Talk:Radhanath Swami

Foundations?
I've made some significant changes to this article today. It's great that people have put significant work into it but unless the content is both neutral and encyclopedic then it will eventually be deleted in due course of time. This may sound harsh, but ultimately Wikipedia is not a fan-site. Maybe we can build the page up with facts, anecdotes and information for the future? I've removed some information, which although good reading in one sense was not really suitable for the scope of the article.

Here are some suggestions for future content, please discuss here if you disagree, or have any further ideas:

* Radhanatha Swami's original birth name? Birth year? * Religious background needs expanding * New Vrindavan - needs expanding, but without lengthy stories * The growth of Chowpatty temple (in summary)

Remembering the length of other articles such as A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami I think it's important to keep all of the information as concise and relevant as possible.

Sincere Best Wishes and apologies (for any deletions) ys, GourangaUK 15:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's a link to a small bio on Radhanath Swami RNS

sanyasa initiation
Regarding: "He received sanyasa initiation in 1982 (from Kirtananda dasa),"

GourangaUK, why "Kirtananda dasa?"

(1) Kirtanananda is spelled incorrectly,

(2) Kirtanananda was known as "Swami" in 1982 and for more than a decade after. It is extremely unlikely that Radhanath would have accepted sanyasa initiation from anyone NOT a Swami.

I believe it should read: Kirtanananda Swami. Credit should be given where credit is due.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Sincerely,

Hrishikesh Henrydoktorski (talk) 17:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

--

My apologies for the spelling mistake. I used Kirtanananda dasa as I assumed that was his current title. Obviously he had official Swami status in ISKCON at the time (1982). Regards, Gouranga(UK) (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

--

Somebody keeps removing the link to Kirtananda Swami. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SarahSS1 (talk • contribs) 07:57, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Article has no independent references
There are no independent reliable sources in this article.Ism schism (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

initiation
"There he accepted initiation during February, 1973, [4], becoming one of Prabhupada's disciples (and receiving the name 'Radhanatha dasa')."

I suspect the date of initiation was probably on Gaura Purnima. Can anyone check this out on a Vaishnava calendar? I think it would be nice to include this info on this page, if substantiated. Henry Doktorski (talk) 23:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

promotional hit generation compaign

 * Based on this I suspect there was some truth in this edit  my contain some truth, however I reverted it since it appears to be added by the bot/spam generator.  Wikid as&#169; 11:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

promotional content
A lot of content is promotional and not properly referenced, especially the Celebrities section.User talk:SarahSS1 06 July 2014

Radhanath Swami's full history
There is very little information provided on Radhanath Swami's occupation or primary place of living from his sannyasi initiation in 1981 to the commencement of his role at ISKCON sometime in the 1990's. During this gapage period, covering most of the 1980s, he resided in New Vrindaban, WV, a community headed by Kirtananda Swami, an individual charged or a person of interet in many crimes (including two murder plots, mail and wire fraud, and child abuse).

Is it defamatory to include this information? I understand including it yields accusations of giult by association. But this part of his biography is surely important given that Radhanath Swami is religious clergy since his mentor Kirtananda Swami engaged in criminal activity that would be seen as immorality by most. Please insert your thoughts on Radhanath Swami's whereabouts I n the 1980s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.66.92 (talk) 00:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Please provide evidence based on wp:rs. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2015 (UTC)


 * one piece of evidence is this spoken in court:

"I know Mr. Sheldon, along with other swamis, were saying that the community had to do whatever is necessary to protect the Swami."
 * By this time, there was only 3 swamis in New Vrindavan, this is exposed in this article: http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3382.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.206.102.148 (talk) 05:35, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * (Dharmatma, from Trial transcript, cited by Halasz & Halasz, court reporters, "United States of America, Plaintiff, v. CR 90-87 Keith Gordon Ham, Terry Sheldon, Steven Fitzpatrick, New Vrindaban Community, Inc., Govardhan, Inc., Cathedral of Healing, Inc., Defendants, Before: Honorable Robert R. Merhige, Jr., United States District Judge and a Jury," Day IV (March 14, 1991), Martinsburg, West Virginia, 832-837, 941.)

