Talk:Race (human categorization)/Archive 30

Respecting what the sources say and respecting core Wikipedia principles
I'll respond here to a question that came to me from the keyboard of Slrubenstein. I was asked why I thought a replacement of article text first done by Wapaponda, then undone by an I.P. editor, and then redone by me was appropriate. Simply put, as I wrote in my diff, the cited source does not support the replaced Wikipedia article text that cites it. The topic sentence of the reverted paragraph, "Since the turn of the millennium, the use of racial categories as a tool for evaluating genetically conditioned health risks and treatment choices has seen a marked increase" misstates what the cited source says, and I think misstates what any of the current literature on the subject says. The actual topic sentences in the topic paragraph of the cited reference are "Despite the successes of this ongoing revolution [in 'evidence based medicine'], many holdovers from the nineteenth-century world are still very much a part of contemporary medical thinking, and perhaps none has proven more difficult to exorcise than the tenacious habits of racialized medicine. Although race has been thoroughly discredited as a meaningful biologic subdivision of humanity (Collins 2004; Torres and Kittles 2007), it is still a recurring and common quantity in medical training and practice." The authors go on to give the example (page 192) of sickle-cell anemia screening being universal in the United Statesnot just applied to one "race" groupfor sound statistical reasons that they discuss in the chapter. The previous draft completely misrepresented its sources, and is thus a classic example of a fudge, which should always be deleted on sight from Wikipedia. In light of a previous statement by an administrator, this seems to be enough to say about this issue. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 00:12, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know who wrote what when. I do know that both the section as currently worded and other proposals for the section posed here give a somewhat different picture than the sources used are doing.  Risch for example is an argument for self-reported race categorization over Wilson's argument for genetic based categorization instead.  I think some of the "What's the Use of Race" cites took too much liberty, maybe based on a mistaken interpretation of NPOV.  The entire thrust of the chapters cited was brushed aside.  In some places claims didn't match the cites at all, maybe because they've shifted out of place-I don't know. And again--why so much about the genetic component over and above anything else?  There are significant environmental and sociologically based links between race and health-and given the space constraints, narrowing the focus to autosomal diseases like Tay-Sachs is missing the forest for the trees again.Professor marginalia (talk) 00:54, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I am sure we all agree mainstream sources must be represented accurately and in context. I am not criticizin Waponda for deleting content, or WeijiBaikeBianji for restoring the shorter version.  And I appreciate the explanations.  My question to both of them (and Prof. M.) is: can any of the material that was removed from Maunus's version be rewritten in a way that makes it acceptable for inclusion? If the answer is no, well, that's no.  But if you can rework even some of the removed material so it can be put back in, that would be great collaborative editing. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 10:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The edit was riddled with problems, including inaccurately made claims, inaccurately sourcing them, synth, not to mention being a somewhat confused recitation of the issues as raised by the sources used. (I gather from the discussion above that Maunus didn't write much of it.)  Here the section focused almost exclusively on whether or not racialized categories were suitable surrogates for genetically based health issues--and that's just one small piece of both the debate and how such categories are actually used in medicine.  Take the statement, "There is a general consensus in medicine that the ability to treat diseases improves with greater specificity of genetic analysis, and that the use of racial groups as a predictor of genetic buildup is a crude and imperfect way to identify genetic clusters that correlate with disease risk".  The first clause is overstating the role "genetic analysis" actually plays in our understanding of disease or drug response.  Medicine has long been aware that some health issues will correlate more in some populations than others, including racial groups--and currently relatively few of them have any identifiable genetic component. Fewer yet will see improved outcomes through genetic analysis.  And take the passage,
 * "Since race can be seen as an imperfect surrogate for ancestral geographic region, it is in turn a surrogate for variation across one's genome. There is therefore a degree of correlation between genome-wide variation and variation at specific loci associated with disease. The ways in which these variants interact with environmental factors can subsequently give an approximation of propensity for disease or for preferred treatment response, although the approximation is less than perfect."
 * I don't know what this means-and I don't recognize it in the source cited. One doesn't have any "variation" across their genome.  Populations have variation, not individuals.  But it's individuals, not populations, that get sick.  Variation isn't the cause of disease.  Furthermore, the source suggests that both the proponents and critics say racial categories are often used because  genetic factors, environmental factors, and the relationship between the two--the "root causes of disease"--are not so well understood.  The section overall conflates correlation and causation too much, maybe, giving the impression that the type of causation involved in the race and sickle-cell correlation is implicit anytime there is a racial correlation.
 * Anyway, I think we keep getting sucked in to zooming on just the "genetics" every time we discuss "race" (even when sources cited like Whitmarsh, Risch, and Collins have pointedly *not* done so), and there is a Race and genetics article to delve into that topic specifically. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

This article is using non-neutral sources
The section "Concepts and realities of race" is especially bad. It relies heavily on Audrey Smedley's THE HISTORY OF THE IDEA OF RACE… AND WHY IT MATTERS, which seems to mostly concern the history of black slavery. This could be OK, except that it's used for scientific claims. The piece is clearly non-neutral, in the introduction she begins "When five white policemen shot a young unarmed African immigrant 41 times in the doorway of his New York apartment, this can’t be explained by examining their genes or biology." This is not a neutral scientific attitude. I find it hard to imagine that the science regarding the biology of race will be represented neutrally from this source. I recommend finding something from a biologist rather than a political POV pusher. 80.254.146.52 (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:NPOV. Wikipedia does not consider whether a source is neutral or not, because what one editor considers neutral and objective, another editor considers subjcive and biased - and vice versa.  Instead, we require the views we include in articles to be WP:Verifiable, which is demonstrably the case here as they come from a published book.


 * I do not understand your point about, "When five white policemen shot a young unarmed African immigrant 41 times in the doorway of his New York apartment, this can’t be explained by examining their genes or biology." are you suggesting that this incident can or should be explained by examining genes or biology? More to the point (since editors' views are irrelevant) do you know of any verifiable view that says that it can or should be explained by genes or biology? NPOV requires that we include all significant views from verifiable sources, so if you have a verifiable, reliable source that provides the view that this incident can and should be explained by genetics, as long as the view is not fringe, we can include it.


 * I also do not understand your point about "biologist" versus "political POV pusher." Many biologists are also political POV pushers.  Many non-biologists are experts on race.  What matters is that the view be significant and from a verifiable reliable source.  As it happens, many experts on race are evolutionary biologists - political scientists, historians, sociologists, anthropologists and literary critics.  And of course there are many people in each of these fields (including biology) who are not experts on race.  Moreover, in many cases biologists and political scientists (etc.) who study race share the same views, and biologists can disagree over race.  It is inevitable that we will include the views of people with training in each of these fields.  But picking people just based on their PhD. is not the way to achieve comprehensive and balanced coverage.


 * And of course more generally if you know of other reliable sources for significant views on this topic, by all means share it with us, we will probably include it. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 08:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I find it hard to believe WP does not consider neutrality. Surely by considering all sources it's possible to envisage a spectrum of views, and have a stab at the centre. Smedley and the AAA are very to the left, and not biologists.


 * Regarding the statement of shooting, this kind of highly emotive implied white-on-black racism is really inappropriate to base a behavioural genetic argument on, and is a tactic better applied to political pandering. And yes, incidentally, I'm sure the incident could be analysed from a genes and biology point of view, but again, such a one off highly charged incident is far from appropriate to a careful scientific study, especially for something so complicated as behavioural genetics. Such careless argument from emotion immediately identifies Smedley as out of field, this kind of material would be better for a newspaper than a scientific encyclopedia article.


 * Your argument regarding fields seems strange, and a way to insert fringe views. It's highly unusual for a person in one field to be an expert in another. It's extremely inappropriate to only reference someone out of field. If your assertion that "in many cases biologists and political scientists (etc.) who study race share the same views", it should be easy to find a biologist making the same claim as Smedley, and I suggest you do so.


 * I will certainly take pleasure in dredging up some additional sources in the near future. 80.254.146.52 (talk) 09:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Smedley is a widely cited authority on the subject--she's an anthropologist and historian, and of course currently almost nobody in the mainstream turns to "biologists" to explain such episodes. Professor marginalia (talk) 13:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I don't see your point. 80.254.146.52 (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * How are you defining "the mainstream"? 80.254.146.52 (talk) 14:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That your objection to her example is a poor argument in favor of "biologists". "Mainstream" as in WP:FRINGE. Professor marginalia (talk) 14:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec) @IP: Smedley is the expert in her field on race. Smedley is not cited in the article to make "scientific" claims; you miss the point of the passage you quote: that genetics and biology, at that moment of social interaction, is irrelevant; that what is (exclusively) at the forefront at that moment is our perception of race, that is, race as a social construct, how we each individually view others. That anthropologists, biologists, geneticists et al. agree or disagree or cite findings outside their own field as correlating or supporting their own views regarding is to be expected, and the topic of another conversation. Furthermore, there is no "left" or "right," there is nothing political here. If you are uncomfortable with the notion that how you interact with other "races" is a reflection of your upbringing and social mores—and not biology, regardless of where the argument over biological/genetic distinctions winds up, trends and counter-arguments notwithstanding—then you are just another person looking for a biological excuse for societal conduct. You might consider that Smedley is an "advocate," and I will grant that, as the result of her studies, not as someone looking for excuses to bolster a personal agenda; whereas history is replete with "scientists" whose studies were informed by and used to justify personal prejudices. Your underlying premise that advocacy twists facts (non-neutral, not a scientific attitude, et al.) is ultimately a convenient excuse to pronounce her views unsuitable for the article. Whether you realize that's your underlying position is another matter. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 14:37, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually have a great deal of objection to this, on purely scientific grounds. I also object to your attribution of my personal feelings on the subject. However, what I think is irrelevant. I agree with your interpretation of Smedley, but maintain that it is at odds with mainstream POV. I will attempt to find some sources to demonstrate this. 80.254.146.52 (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * And there are numerous biologists already cited in the section. Professor marginalia (talk) 15:24, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, this conversation sounds like a rebroadcast-same singling out of Smedley, "not a biologist", "not representative of the field", "all about the history of slavery", "left leaning", yep. Hitting each and every one of those too-familiar buttons as a now-banned user.    Professor marginalia (talk) 15:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've been reading the archives. I entirely agree with that user. Why was he banned? Suarneduj (talk) 15:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Since you seem familiar enough with the 29 volume archive here to have recognized "this user" among the countless other editors whose comments are found there, then all you have to do is click on his user talk page to find your answers. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:19, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * What is clear is that this user understands neither Wikipedia policy nor scholarship, and at this point I think we have had more than enough good-faith discussion. At this point we can just ignore any repetition of the same, senseless points. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 16:24, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed-obviously. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "What is clear is that this user understands neither Wikipedia policy nor scholarship." Where have I violated policy? Sorry if I don't share your extremist left "there are no biological differences" POV, but I'm not violating policy. The only policy violation is NPOV, by you. Suarneduj (talk) 18:31, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The comment wasn't directed at you. Best to move along, this thread is over -- srsly. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * So is it time for you to run crying to ANI? Suarneduj (talk) 19:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Why tag on tragically
The authors view is obviously that the suffering "race" has caused is all the more tragic given the superficiality of its most identifiable characteristics (external appearance). There's no explanation needed. And since the authors don't go to the lengths of explaining the obvious, adding the obvious as an explanation would be synthesis not in the source. That is why the single word is there cited to the source to make it clear it is not an editorial interpretation. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 20:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It may not be an editorial interpretation (if it were, then I'd have removed it, not tagged it), but it is not outstanding writing, either. As with most writing by most people, it could use some revision (and revision is what Wikipedia is all about). Look closely at the sentence: "Tragically,[A] those characteristics most closely associated with classifying races: skin color, hair color and texture, and facial characteristics—[B] while evolutionarily important [C]—are among the most superficial of human genetic traits."[D] I don't know whether "superficial" is supposed to mean "unimportant" or "near the surface", but let's pretend that we know what D means, and for the sake of argument let's assume that "B = C = D" is a true equation. Still, I'm not sure how A comes into the picture, to make the full assertion, "B = C = D, therefore A". Skin color, etc., is not intrinsically tragic. Evolutionary importance seems like an opposite of tragedy, at least for those with the "important" traits. And "superficial" is either dismissive ("Looks are superficial; it's personality that counts") or descriptive ("it's a superficial wound, so it only affects the skin"). How is superficiality, per se, tragic? Even if the reader can sort of intuit the reason why the word "tragically" might be there, the reader--if astute enough--will recognize that the sentence, itself, is a far cry from a syllogism. The line is poorly phrased, and the word "tragically" is out of context. Cosmic Latte (talk) 15:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "A" given the strife race has caused; "tragically" comes from the source's original statement which binds the tragedy of past race relations to the genetic superficiality of race (that is, specific causative genetic differences which govern appearance but nothing else). You're over-analyzing. Is the tragedy of centuries of racial strife as the result of genetically superficial differences that unclear? "A" is per the source, it has nothing to do with my editorial opinion; removing "A" ultimately misrepresents the source. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 16:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What is "the source's original statement"? The one saying that the "possibility that human history has been characterized by genetically relatively homogeneous groups ('races'), distinguished by major biological differences, is not consistent with genetic evidence"? The quote is asserting that "genetic evidence" does not support the idea of "race", if by "race" one means "genetically relatively homogeneneous groups...distinguished by major biological differences". I suppose that "major biological differences" could contrast with differentiation in "superficial" characteristics. So, perhaps it would be a good idea to move the tagged line up, so that it follows the "major biological differences" line. But even if "superficial" can be put in context, where do we see anything about tragedy in that entire section, let alone in any quote? The article hasn't gotten there yet. Yes, it eventually connects race (as popularly understood) with genocide, slavery, apartheid, and the like. The word "tragically", therefore, functions sort of like a road sign saying, "Warning! Tragedy ahead!" This sort of thing is fine for road signs and for TV shows with graphic content, but an encyclopedia should not keep its readers in suspense. Encyclopedias do not have "spoiler warnings". It is the job of the WP:LEAD to let the reader know what lies ahead, but even "the lead...should not 'tease' the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article." I have worked extensively on the lead, molding it into two paragraphs: 1) race as a legitimate scientific concept, and 2) race as a problematic popular belief. The lead can have four paragraphs. Perhaps a third one should be introduced to let the reader know what kinds of tragedy have resulted from the popular idea of race. (I'd even be willing to draft such a paragraph when I have a moment.) Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just added the third paragraph. :-) Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I trust I have adequately addressed the, , tags including removing the "tragical" editorializing. Also, elsewhere in the section, originally it stated "Race as a correlate..." regarding biomedicine and I had added "surrogate" to be more readable, so back to my preferred version there. :-) P ЄTЄRS  J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 18:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice work! The section flows considerably better now. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The lede seems a bit long, "Intergroup competition fosters ingroup biases against their outgroup.[27][28] Accordingly, when groups find themselves in competition with their designated outgroups, the more privileged group may subject its disadvantaged counterpart to discriminatory treatment...." is tending away from the core of the article and to race relations instead. It's enough to indicate that the social concept and instantiation of race, particularly since the 18th century, has been the origin of considerable suffering and to leave it at that. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 18:53, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You're probably right. Personally, I have a tendency to "over-write" (my professors grew a little weary of my 100-page versions of "20-page essay" assignments!), and I suspected almost from the beginning that the lead would need to be tightened--perhaps by moving certain details to a later section in the article. There's just one problem, IMO: As of now, the article doesn't even have areas devoted to race relations or racism. The article spends too much time explaining what race is not (indeed, it's not a subspecies or an essential type--we get the point), and too little time exploring the realities of race (which is--yes, we get it--defined differently in different circumstances), including racism and its horrific consequences. I could be wrong, but I think a section called "Race relations", perhaps with a subsection called "Racism", might be a good idea. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: I've gone ahead and tried to tighten the lead, incorporating some elements of the fourth paragraph into the third, and then commenting out the fourth paragraph for potential use in future revisions of the article. (Well, that's assuming that the fourth paragraph is actually good enough to keep in some form or another.) Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm still struggling somewhat with the current lede as it's quite huge as compared to the one here and repeats concepts. Also, racism is outside the purview of this article, which is about the system of human classification colloquially referred to as "race." As such, race having originated as a social construct based on external physical and cultural differences, the content of the article should largely be about the origins of the concept of race as imagining significant biological differences between human populations based on perceived differences and how those differences actually map—or do not map to— genetically divergent populations. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 23:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI, the thought had been to slowly work through all the sections and then readjust the lede as necessary to reflect the article contents. I had initially cleaned up the lede down to just its essentials. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 23:55, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

