Talk:Races of Bas-Lag

Scabmettlers
I think scabmettlers should be classified as humanoids. Thoughts?

A few issues
Good article! I made a couple of changes; it referred to the scabmettlers armour as 'metallic' (I don't think this was true: their armour was more like very tough scab-material or leather than like metal), and did not point out that their blood does not form into armour unless they sculpt it, so I have added this. I also added the fact that the anophelii males feed on plant juice, as with real mosquitoes.

I have a couple of questions: the article describes the garuda as resembling humanoid vultures, but I was under the impression in the novels that they were supposed to resemble humanoid desert-eagles? Also, was 'anophelii' as a species name capitalized in the novels, as it is here? I'm pretty certain it wasn't (in fact, I don't think any of the races are capitalized, much as with 'human'). I don't have a copy of the book at the moment, so I'd be grateful to anyone who could check this.

Also, there was a llorgis in PSS, living as a tramp in the streets around The Glasshouse. Here it is described as being 'lumbering' and 'barrel-chested'. The only adjective so far applied to gessin has been 'massive', which made me think they may possibly be some sort of whale people, although that is entirely guesswork.

I really feel 'Daemons' should come under 'Deities'. They are not a conventional species; although Miéville tries to play down their supernatural elements to make them appear more ordinary and understandable, they are still an extra-demnsional race with unscientific powers.

The entry for the stiltspear describes them as being like stick insects; I'm almost certain they are described as cat-like in the novels, with their most unusual feature being their star-like spread of claws which can close into a single, pointed spear.

And shouldn't there be an entry for 'Vampir' on this page? I am aware that strictly speaking they are not a race, but their altered physicality, and their unique culture in High Cromlech leads me to believe they could be justified as a race (perhaps with a note)

I would also like to propose the following sentient species which have been mentioned in passing:

Frost Crab

Goblin Shark

Although I'd understand if people disagree! We don't know a lot about them.

and maybe

Cetaceans (seeing as they appear to be confirmed as sentient on at least two occasions)

And maybe a section on elementals?

Salinae

Fulmen

Undine

I can't remember any more. But as they're sentient, perhaps they should go on the page? Razstar 18:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, first of all, you were dead on with the diet of the anophelii and the detail about the scabmettler's armor. The garuda are likened to giant birds of prey in the novels, with Mieville leaving their discriptions to a minimum. However I believe that Isaac Grimnebulin calls Yagharek an ol' buzzard, which probably is where the vulture discription comes from. Again you are right that the names of the individual races are not capitalized. The only capitilization that comes to my mind concerning a race is the fReemade, which aren't really a race, but more of a faction.

The llorgiss and gessin are barely described in the books, yet seem common enough to appear more than once in all the books. You'd think that Mieville could at least spare a sentence or two to describe them instead of leaving them as esoteric words in a sentence.


 * In an interview between China Mieville and Wolfgang Baur presented in Dragon Magazine, Mieville says "I always felt a huge tug toward the xorn, and also the umber hulk". The description of the llorgiss presented Perdido Street Station, somewhat matches that of the xorn.


 * Dragon 352, Runagate Rampant, page 20.


 * Xorn
 * Deshelm (talk) 03:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Daemons in Perdido Street Station are presented as a race, and are treated as such by the government of New Crobuzon. Therefore I would have to object to a move to deities section. I would, however, like to be enlightened what unscientific powers they possess.

I think the cat-like reference for the stiltspear had to do with how they moved through the swamps, not with their appearance, but I could be wrong.

I agree that Vampir deserve their own section even though they are still basically human. But if the Remade can have their own section the vampir should. Also probably the ab-dead of High Cromlech deserve a mentioning.

I believe that the frost crabs were referenced as philosophers with shells, or something to that effect. I think this was a metaphor, not a direct suggestion of sentience. As with the goblin sharks, I can't remember any mention of them as being sentient, maybe I've forgotten.

Cetaceans, at least dolphins as with the case of Bastard John, certainly seem to be sentient. I think they deserve a section.

Lastly, in the case of elementals I struggle to remember if they were presented as sentient. My impression was that they were sort of mindless automatons that molded to their master's bidding. Deyyaz [ Talk 04:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I added the vampir and thanati. I'm doing this from memory and brief descriptions in the Bas-Lag article, so I may have details wrong. Kalkin 02:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Constructs
Someone add info on constructs? - Tredanse 02:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Constructs aren't a race, but technology, I don't think they should be included on this page. However, maybe a mentioning in the technology section of the Bas-Lag page is in order.Deyyaz 03:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, they're certainly sentient. Even though they aren't a bilogical race, I think there should be a little note about them somewhere here, perhaps then with a link to the section you mentioned on the Bas-Lag page. - Tredanse 03:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. However, I believe the sentience of the constructs was presented in Perdido Street Station as a phenomenon that only affected a certain number of the machines, certainly not all of them. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the constructs themselves were intelligent but instead were controlled by the Construct Council, by sort of a hive mind. So I believe that the Council definitely deserves mentioning in the article, not constructs themselves presented as a sentient race. Deyyaz 03:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Possibly then the section titled "Deities and other mysterious creatures" should be retitled so that the Construct Council can also be included? Only I don't know what that title would be.. - Tredanse 05:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The current title might be fine since the Construct Council had a considerable religious following. I think it might fit under the deity label Deyyaz 17:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Weaver
I'm not sure who wrote the section on weavers... I was just wondering though, do we know if there's more than one Weaver? I was under the impression (I could be wrong) that there was only one.