"Later on after the morning functions, I had a discussion with Kuladri. He was quite disturbed. He mentioned . . . how it shouldn't have been done like that. And that how Radhanath, Hayagriva and Tapahpunja were pushing like crazy for this to happen, and how he had told them not to do it."


 * in http://web.archive.org/web/20051225224731/http://tirthainprison.com/26qualities/26qualities12.html he is first to visit convicted murderer

"When I was first arrested and put in jail, it was Radhanath Swami who first came to see me. He spoke to me in a most kind and compassionate manner, explaining that my life was now completely in Krsna's hands. Speaking with him through the thick security glass, I was ashamed and embarrassed to be in such a predicament. He told me to concentrate on Krsna and nothing else. Only Krsna could help me now. Before leaving he gave me copies of the all-in-one Srimad-bhagavatam, Caitanya-caritamrta, and Bhagavad-gita. Reading these books anew would mark the beginning of my new life in prison, and a new era of consciousness, not as a convict, but as a devotee." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.206.102.148 (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

predecessor
Since he received initiation into sannyasa order via Kirtananda (and remained faithfull to him till the very end), wouldn't it make more sense to mention him as predecssor rather than A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.206.102.148 (talk) 05:47, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Want to add that predecessor is meant as initiating guru, there is no such thing as "predecessor as a disciple" AFAIU; in this context Kirtanananda is predecessor of Radhanath Swami. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.206.102.148 (talk) 14:05, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Radhanath Swami. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141004224428/http://bhaktivedantahospital.com/About%20us to http://www.bhaktivedantahospital.com/about%20us
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080328232050/http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0309/WD22-8363.html to http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0309/WD22-8363.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140829040525/http://drbcshah.com/bhaktivedanta-hospital/ to http://drbcshah.com/bhaktivedanta-hospital/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141004120126/http://bhaktivedantahospital.com/educational-activities to http://www.bhaktivedantahospital.com/educational-activities
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141006193039/http://bhaktivedantahospital.com/HEALTH%20CAMPS to http://www.bhaktivedantahospital.com/HEALTH%20CAMPS
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141005175155/http://bhaktivedantahospital.com/disaster%20relief to http://www.bhaktivedantahospital.com/disaster%20relief

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Incorrect Info in article?
I believe that there is incorrect info where it says, in the "1973-1986: New Vrindaban" section. It says: "On 1 August 1976 Radhanath received second initiation as a brahmana from Prabhupada".

My reasoning is: 1) Radhanath received first (harinama) initiation in 1973. Usually second initiation is given 6 months to 1 year later. 2) I was there (New Vrindaban) in the summer of 1975. Radhanath was a cook and pujari at that time, for which second initiation is required. 3) According to the Disciple Database, there are three "Radhanath das" in ISKCON: one initiated in New Vrindaban in 1973, one in Sweden in 1975 and the third in Philadelphia in 1976. So the footnote referring to Radhanath das getting second initiation from Vegavan Das is probably referring to one of the other two Radhanath das. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.77.172.118 (talk) 19:26, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Murder Allegations
It is my humble opinion that the Murder Allegations section of the Radhanath Swami Wikipedia page should be retained, and not deleted. The editor who previously deleted this section mentioned something that, "a self-published book is not a valid reference." The editor was referring to Henry Doktorski's "Killing For Krishna," a book about the murder conspiracy to assassinate a Hare Krishna devotee, Steven Bryant (Sulochan dasa). Steven Bryant wrote a book, "The Guru Business," which challenged the authority of the ISKCON zonal-acharyas, but especially Kirtanananda Swami, who was Radhanath Swami's direct superior at the time.