[outdent] Fair points, but they beg the question of whether the "tragedies" of genocide, etc. should be mentioned anywhere at all in the lead. I would think it's not race, per se, that has caused suffering; "race" on its own appears to be no more tragic than "rock" on its own: Somebody has to have a reason to throw the rock at someone else, and actually has to throw it. As for race, I don't see how we can get from "race" to "suffering" without some sort of causal chain, e.g., "Racial factors + social class <-> power <-> competition <-> racism <-> discriminatory treatment -> suffering." But perhaps it would suffice just to say something to the effect of, "Early and enduring conceptions of race, in combination with socioeconomic factors, have led to enormous suffering amongst the disadvantaged racial groups"? As an aside, I don't really see why an article about race shouldn't devote at least a little bit of space to a discussion of the abuse of race, i.e., racism. IMO, it's sort of like having an article about alcohol that doesn't talk about addiction. I do, however, entirely agree that the focus of the article (if the article even has a focus at this point) should be the nature of race, and not that of racism. Cosmic Latte (talk) 00:30, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: Okay, I've had a go at tightening it even more. Please see what you think of the resulting version. Cosmic Latte (talk) 01:13, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it is quite obvious that we could and should write that the division of humans into racial groups has been used as justification for discrimination, oppression, and genocide based on the view that different races do no have equal status as humans. It would also not be a problem to find good sources for this statement. Your causal chain on the other hand looks like OR. Race of course by itself hasn't caused anything - especially seeing that it has no objective existence - it only exists in so far as humans have made use of it - and its use has generally been as a divisive tool (even if we suppose that there is a kind of biological basis for the category the category itself only comes into existence when articulated by humans).·Maunus· ƛ · 12:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "especially seeing that it has no objective existence" this is just one opinion, some would say it's an extremist one from people on the fringes of academia. See the Sokal affair for claims that "objective reality is a social construct" mocked by academics who actually make a practical contribution to civilization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Dickman (talk • contribs) 14:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You are not getting it. ·Maunus· ƛ · 15:04, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you explain to me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Dickman (talk • contribs) 15:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Race doesn't have any objective existence because it is a word that is and has been used in many different ways in different social and historical contexts. A definition based only on continental genetic heritage is not sufficient or possible (for example because most people have genetic heritage from more than one continent). The fact that race only has contextual existece doesn't mean it isn't important or that it doesn't affect us, it just means that the way the concept is used cannot be reduced to any single paramater such as e.g. genetics. The Sokal affair has nothing to do with this - this was a scientist who got tired of postmodernist jargon and decided to parody it. The description of social constructs is an important contribution to siciety because those constructs affect our every day lives more than we would ever think. After all the world economic system is also "just a social construct". Thats enough for now Mike.·Maunus· ƛ · 15:27, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the point is that race exists as a perception and it is acting on that perception, whether through prejudice or fear or self-superiority that has been at the root of race-related human suffering. We've also established that the external characteristics we associate with race (and which have for centuries defined humanity's notion of races) are not genetically significant differences. Again, race relations are not part of this article. A link to existing content elsewhere is sufficient, we also already sufficiently cover the anthropological aspects of race with regard to classification. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 14:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course race relations is poart of this article. The point of having a main article about general concepts is so that it can link to spinnout articles on all the relevant related topics. If race relations is not relevant to the description of what race is then I don't know what is. The article shouldn't just state different arguments for and against different definitions of race - it should also lead the reader to all of the other relevant topics that he might be looking for and explain their relation to the concept.·Maunus· ƛ · 15:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And, with all due respect to Vecrumba, I think there's more than a little irony in suggesting (in good faith, of course) that this article, of all articles, should focus on defining its subject without emphasizing the relational aspects of the subject... Cosmic Latte (talk) 15:18, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * [edit conflict] Re. Maunus: The "causal chain" was just a quick attempt to capture the gist of both A) the lead as it had been in the four-paragraph version, and B) sources, like, that convey the recursive and multifactorial nature of racial groupings. Countless sources point especially to social class relations as the hidden culprit. As a sidenote, I'd caution against overstatement and oversimplification in the article of the "race = social construct" equation. If we realize that even empirical observation in genetics may be socially constructed (see p. 14 of this book), then we ought perhaps to ask ourselves if the article goes to excessive lengths to dichotomize science and society. There have been, one might suspect, both helpful and harmful definitions of race espoused by both the scientific community (emphasis on "community") and society at large. But I digress. Anyway, I pretty much agree with what you said (apart from the suggestion that the "causal chain" was OR...unless, that is, by "OR" you meant "obnoxious rambling" :Þ), except that (as per various sources) I'd emphasize that race has been used as an ostensibly divisive tool, often serving to obscure the very social context in which the racial distinctions had been constructed in the first place. Cosmic Latte (talk) 14:58, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course it shouldn't be overstated - but I don't think it is. If anything it is just using much too much verbiage to argue against the opposite view without ever actual giving a clear definition of what a social construct actually is. This is why guys like Mikemikev (now in the guise of Frank Dickman) keep failing to understand that social constructions are as real as any other construction and have the same effects and that the concept "race" is not a natural category any more than "chinese" or "geneticist" is - they are labels that wehave decided to use in a certain way. The doubt is not about whether race is a social construction the doubt is about whether this social construction should be defined as prinmarily having a biological definition or a socio-political one. Even if we decide that race is best defined by haplogroups the definition will still be a social construction because that definition is decided on by human beings engaging in a social negotiation of how best to use the specific combination of letters R-A-C-E. The only way the article can convey this basic fact is by describing how definitions of the concept have been used and negotiated over time - this naturally includes mentions of the most impoirtant events in that negotiation some of which are develkopments in anthropology in the early 20th century, second world war and the american civil rights movement. Without these events the understanding of what race means that is in most wide currecny today woud not exist - Describing developments in race relations therefore are an unavoidable part of describing the words genealogy and its present definition.·Maunus· ƛ · 15:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like your definition of "social construction" is pretty much the same as "word". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Dickman (talk • contribs) 18:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, a word is just a string of sounds or letters. Its the meaning of the word (yes, any word) that is a social construction - and its meaning comes through the way it is used.·Maunus· ƛ · 18:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool! I'm off to pointlessly write "is a social construct" into every article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Dickman (talk • contribs) 18:46, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that writing "race is a social construct" is pointless - that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that the article should describe the different ways in which the concept has been and continue to be socially constructed - part of this is the debate about the degree to which the colloquial use of the word in America corresponds to geo-genetic heritage or to a kind of social divide sustained by the powers that be by reference to physical phenotype differences. Another part is to describe how world events has changed these conceptualizations over time and how these changing conceptualizations have affected human beings.·Maunus· ƛ · 19:19, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I agree. But the fact that race has been subject to changing definitions and political abuse doesn't mean that there isn't an underlying physically real phenomenon. Geographically associated gene correlation patterns are actually physically real, however you slice and dice them. The labels given to local maxima or points on a continuum at varying degrees of resolution will always be an approximation, but there is an underlying objective reality. This isn't a POV, it's simply a fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Dickman (talk • contribs) 11:51, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Re. Cool! I'm off to pointlessly write "is a social construct" into every article.: Psht. You could make the same WP:POINT in a whole lot less time by going over to social constructionism and just calling that a social construct! >:) Cosmic Latte (talk) 08:53, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would if I didn't think they'd agree with me. Maybe it would more fun to argue that the edits are social constructs and of equal value. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RLShinyblingstone (talk • contribs) 11:26, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

This entire discussion on race is a one-sided attempt to eliminate any sense that there are major visible human group differences. No visibility is given to the many (majority?) of anthropologists who do use the term as a useful partitioning of the peoples of world. Main stream anthropologists believe there are seven major racial groups in the world; where is that delineation discussed? The usual debator’s trick is used ad nauseum of claiming that because racial types vary one from the other on a continuous scale, there are therefore no major groupings. This is akin to saying there is no difference between snow, ice, and liquid water because each state slides seamlessly into the other. The normative concept of race is not proved false because it is not a perfect state, and to attack it for that reason, as this site does, is merely the attempt of one group of authors to avoid given any space to any opposing opinions.Tholzel (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I know of no such mainstream anthropologists - and I can provide a rather large amount of sources, including the official website on race of the American Anthropological Association that state quite unequivocally that the mainstream anthropological view of race is that: "Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective." and that "Race" thus evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories."·Maunus· ƛ · 22:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

My mistake. I shouldn't have said "anthropologists." In today's climate of political correctness, you are not allowed to be an anthropologist unless you are an ardent multicultural social activist.

I should have said first that the U.S. Government uses racial classifications in its census forms:


 * In October 1997, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) announced the revised standards for federal data on race and ethnicity. The minimum categories for race are now: American Indian or Alaska Native; Asian; Black or African American; Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander; and White. Instead of allowing a multiracial category as was originally suggested in public and congressional hearings, the OMB adopted the Interagency Committee's recommendation to allow respondents to select one or more races when they self-identify. With the OMB's approval, the Census 2000 questionnaires also include a sixth racial category: Some Other Race. There are also two minimum categories for ethnicity: Hispanic or Latino and Not Hispanic or Latino. Hispanics and Latinos may be of any race.

And secondly, I should have brought up that the only scientists who known anything functionally about racial differences are the biologists. The New England Journal of Medicine has this to say about biological (as opposed to political) racial differences:

From The New England Journal of Medicine 

The Importance of Race and Ethnic Background in Biomedical Research and Clinical Practice

"In the United States, race and ethnic background have been used as cause for discrimination, prejudice, marginalization, and even subjugation. Excessive focus on racial or ethnic differences runs the risk of undervaluing the great diversity that exists among persons within groups. However, this risk needs to be weighed against the fact that in epidemiologic and clinical research, racial and ethnic categories are useful for generating and exploring hypotheses about environmental and genetic risk factors, as well as interactions between risk factors, for important medical outcomes. Erecting barriers to the collection of information such as race and ethnic background may provide protection against the aforementioned risks; however, it will simultaneously retard progress in biomedical research and limit the effectiveness of clinical decision making. … Nonetheless, racial or ethnic differences in the outcomes of disease sometimes persist even when discrepancies in the use of interventions known to be beneficial are considered. For example, the rate of complications from type 2 diabetes mellitus varies according to racial or ethnic category among members of the same health maintenance organization, despite uniform utilization of outpatient services and after adjustment for levels of education and income, health behavior, and clinical characteristics.11 The evaluation of whether genetic (as well as nongenetic) differences underlie racial disparities is appropriate in cases in which important racial and ethnic differences persist after socioeconomic status and access to care are properly taken into account."

So, my point is that there is large corpus of legitimate discussion of human racial differences that is not politically motivated or "a social construct," (whatever that means). These voices should be added to the Wikipedia discussion of human racial classification.Tholzel (talk) 00:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, diabetes for example is strongly related to environment. There are many correlations; those are quite often also (and more strongly) to factors other than "race." If people of similar socioeconomic status and access to care are divided by their consumption of chitlins, I'm confident chitlins will trump race as regards differences in health every time. Are there as many young black men who find themselves participating in or becoming victims of violent crime because blacks as a race are more violent? Certainly no one is going to put forward that premise. Correlation is not causative.


 * We want to believe "race" aligns to truly genetically divergent populations, but true genetic differences&mdash;as you dig beneath the surface&mdash;don't line up neatly along the racial boundary. There was a time where I was more of a believer in that (thinking of well known things such as propensity for sickle cell anemia or other medical disorders, drugs targeted to racial populations,...), but as I peeled away the layers of "obviousness" of those, what I found underneath was something a bit different.


 * Lastly, a bit more on the lighter side, IMHO, there's no "adjusting" statistics for the diversity in cuisine as aligned to ethnic and racial groups (functioning as ethnic groups). You can compare results according to who gorges sashimi and who eats chitlins, but you can't "adjust" those two populations into a single data sample. Lastly, diverting completely to another topic but illustrating the dangers of correlation, we used to think coffee was bad for us until someone thought to also check doughnut consumption. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 21:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it is not sufficient to conversationally bring up some unfounded theory (diabetes) to disqualify the New England Journal of Medicine claim that race does matter when it comes to selecting which drugs to use for best outcome, based on race. (Meaning that racial differences exist on the biological level.) Further, it is wastefull to keep adding more and more left-wing anthropologist to the list of people who hate the very concept of "race." (They can't even bring themselves to use the word; they say "ethnicity" instead, meaning exactly the saem thing.)

These little homilies (see below) may be a cute way of diagreeing with the concept of racial diffeences among humans, but they add absolutely nothing to the discussion--except to proudly reinforce the author's political inclination.

Please count the number of anti-racial cliams vs the number of pro-race claims, and see if this article is giving a fair representation of opinions--primarily biological and medical opinions which differ completely with the wholly politicized assemblage we have here--of human racial differences.

Also, can we please drop the fatuous slippery slope argument that because racial types are no longer perfectly separate, therefore they don't exist? Dogs, which are also racially divided. also are no longer perfect genotypes--yet we recognize both "pure-bred" breeds (Oh how anthropolgist hate that term) and mutts--like our President. You don't see groups of ideologues lining up to claim that there are no different dog breeds, why the entire idea is a racist folly. Etc., etc.

In other words, let's discuss the issue from VARIOUS mainstream points of view--not totally eliminate one half of the subject matter. 72.61.197.200 (talk) 15:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC) (Tholzel)


 * P.S. On the whole "social construct" thing, it is what it is:
 * we look different
 * so we must be different
 * so I can treat you differently
 * The point is that genetic differences are completely irrelevant to the construct and its societal effect. We only started to understand DNA in the 1950's; race and prejudice are a lot older than that. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 21:53, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I should note
Thanks to Professor marginalia for putting the dialog above out of our misery. Let's abstain from mixing anthropology, biology, and genetics and from arguing about the political leanings of particular disciplines. If "...(classification of humans)" is not about humanity's self-perceptions—and cross-disciplined studies thereof and of their bases, then what is? (That is a rhetorical question!) P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 19:48, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Gene frequency differences? Suarneduj (talk) 19:54, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And gene frequencies have had the potential to assist in informing our (modern) notions of "race" for how long? We didn't even know how "genes" were encoded until, what, 1944? And now that we've sequenced ourselves, it's even more interesting to see how statistics can serve both sides, but that's another conversation. Statistical gene analysis has arguably pretty much settled everything according to most and settled hardly anything for others. IMHO, the usefulness of investigating meaningful genetic differences among and between populations gets lost in arguing over how well those differences align to "race." P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 03:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Plus, gene frequencies allow us to distinguish populations of humans quantitatively rather than qualitatively. The rise of genetics is in fact historically a major reason for why scientists moved away from race, because we now understand that phenotype often does not reflect genotype (a basic principle of genetics) and because measuring gene frequencies shows human variation to be along a continuum rather than clearly defined, rigid and immutable, boundaries.  But these points are already in the article.  The real point is that Suarneduj should read the article and understand what it already says before trying to suggest changes.  This page is to dicuss improvements to the article, and spending time explaining the same basic points over and over again do not serve any constructive purpose. Time to move on. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 11:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "The rise of genetics is in fact historically a major reason for why scientists moved away from race." Yes, I am finding multiple sources from the friendly largest bio-medical library in my state that say the same. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 00:21, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Can we have a reason why The New England Journal of Medicine does not qualify as a source of information on the medical differences between races, other than the long list of anthropologists, sociaologist, etc., who are cited?

Here is the NEJM quote:

The New England Journal of Medicine has this to say about biological (as opposed to political) racial differences:

From The New England Journal of Medicine [5]

The Importance of Race and Ethnic Background in Biomedical Research and Clinical Practice

"In the United States, race and ethnic background have been used as cause for discrimination, prejudice, marginalization, and even subjugation. Excessive focus on racial or ethnic differences runs the risk of undervaluing the great diversity that exists among persons within groups. However, this risk needs to be weighed against the fact that in epidemiologic and clinical research, racial and ethnic categories are useful for generating and exploring hypotheses about environmental and genetic risk factors, as well as interactions between risk factors, for important medical outcomes. Erecting barriers to the collection of information such as race and ethnic background may provide protection against the aforementioned risks; however, it will simultaneously retard progress in biomedical research and limit the effectiveness of clinical decision making. … Nonetheless, racial or ethnic differences in the outcomes of disease sometimes persist even when discrepancies in the use of interventions known to be beneficial are considered. For example, the rate of complications from type 2 diabetes mellitus varies according to racial or ethnic category among members of the same health maintenance organization, despite uniform utilization of outpatient services and after adjustment for levels of education and income, health behavior, and clinical characteristics.11 The evaluation of whether genetic (as well as nongenetic) differences underlie racial disparities is appropriate in cases in which important racial and ethnic differences persist after socioeconomic status and access to care are properly taken into account."

My point is that there is large corpus of legitimate discussion of human racial differences that is not politically motivated or "a social construct," (whatever that means). These voices should be added to the Wikipedia discussion of human racial classification.Tholzel (talk) 00:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)74.104.98.213 (talk) 20:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

So, there being no objection, I will re-insert the NEMJ quote as a partial balance to the many, many sociological counter claims against race as anything but a nasty made-up concept. 74.104.98.213 (talk) 21:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've reverted it. It isn't a quote from the NEMJ-it's a quote from an opinion piece (lead author Burchard).  The lengthy quote is putting undue weight on the position, which has already been briefly outlined in the section.  You have a user account.  You've already contributed here with your login so try to remember you need to login first before you post. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:40, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Is there any reason at all to include the following quotation, which has nothing to do with the biology of race and everything with a polticial distaste for the subject--and is thus merely ideological ventilation?

