state here what that advice was, except to say that the course subsequently followed was consistent with that advice."

This is in the Avon Papers, and has been widely quoted in historical works. See also Robert Blake on Eden in the 1986 Dictionary of National Biography: "It is untrue, although often alleged, that the Queen did not consult him about his successor."

I am therefore amending the article accordingly. Salim555 (talk) 22:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Photograph
That is just about the worst photograph I have ever seen in a biography article, and there's lots of terrible ones. Surely there are available public domain images of such a major British politician of the last century where you can actually make out the man's face? john k (talk) 16:54, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Happily, now replaced by a rather good image. Tim riley (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Overhaul and title
The article lacks citations at an alarming number of places. I have it on my to-do list and hope to get to it in the next few months. Meanwhile, may I resume the conversation, above, about the title of the page? When the exchanges petered out in 2009 they seemed to be heading towards renaming the page "R A Butler" rather than "Rab Butler", and I'd like to add my voice in favour of that. Glad to know if other editors have views. Tim riley (talk) 21:41, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * most of the "uncited" stuff could be cited easily enough from some pretty obvious sources - Butler's own memoirs ("The Art of the Possible"), the 1980s Anthony Howard biog etc.MissingMia (talk) 14:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Conflicts with Great Offices of State
Great Offices of State says the following share Butler's position of holding only three of four of the Great Offices of State if the four are presumed to be PM, Home Sec, Chancellor, and Foreign Sec.


 * Asquith, Churchill – Chancellor, PM, Home Sec
 * Macmillan, Major – Chancellor, PM, Foreign Sec
 * Butler, Simon – Chancellor, Home Sec, Foreign Sec
 * Wellesley – PM, Home Sec, Foreign Sec (simultaneously)

Callaghan, meanwhile, is alone in holding all four, and so shouldn't be in the article at all in the context of being one of

"only four British politicians (the others being John Simon, 1st Viscount Simon, John Major, and James Callaghan), to have served in three of the four Great Offices of State"

I think this needs some clarification and until this is done, I'm removing the section that I've recently been editing. Maragil (talk) 19:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)


 * edit - instead I'm going to roll it back to just Simon & Butler by KasparBot. Maragil (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

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Deputy Prime Minister
I've already spoken on this topic on Eden's page, but did Butler ever hold the official office of Deputy Prime Minister? Rodney Brazier, in his new book 'Choosing a Prime Minister: The Transfer of Power in Britain' on pages 75 and 77, states that while Butler was the first First Secretary of State, he was never Deputy Prime Minister.

Hansard seems rather inconclusive and the BBC history website doesn't include any mention of the office either. However, both Britannica and Spartacus Educational state that he was Deputy Prime Minister.

I'm afraid that I don't think that I have access to many of the secondary sources used on this page, but does anybody have any thoughts or other sources on this? I think it should be bore in mind that there is a difference between being the Deputy (with a capital "D") and simply deputising for. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 13:01, 13 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Sources are mixed on this and Wikipedia gets into a mess when different sources say different things and editors amend on the basis of the latest thing they've read. It doesn't help that Deputy Prime Minister was historically not a formal office in its own right and so like the Prime Minister in earlier periods it wasn't always the title that appeared in formal lists. (And capitalisation is little use these days because of the annoying habit of some to decapitalise everything and remove the important distinction between actual roles and generic descriptions.) In addition the "Deputy Prime Minister" has never been an official heir apparent who automatically becomes Prime Minister when the incumbent goes (unlike a US Vice President) which is why the role is often dismissed or even actively opposed and new DPMs sometimes get their ego publicly deflated on this precise point.
 * Some of Macmillan's comments in the Commons explain the confusion:
 * "My right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State will act as Deputy Prime Minister... This is not an appointment submitted to the Sovereign but is a statement of the organisation of Government. It follows a very high precedent, for it was exactly the arrangement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) when Sir Anthony Eden was appointed Deputy Prime Minister."
 * "In several Administrations over the last 20 years it has been the practice of the Prime Minister to appoint a senior member of the Government to act as Deputy Prime Minister. This helps in the efficient dispatch of public business. But it is not an appointment submitted to the Sovereign and in my view it should not be so." (Note also the discussion about when the Prime Minister was actually recognised as a role.)
 * The confusion seems to be that the Deputy Prime Minister was a role appointed by the Prime Minister and acknowledged as such rather than a formal appointment upon the recommendation of the Prime Minister to the Queen, possibly precisely because of the tradition that there is no official heir apparent and the Sovereign notionally retains their freedom of choice when appointing a new PM. So some sources will zoom on official lists that say that Butler was appointed (and receiving a salary) as First Secretary of State whilst others will zoom in on government and parliamentary statements that Butler was Deputy Prime Minister. I've not read Brazier's book but given the title is he focused on the actual succession? That is precisely the area where DPMs are most actively denied and opposed rather than the month to month business of who fills in for the PM when they're unavailable. Timrollpickering (talk) 15:28, 13 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. The fact that "Deputy Prime Minister" has been used in both a formal (like for Clegg) and an informal (like for Butler, perhaps similar to the role now sometimes refered to as "senior minister on duty") way clears up a lot of the confusion. As an aside, do you think it's worth putting something more explictly about that in the article about the office of Deputy Prime Minister? On the downside, I suppose it could lead to a whole different type of article on who the Prime Minister's number two is, looking at nuclear deputies, who deputises at PMQs and the cabinet ranking, for example. As for the book, in the part that I referred to, Brazier was simply explaining the offices, as far as I am aware.