Much information has been discovered, including eyewitness testimonies, which directly implicates Radhanath Swami as a PRIMARY leader of the conspiracy to murder Steven Bryant. Henry Doktorski's book, "Killing For Krishna," is certainly a valid reference, as it has been praised by scholars of ISKCON, such as Professor Dr. Alexander Batthyany, the Viktor Frankl Chair for Philosophy and Psychology at the International Academy of Philosophy in the Principality of Liechtenstein, who wrote: "Killing for Krishna—The Danger of Deranged Devotion by Henry Doktorski is a nuanced, intelligent, and impeccably researched work on events and developments which continue to haunt ISKCON to this very day. The author writes from a unique perspective: he has methodically studied the Keith Gordon Ham/Swami Bhaktipada Archive for fifteen years, and as a former inhabitant of the New Vrindaban Community, he is both personal witness and chronologist of most of the events described in this book. Additionally, and in contrast to former accounts of the decline of the New Vrindaban Community, Doktorski refrains from oversimplifying an inherently complex narrative. Rather, he acknowledges ambiguity where appropriate and clarity where it is possible. The outcome, then, is an extremely well written, and important and timely work—and while it is foreseeable that its publication may not be welcome by everyone within ISKCON, one would hope that it nonetheless will be instrumental in opening an honest and unbiased reflection within a movement which so far has been somewhat reluctant to meet up to its past and responsibility."

In addition, Nori Muster, a former ISKCON public relations assistant and the author of "Betrayal of the Spirit" published by the University of Illinois Press, wrote, "Killing for Krishna—The Danger of Deranged Devotion will go a long way to reconcile ISKCON’s most notorious crime, the murder of Sulochan dasa (Steven Bryant). Henry Doktorski bases his treatise on years of research. In the spirit of the biblical quote, 'The truth will set you free,' Killing for Krishna offers ISKCON followers the truth about their organization’s dark history."

Finally, one of the premier scholars of ISKCON, E. Burke Rochford, Jr., Professor of Religion and Sociology at Middlebury College in Middlebury, Vermont, who has written several books about the Hare Krishnas, and dozens of articles published in academic journals, has praised Henry Doktorski's book in a review published in the August 2019 issue of Nova Religio, a peer-reviewed academic journal of religious studies that focuses on New Religious Movements. Rochford noted, "Doktorski thoroughly researches the critical events that led to the murder of Steven Bryant. While the focus is largely on the handful of players involved in the plot, the reader also learns a considerable amount about the history of New Vrindaban and about Kirtanananda’s evolving leadership. At times, the story reads much like a whodunit as Doktorski skillfully reveals how extreme devotion and identification with Kirtanananda led to Bryant’s murder. Most controversially, Doktorski directly implicates Radhanath Swami, a well-known ISKCON guru with thousands of disciples worldwide. In essence, Kirtanananda and his most ardent supporters created a culture of violence at New Vrindaban based on what the author refers to as 'deranged devotion.' . . . New religion researchers will . . . find this a useful book given its focus on charismatic leadership, violence, and the development of one of the most controversial new religious communities from the 1960s era. It also represents the most comprehensive treatment to date of New Vrindaban’s history and this in itself makes Doktorski’s book a worthwhile contribution."

The allegations that Radhanath Swami participated in a highly-publicized murder in 1986 are not unsupported claims, but well documented. We ask Wikipedia to note our request to retain this section.

Removal should be Justified
Please do not delete discussion on the talk page. I am reverting the edit which was made to remove the Murder allegations section. If anyone wants to remove this section, it should be properly justified on the talk page. I'll be requesting administrator attention to this article. Iamrcr (talk) 23:20, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm adding back the murder allegations section as 1) I see no justifiable reason to remove it, as it's properly sourced with personal testimonies from known witnesses to the facts; 2) it was removed by an anonymous IP without any explanation or discussion about the subject on the talk page. If anyone wishes to alter or remove this section, it should be done after a proper consensus is reached among the editors on the talk page. Iamrcr (talk) 23:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If you want to add this information to the article, you have to provide reliable secondary sources which clearly mention Radhanath Swami alleged involvment in the murders.--Gaura79 (talk) 08:51, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