"Detractors of race-based medicine acknowledge that race is sometimes useful in clinical medicine, but encourage minimizing its use. They suggest that medical practices should maintain their focus on the individual rather than an individual's membership to any group. They argue that overemphasizing genetic contributions to health disparities carries various risks such as reinforcing stereotypes, promoting racism or ignoring the contribution of non-genetic factors to health disparities.[106] Some researchers in the field have been accused "of using race as a placeholder during the 'meantime' of phamacogenomic development".[107]" Tholzel (talk) 15:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It is a notable and representative opinion in the debate over the how the category race is best used in disease prevention and medical treatment. Notable opinions belong here. Our own opinions do not. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:20, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Whatever you believe is notable, what nearly ALL doctors believe who are practically involved in the issue, is not. Thus, the fact that whole blood users are closely matched (whenever possible) to racial classification when obtaining infusions (because types A, B, AB & O are only one small aspect of optimum compatibility) doesn’t count—indeed, would probably not be allowed expression—too racist—even if that is the unarguable fact of the matter. Tholzel (talk) 00:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The opinion isn't notable because it's mine or any other wikipedian's opinion. The opinion is notable because it was adopted by a multi-disciplinary panel of bioengineers, geneticists, bioethicists, and other representatives from these respective departments at Stanford University.  The claim in the article doesn't say "nearly ALL doctors" believe in anything.  You're entering into the debate itself, and not simply assessing the references as is the proper position to take here.  Professor marginalia (talk) 01:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not entering into the debate. I am trying to point out that the current article on human racial differences makes every attempt to deny such differences for political reasons, while scientific opinion that differs is ignored, sidelined, or excluded based on simple distaste for the opinion. Here is an except of racial clasification from another respected source which should be included in order to give a well-rounded overview of the ongoing debate:

Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12620b.htm Although the human race must be regarded as a unit intellectually and physically, there have existed and still exist differences which permit a classification into various groups and races. Even the most ancient remains of man, dating from the glacial period in Europe, show differences that justify the acceptance of at least two races. Remains of skeletons that certainly belong to the Quaternary age have been found in France, Germany, and Austria. The shape of the crania found at Spy, Krapina, La Chapelle aux Saintes, Le Moustier, etc., resembles that of the skull discovered at Neandertal, the geological stratification of which is uncertain. These remains can be grouped together as the "Neandertal race", which had a long, narrow, low skull with very retreating forehead, enormous brown ridges (torus supraorbitalis), powerful masticating apparatus, upper jaw with the fossae caninae, heavy under jaw with broad ascending branch, no chin, and chin part with an outward convex curve. Some of these characteristics are still to be found among the Eskimo and aboriginal Australians. The bones of the skeletons indicate a bulky, relatively low-sized frame. The gait was upright, but it would seem with knees somewhat bent. Variations existed even in this era. The Krapina remains belong to crania somewhat broader than do the remains of the Neandertal race of Western Europe. The strata in which the remains of the skeletons were found must be regarded as belonging to the last warm intermediate period (or the last glacial period), and were found with remains of the early Palaeolithic period, the stage of civilization represented by the Saint-Acheul and Le Moustier remains. During the glacial period, particularly during the late Palaeolithic period (as represented by the remains found at Aurignac, Solutré, and La Madeleine), human beings of a different form existed. Their remains, as those found at Laugerie-Basse, Chaneclade, Mentone, and Combe-Capelle, may be grouped together as the "Cro-Magnon Race". The peculiarities of the Neandertal race are not to be found; the generally long dolichocephalic crania have a good vault, and are relatively high without great brow ridges; the apparatus for mastication is less powerful; the upper jaw contains plainly fossae caninae; the under jaw is less massive, the chin being fine and projecting. In the structure of the cranium the Cro-Magnon race on the whole resembled the modern European. Local variations are recognizable. It is not impossible that both diluvial races lived at the same era, so that crossing appeared, as would seem the case from the skulls found at Galley Hill and at Brünn. The bones of the skeletons indicate a higher stature. Variations with a broader skull appeared in Europe very soon after this, if not along with the long-skulled Cro-Magnon race in the diluvian epoch, so that the present different shapes of crania found in Europe seem to go back to the earliest era. Schliz ascertained two main forms of crania in the remains found in a layer of the Ofnet cave near Nördlingen (Bavaria) belonging to the transition period between the Quaternary and the present geological era: one was a low, short skull and the other a moderately high, long skull, both with a low, broad face. These skulls recall, on one hand, the form of the skull of the homo alpinus, and, on the other, the structure of the skull of the later lake-dwellers and of the Mediterranean type. … Following Cuvier and Topinard, W. H. Flower, an Englishman, separates mankind into three main divisions: •	Ethiopian or Negroid Races: (a) The African type of negro; (b) Hottentots and Bushmen; (c) The Oceanic negro or Melanesians; (d) Negritos. •	Mongolian Race: (a) Eskimo; (b) The Mongols proper, comprising the Mongolo-Altaic group; and the southern Mongolian group; (c) Malayans; (d) Polynesians, Maoris; (e) Americans. •	Caucasians, comprising Kanthoeroi and Melanochroi. Etc. Tholzel (talk) 15:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Apples and oranges. None of the above has anything whatsoever to do with the "race based medicine" debate which is the subject of the section we're discussing. Furthermore nobody in the sciences accepts these definitions today. (Homo alpinus? This is 2010-and what's the date of the source you're using? 1930?) Professor marginalia (talk) 16:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Even better - it dates from 1911. I think that a few discoveries may have been made in the past century....Ergative rlt (talk) 20:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You are mixing apples and oranges. The Catholic Encyclopedia article is using the word race to refer to subspecies.  But the races you refer to (Negroid, Mongolian - I think you mean Mongoloid? - and Caucasian - or Caucasoid) are not subspecies.  These are as our article notes a taxonomic classification that developed in the 19th century and that has largely been rejected by evolutionary biologists and population geneticists and others who research biological variation among humans.  Hottentots and Bushmen are pejorative terms, but they refer to pastoralist and hunter-gatherer groups in Southwest Africa i.e. societies, which may be isomorphic with populations or may not be (and note Vercrumba's important point below about how cultural differnces can lead to genetic differences) but most definitely are not subspecies.  The genetic differences between so-called Hottentots and Bushmen may be as great as the differences between Caucasoids and Negroids, but they are definitely not great enough to establish them as different subspecies.  The races you pick out are much, much, much closer genetically than Neandertrhals and Cro-Magnon.


 * Your point about political motives are irrelevant. The views you are espousing are unscintific.  The article currently represents the best science of the present. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 16:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

“The races you pick out are much, much, much closer genetically than Neandertrhals and Cro-Magnon.”

Well, I’m glad you are using the term “race” as everyone else does—genetically transmitted visible differences among human groups, generally groups that have interbred for centuries and, based on environmental Darwinian responses (skin color to shield against the sun, higher vital capacity for those living at altitude, etc.) congenitally acquired these advantageous differences which are so clearly visible that they are used to loosely classify the groups. I don’t quite understand this urge to eliminate this common understanding of the word race by the incredibly complicated “explanation” given in the article. “Clines,” “ DNA,” “genomic analysis”--all are served up not to define the word but to steer the conversation away from any possible admission that human groups differ anatomically and visually.

The tendentious nature of this argument fall apart the instant one compares the grouping of other animals, say dogs. Dogs—all of whom can interbreed—are classified by race (the term of art is “breeds”). No one complains. No one writes long turgid “explanations” about dog breeds that explain nothing except that the authors hate the idea that dogs can be grouped by hereditary differences. One could compare all the legerdemain of clines, DNA, etc. and “prove”—as this article strains to do--that because there are mixed dog breeds, therefore no breeds exist per se. And because no pure breeds remain, therefore there are no breeds at all. The hidden assumption behind this posture is because there is an infinity of mixture possibilities, the slippery slope is a straight line with no discernable difference between a Dachshund and a Great Dane. It doesn’t wash with dogs; it doesn’t wash with humans. Why the continued disinclination to define the term “race” in the way it is accepted by nearly everyone else? Tholzel (talk) 21:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is another Wikipdia discussion of race:

"In biology, races are distinct genetically divergent populations within the same species with relatively small morphological and genetic differences. The populations can be described as ecological races if they arise from adaptation to different local habitats or geographic races when they are geographically isolated. If sufficiently different, two or more races can be identified as subspecies, which is an official biological taxonomy unit subordinate to species. If not, they are denoted as races, which means that a a formal rank should not be given to the group, or taxonomists are unsure whether or not a formal rank should be given. According to Ernst W. Mayr, "a subspecies is a geographic race that is sufficiently different taxonomically to be worthy of a separate name" [1][1]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)Tholzel (talk) 19:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Please stop orwading your own arguments. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.  Your views correspond to a fringe view rejected by most scholars who study human beings.  All acknowledge that race is a social construction; in very specific situations, mostly in the US and other ountries with histories of strong social segregation, there are situations where self-identified race is a convenient surrogate for genetic population, although as the extensive debate over BDIL revealed, making this assumption just as often leads to bad science and dangerous medical decisions.  What you think, Tom, is irrelevant.  This aticle does a good job of representing what scientists actually think, sorry your political agenda makes this uncongenial to you. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 19:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

MY own arguments? That's a good one. It is clear to everyone but you and a few others who have taken over this article that the only arguments allowed are yours; that's why they are there and no one else's are allowed. What is your point in complaining generically about "my" arguments--and absoluely refusing to come to grips with them? Saying I'm wrong is not an argument. Screaming I'm wrong is not an argument. I bring up competing opinions; you complain that I am wrong and everyone agrees with you. Can you please answer my questions, posed above? Or are you going to threaten me for unspecified offenses, which is always step two in silencing critics who dare to disagree with you--AND PROVIDE COUNTER EVIDENCE--which you obviously can't abide.Tholzel (talk) 22:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Provide "counter-evidence?" Tom, that makes it sound like you and I are inolved in a debate about race.  I am not going to do that.  You misunderstand me: I am not "complaining" about your arguments - I am complaining that you are arguing.  I am not saying you are wrogn, I am not screaming you are wrong.  I do not care whether you are right or wrong.  'Wikipedia is not a chat room, nor is it a soap box'. This is not the place for your aguments and evidence, or for mine.  The views of editors do not count.  All that matters is that this article provides all significant views from reliable sources.  I believe it does.  So far you have presented a quote from an opinion piece in the New England Journal of Medicine (i.e. something that did not go through peer-review and that presents itself as one person's opinion, not the view i the editors of the NEJM which you implied by falsely claiming that this is what the NEJM had "to say," and then a quote rom a 1911 encyclopedia ... these are hardly reliable sources on significant views.  I am not arguing with you over race, I am arguing with you over how to improve an article: we improve articles by enssuring they represent all significant views from reliable sources proportionately, and so far you haven't written anything to sugest it does not.  Instead, you pick quotes that support your own political agenda about race, and then you demand that I provide "counter-evidence?"  Sorry Tom, we are not members of a debating club, and we are not engaged in any debate about race or what race is or which view of race is right.  That is not what Wikipedia is for.  If you DO want to have a debate on what race is, find an appropriate chat-room. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 14:24, 25 December 2010 (UTC)


 * What was said a century ago about race (or two or three or four or...) was what was said then, no less, no more. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 00:09, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Your determination to prevent any other opinion on the concept of race categories of humans than your own to be aired on this supposedly encyclopedia article is based on the following rational fallacies: 1.	You are right and everyone else is wrong. Therefore any other opinions are ipso facto wrong and needn’t be considered. Perfect logic! 2.	Any attempt to show that there is a broadly accepted belief that racial differences exist are deemed by you as “argumentative” and therefore cannot be entertained. Indeed they should be admonished! Thus, you have hermetically sealed off any counter to your one-sided opinion. 3.	When trenchant counter-opinion is brought up, such as the Wikipedia article on race among animals which shows that in the entire animal kingdom--except humans!—racial differences are acknowledged, catalogue and used in practice, this is totally ignored, and responded to by further bullying.

Here are some of your domineering comments:

•	The opinion is notable because it was adopted by a multi-disciplinary panel of bioengineers, geneticists, bioethicists, and other representatives from these respective departments at Stanford University.

[Glad you cotton to Stanford. I’ve got an opposing opinion by two teams of genetics at Stanford. I tremble at how they will be disqualified.]]

•	You're entering into the debate itself, and not simply assessing the references as is the proper position to take here. [In other words, stop trying to give us evidence that there are substantial alternate opinions.]

•	The views you are espousing are unscintific. The article currently represents the best science of the present. Your views correspond to a fringe view rejected by most scholars who study human beings. All acknowledge that race is a social construction; [Ah-ha—the smoking gun. Since it is your opinion that “all acknowledge that race is social construct;” there is no sense in consider the many, many peer reviewed genetists who disagree.] Anyway, here is the list of a few who disagree with the social construct theory.:

Two teams of geneticists at Stanford University compared the DNA of 938 people from 51 populations in order to better document human diversity and past migrations around the world. They focused on 650,000 DNA nucleotides to discover differences. This provided what they believe to be clear evidence of human origins in Sub-Saharan Africa and its subsequent dispersion into various parts of the world. They believe that it is also evidence of more recent migrations that resulted in genetic differences between populations today such as North and South Chinese. (Jakobosson, Mattias et.al., Nature February 21, 2007 and Jun, Z. Li et.al., Science February 22, 2007) http://anthro.palomar.edu/vary/vary_2.htm The Races of Humanity by Richard McCulloch

Addendum: Degree of Genetic Difference between the Races of Humanity What are the percentages of genetic differences between the human races? Perhaps the best study to date (2010) on this subject is still that of Masatoshi Nei and Arun K. Roychoudhury from Evolutionary Relationships of Human Populations on a Global Scale (1993). The following table (Fig. 1 below) of estimates of genetic differences between human populations is from their study.

http://www.racialcompact.com/racesofhumanity.html

By 30,000 years ago the divergent evolutionary branching or dividing of the human species had produced five main lines or subspecies which are still extant -- the Congoid of West Africa; the Capoid of East and South Africa (later replaced in East Africa by the Congoid); the Australoid of India, Burma, Malaya, Indonesia, New Guinea and Australia; the Mongoloid of East Asia (later expanding to the southwest into Burma, Malaya and Indonesia, largely replacing the indigenous Australoids) and the Caucasoid of Europe, North Africa and West Asia (partly replacing the Mongoloids in the Americas after A.D. 1492 and the Australoids in Australia after A.D. 1788). These subspecies branched or divided in turn into separate races, and these races branched in their turn into subraces, as part of the continuing process of divergent evolution. In October 1997, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) announced the revised standards for federal data on race and ethnicity. The minimum categories for race are now: American Indian or Alaska Native; Asian; Black or African American; Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander; and White. Instead of allowing a multiracial category as was originally suggested in public and congressional hearings, the OMB adopted the Interagency Committee's recommendation to allow respondents to select one or more races when they self-identify. With the OMB's approval, the Census 2000 questionnaires also include a sixth racial category: Some Other Race. There are also two minimum categories for ethnicity: Hispanic or Latino and Not Hispanic or Latino. Hispanics and Latinos may be of any race. http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/racefactcb.html Bibliography of peer-reviewed articles on raqcial differences in medicine. 1.	Risch, N., Burchard, E., Ziv, E. & Tang, H. Categorization of humans in biomedical research: genes, race and disease. Genome Biol. 3, comment2007 (2002). | Article | 2.	Burchard, E.G. et al. The importance of race and ethnic background in biomedical research and clinical practice. N. Engl. J. Med. 348, 1170−1175 (2003). | Article | 3.	Wood, A.J. Racial differences in the response to drugs—pointers to genetic differences. N. Engl. J. Med. 344, 1394−1396 (2001). | Article | 4.	Exner, D.V., Dries, D.L., Domanski, M.J. & Cohn, J.N. Lesser response to angiotensin-converting-enzyme inhibitor therapy in black as compared with white patients with left ventricular dysfunction. N. Engl. J. Med. 344, 1351−1357 (2001). | Article | 5.	Varner, R.V., Ruiz, P. & Small, D.R. Black and white patients response to antidepressant treatment for major depression. Psychiatr. Q. 69, 117−125 (1998). | Article | Received 19 July 2004; Accepted 8 September 2004; Published online: 26 October 2004. http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html

I don’t suppose any of these sources deserve any mention in what is supposed to be a survey of the field, NOT the solitary opinion of a group of editors who refuse to let any voices be heard, except their own. Not what Wikipedia is about.Tholzel (talk) 15:57, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * We have self identification and race as cline where it comes to genetic impact. The challenge with "black and white" studies is that they find "racial" differences where race correlates to clines—which correlation is not at issue (while no one publishes results where there are no "difference"). Nor do such studies comprehensively look for clines within the study where response differences are the same or may be even more pronounced than along "racial" lines. The bio sources cited are 6 to 12 years old in a field which is constantly evolving&mdash;there is no "suppression of voices," these aspects of race are discussed. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 16:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see. First you say that no one believes other than you do on human racial classification. When I show otherwise in great detail, you dispense with my substantial evidence by uttering a few incomprehensible gobbledygook sentences which you assume is enough to prove them all wrong. You guys bring up Stanford geneticists who agree with you, and hold them up as the gold standard. I bring up TWO TEAMS of Stanford geneticists who disagree with you and that isn't worth acknowledging. Two of my sources are from 2007 and 2010 but you cavalierly claim my sources are "6 to 12 years old." (So you didn't even bother to read them.). In other words, facts no longer count. The net-net is you simply will not permit the other half of the profession to be heard which disagrees with your cherry-picked opinions. What I now want to know is why you consider yourself editors? By your obstreperousness you have demonstrated in spades that you are nothing less than ideologues determined at all costs to push your POV and prevent any other from being aired. This is surely not the purpose of Wikipedia. (And please, if you disagree with this assessment, state where I am wrong. We are far beyond the usual editorial bluster.) Tholzel (talk) 03:34, 27 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Re: years, I was referring to your "Bibliography of peer-reviewed articles on racial differences in medicine" list.
 * I'm not here to push any POV; and I'll be the first to agree that one would naturally assume that what's different on the outside must be different on the inside--independent of race originating as a social construct. However, genetics has essentially put the lie to that belief. I have no quarrel with your sources or what "facts" those sources present, rather with your conclusion that, for example, differences in response to a particular medication along a "black/white" divide means there are genetically significantly differentiated and identifiable "races." It is the geneticists themselves who say that is not the case, although there are some non-geneticists who argue that the geneticists aren't interpreting statistics regarding differences appropriately.
 * You might consider how to integrate the sources and facts you have at hand into the article rather than arguing that differences prove the biological existence of races along traditional, if you will, externally or self-identified lines. Wailing that facts don't count as opposed to being welcomed, that editors are being obstreperous as opposed to being thoughtful, that sources are cherry-picked as opposed to being inclusive is a bit over the top. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 04:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

What's the use of integrating the sources in the certain knowledge, that, just like my large listing above, it will both ignored in its totality and brushed off by nit-picked tiny details to death--and not allowed. Once again you are blithely asserting that your geneticists are right and mine are wrong. It doesn't matter how well I would organize the other side of the story—-you guys will reject it. So what's the point?