I believe there is more than one. PSS refers to Weavers fighting one another over aesthetic disagreements and humans always say "a" weaver rather than "the" weaver. Also Isaac sees an alleged weavers claw at the circus suggesting more than one. Though the weavers in PSS & IC may be the same one the characters certainly believe in multiple weavers Lostsocks 17:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

There are definitely multiple Weavers - when Isaac and co are transported by the Weaver in PSS, they witness many other Weavers crawling about the 'worldweb' --Razstar 17:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Deities Etc
Should we detail the various gods/religions of Bas-Lag here as well as the various godlike entites (CC, Avanc, Weaver etc) The books only allude to their existence but they make up an interesting part of the Bas-Lag universe. If not, where perhaps would be more suitable? Lostsocks 17:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a very good question. Is it ever implied that the gods worshipped in Bas-Lag actually exist as physical beings? If this is the case then I would have no objection to them being included on this page. However, an explanation of each religion e.g. Godmech Cogs, should either be covered in the Bas-Lag article or in its own article. Deyyaz [ Talk 23:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

major/minor races
I can't understand the rationale behind the division into major/minor races, or the method of dividing them. Why, for example, are the Grindylow and the Scabmettlers minor, while the Cray and Anophelii are major? Kalkin 23:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe the reasoning for having the Cray as a major race is the fact that they seem to be fairly ubiquitous, being common in both Armada and the outlying ports of New Crobuzon, plus Salkrikaltor. However, I don't think that the Anophelii should be designated as a major race since they are only confined to one island and are hardly a common sight in the rest of the Bas-Lag books Deyyaz [ Talk 02:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Makes sense, sort of. But if we're defining 'major' by geographical spread or population size rather than by place in the books, the kepri and the garuda are questionably major, because the kepri, iirc, are extinct in their homeland and now confined to New Crobuzon, while the garuda are confined largely to a single, sparsely-populated desert area.  Neither seems to be more 'major' by this definition than the grindylow or stiltspear striders.
 * It seems to me the easy solution is just to group them together, and get rid of the major/minor distinction. Is there a reason why it is important?  I'll allow some time for comment, but if no one comes up with something I'll make the change. Kalkin 03:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not completely true as the khepri are also a common sight in Armada and it is suggested that they are wide spread throughout Bas-Lag as a result the mass migration from their home continent. It is said that Armada intercepted Mercy Ships which suggests all the khepri did not end up in New Crobuzon. Also with the garuda, I believe that it said in the book that their are settlements of Garuda in the Cactacae city of Shankell which suggests that the garuda are not not confined to their desert homeland. Although I'm not opposed to changing this article, I do believe that their needs to be a distinction presented to separate races like human, khepri, cactcae, etc.. from the barely mentioned yet nonetheless present llorgis, gessin, archons, etc...Deyyaz [ Talk 04:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Re the avanc description: what does "nearly mythological" mean? Isn't being mythological kinda like being pregnant: you either are or you aren't?--Preterite 06:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it means, viewed by most (inhabitants of Bas-Lag) as mythological. Perhaps some similar phrase should be substituted. Kalkin 00:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Xenian
Under the human section, I added that non-human sentients are collectively referred to as "xenians". I'm not sure if that's the right place to put it, or maybe even if we should retitle the "other races" section as "xenians", or what. thoughts?

I agree. There should be a section for Xenians, and then there should be a section for Humanoids. There should not be a "minor races" section.Moongoblin 19:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Non-sentient creatures of Bas-Lag
I'd like there to be an article on non-sentient creatures, but I was wondering if it should be a seperate article or incorporated here (or into the Bas Lag article even). There are tons of creatures to mention, the following examples from Iron Council alone: And PSS of course has slake moths. Also, this article already has a few arguably non-sentient species on it... Tredanse (talk) 04:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nashorns - gigantic, two-storey rhinos Remade into war machines with drilling horns, gunnery, etc
 * Ghuls - described as pale, simian and eyeless
 * Vinhogs - buffalo-sized hogs with symbiotic vines growing from under their skin

Palgolak
Nominated Palgolak article for deletion because it's really not needed. Here's the text from that page (the bit that was worth saving) which can be edited into this article once (hopefully) Palgolak is deleted.

''Palgolak is the god of knowledge in China Miéville's fictional universe Bas-Lag, who features in the novel Perdido Street Station. Palgolak is typically depicted as either a human or a Vodyanoi (sort of a fat "Creature from the Black Lagoon"-type humanoid), sitting in a bathtub that floats mystically across the cosmos' infinite dimensions, observing and learning.''

Tredanse (talk) 11:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, most of that is pretty useless too. It could be reduced/altered to something like...
 * Palgolak is the Vodyanoi god of knowledge, also worshipped by other races in Bas-Lag. He is supposed to be omniscient. He is typically depicted as either a human or a Vodyanoi, sitting in a bathtub that floats mystically across the cosmos' infinite dimensions, observing and amassing all knowledge.
 * Tredanse (talk) 11:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)