There are seven sources mentioned in this section. They all seem reliable enough for me. If you have issues with any of them, we should discuss them individually on a case by case basis, and then decide what to keep and what to remove from the section, instead of just removing the whole section without any discussion. Iamrcr (talk) 09:30, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

There's even a source that has been published to a peer-reviewed journal. It should definitely stay in the article as it meets all the criteria for Verifiability. Verifiability Iamrcr (talk) 11:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:PRIMARYCARE and WP:BLPSPS. You can't add murder allegations to WP:BLP without providing a secondary source which clearly links Radhanath Swami to the murder.--Gaura79 (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * And yes, as per Wikipedia rules you have to "Discuss the contribution, and the reasons for the contribution, on the article's talk page with the person who reverted your contribution. Don't restore your changes or engage in back-and-forth reverting.--Gaura79 (talk) 16:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * This is the only mention of Radhanath Swami in relation to the murder in the reliable sources: Although not a trained scholar, Doktorski thoroughly researches the critical events that led to the murder of Steven Bryant. While the focus is largely on the handful of players involved in the plot, the reader also learns a considerable amount about the history of New Vrindaban and about Kirtanananda’s evolving leadership. At times, the story reads much like a whodunit as Doktorski skillfully reveals how extreme devotion and identification with Kirtanananda led to Bryant’s murder. Most controversially, Doktorski directly implicates Radhanath Swami, a well-known ISKCON guru with thousands of disciples worldwide.


 * Based on that couple of sentences could be added to the article: "In 2019 Kirtanananda Swami's disciple Henry Doktorski published a book in which he "directly implicates Radhanath Swami" in plotting the murder of Steven Bryant, a former New Vrindavan resident who in the year before his death accused Kirtananda Swami of deviating from ISKCON teachings and of condoning illegal activity." (the second part can be sourced to the NYT article).--Gaura79 (talk) 16:49, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Please check my version, I think it looks fine now, pretty balanced and sourced.--Gaura79 (talk) 17:41, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * There are also some testimonies which were mentioned in the original Murder allegations section ( Jyotirdhama dasa, Tirtha and Janmasthami ), but as these murder allegations are not the only subject of the article, we have to keep it brief, so I think your paragraph is good enough. I'm also happy with the results. I think we have reached a consensus here, so please, this is my humble request to all editors: no more disruptive editing. Iamrcr (talk) 18:09, 7 October 2019 (UTC)


 * This paragraph that speaks about murder allegations against the subject of this article should be deleted for the following reason. There are six inline citations here. Three of them point to websites that are unreliable primary sources, and one points to a self-published book, again an unreliable primary source WP:SELFPUB. Of two other citations, one of them points to a New York Times article that doesn't even mention the name of the subject Radhanath Swami. The only remaining citation that this para is pivoted upon is a book review on a self-published book that appeared in a journal by University of California Press. But even this fails to be a reliable secondary source as per Wikipedia guidelines.


 * "Avoid using book reviews as reliable sources for the topics covered in the book; a book review is intended to be an independent review of the book, the author and related writing issues than being considered a secondary source for the topics covered within the book." WP:SECONDARY Add to this the fact that we are dealing with BOLP."Be especially careful when sourcing content related to living people or medicine." WP:SOURCES


 * With not a single reliable source supporting it, this section on allegations does not belong to Wikipedia as per BOLP policy. "If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." WP:PUBLICFIGURE Wistleblow (talk) 12:22, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Good points, . I've edited the section and now it looks better. I think few more RS should be found to properly source the material in the New Vrindavan section. It shouldn't be difficult, there are plenty of them.--Gaura79 (talk) 12:35, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I see that you have again cited a self-published book "Killing for Krishna". I don't think Wikipedia allows this. "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." WP:SELFPUBLISH (Please note that "Never" is in bold even on the Wikipedia policy page, for emphasis.)
 * "Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article." WP:BLPSPS

Neutrality issues
There are a few issues to be solved in this article before we can call it neutral.