But, I’ll tell you what. IF I prepare a section on the opinions of other scientists who do believe that humans fall into a number of discernable races, would you print it?Tholzel (talk) 14:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The goal of an encyclopedic article is to represent reliable sources fairly and accurately, not to soapbox who is right and who is wrong—which appears to be what you are railing about here. Your characterizations that it's an argument regarding
 * race being a social construct or genetic reality with no room for the basic fact that our modern notion of race is a social construct regardless of much later biology for or against; and that
 * genetic differences along clines which include intersections with "racial" boundaries or race as a correlate to differences in biological response prove the biological reality of distinct races in line with societal constructs of race based on external physical differences—those racial boundaries also being the boundaries of most significant genetic differences between populations;
 * are what is at issue here. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 15:36, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Jeepers, Vecrumba, you sound like a broken record with your "clines." It doesn't matter how many times you repeat yourself in infinite variation in monomaniacal response to my large, varied corpus of alternate opinions, it is obvious that you will not countenance any opinion other than your own. You refuse to answer my main point that there are many legitimate geneticists and biologists who disagree with your point of view. Instead, you repeated fall back on your “cline” mantra, or the “social construct” chant. I even gave you an exquisitely detailed account of the genetic variations by race of many peoples by genetic markers and you completely ignore all of this in order to harp once again on your idée fixe. Let me repeat myself: It is not editing to ignore a major element of the subject being covered because you disagree with it. It is not editing to assert in 27 flavors that you have the final answer and therefore, everyone else is not only wrong, but not to be heard.

The purpose of this discussion page is not to allow you to enforce your viewpoint above all others. It is to air various viewpoints in order to give a balance rendering of the field. I have proven as much as is possible on these pages that right or wrong, many, many biologists and geneticists disagree with your “cline” approach to dismissing race in humans. You seem to think that any thoughts on thus subject held as long ago as the 1990’s are a priori false as being dated. You didn’t notice, or ignored, my two more recent references—but you were as silent on those as you are silent on ALL evidence I have provided to show that there is NO agreed-upon POV on this subject. It turns out that the field is sharply divided on the subject of race as it applies to humans. Ignoring these divisions because the concept of race is offensive to you and has been grievously abused in the past, as you are consciously or unconsciously doing--does not make the argument go away, or make it right.

It is your duty as an editor to let that substantiated and substantial alternate point of view be heard, whether you disagree with it or not. My offer to write it still stands. What say you?Tholzel (talk) 19:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * @Tholzel-You are wrong because you are not relying on reliable sources as the basis of your claims or arguments here. Where you do cite reliable sources you've misinterpreted or misapplied them. And those that you've identified that do seem to support your interpretation are not reliable sources, such as the "Manifesto for Racial Purity" tract you linked here.  To illustrate, here is a quotation from one of these you've linked in support of your position:
 * "When we are compared to many other kinds of animals, it is remarkable how little variation exists within our own species. There is 2-3 times more genetic variation among chimpanzees, 8-10 times more among orangutans, and thousands of times more in many insect species. Most biological anthropologists would agree that human variation is not now sufficient to warrant defining separate biological races, varieties, or sub-species. "
 * The primary research studies you've identified are not answering the question whether race is a valid biological taxonomy instead of a culturally defined population. Because all humans are so similar genetically, with most alleles found in varying frequencies in all human populations, the researchers are exploring highly sophisticated statistical methods to tease measurable differences from the genome.  They are attempting to find evidence in the human genome to trace the out-of-africa migration widely accepted even by most "race is a social construct" scientists.  The fact that there are so few genetic differences is the driver behind the development of such sensitive statistical tools.  It is also a fact that the exaggeration of small genetic differences was once used to taxonomically assign human "races" to different biological species, sub-species, etc historically.  So it's important not to exaggerate or imply the genetic distances measured have taxonomic significance absent reliable sources making those claims. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I am amazed that guys like you who apparently can write, can't read. Or maybe it's that you can't think. How many times are you going to repeat yourselves that your theory is right and everyone else is wrong? (Oops, I mean "WRONG." That is not an argument—that is simple bullying. How many times are you going to totally ignore (or tendentiously nit-pick) any counter-evidence. Guess what, NO CARES WHAT YOUR OPINION IS! OR MINE! What readers of Wikipedia want to learn is what the many jostling opinions are that surround this contentious subject. They are not looking for ideological purity you seek to give them; they are looking to see the whole scope of this tumultuous issue.

Because of its terrible WW-II history, any racial classification of humans is a highly volatile, contentious ideological subject. This emotional overlay often obliterates neutral opinions about any expression of genetics that even dares suggest that there is such a thing as race. Nevertheless, racial differences are real, as many scientists, especially those in the medical field believe. Yet you resolutely refuse to give any ink to the many, many geneticists and biologists who are not held in thrall to your version of the subject. Why do you tell me not to argue the issue on this discussion page—and then turn right around and argue your own point of view in order to put me down? Usually by two-sentence examples that you feel demolish my 1000-word recitation of counter opinion by peer-reviewed scientists.

You keep bringing up the fact that there are “so few genetic differences” between humans who nevertheless exhibit enormous physical differences. Well, what are you trying to say? That there are no differences because your genetic mumbo-jumbo tells you so? No differences between black skin, yellow skin, red skin and white skin, between an average height of 6-1/2 feet Tutsi and 3-1/2 foot pigmies? No difference between the barrel chests and vital capacity of Tibetans and lesser lung size of Europeans? Perhaps you ought to question whether your brand of genetics needs some fine tuning. Of course when I offer a genetic marker accounting that does identify these differences, you turn a complete blind eye, bringing up some fake objection (it was written in the past century!) and glide right over the issue which obviously complete eviscerate the point you are trying to jam down the throats of Wiki readers.

ALL your objections have been characterized by avoiding addressing ANY substantive point I make which shows that there are many many geneticists who are able to identify genetic markers that identify peoples by race. You then repeat in one variation or the other your own opinion that either no such geneticists exist, or they are disqualified from being heard because their papers are not peer reviewed (when they were you ignored them), their opinions have been superseded by others who you have selected, or, the catch all phrase, my sources are “Not reliable.”

It is sure easy to see whose opinions are “reliable”--those who your select. And then you have the chutzpah to suggest that I am offering nothing but opinion.

Since I have proven by scores of examples that there are many, many biologists and geneticists who believe that humans can be scientifically classified by race, pleases tell me what reason you have to censor them just because you—presumably not either a biologist or geneticist-- personally disagree with that opinion.Tholzel (talk) 00:26, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's time to move on, Tholzel. You complained we have ignored your references because we disagree with them.  I answered your complaint, explaining you've taken too much liberty with those citations which qualify as reliable sources, and those that are not reliable sources (as defined by WP:RS) cannot be used anywhere on wikipedia.  Belaboring your own conspiracy theories about what's wrong around here won't change anything. So to wrap this up, the discussion should be closed. And any further rantings will be removed. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Regretfully, there's nothing else to add to Professor marginalia's assessment and advice. Never argue with a missionary that there are other religions—and that is without even considering the relative merits of belief systems. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 02:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Tholzel: "You are cherry picking quotes and baldly asserting I'm wrong." Professor Marginalia: "Tholzel, you are wrong." {inserts cherry picked POV matching quote from Tholzel's sources}

Here's a few quotes the "Professor" overooked:

"The .133% genetic difference between the English and Nigerian populations is 8.3% as large as the genetic difference between humans and chimpanzees. The .061% genetic difference between the English and Japanese or Korean populations is 3.8% as large as the genetic difference between humans and chimpanzees. Seen in this context, these are very significant genetic differences. "

From Nature:"Data from many sources have shown that humans are genetically homogeneous and that genetic variation tends to be shared widely among populations. Genetic variation is geographically structured, as expected from the partial isolation of human populations during much of their history. Because traditional concepts of race are in turn correlated with geography, it is inaccurate to state that race is "biologically meaningless." "

From Dawkins: "We can happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes in forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn’t mean that race is of ‘virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance’. This is Edward’s point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance. "

Please bear in mind these are apex biological sources, unike the dubious pseudo-politico "scientists" used to write the article. BT35 (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, this: "Belaboring your own conspiracy theories about what's wrong around here won't change anything. So to wrap this up, the discussion should be closed. And any further rantings will be removed." is gross incivility and should be reported. BT35 (talk) 15:45, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * At the risk of feeding trolls and socks, no editor here is arguing for the homogeneity of the human race, nor that external racial characteristics don't correlate to geographical origin or differences driven by adaptation, etc. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 17:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * "At the risk of feeding trolls and socks" Excuse me?
 * "no editor here is arguing for the homogeneity of the human race, nor that external racial characteristics don't correlate to geographical origin or differences driven by adaptation" So you agree that race is a meaningful and extant operationalized biological variable, as confirmed by top biological sources. That's good. My question now is why the article tries to imply otherwise using fringe/non biological sources. Also, can you source your assertion that differences are just "external"? That's of secondary importance. BT35 (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Dawkins is a popularizer, not a specialist, making general claims. McCulloch is not only not a biologist or anthropologists, he IS a noted White Supremacist, who is using data from human populations - populations, not races - to make spurious statistical claims in order to further his own political agenda.  Yes, I am feeding a troll and a sock but hopefully for the last time.  Socks can be reverted on sight, and talk pages are not for soap-boxing, which can also be reverted. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 19:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Why are you removing my comments? I will report this to the authorities. Dawkins is popularizing the view of A. W. F. Edwards, a specialist. Interestingly the view is exactly the same, the fact that it's been "popularized" has no implications for it's veracity. I just thought that Dawkins may be easier for you to understand, and better for Wikipedia, where science is made easy to understand for the public. That is what you do here, right? And, yes, McCulloch is white supremacist, actually I didn't know that when I checked the link. I guess for this reason consensus will be that his indisputable statement of fact can be dismissed a priori. However, again we're in the interesting situation where his statement can be confirmed in the peer reviewed literature: "For example, when the analysis includes only humans, FST = 0.119, but adding the chimpanzees increases it only a little, FST = 0.183.", so we can source it from here. I notice you have no aspersions to cast on the credibility or character of the writers of the reference from Nature, do you admit that it contradicts the main thrust of this article, and is a mainstream source for biological views? BT35 (talk) 12:59, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW a race is a type of population. It's disturbing that someone who doesn't appear to understand, or pretends not to understand, the elementary principles of population genetics, principles so elementary that the vast majority of the general public would be expected to know them, is given free rein on this article without being sanctioned. BT35 (talk) 13:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I notice Enric Naval has left me a message saying that what I wrote above is a "rant". I find this difficult to understand, my tone is entirely calm and reasonable, and aimed at improving the article. Enric also complains that I did not suggest specific improvements. This is because the article is so bad that I must begin by outlining the overall problem as I see it. Anybody reading the article would be left with the impression that biologists had abandoned the concept of race. In reality, most of them have not. I am worried that you do not consider this a problem that needs to be a addressed. Nevertheless, I will review the article and find some more specific changes. Thanks you for your hospitality. BT35 (talk) 18:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Additionally, Enric threatened that if I keep commenting I will be "topic banned" by the "arbitration enforcement board" for "causing disruption in an article that is under discretionary sanctions". Let me assure everybody that my intent is not to cause disruption, but simply to steer this article towards the state of the art in science. BT35 (talk) 18:29, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Edwards' views are provided in the article, so there is no point in arguing the matter. As for the general issue: biologists who study other species may use the term race freely, but biologists who focus on H. sapiens generally do not, unless they are referring to research where people self-identified their race - and self-identification is a social fact, not a natural fact.  No one disputes that there is genetic and phenotypic variation among humans; one question is what language is most precise and clear for analyzing such variation, especially on a global scale - and the article goes into this in quite some depth.  But biology is a broad field that studies all organisms.  The academic discipline that specializes on H. sapiens is anthropology, and the view that race is a social construction among these specialists is even more widely held than it is about evolutionary biologists or molecular geneticists who study humans.  So it is to be expected that this article will reflect this majority view. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 20:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Without commenting about who's right on the content, I don’t think you should have been unilaterally removing his comments from the talk page. Yes, he should have been more specific about what changes he wanted made to the article, but you have to give newbies some time to learn how to be helpful here. The SPI about him determined that he isn’t a sockpuppet, so he has as much right to comment here as anyone else.Boothello (talk) 23:26, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously I agree with you - this is precisely why I responded to his comment, rather than reverting it. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 13:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I notice in the wiki article on global warming, also a politically contentious issue, the editors had the decency to include a reference to alternate theories (e.g. Hendrik Svensmark's theory that variations in the sun's cosmic-ray output--not human pollution--affects cloud cover, and thus the earth's temperature), unlike this forum, where not even a single reference is permitted to sully the purity of their politically correct interpretation of human races.[tholzel] 68.28.105.229 (talk) 16:13, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * This is getting stupid. You obviously haven't read the article. The first 50 percent describe different biological theories and there is even a table describing them. If you have nothing substantial to add to this discussion please don't continue to waste our time. Read the article, read sources. Suggest how to improve the article. ·Maunus· ƛ · 16:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 50% my ass. Count up the "social construct" vs. "first order approximation of a biological phenomenon" (yes it's that simple) sentences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.40.189.186 (talk) 18:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Notwithstanding the interminable waffle about "Race is not a subspecies", "Race is not a clade", "Race is not a {insert every possible biological category that nobody ever thought race was}". A simple affirmation will suffice. Explain what race is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.40.189.186 (talk) 19:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC) (Shift change--pulling out the recognized puppets as they go marching by.) Professor marginalia (talk) 22:25, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well as Maunus said, if you think the article needs to give more coverage to the biological view of race, please provide specific ways to improve it. Even if this is the case, the article will still need to be improved one step at a time.Boothello (talk) 19:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The best way to start improving this article would be to cut some things. I'd start with "Race/Subspecies". A short discussion of why races are not considered supspecies. "Subspecies as Clade" is strictly irrelevant, I'd cut that right out. Overall, there's some useful stuff here, but arranged pretty randomly, some things in the wrong place/not relevant to the section heading. Some really poor wording too. A rethink of article structure may be the way to go. QuintupleTwist (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with that. The best way to handle controversial topics is often to give brief treatments avaoiding too much detail and simply describing the different views on their own terms without putting them into dialogue with arguments for an against since this tends to be never ending. I also think the clade stuff is irrelevant - the literature doesn't discuss that problem much at all.·Maunus· ƛ · 20:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Also the subheading "Subspecies as genetically differentiated populations", which then goes on to discuss Races as genetically differentiated populations, using the term "population" as an apparent superset euphemism for race. Pretty odd. The definitions of "population" and "race" used in each study should be clarified. QuintupleTwist (talk) 22:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I think this muddle is the result of uncoordinated editing. Now is a good time to try to sort this out.  First of all, "Subspecies as genetically differentiated populations" is a misnomer - and it is too long.  The F(st) is a concept in population genetics, and part of this section can be rewritten and condensed to a short paragraph about debates among population geneteticsts about the degree of genetic variation within a population relative to variation among all humansa ... this is separate from Mayr's 9and others) attempts to use populations as races which certainly does merit its own sextion.