 * I'm afraid that I'm of the school of thought that the official lists, rather than informal descriptions, should be used on Wikipedia where offices are concerned (while, of course, not failing to mention when deputisations have taken place without the use of a office), so Butler should not be refered to as Deputy Prime Minister in his infobox, for instance. Do you or does anybody else have any thoughts about this? FollowTheTortoise (talk) 21:07, 13 October 2020 (UTC)


 * There's a big difference between the informal descriptions applied to the ministers who stood in for the PM in earlier times (and sometimes later) and an actual title used in government and parliament. That the appointment wasn't submitted to the Sovereign is an interesting detail but to claim that Butler wasn't Deputy Prime Minister because of this is like claiming there was no Prime Minister before at least 1878 because of the formal appointments (one of the Hansard links goes into this very detail). Timrollpickering (talk) 22:09, 13 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Butler was certainly given the title "Deputy Prime Minister" in 1962 (even if it was largely an honorific as Macmillan was promoting younger men like Hailsham, Maudling and Heath from amongst whom he hoped to choose his successor). My understanding is that an Order in Council is required to create a new ministerial office (eg. Minister of Munitions in WW1). The existence of the Cabinet, on the other hand, is almost pure convention (in the hardest sense of the word), governed by rules which are quite strict and which are kept codified by the Cabinet Secretary ("Questions of Procedure For Ministers" or whatever the equivalent is nowadays) but which are not enforceable in law. The job titles "Prime Minister" (usually held by the First Lord of the Treasury, unless the PM is Lord Salisbury) and "Deputy Prime Minister" would come under the latter heading, surely.


 * As for the powers of the DPM (if there is one), it varies a lot with individuals. In the case of Geoffrey Howe, the press were briefed by Bernard Ingham in July 1989 that it was just an empty title. Hezza, on the other hand, insisted in 1995 on having a massive office, a clearly defined role, a swipecard so he could enter No 10 whenever he liked, and the right to attend any committee he chose.Paulturtle (talk) 00:44, 14 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Butler was already, as Home Secretary until 1962, largely running the government's domestic agenda, apart from Economic Policy in which Macmillan took a strong interest. I don't think that aspect of his work changed very much.Paulturtle (talk) 00:50, 14 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Although I do think that I still support the idea of only calling those who were officially appointed "Deputy Prime Minister" by the monarch "Deputy Prime Minister" in infoboxes etc. and refering to others as simply deputising instead, this does seem difficult to do in practice because of contradicting sources and you do raise a good point vis-à-vis the Prime Minister (though sources do generally seem united on this subject) and so I'm going to defer any decision of what to do on Wikipedia to someone else! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 15:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I've now added a note to this article (and a similar one to Anthony Eden's article) to explain that while it's undoubtable that Butler deputised, sources are less clear as to whether he was ever officially appointed Deputy Prime Minister like, say, Nick Clegg was. I doubt whether a fully satisfactory answer can ever be found! Thanks for your help! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 19:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

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