The first issue has already been settled: we reached a consensus about how and where the murder allegations against him should be mentioned.

However, one issue remains: Radhanath Swami is seen by several major leaders within ISKCON as someone who has deviated from the philosophy teached by the founder of ISKCON. Specially his book ( Journey Home ) and his food relief programs are very often criticized. The article must register the main arguments of his philosophical opponents inside his own institution.

This transcript from a lecture by Bhakti Vikasa Swami ( starting from page 8 ) seems to be a good starting point. ( The original lecture is available on his website ). Iamrcr (talk) 18:27, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

There's also this response to criticism against Radhanath Swami written by his followers. Iamrcr (talk) 18:35, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 * However, one issue remains: Radhanath Swami is seen by several major leaders within ISKCON as someone who has deviated from the philosophy teached by the founder of ISKCON. - are there any independent reliable sources that back up your claims? I haven't found anything. Unless such sources are found, all these discussions between ISKCON leaders have zero notability and cannot be even mentioned in a Wikipedia article.--Gaura79 (talk) 12:38, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

You can hear it straight from the horse's mouth by clicking on the links I provided. The major leaders themselves have publicly stated to be against his philosophy. But I'm done with this article: it is being edited by people who clearly shouldn't be editing it (i.e. actual followers of the religion and of Radhanath Swami), and you can tell it from the get-go just by looking at their nicknames who usually end with "Das" or feature some other religious reference. Almost all advances in making this article more neutral have been destroyed in the past few months by the religious followers of the author himself (probably by his own PR department). Unless the admins care about the conflict of interest going on in this article, I'm not willing to engage in an edit war. --Iamrcr (talk) 17:29, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Shinn reference
This article contains a lot of primary source claims - such as the claim that Radhanath Sw used to do japa meditation for hours on end, or that he was studying hard, etc. etc. Sure this is very promotional, and yes, his autobiography is the autobiography of an extremely humble and enormously advanced saint who would never self-promote, I guess. But all of this is based on himself being the humble source. The book has been critized for exactly this not too subtle "holier-than-thou" message. Perhaps in order to balance this, there are repeated references to Shinn 1987 and Shin 1989 - but these references are never spelled out, which makes me wonder whether these are real references. If not, I would suggest to clean the article a little, or at least report these many wonderful claims about RS as just that: Claims, or reports, or "in his autobiography, RS reports that ..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acaryadeva (talk • contribs) 10:34, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I've added the 1989 publication by Larry Shinn. In course of his research of ISKCON in the 1980s he interviewed Radhanath Swami. In this interview Radhanath makes many of the same claimes as in his 2010 autobiography. report these many wonderful claims about RS as just that: Claims, or reports, or "in his autobiography, RS reports that ..." - yes, of cause it should be done this way, I've edited article a bit, but there's more work to do.--Gaura79 (talk) 12:40, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

== This is not an entry of a encyclopedia; it is an advertisement which reports every little detail of what Swami did in his youth. But almost nothing on his involvement in criminal acts in New Vrindavan. ==

This entry is extremely verbiose and heavily promotional, yet at the same time neglects anything controversial (such as Radhanath Swami's being one of the few right-hand men of a convicted criminal ashram leader Kirtanananda Swami). Instead, we can read sometime in the 1970ies, Swami ate bread and butter, attended a Jimi Hendrix concert, studied hard, read books on eastern philosophy, had a discussion with Franciscan friars on Jesus, was skinny and "looked like a real hermit". If all of these 1st hand accounts are allowed in the article, othe accouts - many of them - which give witness to Swami's involvement in the murder of Sulochana dasa should be allowed, too. I fear that few entries on Wikipedia are as much lacking balance as this one here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acaryadeva (talk • contribs) 20:16, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * This page really does read as something written by a religious devotee with major POV issues. I think a serious cut-down is appropriate here. Maneesh (talk) 14:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)