 * Secondly, there are current atempts by people to use the concept of genetic distance as a way to deine races, drawing on data from the Human Genome project. This should not be confused by Sewal's original work with the idea.  All the content regarding this probably belongs in the "Race as cladistics" secion"  This section describes the view of race-as-lineage made appealing because of breakthroughs in molecular genetics.  The stuff on the Wright-Sewall index is an attempt to delineate lineages through genetics - this is use of molecular genetic data and very different from "race as population." I must differ with Maunus about the clade stuff, because I think most current efforts to reinscribe race attempt to use molecular genetics data (including Calli Sforza) are versions of cladistics.  Or we can have "lineage models" and make cladistics one subsection and this other stuff another subsection.  If anything we need to work to make this section clearer. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 21:07, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I should add that another problem right now is that the historical section has been emasculated - it is no longer a discussion of historical concepts of race but rather a very short essay on the debate over two ways of interpreting racialmixture in America - it i wierd. A historical section whould discuss what are later referred to as "essentialist" notions of race that developed between the 17th and 19th centuries.  20th century research can then go through the taxanomic approach (race as morphological) and the cladistic approach (using genomic data).  The section on "population" can include some discussion of attempts by Mayr and others to define races as populations, and why some anthropologists take this approach and others do not.  Then the summary of views later on would make more sense - and the first half of the article would make more sense too. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 21:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that "Subspecies as genetically differentiated populations" should be renamed. "Races as genetically differentiated populations"?
 * I'm surprised that anyone is applying cladistics to human races. Do you have a ref which discusses that? QuintupleTwist (talk) 22:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The only one that I know of that applies cladistics directly is this one which is none-the-less rebutted by this one  - and also this one  which is not however clearly in favor of the usefulness of the approach to exploring "race". Another interesting one might be this one: ·Maunus· ƛ · 23:54, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting, thanks. The first one does try to apply cladistics to race, in a rather theoretical and tentative manner. This stuff seems a bit out there, but it provides some justification for the section. The Templeton paper is about applying cladistics to haplotypes, and doesn't really mention human races. QuintupleTwist (talk) 14:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, then, as I suggested, have a section Race as lineage and incorporate into it the current section on race as cladistics, as well as any material using Sewal-Wright to map genetic distance using human genome data, and material on molecular genetics' use of lineages.


 * Concepts and Realities of Race should, as the links suggests, be historical. This sentence, "Many anthropologists believe that race, as a societal phenomenon, should be analyzed as a cultural construct independent of biological or genetic variation." and everything following it just doesn't belong here, it belongs in the section on race as a social construction.  What should belong here is I propose the following:
 * The word "race", along with many of the ideas now associated with the term, were products of European imperialism and colonization during the age of exploration. (Smedley 1999) As Europeans encountered people from different parts of the world, they speculated about the physical, social, and cultural differences among various human groups. The rise of the Atlantic slave trade, which gradually displaced an earlier trade in slaves from throughout the world, created a further incentive to categorize human groups in order to justify the subordination of African slaves. (Meltzer 1993)  Drawing on Classical sources and upon their own internal interactions &mdash; for example, the hostility between the English and Irish was a powerful influence on early thinking about the differences between people (Takaki 1993) &mdash; Europeans began to sort themselves and others into groups associated with physical appearance and with deeply ingrained behaviors and capacities. A set of folk beliefs took hold that linked inherited physical differences between groups to inherited intellectual, behavioral, and moral qualities. (Banton 1977) Although similar ideas can be found in other cultures (Lewis 1990; Dikötter 1992), they appear not to have had as much influence upon their social structures as was found in Europe and the parts of the world colonized by Europeans. However, often brutal conflicts between ethnic groups have existed throughout history and across the world.


 * The first post-Classical published classification of humans into distinct races seems to be François Bernier's Nouvelle division de la terre par les différents espèces ou races qui l'habitent ("New division of Earth by the different species or races which inhabit it"), published in 1684. According to philosopher Michel Foucault, theories of both racial and class conflict can be traced to 17th century political debates about innate differences among ethnicities. In England radicals such as John Lilburne emphasised conflicts between Saxon and Norman peoples. In France Henri de Boulainvilliers argued that the Germanic Franks possessed a natural right to leadership, in contrast to descendants of the Gauls. In the 18th century, the differences among human groups became a focus of scientific investigation (Todorov 1993). Initially, scholars focused on cataloguing and describing "The Natural Varieties of Mankind," as Johann Friedrich Blumenbach entitled his 1775 text (which established the five major divisions of humans still reflected in some racial classifications, i.e., the Caucasoid race, Mongoloid race, Ethiopian race (later termed the Negroid race), American Indian race, and Malayan race).   From the 17th through the 19th centuries, the merging of folk beliefs about group differences with scientific explanations of those differences produced what one scholar has called an "ideology of race" (Smedley 1999). According to this ideology, races are primordial, natural, enduring and distinct. It was further argued that some groups may be the result of mixture between formerly distinct populations, but that careful study could distinguish the ancestral races that had combined to produce admixed groups.


 * Then, following sections should discuss races as taxonomic (morphological approaches), race as lineage (cladistics and clusters and lineages proposed using human-genomic data). Then the discussion of clines and populations will make more sense, as well as a discussion of Mayr's attempt to redefine race as population. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 11:20, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I think you may have gone a bit overboard associating the attempt to classify people biologically with slavery and conflict. QuintupleTwist (talk) 14:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It is not what I think, it is what historians think. Foucault is definitely a significant view, but not the only one.  The first paragraph provides several citations.  This is about presenting significant views from reliable sources.  I have another citation or two I can add, when I am next at my office.  In the meantime since there are no other objections, and this material does what the section is for, I will add the above.  The bottom line is I see two reasons for this: first, some people still hold to the essentialist view of race, so this view should be represented.  Second, anyone who holds that race is "socially constructed" mean that it is also historically constructed, and this piece of this history is an essential part of the story as to how race was socially constructed in the modern era. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 12:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * My edit removed material on social construction versus genetic views of race - but the introduction already introduces this dbate, and the debate is covered in detail later in the article. We should have a detailed explanation of how population geneticists view human variation in one section, and a detailed section on how most scholars now view race as a social construction in another section, and not keep repeating the same arguments.  If anyone feels I deleted important material I would urge them to consider (1) making sure it is summarized in the introduction and (2) then restoring it, but later on in the article, in its proper context. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 12:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Re: "The word "race", along with many of the ideas now associated with the term, were products of European imperialism and colonization during the age of exploration." This is not a consensus viewpoint. "Some argue that ‘race’ emerged relatively recently, in the 17th century with the rise of modern science in Europe, and was deeply influenced by the social-political context of the time (e.g., Montagu, 1972; Fredrickson, 2001). Others claim that the concept was elaborated already in Antiquity (e.g., Snowden, 1983; Sarich and Miele, 2005)." QuintupleTwist (talk) 10:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Houston--we have a problem. “…some evidence suggests that neophytes are being put off by Wikipedia’s clique of elite editors. One study by researchers at Xerox’s Palo alto Research Center looked at the number of times editorial changes were subsequently reversed. It found that roughly a quarter of the edits posted by occasional contributors were undone in late 2008, compared with less than 2% of those posted by the most active editors. And it noted that this gap has widened considerably over time.” The Economist, January 15th, 2011, p. 69.Tholzel (talk) 00:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * NO!!!!!!! You mean editing Wikipedia is something one can get better at if one does it a lot? And those who have done it a lot and gotten better at it tend to be reverted less often that those who haven't yet? Say not so! The injustice!! The inequity!!! Does Jimbo know about this????
 * By the way, do you have anything to say about editing Race (classification of humans), which is what this talk page is for? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:31, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Do I have anything to say about editing the Race article you ask? Good Lord, where have you been? Have you tried reading this discussion page? I have tried to add peer-reviewed sources, some from Stanford University, which present the other side of the argument that cannot say its name--at least not here. Each time my suggestions have been trivialized with a reasoning that pretty much proves that ration will never trump ideology. What is so irksome about the "elite editors" who control all input to this subject is is their reflexive rejection of all opinion that does not agree with theirs, no matter how "reliable" it is. What is so disgusting is the lofty pretense they maintain that there is plenty of the other side being displayed--and then they demolish every inkling of it. And the reasons given. How grown men can make such claims of impartiality boggles the mind (my mind, at least).

Why, in an article on the biology of race, do the editors rush so quickly to the Negro slave trade in America? What in God's name does that social aberration have to do with biology? And the editors can't help themselves in constantly coming back to racial injustice. Yes, that is a serious subject, but it has nothing to do with the classification of humans by race. The final prevarication is the feigned agreement on these pages that, of course human races can be easily if not perfectly discerned, it's just that we won't actually permit such a line of discussion, no matter how well-sourced.

Any other questions?Tholzel (talk) 22:29, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, Tholzel. It's unlikely you identified your so-called "peer reviewed Stanford University" sources after consulting them yourself.  You copy-pasted the references, second-hand, complete with inaccurately recorded dates and misspelled authorship.  Neither of them in the original offer any conclusions about Race classifications.  Genomic variation patterns in and among populations is not definitionally equivalent to race. (The rejection by scientists of the concept of "race" in biology in favor of "populations" and "clines" means that the source itself or other suitably reliable references need to make any such links or associations. Wikipedians cannot do it for them.)
 * If you have a good argument for how to use those references here, then start a new thread and present your case. But ranting about how "ration will never trump ideology" here, or about what the Economist has to say about the editing climate on wikipedia won't help your argument at all. And this thread is a mess and should be allowed to die. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:21, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Professor marginalia (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Sexual selection
There are concerns that the article Sexual selection in human evolution has been overly racialized. Input from anyone interested in the subject is welcome. Wapondaponda (talk) 01:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In the section "Concepts and realities of race", the last paragraph contains the sentences:

"Among the very first American colonists, African entrepreneurs who had arrived as laborers engaged in society and commerce on an equal footing, with equal rights, as Europeans — and with similar attitudes.[22] The Enlightenment, in the 18th century, institutionalized the concept of humans as unequals, with blacks placed as the lowest of the races in the Great Chain of Being.[35]"

Given the two sentences in context of each other, the text seems to imply that the 'concept of humans as unequals' and the basis of 'the Great Chain of Being' originated with 'The Enlightenment'. When I read the two sentences as they are, my first thought was 'Really?!', before following both links to 'Enlightenment' and 'Great Chain of being' to discover absolutely no correlation of detail between the two articles.

Arguably, while some (or even many) 'Enlightenment period thinkers and leaders' may have sought to apply the best scientific argument of the time in order to ratify what is clearly an older theological concept, associating the entire philosophical movement directly with the rise of commercially sustained inequality is a bit provocative, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AllixHD (talk • contribs) 16:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * No one said the Enlightenment met our current day standard for enlightened behavior. Enlightenment begat Great Chain of Being begat the order of things: God and angels at the top, man with some men on atop other men, all the way down to the worms and rocks. It's where the inequality of blacks as compared to whites came from&mdash;being different is one thing, being different meaning superior or inferior, that was new. "Commercially sustained?" If you mean exploitation of people according to their race for personal profit, well yes, Enlightenment did give direct rise to that circumstance&mdash;one which clearly did not exist prior to our being enlightened by Enlightenment. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 22:03, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Load of rubbish
"Race refers to classifications of humans into populations or groups based on various factors, such as their culture, language, social practice or heritable characteristics"

This is nothing but illogical -bordering on the utterly retarded- racialization.

Using this definition, EVERY group in existance, is a "race" as long as they excercise their ideas in any way whatsover. (social practice) Thus, Liberals & Conservaties are races and political systems involving parties are built on racial apartheid. And what about language then? So every english speaking person is of the same race? What about multi-lingual persons? What are they, "hybrids"? Culture? Ok, so emo-kids for instance, constitute a "race" then.. Christians are a race?

And what about the implications when it comes to racism: With this definition, it migt constitute racism to critizise a culture, a political group, a sub-culture etc.

I think you get the picture. In short, This definition is nothing but laughable. No offence, but only a COMPLETE MORON would call any group a race based on their social practice, language or culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.227.176.140 (talk) 10:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. There should be a disclaimer that this article, while mostly discussing biological phenomenon, is sourced almost entirely to the most extremist egalitarian social anthropologists for biological views, which they are entirely unqualified to assert, and even then cherry picks the most extreme quotes. Try to change it though, and you'll get smeared and banned. Cadada (talk) 18:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC) sock


 * Our idea of race is based on differences in appearance (heritable characteristics) and inevitable differences in customs et al. reflecting geographic diversity. The very recent debate (compared to the existence of the notion of race) regarding genetics is another topic and a subject of debate among geneticists regarding meaningful differences, statistical interpretation of differences, and so on. The article reflects both. And do put the moronometer (that's mo-ro-KNOW-me-ter, as in you know better because we're morons) away. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 18:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have changed the definition to better focus on the issue of appearance which I think there is general consensus even among extremist egalitarian anthropologists is part of what distinguishes race from e.g. ethnicity. ·Maunus· ƛ · 19:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, that's an improvement. What about the other 99% of the article. Cadada (talk) 19:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC) sock
 * The remainder of the article is rather slanted in the opposite direction.·Maunus· ƛ · 19:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The whole article ignores the gene frequency concept which is how biologists view race. To maintain the race denying strawman which is based on ignoring gene frequencies you need to reference sociologists misrepresenting biology such as Lieberman or Smedley or fringe vested biologists like Graves and Keita, which is who this article is based on. Add a healthy dose of Lewontin's fallacy for good measure. I don't know if you're aware of the fraud, maybe your career depends on pushing this stuff maybe you really just don't get biology. But let me assure you that it's a fraud. Oh well time for me to be banned I suppose. Cadada (talk) 19:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC) sock

Appearance is not always a determining factor in identifying race. With all due respect to Maunus, i think a better edit would be: "Race refers to classifications of humans into populations or groups based on various factors, depending on the time, place, and group in qustion, such as their culture, language, social practice or heritable characteristics". As for Cada-yad-yada-yada's rant (a very good immitation of the dearly departed Mikemikev, which tells you something, I mean, pragmatically), I think we can pretty much disregard comments here that are expliclty anti-intellectual POV-pushing. By the way, the article shouldn't be slanted in any direction; our standard is always to provide all significant views from reliable sources in proportion to their significance (which I do believe we do fairly well). Slrubenstein  |  Talk 19:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know of a source that supports the inclusion of e.g. "language" as a determining factor of race in any context. The source currently given also doesn't. Even the AAA's race website talks about race in terms of visible characteristics, but also showing that this is not the only factor and that it is always mitigated by socioeconomic and cultural factors. The previous definition made it impossible to distinguish race from an "ethnic category" in the terms of Handleman - there is something that is distinguished race from ethnic categories - and it is the fact it is usually an intersection of visible characteristics, inherited status (not in the sense of genetic) and socio-economic class. Denying this is is not in line with sources and I don't know of any anthropological literature that doesn't see race and ethnicity to have different implications in this sense. When someone say something that makes sense I react without considering whether those who say it are otherwise acting as idiots as in this case. ·Maunus· ƛ · 19:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * @Cadada, Anthropologists quote biology only as/where it agrees with their view of race, they do not "misrepresent" it. Even if there were universal agreement on conclusive proof of race = the most significant (and meaningfully significant with regard to processes within the human body) genetic differences between peoples (beyond external appearance), anthropologists would still argue&mdash;correctly&mdash;that race is (that is, originated as) a social construct. There is no conflation or confusion or preferring or ignoring of anthropology versus biology. Really, folks, let's give the evil ultra-leftist uber-egalitarian anthropologists perverting biology to deny the biological/genetic basis for race mantra a rest. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 20:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't post here often any more because of what I see as far too much of the title of this section throughout the whole article and discussion, and as soon as someone uses a term like ultra-leftist to condemn those with whom he disagrees, it confirms my judgement. HiLo48 (talk) 21:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Assuming you're responding to me, just to be clear, I'm not calling anyone an ultra-leftist, that is my characterization of the position taken by the most vociferous proponents (per those proponents) of the "anthropologists ignore biological reality (and never the twain shall meet)" position. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 21:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, apologies. I guess my irony meter wasn't properly calibrated today. I suspect you and I both see similar problems in these discussions. HiLo48 (talk) 21:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Please WP:DENY the trolling banned user the attention he craves. Resisting the urge to respond to him will help lessen problems with these discussions. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand the sentiment of that post, but fail to see the practicality of it. I don't know the "trolling banned user" and I fail to see what he did that was any worse than a lot of other rubbish here. No one person's extremism stood out. Your troll's first post in this section was to agree with someone who is presumably acceptable. From my perspective many people with extreme views have had a go at this article and added to discussion here. So how do I pick the trolls so I can ignore them? HiLo48 (talk) 23:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)I apologize if you felt singled out. My advice was primarily intended to those who do recognize the socks but can't resist responding to them.   But to keep things from getting out of hand again in these articles, we need to step up the talk page discipline a notch or two when it comes to the rants and soapboxing regardless of the source. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

To reply to Maunus: I did not mean to suggest that "race" os never or even seldome involving physical appearance. I only meant to say that sometimes it isn't. The Romans used the word for race (the latin word that became the root for race) to refer to something that did not depend on physical appearance. Nor did I mean to privilege language, a term I never personally added to the article and have no stake in. What distinguishes race from ethnicity is a complex issue - Brubaker and Cooper's "Beyond Identity" in Theory and Society 29: 1-47, 2000 nis my favorite essay on the topic but it is only one view among many. I agree with Eric Wof that races emerged along with the massive relocation of continental populations during the mercantilist period, whereas ethnicities developed during the process of the consolidation of national identities and th migration of peoples (within a state or from one state to another) during the capitalist phrase. I am just pointing out that there are a variety of approaches. I do not think we need to go into it in detail here. I never meant to eliminate reference to physical appearance, only to emphasize that whatever are markers of racial identity depnd on particular regimes of race and these have changed over time as well as vary from one place to antoher, which I think is th key point. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 00:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thinking-out-loud-non-sequitur, I think it's fair to say that, historically, endogamy has maintained and strengthened both racial and ethnic identity, ethnic largely being finer divisions of identity but also linked to custom, physical appearance, et al. Race or ethnic group--both are how others see us and how we see others. And, recalling the identification of the "Irish gene" some years ago now, who is to say there are not biological patterns among ethnic groups which match those among racial groups (hmmm... I think I shall invent a new term, "fractal heritability.") Now there's some WP:OR for you. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 20:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. 20th-21st century mobility has shot that all to hell of course, for the worse where we are losing ethnic groups, for the better where ethnic identity becomes less a factor in a desire to kill rival ethnic groups. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 20:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This is an excellent and salient point. Tibor Koertvelyessy (a population geneticist) published a paper analyzing genetic differences between two groups in Hungary (or maybe Romania?) and argued that th best evidence indicates that genetic differences between the populations were the effects of cultural differences between the two groups that discouraged intermarriage between them. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 16:38, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I see it's been changed and I agree until this part: "also often influenced by and correlated with traits such as culture, ethnicity and socio-economic status."

Really? Your race is influenced by and relates to your socio-economic status or your culture? Can anyone explain to me how your "heritable phenotypical characteristics or geographic ancestry" can be influenced by or correlate with your socio-economic status (in itself! It might come to correlate with that through racial discrimination or an apartheid system, but that's another story entirely) or even your culture for that matter.. does your race somehow change if you embrace another culture?

Just pick a definition and stick with it. How could non-hereditary characteristics ever influence (or "correlate" with) hereditary ones? Is someone saying that your socio-economic potential and cultural preferences depend on your racial heritage? Sounds more like eugenics than a definition of the term race.. My suggestion, use the simplest and most widely accepted defintition: "Race refers to classifications of humans into populations or groups based on factors such as heritable phenotypical characteristics or geographic ancestry." This is the "normal" definition and it makes sense, unlike the one in the article. 90.227.176.140 (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Good luck trying to get some sense in here.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.163.156.30 (talk) 19:14, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope they locked it. Looks like the jumped up sociologists who apparently know more biology than biologists will be writing this one. This "encyclopedia" is a joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.189.26.144 (talk) 13:53, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Rather than "this encyclopedia is a joke", I would say that this encyclopedia has as much trouble with controversial subjects as the rest of society. Most of Wikipedia is great. Topics like race, unfortunately, bring out the barrow-pushing bigots, just as they do in other forums, online and offline. I watch articles like this, but rarely contribute. I will jump on obvious new garbage with a simple response, but have learnt to accept that it's going to take a long time for articles like this one to reach maturity. HiLo48 (talk) 21:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * For perspective a link to what the Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about race might be illuminating: ·Maunus· ƛ · 22:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe we have an expert in the house - and one who is in a unique position to bridge between psychological and anthropological views .·Maunus· ƛ · 18:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Break-unrelated side issues

 * So, in other words, once again you refuse to answer the central question. Just as you have NEVER directly answered any objection I have made to the monotonous drumbeat of "race is a social construct." Instead, as usual, you toss up a peripheral objections asking (rhetorically, of course) how immediate is "immediate?" A classic refusal to come to grips with an issue you can't defend, but one you like just the same.


 * BTW, I notice that the article relies heavily (12 citations) on the American Anthropological Association (and the Current Anthropological Association )which lists as its credo on the subject:


 * "'Race' thus evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories. The myths fused behavior and physical features together in the public mind, impeding our comprehension of both biological variations and cultural behavior, implying that both are genetically determined. Racial myths bear no relationship to the reality of human capabilities or behavior. Scientists today find that reliance on such folk beliefs about human differences in research has led to countless errors."


 * Not much room for opposing opinions here. Why permit any argument at all when this "reliable source" states right up front that there is no such thing as race. Notice how deviously they slide from biology--which is actually never mentioned--to cultural behavior (!) which has never been the issue--except to social activists who cannot discuss race without immediately bringing up involuntary servitude, gross soical injustice, etc., etc.Tholzel (talk) 03:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * What is your "central question"? Don't spin off into a new tangent to pose a new "central question" about the AAA here; focus on the one "central question" as relates to race classification and the slave trade. What is it?  If it's not that it's been given "immediate" focus or that it's incorrectly placed in the "Early concepts" section, what is it? That it is mentioned anywhere period? If you have some objection about the many references to the AAA (and disapproving of their "credo" is not a substantive objection on wikipedia) start another thread for that discussion. Professor marginalia (talk) 04:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

O.K., here is my final "central question." Please add in edited (shortened) form, the following opinion on race by a respected forensic anthropologist. Dr. George W. Gill is a professor of anthropology at the University of Wyoming. He also serves as the forensic anthropologist for Wyoming law-enforcement agencies and the Wyoming State Crime Laboratory:


 * Position on race

Where I stand today in the "great race debate" after a decade and a half of pertinent skeletal research is clearly more on the side of the reality of race than on the "race denial" side. Yet I do see why many other physical anthropologists are able to ignore or deny the race concept. Blood-factor analysis, for instance, shows many traits that cut across racial boundaries in a purely clinal fashion with very few if any "breaks" along racial boundaries. (A cline is a gradient of change, such as from people with a high frequency of blue eyes, as in Scandinavia, to people with a high frequency of brown eyes, as in Africa.)

Morphological characteristics, however, like skin color, hair form, bone traits, eyes, and lips tend to follow geographic boundaries coinciding often with climatic zones. This is not surprising since the selective forces of climate are probably the primary forces of nature that have shaped human races with regard not only to skin color and hair form but also the underlying bony structures of the nose, cheekbones, etc. (For example, more prominent noses humidify air better.) As far as we know, blood-factor frequencies are not shaped by these same climatic factors.

So, serologists who work largely with blood factors will tend to see human variation as clinal and races as not a valid construct, while skeletal biologists, particularly forensic anthropologists, will see races as biologically real. The common person on the street who sees only a person's skin color, hair form, and face shape will also tend to see races as biologically real. They are not incorrect. Their perspective is just different from that of the serologist.

So, yes, I see truth on both sides of the race argument.

Those who believe that the concept of race is valid do not discredit the notion of clines, however. Yet those with the clinal perspective who believe that races are not real do try to discredit the evidence of skeletal biology. Why this bias from the "race denial" faction? This bias seems to stem largely from socio-political motivation and not science at all. For the time being at least, the people in "race denial" are in "reality denial" as well. Their motivation (a positive one) is that they have come to believe that the race concept is socially dangerous. In other words, they have convinced themselves that race promotes racism. Therefore, they have pushed the politically correct agenda that human races are not biologically real, no matter what the evidence.

Consequently, at the beginning of the 21st century, even as a majority of biological anthropologists favor the reality of the race perspective, not one introductory textbook of physical anthropology even presents that perspective as a possibility. In a case as flagrant as this, we are not dealing with science but rather with blatant, politically motivated censorship."

This small section will indicate to readers not only that there is current modern diagreement on the reality of measurable human racial differences, but also give an indication that the subject is encrusted with fierce ideological rather than bilogical differences.Tholzel (talk) 15:24, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I think we should rather cease to provide space for Tholzel's rants that are clearly not aimed at being productive or colaborative. If he wants to criticize the prevailing views about race in the AAA or any other professional organization he can start a blog.·Maunus· ƛ · 08:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know what he's aiming at, but it is not productive, I agree. Tholzel, you've wandered away on a whole new tangent again. Gill is already cited four times. Concept of race as used in forensic anthropology (Gill is a forensic anthropologist) is covered in the "Forensic anthropology" section. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Race classification and slave trade
Thanks, Professor, for once again refusing to acknowledge any point I try which suggests that a large percentage--probably a majority of biologists and geneticists--have no problem with categorizing humans into various races (as well as sub-races), and diverting the conversation to your usual variation on races don't exist because there are "clines" and "populations." Before you autocratically shut off my complaints once again, could you at least please answer a single question: Why does this article on the biology of race immediately give such prominent pride of place to the injustice of the Negro slave trade in America?Tholzel (talk) 15:45, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * "Immediately"? The slave trade isn't mentioned until the "Early modern concepts of race" section. It is common practice on wikipedia to cover the "history" or "background" content near the beginning of the article. This article, btw, is not about the biology of race.  The biology of race is one of many forms of race classification to cover here. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree we should cover the history of the concept. But the position that "race" in the sense of black, white etc. began with European colonialism and slavery is certainly disputed and some argue demonstrably false. I'm in the middle of reading Sarich and Miele, 2005, where they give a history of the concept with specific reference to the falsity of this claim. To assert it as fact is clearly a neutrality contravention. QuintupleTwist (talk) 18:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sarich and Miele aren't exactly mainstream anthropology.[onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.2005.107.3.551.1/abstract]·Maunus· ƛ · 16:53, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Whereas the blog you link to is? Does that blog contain a cogent argument that you understand? Can you explain it to me? QuintupleTwist (talk) 17:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "First, let’s do away with the qualifying phrase, “or groups of populations,” since to maintain the 85-15 number, race must exactly equal population, not groups of populations, which would reduce the proportion of variation attributable to races." Ludicrously, the author of that blog assumes that 85-15 is a constant feature of race/population (he confuses the terms), rather than a post-grouping measurement. Anyway, we're considering Sarich and Miele with reference to the history of the race concept, not genetics. QuintupleTwist (talk) 17:13, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The website belongs to professor of anthropology Jim Bindon - it isn't strictly speaking a blog. And yes it is mainstream anthropology. Sarich and Miele's book has been slaughtered in all mainstream reviews that I have read. (the first link is to a comment on the review in AA where the commentor says that the very critical review was to light on S&M). It is an argument against the notion that some people including Tholzel and Mikemikev have espoused that the existence of genetic difference between geographic populations shows that race is real - it doesn't because most people don't think of races in terms of mendelian populations - it is simply not what the word refers to - race and population are two distinct things. Belgians can be distincguished from bavarians by allele frequency - but even people who believe in biological races would not consider them to be distinct races. If you want to read about the development of ideologies of race as a result of colonialism I reccomend this book - which arguies very well that the difference between  western and other kinds of colonial imperialism was that only the western one was based on an ideology of race as the basis of human worth and rights, which stemmed originally from conflict between ethno-religious groupings in medieval europe but which was transfered instead to physical differences in the colonial process. This is pretty much mainstream stuff, although there are of course variations in the precise vision of how colonial contact between world populations prompted racial ideologies.·Maunus· ƛ · 17:29, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I overlooked this comment earlier. I agree with Maunus on this. Miele obviously wrote the sections relating to historical examples of race concepts.  Miele is not an historian, he's not an anthropologist, he's a journalist.  I see no evidence anywhere to indicate he's considered an notable authority on this. It's not serious academic oriented work. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:18, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * @QuintupleTwist-that wasn't the claim, here or in the reference, that noting physical characteristics of groups such as "black, white" etc never happened before European colonialism. The reference this was taken from is not talking about associating groups and their commonly shared physical features and it doesn't say that here.  In fact, the introductory paragraph to the discussion in the reference used says "Given our visual acuity and complex social relationships, humans presumably have always observed and speculated about the physical differences among individuals and groups. But different societies have attributed markedly different meanings to these distinctions." It's an ideology about race they're talking about, the interpretation that goes into it.  Here we are too vague what they're talking about. I'll take a closer look and offer some suggestions. Professor marginalia (talk) 04:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that European slave traders invented an ideology of race, other than the ancient "they're black babarians, we're civilized whites" (or vice versa depending on the time and place). Look forward to an explanation of what this ideology entailed, as it's news to me. Wonder if wikipedia readers will be aware that this section is about "the ideology of race" (which apparently is the race concept through the eyes of Atlantic slave traders, which began at the start of the Atlantic slave trade), rather than the ancient and universal concept of race. Which raises the further question, should it not be about the ancient and universal concept of race? QuintupleTwist (talk) 16:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no ancient and universal concept of race.·Maunus· ƛ · 16:55, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * But there is "an ideology of race". I'm still waiting to hear what it is. QuintupleTwist (talk) 17:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's in the linked reference. The ideology of race is the forming of social structures built upon folk beliefs linking "inherited physical differences between groups to inherited intellectual, behavioral and moral qualities", buttressed by "scientific" taxonomy. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:06, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * And it's not that European slave traders were the very first people in history to do this. They didn't "invent" race prejudice.  But that the concepts of race in the history of western science are rooted there.  (ie they weren't shaped by perspectives held in the ancient Indian caste system, etc.) Professor marginalia (talk) 18:29, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Frankly this article isn't about the esoteric concept of "the ideology of race", it's about the concept of race. Notwithstanding the fact that it's very hard to credit the idea that Johann Friedrich Blumenbach, when writing the main scientific treatment of human races from this period, was trying to justify slavery. Anyway, all I'm saying is that we have some sources claiming the modern concept originated from Euro colonizers, and claiming the modern lay concept is no different from the ancient concept, so I would suggest a less one sided treatment. QuintupleTwist (talk) 19:18, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * This article is about systems of Race classification. There are *many* to cover here.  That's the point.  And the modern "lay" concept is not found in antiquity nor is it one the authors of Race: Reality of Human Differences adopt either.  As Maunus explained, there has never been a universal concept of race, not in antiquity, not now.  The allusion to slavery comes from the NIH's National Human Genome Research Institute.  I don't know how important it is to mention it here, but it certainly doesn't warrant digressing into a debate over it in the article.  I'll survey other references to try to gauge what significance it may have.  But it's been in the article here for five long years now.  And Miele is just a skeptic journalist, a debunker, not a historian or authority in the subject. It's a heavily polemical book written for a general audience, uncited as far as I can tell to any content in it about ancient history. Not a strong reference, in other words. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

There is doubt that the lay concept of race was ever essentialist, other than in the Quixotic minds of a handful of scholars. I'm assuming that you mean the essentialist concept of race when you refer to the modern "lay" concept. This was certainly never the received view in science. Do you have a source which demonstrates this rather than simply assert it without argument?

This is disputed and should be balanced.

If we are to continue to refer to the "modern folk concept" we need to be clear exactly what it is and how it was demonstrated. The evidence I can see clearly refutes an essentialist view, at least in science. QuintupleTwist (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Sesardic is answering a claim (or two) made by Zack - it doesn't appear here at all. It's a bit of a strawman--we're not debating side issues surrounding the topic here. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Zack is making the same claim as Smedley, that the modern lay concept of race is essentialist and influenced by science, apparently asserted without evidence (I need to review Smedley), and presented in the article as the only view. We have several sources doubting that the modern lay concept is essentialist (Snowden, Sarich, Sesardich), and the only scientific work from the period referenced here explicitly states the exact opposite. I will review some of the sources in greater detail, and propose a solution. QuintupleTwist (talk) 11:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah--so it's Smedley under the microscope--again? Curious.  If you haven't consulted the references, it's a bit rash to argue it's "apparently asserted without evidence", isn't it? Professor marginalia (talk) 16:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't had a chance to read through Sesardić in detail yet—a significant part of his argument is over statistical interpretation, but that's another topic. The "influence of science" (without digging into the original references to determine what they actually said and meant) does date back to the more scientific view of the world which first led to the differentiation (superior/inferior) of humans based on race—before we knew anything about "biological differences" apart from taxonomies based on external appearances. Certainly no one argued justification of the slave trade based on dissecting cadavers and discovering whites and blacks were different on the inside. The objection to Smedley on the race topic seems to be that she is some sort of evangelist to be beaten down. Smedley eloquently represents mainstream anthropology, so let's get over it and move on.
 * Whether or not there is any biological basis for race today based on current genetic research and statistical interpretations (which have their own mainstream and fringe views) has NO bearing on where today's concept of race, and, particularly superiority/inferiority, originated. Let's leave that (appropriately) to the anthropologists and stop the WP:OR that anthropological and biological/genetic claims regarding race are somehow mutually exclusive. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 16:50, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect Peters, I think you have my motives and methods all wrong. I have not argued the history here from modern genetics, nor do I intend to. Additionally, I have no axe to grind against any individual scholar, but I'm just trying to establish a fair representation. I get the impression that the treatment given in "Early modern concepts of race" (shouldn't that be "History of the race concept"?) seems one sided, focuses on colonial Europe and America, and I would even go so far as to say seems designed give the impression that early modern Europeans are responsible for the phenomenon of ethnic conflict (!). A more neutral treatment could be based on this source:

I got hold of a copy of Smedley, and I'm going through it. It's well written, but at the same time I'm not sure Race In North America: Origin And Evolution Of A Worldview can give the wider historical and international context required here. Much of the section appears traceable to this text. Additionally this part

seems rather silly. I'm sure we could dredge up claims of ethnic supremacy for every ethnic group. But surprise, surprise, more wickedness from those mean old Europeans! Is it strictly necessary in an international history of the concept of race? QuintupleTwist (talk) 15:57, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * For example, we could take out the European stuff, and slot in this:




 * but wouldn't such blatant geocentrism seem odd? QuintupleTwist (talk) 17:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * (ec)?? Race classification, in the taxonomic sense in biology, is a European-American development shaped by European-American views and events. Neither Snowden nor Sarich and Miele describe an "elaborated concept of race classification" in the ancient world. And Snowden's book (even more narrowly focused geographically than Smedley btw) undermines the conclusions in Sarich and Miele, if anything.  The only thing they have in common is they cite examples of ancient peoples recognizing differences in skin color.  Could it be your interpretation of Snowden has been colored by Sarich and Miele?  It seems you're arguing against claims that don't exist in the article here. (eg "Often brutal conflicts between ethnic groups have existed throughout history and across the world.[36]") And the Foucault statement says the "theories" of these sorts of conflicts trace there (though we maybe should be more pointed in this part and cite it--it's summarized from Historical definitions of race).
 * Let's focus and wrap this up. You write, "Much of the section appears traceable to this text". Two sentences of the section total are traceable to the text, with two different cites to Smedley, both of them richly sourced.  Her conclusions were reaffirmed in the statement from the National Human Genome Research Institute also cited-I counted 14 authors there. Your view of the quality of Smedley's scholarship doesn't count.  Her work is taken very seriously by peers in the field, especially at the top levels. Another 3 authors are cited for content claims besides these 15.  It would take less than an hour to find 5 or 10 more--Maunus offered one (Greer), today you've lent 2 more (Montagu, Fredrickson).  Maunus and I both don't think Sarich and Miele's view of this is notable, for reasons already given.  Snowden is misapplied--I'm unclear how it can be said his book weighed in on this question at all.  The Sesardic cite offered earlier is no good as applied-it was synth and fringe-y, which he affirms in the text itself.  The claims you're objecting to have been included in this article for most of the last 5-6 years.  As per WP:UNDUE, very minor players like Sesardic and Miele don't warrant the space here for head-to-head challenges against the likes of Montagu, Frederickson, Smedley et al. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No comment on other points as yet but including the history of theories of European ethnic conflict in this section is absolutely superfluous. QuintupleTwist (talk) 21:15, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I've reverted your duplicating the Blumenbach quote in the article. It doesn't warrant repeating word-for-word twice, does it? And it was better situated in the "Races as social constructions" section where it discusses the arbitrariness involved in race classification. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)  Adding: And there its context is consistent with its context in Marks, the reference. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking about whether eliminating the viewepoint of Sarich, Miele, Sesardic and Štrkalj entirly in favor of the likes of Montagu, Frederickson, Smedley et al. is reasonable. Wouldn't that be FRINGE and not UNDUE? QuintupleTwist (talk) 13:19, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, that is not what Fringe and Undue policies cover - it would be against NPOV which requires that notable viewpoints be mentioned. The viewpoint of Sarich, Miele et al is already mentioned - but it is also mentioned that this is not the generally accepted viewpoint - this is the requirement put forth in FRINGE and UNDUE.·Maunus· ƛ · 14:19, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

How do you arrive at the generally accepted viewpoint? Not meaning to be confrontational but genuinely curious. The Štrkalj paper is most interesting as it surveys the international literature. It appears that the American viewpoint (race is not a scientific concept, race was socially constructed by Europeans to justify colonialism) is not shared in the rest of the world. For example in China Wang (2002, 2003) found that every (300+) paper published in China's leading anthropological jounal dealing with human genetic variation utilized the race concept. Another interesting quote I dredged up (doubt it's from a "reliable source" but I imagine it could be followed up)

Interestingly you can see that the Manchu are included here, who were of a different ethnicity (closer to the Japanese, linguistically and gentically) Per WP:CSB some mention should be made of the international view. With permission I'll put in some alternative views. QuintupleTwist (talk) 10:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Manchu isn't close to Japanese - Manchu is a tungusic language - Japanese is an isolate unrelated to any other family of languages.·Maunus· ƛ · 13:24, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The point was that Manchu is more similar to Japanese than Chinese. This is not debated. Whether Manchu, Korean and Japanese are a family or a sprachbund (or a coincidence) is debated. QuintupleTwist (talk) 13:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

SOAS's Frank Dikötter discusses the history of the race concept in China. QuintupleTwist (talk) 12:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

What word the Chinese use that is being translated as "race," and whether that word was used the same way before 1500s as it is used now, is an interesting question. I am not sure how patrilineality supports any particular racial ideology (or "concept"). The Romans had a word that classicists today translate as race, but it was not essentialist. Does this mean that the Roman concept of race was not essentialist, or does it mean that we should not translate that word as "race?" Slrubenstein  |  Talk 21:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Try reading the link. Don't know why you throw in "romans". QuintupleTwist (talk) 22:22, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Gordon
Someone tried to find out via WikiBlame, when "Gordon" was inserted into this article. It was difficult, but I've found it:. Regards, --Flominator (talk) 19:10, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

DNA profiling in law enforcement
I've edited and removed much of the discussing involving the use of racial DNA profiling in law enforcement. Lewontin's Fallacy does not belong-it's not a source for DNA use in crime investigation, and it is not a source for describing the kind of "cluster analysis" involved either. The use of such profiling was overstated-the article talks about a handful of anecdotal reports, and the only estimate cited was about 80 worldwide-and that number comes from the company selling the tests. Without better references reporting more solid or up-to-date estimates, we shouldn't imply this is in wide use or anything about its success rate. I removed "in one case phenotypic characteristics suggested that the friends and family of an unidentified victim would be found among the Asian community" - the claim made little sense, one, no claim was made about the "phenotype" in the source, two, and three, why are we describing in any detail this one unusual and isolated criminal investigation?

Describing the use of the term BGA instead of race is a can of worms in itself. I removed the first claim as unsourced--the patent application is not a valid source for this. And I removed the remainder as both unsourced and potentially undue weight as well. From what I can see so far, BGA is the term widely used by DNAPrint Genomics, who it seems (I could be wrong) to hold a patent on the "cluster analysis" they employ in selling their BGA profiling services. I'll try to find more sources about this (Koenig's Revisiting race is one) to get a better sense who uses the term where and why, but until better sourcing is produced we should leave out discussion of it.Professor marginalia (talk) 23:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

"Race: the current consensus"
Here is a n interesting discussion from 2007: http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/01/race-current-consensus.php#. --Maklinovich (talk) 13:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Not really. Just a blog entry from someone trying to prove the "biological reality" of races. Carries no authority, and absolutely shouldn't be interpreted as representing any sort of consensus.--Ramdrake (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * This is the posting that the blog refers to: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html# --Maklinovich (talk) 00:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't post the blogs here--they're not suitable references for the article, and this isn't a forum to share or discuss them. Thanks. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I would advise adding information on non-western views of the validity of race as a biological category. Refer to: Lieberman L, Kaszycka KA, Martinez Fuentes AJ, Yablonsky L, Kirk RC, Strkalj G, Wang Q, Sun L., 2004. The race concept in six regions: variation without consensus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.235.88 (talk) 01:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I found, "The race concept in six regions: variation without consensus." It states:


 * "Race, once the central concept in physical anthropology worldwide, now varies in the degree of support it receives in different regions. We present the currently available information on the status of the concept in the United States, the Spanish language areas, Poland, Europe, Russia, and China. Rejection of race ranges from high to low with the highest rejection occurring among anthropologists in the United States (and Canada). Rejection of race is moderate in Europe, sizeable in Poland and Cuba, and lowest in Russia and China. A discussion on the scientific and contextual reasons influencing these variations is presented. The tension between scientific evidence and social influences varies from region to region. The methods used in the studies reported here included questionnaires and content analysis. Response rates to questionnaires were often around 50 percent (with exception of the Polish studies). We discuss reasons for the low rates. Although a uniform method of data gathering is desirable, it may not suit scientists working in different traditions of theory and research. We conclude that it is once again timely to discuss the race concept in international meetings where all scientific and political changes occurring throughout the world in recent past decades are taken into account."
 * There is a recommendation above to add non-Western views on the validity of race. The Race article appears to be written from the point of view of American/Canadian anthropologists. --Maklinovich (talk) 00:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

English etmyology and Chinese concept of race
This article is about the concept of race, not the English word. I think including the (doubtful) etymology of the English word is as inappropriate as it would be to include the etymology of 族. See also, where specific etymologies are considered to create a geographic bias, which I believe is especially inappropriate to this article.

I've been doing some reading on the Chinese concept, especially Dikotter 1992. It seems that Dikotter believes the old character 族 can sometimes be translated as race, in the multi-ethnic and essentialist sense, in addition to the more modern 种族. The statement in the article "The word "race", along with many of the ideas now associated with the term, were products of European imperialism and colonization during the age of exploration." is therefore contradicted. Presumably the source of that line is not an expert in Chinese history? I believe some attribution and balance is required here. "A set of folk beliefs took hold that linked inherited physical differences between groups to inherited intellectual, behavioral, and moral qualities" is also a well known feature of Chinese folk belief, but here it sees to be a European phenomenon.

Furthermore the line "Although similar ideas can be found in other cultures,[35] they appear not to have had as much influence upon their social structures as was found in Europe and the parts of the world colonized by Europeans." is dubious. I notice it is sourced to an American genetics journal. The subjective judgement over whether the Chinese or European concept of race had "more influence" on social structures seems a bit odd, especially coming from American bio-scientists. Several wars occurred because of the Chinese national spirit (I give no opinion on whether they were justified). I recommend removing this line. QuintupleTwist (talk) 14:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The history of the concept of Race is obviously linked to the etymology of the word in English and related European languages, and there is a strong precedence to describe etymologies in articles about concepts. I don't think we can remove the notion that the European concept of race is tied closely to colonialism, this viewpoint is simply too well backed by sources to be deleted because a single source on the Chinese concept suggests that a similar concept also evolved in China. There is no evidence that the Chinese concept had any influence on the development of the European concept of race. I also 't see why it is a problem to mention that other cultures have developed their own similar (but not identical) ideas about race. I think we can find better sources for both claims though.·Maunus· ƛ · 14:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the solution is simply to add the adjective "Western" when discussing the race concept here. You are right that se whould not claim that this applies to China, or anywhere else, where there is a scholarly consensus that they have a word that is best translated as race.  But there are many languages which do not have a word or race.  It is just as big a mistake if we were to suggest that every society has its own notion of race, as to suggest that all societies shared one notion of race. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 14:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that adding the adjective "Western" where appropriate would be an improvement. Maybe also attributing the view to "Western scholars". In addition I think adding a sentence about the Chinese concept would be nice. Maunus, you should accept that this article is not just about the European/Western concept. Also I find it a little absurd to draw the source base from Western scholars with little expertise outside the West, and then claiming that because so many of the sources find the concept developing in the West, that it must be an entirely Western concept, despite being shown evidence to the contrary. This is bias. QuintupleTwist (talk) 16:04, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know why I should accept that. It is quite definitely the most common usage of the word race. Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC it is quite evident that this article is about the western concept of race and not anyother concepts in other languages or cultures that might or not be translated in to the English word "race".·Maunus· ƛ · 12:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd still want evidence that there is a Chinese concept of "race." I have no doubt that many Western scholars have translated a certain Chinese word as "race," but often times when they do this it is because they assume race (meaning, their concept of race, meaning, the Western concept of race) is universal. One reason we have this long article is because there is a discourse on race, meaning, lots of Westerners have argued over whether race exists and what the word means.  In Chinese scholarship is there such a discourse on the meaning of a particular Chinese word and how to use it? Slrubenstein   |  Talk 20:37, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you read Dikotter 1992? It should answer your questions. QuintupleTwist (talk) 10:28, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I am looking at dikotter 1992 - in the foreword he says that "In China a discourse on race appeared at the end of the 19th century. The use of racial categories of thinking influenced many chinese thinkiers in the 20th century". In other words he clearly states that China introduced the concept of race later than Europe, and he is not saying that the race is a particularly old concept in china (he says that it built on earlier attitudes about skin color and phenotype, just like the European concept did). I think you have been thikning that we were arguing that only Europeans used race as an oppresive ideology, that is obviously not correct, and possibly it is a good idea to show as Dikotter does that racial ideologies have also been used by non-western colonial powers.·Maunus· ƛ · 12:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the discourse on race appeared at the end of the 19th century, but the concept is much older. In fact the reason a "discourse" did not exist before then is because all Chinese accepted without question the notion that they were a superior race. This article is about the concept. QuintupleTwist (talk) 13:15, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not, the chinese concept no.·Maunus· ƛ · 13:21, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course not just the Chinese concept. The concept as found throughout history. This article is West-centric, to the point of being factually wrong. QuintupleTwist (talk) 13:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it is a good idea to introduce a section about how different cultures have constructed race differently, to make it clear what it means to say that race is socially, and historically, constructed. But this does not mean that the article shouldn't be focused on the particular western ideology, which is the one that is currently being discussed by western academics.

It would be really interesting to make an article about the chinese concept though, I suggest Race in China or History of racial ideologies in China. Also it doesn't really make sense to say that the concept existed before the discourse, and this is not what he is arguing. About the meaning of what you call the concept, he says that there were many different words about differences some of which stress biological rather than sociocultural differences - these words zu, zhong, zulei, minzu, zhongzu, renzhong he all translates as "race". What Dikotter is saying is that these concept were interpreted to align the western racial discourse - they only came to be used as equivalents to race when the racial discourse appeared. Nowhere does he say that the Chinese concept of race is ancient he says that "attitudes about skin color and physical chaacteristics are of great antiquity"(p. 1) If he meant to say that the concept of race was of great antiquity, surely he would have done so. I think you are misconstruing his conclusions. ·Maunus· ƛ · 13:21, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * "Also it doesn't really make sense to say that the concept existed before the discourse"


 * Frankly I'm baffled by this. Did the concept of "tree" exist before the "discourse" on trees? There appears to be a failure in basic common sense logic here. You seem to be concentrating on some concept/discourse dichotomy which is entirely of your own device. It's also astounding that you would say "I think you are misconstruing his conclusions."


 * "Nowhere does he say that the Chinese concept of race is ancient"


 * If you turn to page 2 you'll find "For our purposes, it will suffice to point out that a racial conciousness existed in an embryonic form well before the arrival of Europeans in the nineteenth century."


 * Page 3 "If he is not of our race he is sure to have a different mind" (4 century BC), Dikotter here translates as race, your opinion on whether that is justified is irrelevant.


 * Page 34 "The development of a racial conciousness during the 19th century, however, was due largely to internal developments."


 * Page 35 "Until the 1890's the Chinese discourse of race can be best understood as a process of defensive stereotyping, comparable to European racial thought of the first half of the nineteenth century."


 * Dikotter is clear that the concept developed independently, and not "interpreted to align the western racial discourse", except possibly in the West. I think the problem here, as I've tried to point out, is that you think the Western concept of race is the standard by which all other concepts of race should be judged to "exist". The Chinese concept does not get "aligned" to the Western concept. They developed independently and then merged. It's ludicrous to argue that Chinese did not have a "true" concept of race because it wasn't the same as the Western form, and sheer bias. Note also from page 3 "The dichotomy between culture and race, which has proven to be a viable conceptual tool in analyzing modern attitudes towards outsiders, should be abandoned in our case. It introduces an opposition so far not suppported by historical evidence, and tends to project a modern perception into a remote phase of history", but you argue "About the meaning of what you call the concept, he says that there were many different words about differences some of which stress biological rather than sociocultural differences" I am slightly concerned that your interpretation of the meaning of page 1 is directly frowned upon on page 3.


 * You state "But this does not mean that the article shouldn't be focused on the particular western ideology, which is the one that is currently being discussed by western academics." I could not disagree more. This seems to be bald assertion that you are going to be biased, and ignore anything which could contradict an invented history. QuintupleTwist (talk) 16:10, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * For what it is worth, I am not sure it has been demonstrated that "tree" as it is used by biologists is a universal concept. And if you mean the word "tree" as it is used by regular people, your comparison of tree and race doesn't hold up - people use the word "tree" to refer to objects that are not capable of communicating to us how they view themselves.  People use "race" to refer to other people, who may or may not share that way of viewing themselves, or whose views of themselves may or may not be influenced by the views of others - and we can indeed access how those people identify themselves.  That is one reason why the "discourse" of race is an important object of study.


 * Question: "defensive stereotyping" - can you tell me, defense against what/whom? Slrubenstein  |  Talk 20:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Still a load of..
"Among humans, race has no cladistic significance—all people belong to the same hominid subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens"

No shit?

"For example, birds, dinosaurs, crocodiles, and all descendants (living or extinct) of their most recent common ancestor form a clade.[1] In the terms of biological systematics, a clade is a single "branch" on the "tree of life", a monophyletic group." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monophyly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Making_necessary_assumptions

"Regardless of the extent to which race exists, the word "race" is problematic and may carry negative connotations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Impartial_tone

"As people define and put about different conceptions of race, they actively create contrasting social realities through which racial categorization is achieved in varied ways.[15] In this sense, races are said to be social constructs"

"People", "they", "said to be".. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WTA#Unsupported_attributions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Attributing_and_specifying_biased_statements

And is this FACT (can it be proven/disproven?) or mere OPINION? Does it even belong for that matter?

"Even as the idea of race was becoming a powerful organizing principle in many societies, some observers criticized the concept" What observers? See above.

"Modern debate The lay concept of race does not correspond to the variation that exists in nature. —Joseph L. Graves, Jr.[5]"

That's the whole and entire "modern debate" then? Summarized in one quote by one man?

"Following the horrific consequences of the Nazi eugenics program to achieve and ensure "race purity", racial essentialism lost scientific credibility."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Further, "scientific credibility" is not a point of view. It cannot be lost nor gained due to any horrific eugenics program or lack thereof. See also: "Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as "widespread views", etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

And the list just goes on and on an on.. This is really pathetic. This should be a really short article seeing as it's about a classification and not "social implications of the usage of classification of race", or whatever this classification is based in fact or not. Guess alot of people just can't stop themselves from soapboxing.

"2.Opinion pieces. Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics, may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (i.e. passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced to put entries, especially for current events, in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. Furthermore, Wikipedia authors should strive to write articles that will not quickly become obsolete. However, Wikipedia's sister project Wikinews allows commentaries on its articles." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTSOAPBOX#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox

90.227.176.140 (talk) 01:18, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

NPOV tag
See this edit: The article is thus no longer neutral due to the absence of sourced views. Please explain the deletion of sourced material and views.Miradre (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I call on administrators to invoke the active arbitration remedies that apply to this article and to other articles where this editor (Miradre) is active. ArbCom has already given you back-up in your use of the mop; feel free to clean up the mess. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:35, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * See below. The sources used are completely inadequate and cannot be used here to convey equal weight to their claims to the mainstream.  The "some say" minimized the mainstream view, and granting equal weight to the views of Woodley and Rushton violates WP:NPOV. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:37, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, you ignore Edwards, as well as the view of fields such as anatomy in the US, or non-US anthropologists. This is not NPOV.Miradre (talk) 22:38, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * See below ab out Edwards. For the rest, I'm not "ignoring" anything except the inadequate content that I removed. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * See my sources below.Miradre (talk) 22:53, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

This article is so "American"
It's so obvious that an American wrote this. Call it an Ad Hominen or not, Americans are a hell of a lot less impartial when it comes to this foolish notion of "race". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.143.59 (talk) 15:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad we give such prominence to a boldly unsigned opinion which has absolutely nothing to do with this article. Shall we add a white supremacist's opinion for balance?Tholzel (talk) 13:50, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Changes in lead
The new edits exaggerated the divergence of opinion on this, and only one of the new references cited is noteworthy at all here. Woodley's paper has received no scientific citations that I could find, and even that paper acknowledges he's arguing against the mainstream view. (Is he a PhD?) Jensen and Rushton--be serious. They are not reliable sources on the subject of race classification. And the Štrkalj makes the opposite argument and decries that archaic textbooks are still in use spouting outdated notions race a la Coon et al. These are cherry picked because of what they say (or can be misleadingly represented to say), and not because these are noteworthy or influential in the field of biological classification. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:32, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Professor Marginalia's analysis.·Maunus· ƛ · 22:37, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You did not mention Edwards. Štrkalj may disagree himself but this does not change that every anatomy textbook he looked at accepted races. The lead should not state only mainstream views but also others. Not that only the view of US anthropologists determine mainstream. Also the views of those in other nations are important.Miradre (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Please refer to the reliable sources on the subject before assuming what the scientific consensus is. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:40, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not assume. I cite sources for my claims. Excluding many views, such as that of the whole field of anatomy or non-US anthropologists is not NPOV.Miradre (talk) 22:44, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec)Edwards is one paper that may be relevant here where the measuring genetic differences are discussed but even his influence has been very limited indeed. We don't write articles this way-we don't gather our claims first and then go searching for the idiosyncratic citations to dress them up with.  So if the views of "other nations" are significant, then you need sources or other supporting evidence to show they're significant.  Finding examples of "other views" from here and there isn't sufficient. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Just to make clear. This position is mainly limited to US anthropologists:

Liberman et al. (1992) examined 77 college textbooks in biology and 69 in physical anthropology published between 1932 and 1989. Physical anthropology texts argued that biological races exist until the 1970s, when they began to argue that races do not exist. In contrast, biology textbooks never underwent such a reversal but instead dropped their discussion of race altogether. Morning (2008) looked at high school biology textbooks during the 1952-2002 period and initially found a similar pattern with only 35% directly discussing race in the 1983–92 period from initially 92% doing so. However, this has increased somewhat after this to 43%. More indirect and brief discussions of race in the context of medical disorders have increased from none to 93% of textbooks. In general, the material on race has moved from surface traits to genetics and evolutionary history. The study argues that the textbooks’ fundamental message about the existence of races has changed little.

A 1994 examination of 32 English sport/exercise science textbooks found that 7 (21.9%) claimed that there are biophysical differences due to race that might explain differences in sports performance, 24 (75%) did not mention nor refute the concept, and 1 (3.12%) expressed caution with the idea.

33 health services researchers from differing geographic regions were interviewed in a 2008 study. The researchers recognized the problems with racial and ethnic variables but the majority still believed these variables were necessary and useful.

A 2010 examination of 18 widely used English anatomy textbooks found that every one relied on the race concept. The study gives examples of how the textbooks claim that anatomical features vary between races.

In Poland the race concept was rejected by only 25 percent of anthropologists in 2001, although: "Unlike the U.S. anthropologists, Polish anthropologists tend to regard race as a term without taxonomic value, often as a substitute for population."

Liberman et al. in a 2004 study claimed to "present the currently available information on the status of the concept in the United States, the Spanish language areas, Poland, Europe, Russia, and China. Rejection of race ranges from high to low with the highest rejection occurring among anthropologists in the United States (and Canada). Rejection of race is moderate in Europe, sizeable in Poland and Cuba, and lowest in Russia and China." Methods used in the studies reported included questionnaires and content analysis.

Kaszycka et al. (2009) in 2002-2003 surveyed European anthropologists' opinions toward the biological race concept. Three factors, country of academic education, discipline, and age, were found to be significant in differentiating the replies. Those educated in Western Europe, physical anthropologists, and middle-aged persons rejected race more frequently than those educated in Eastern Europe, people in other branches of science, and those from both younger and older generations."The survey shows that the views of anthropologists on race are sociopolitically (ideologically) influenced and highly dependent on education."


 * Incorrect. This position has been supported by the UNESCO since 1950. It is not just a fad among American anthropologists.·Maunus· ƛ · 22:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * An old decree is not evidence of current scientific consensus. It also stated that immigrants should return home and help build up their countries.Miradre (talk) 22:58, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you being wilfully obstructive here? UNESCO does not issue "decrees" it issues policies and ethical guidelines that are supported by all of the members of the UNESCO council and in this case by an international anthropological workgroup. The view that immigrants should build up their home countries is irrelevant to the view on race and it does not invalidate the statement or as you seem to suggest show that it is outdated. The statement continues to represent the UNESCO consensus untill it is replaced. You don't get to willy nilly reject sources that are so excedingly authoritative just because they don't agree with your pov.·Maunus· ƛ · 01:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The Štrkalj paper maintains that the anatomy textbooks are woefully outdated and thus students of anatomy are being inadequately trained and misinformed, yet you're using it to argue anatomists are reliable sources for this? Professor marginalia (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That is his view. The view of anatomists is obviously different since every textbook accept race as important.Miradre (talk) 23:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "It may be concluded that human biological variation due to ancestry is either not mentioned or is only superficially accounted for in the analysed anatomy textbooks." This doesn't sound "important" to me. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Race is not necessarily defined using ancestry. Neither does the textbooks state that they reject race due to ancestry. Regardless, every textbook accept race as important in anatomy.Miradre (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you the editor who originally cited that article here? If so, where does it say that race is a significant classification system in the field of anatomy?  I see a few laughable quotes taken from a few, like "Africans and Scandinavians tend to be tall, as a result of long legs," that lead me to believe they'd be laughed by professors and students alike in a serious anatomy class.Professor marginalia (talk) 23:21, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "Furthermore, all of them rely on the race concept." Are you an anatomy expert? Miradre (talk) 23:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The claim is the textbooks rely on "race concept" instead of a "ancestral human variation concept". It doesn't claim that this is because anatomists think it's "important".  I'm not an anatomy expert but even I know that to treat all Africans as a group, you will find yourself with both the world's shortest and some of its tallest people well represented there. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So what is your point, anatomists do not accept AAA's decree regarding race. Unless you are an anatomy expert you are hardly qualified to judge the accuracy of an anatomy textbook. Especially from a quote taken from context. Most likely, if you could read the context, Africans is taken in a US context. A US anatomy textbook likely mostly uses studies done on US subject of various ancestral origins.Miradre (talk) 00:29, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, please explain why Rushton and Jensen would not be acceptable for the last part of this statement: "Some discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits, while others argue that racial explanations are important." They certainly argue that.Miradre (talk) 01:10, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Incidentally the UNESCO statement on race is foundational for the UN declaration of human rights. The human rights convention is about as mainstream as anything it starts by saying "all humans are created equal".·Maunus· ƛ · 01:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The 1978 UNESCO statement is also the backbone of UNESCO's current strategy against racism and xenophobia found here and UNESCo's position regarding the recent developments in genetics can be read here Universal Declaration on the Human Genome and Human Rights. This is as mainstream as it gets. Arguing that UNESCO is not mainstream is simply amazing.·Maunus· ƛ · 01:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So is the part of the UNESCO statement stating that immigrants should return home and build up their countries also mainstream?Miradre (talk) 01:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think I can be expected to dignify such a comment with a response. You are merely misrepresenting the statement.·Maunus· ƛ · 01:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Not at all. From the 1978 update: ""Population groups of foreign origin, particularly migrant workers and their families who contribute to the development of the host country, should benefit from appropriate measures designed to afford them security and respect for their dignity and cultural values and to facilitate their adaptation to the host environment and their professional advancement with a view to their subsequent reintegration in their country of origin and their contribution to its development; steps should be taken to make it possible for their children to be taught their mother tongue."Miradre (talk) 01:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This is ludicrous. You cannot discredit UNESCO and the UN by misinterpreting a quote about something else- that is a quote about how states should treat immigrants in their territory, and it is obviously still valid. If UNESCO is not representative of the mainstream than nothing is. I am going to file an RfC about this issue to get wide community input and I am not going to attempt to collaborate more with you. It is pointless, as you apparently will stoop to any level logical fallacies in order to avoid adressing substantial arguments. I will also be filing an ArbCom Enforcement request.·Maunus· ƛ · 01:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The UNESCO statement can be found here: . It is unfortunate if you do not want to discuss anymore since previously you have given concrete criticisms which has improved other articles.Miradre (talk) 02:04, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * @Miradre-I am not challenging the anatomy textbooks. The source you've cited did.  And are you suggesting that this anatomy textbook looks upon African Americans and Scandinavian Americans as having their own separate race classifications?  The anatomy text can be found through a google search.  In its over 900 pages but a single paragraph refers to anything about "race", and the entirety of it is quoted in the article you cited-where it is ridiculed.  We cannot use that source or the original one you cited to make broad claims about what anatomists think about race classifications- to do so is WP:SYNTH which is not allowed on wp.  We must stick to what sources say, straightforwardly, and not mine them for any raw materials we might use to construct an alternative narrative.  As to the Rushton/Jensen cite, sorry-that's not enough to lend their view equal weight as was done there in the intro.  NPOV is not "all sides get equal weight".  It's "wikipedia doesn't tip the scales".  And there is no way that these outliers, Rushton and Jensen, merit equal weight for their views with the scientific establishment there. Professor marginalia (talk) 08:00, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If you dislike that particular anatomy textbook there are 17 others. According the study every widely used anatomy textbook examined used the "race concept". Not just one of them but all. As noted above this is not the only area that does not accept the American Anthropological Association's decree that races do not exist. See here again: Race (classification of humans). Even anthropologists in many of non-US nations studied accept that races exist. These are not fringe views. Neither are Rushton and Jensen fringe views. According the only poll ever done on IQ experts they represent the dominant view: The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book).Miradre (talk) 11:01, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Page number or quote please from that book where it says IQ experts were polled about their support of Jensen and Rushton's views. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Snyderman/Rothman did not adress the question of race but of IQ. They showed that 45% of the respondents believed the IQ gap to be caused by genetic AND environmental causes - with no distinction of weight between the two causes. 45% is not a majority. The study also surveyed only 1000 American psychologists. This does not trump official statements by UNESCO, APA, AAA, or AAPA as a source. ·Maunus· ƛ · 03:19, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find it directly addressed there either. The main hitch here is WP:UNDUE, and diminishing UNESCO, APA, AAA, and AAPA statements to the "some say" while elevating the Rushton and Jensen example to an equivalent "while others say" is ludicrous.  The original language, loosely paraphrased as "Scientists generally discourage racial explanations" may not be perfect but it does leave sufficient breathing room for the exceptions and dissenters described in later sections.  The "some say yes but some say no" approach lends a false equivalency.  Professor marginalia (talk) 04:55, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So we have significant groups of varying sizes among IQ experts, anatomists, sports/exercise scientists, health service researchers, biologists, medical researchers, and non-US anthropologists who think racial explanations are important. So it seems seems fair to say "while others argue that racial explanations are important". APA has not denied that races exist or are important to study. In fact, their 1996 report "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns" explicitly state that racial differences on intelligence exist, are significant, and should be studied. UNESCO's 33 years old statement is not evidence for what the mainstream view is unless one also thinks that immigrants should return home and help build up their countries is also the mainstream view.Miradre (talk) 05:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The goal post keeps moving further afield from the challenged cites. There is no claim on planet Earth that can't be neutralized with a "while others argue", and it serves no purpose here to disguise a "while this wikipedian argues" with cited examples.  We don't launch claims.  Sources do.  We don't.  So we can't use "examples" to backup new claims.  Sources do.  We don't.  We're a tertiary source.  Therefore "significance" is seldom assumed from examples, it has to be demonstrated (as in, since when did sports scientists qualify as the go-to guys for what is a valid race classification and what isn't?)
 * How much of the confusion here is really an extension of the confusion or ambiguity of the topic itself? That's what I'd like to see clarified much, much better.  Is this article about the question of biological "race" classification?  Or socio/ethnic/political/self-reported classifications?  The one-size-fits-all article is leading to far too much fine print qualifiers to accurately represent, which leaves too much opportunity for misinterpretation of sourced claims, and conflations of sourced claims from individuals who, in fact, hold completely contrary definitions of "race". Professor marginalia (talk) 06:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no reason that the American Anthropological Association's decree should be the final word on race. To claim, as the article currently does, that "Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolets and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits", is simply factually incorrect. Significant groups among IQ experts, psychologists, anatomists, medical researchers, health service researchers, biologists, and non-US anthropologists are also scientists and they think racial explanations are important as demonstrated above with sources. They do not "discourage" racial explanations.Miradre (talk) 09:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Regarding the Snyderman study, here is a graph: Snyderman-rothman.png Miradre (talk) 09:07, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * This is going nowhere. This chart does not show us what IQ experts, science editors or journalists know or think they know about race classification. Professor marginalia (talk) 15:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed, they were not asked about that. We have presented Miradre with ample evidence which he has rejected on a spurious basis. This is not a discussion anymore it is just contradiction, wilfull obfuscation and denial of overwhelming evidence. I lean towards thinking that Miradre is simply trolling at this point and that continued discussion with him is futile.·Maunus· ƛ · 15:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

This is the classic propagandist's put-down. Whenever you guys clearly lose an argument, you return to the claim that "this guy is trolling." When six valid points are made, you disparage a point not made. And on and on. It is clear as long as you are in control of this site, no one is going to be allowed to add the opinion held by a large number of geneticists, that racial classification of humans is a valid (not "social) construct. Allowing the fair listing of such contrary opinion held by experts in the field is exactly what Wikipedia is supposed to encourage. Tholzel (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The text currently states that scientists "generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits." A shown, there are lots of scientist, not just IQ experts, who do think racial explanations are important. But if you do not see further discussion as meaningful, then just let us agree on disagreeing and leave it at that.Miradre (talk) 15:46, 11 March 2011 (UTC)